Exalted for the Lawful or Chaotic?

[CRtwenty]

So there's the exalted status for really Good characters and vile for really Evil ones but is there a similar status for the really Lawful and Chaotic? If not does anybody have any ideas on how such a status could work and what benefits it could provide?

[OldTrees1]

WotC did not print anything on that topic. (Unless you consider the alignment restrictions for Incarnates to be NG Exalted, NE Vile, LN ___ and CN ___)


I would give LN extreme ways of taking 10s

[Gemini476]

Technically Abyssal Heritor feats work a bit like Exalted/Vile feats in that they require you to be Chaotic (well, after a while at least.) AH feats are more Chaotic Evil inclined, though, on account of being related to the Abyss.

The technical terms would be Axiomatic/Anarchic for Law/Chaos, but I not sure if there's anything on that specifically. Google tells me that there might be some Anarchic feats in a dragon magazine issue, though.

[hamishspence]

I think Complete Warrior had an "Anarchic Strike" feat somewhere.

[beowulf_gr]

If Exalted is ultra good then I guess the equivalent for ultra lawful is being a bot...

[Gemini476]

I think Complete Warrior had an "Anarchic Strike" feat somewhere.

Yeah, but it's strictly worse than the PGtF one. Even if the second is a somewhat bad Epic feat.

Dragon #326 seems to have some Anarchic feats. Chaos Music is basically Practiced Spellcaster for bardic music, for instance. I'm sure that Bardsaders love that feat.

I can't find any [Axiomatic] feats, though. What a shame.

[Red Fel]

If Exalted is ultra good then I guess the equivalent for ultra lawful is being a bot...

This is kind of the point. It's possible to be so Good you're saintly - that's Exalted, gooder-than-Good. It's also possible to be so depraved you're a true monster - that's Vile, eviler-than-Evil.

But to be wholly lawer-than-Law, you'd have to be an automoton. To be chaoser-than-Chaos, you'd have to be madder than the maddest Slaad. That borders on unplayable. Sure, we could hash out the mechanics of what you can accomplish, but the question is how you could even play such a concept.

[hamishspence]

Interestingly, while "so good you lose your Special Powers if you ever commit an Evil act" was heavily emphasised in BoED, BoVD didn't say anything about Vile characters losing Vile feats for committing Good acts.

The closest thing to that, are the Evil Paladin Variants in the SRD and Unearthed Arcana.

[bekeleven]

Interestingly, while "so good you lose your Special Powers if you ever commit an Evil act" was heavily emphasised in BoED, BoVD didn't say anything about Vile characters losing Vile feats for committing Good acts.

The closest thing to that, are the Evil Paladin Variants in the SRD and Unearthed Arcana.
Good has higher standards. One of the reasons that antipaladins are unplayable as written, really.

Also, evil non-clerics can have a field day casting good spells, which is point for evil on the CharOp scene.

[Rhynn]

But to be wholly lawer-than-Law, you'd have to be an automoton. To be chaoser-than-Chaos, you'd have to be madder than the maddest Slaad. That borders on unplayable. Sure, we could hash out the mechanics of what you can accomplish, but the question is how you could even play such a concept.

Yeah, there's a fairly strong dichotomy there. Good and Evil are ultimately human concepts (even if in the D&D cosmology they're embodied by nonhuman beings), but Law and Chaos are not, really - they're more like abstract universal concepts or physical laws or something (Chaos is Change and Entropy, Law is Stasis). They are more explicitly cosmic forces removed from humans.

[Red Fel]

Good has higher standards. One of the reasons that antipaladins are unplayable as written, really.

Also, evil non-clerics can have a field day casting good spells, which is point for evil on the CharOp scene.

I've always found it to be that Good is about actions, while Evil is about intentions. That is, a Good character - truly Good - must avoid performing explicitly Evil acts, even if they have the best of intentions. Conversely, an Evil character may perform Good acts, so long as their motives are evil (I remember one forumite remarking on his villain who opened orphanages and schools, in order to indoctrinate and train an entire generation of future minions).

Hence, an Exalted character loses their status if they ever perform Evil. Vile characters can perform Good acts - their corrupt patrons probably derive a certain satisfaction from that perversion - so long as they remain true to their Evil principles at the end of the day.

Tl;dr: Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.

Back on point:

Yeah, there's a fairly strong dichotomy there. Good and Evil are ultimately human concepts (even if in the D&D cosmology they're embodied by nonhuman beings), but Law and Chaos are not, really - they're more like abstract universal concepts or physical laws or something (Chaos is Change and Entropy, Law is Stasis). They are more explicitly cosmic forces removed from humans.

This. Admittedly, in D&D, Good and Evil are in fact absolutes, and not quite as "human" as they might be in real life. But they are concepts of what you do, as well as how and why you do them - you can do a Good deed in a Good way, an Evil deed in a Good way, a Good deed with Evil motivations, and so forth.

There's not really such thing as a Lawful deed, or Chaotic motivations. It's complicated. I suppose OBEY might be considered a Lawful deed, and I suppose FREEDOM! might be a Chaotic motive, but it's strange. It's kind of alien reasoning. It doesn't quite work, at least to my mind.

[Slipperychicken]

Interestingly, while "so good you lose your Special Powers if you ever commit an Evil act" was heavily emphasised in BoED, BoVD didn't say anything about Vile characters losing Vile feats for committing Good acts.


To be fair, that's even less playable than falling for evil acts.

[Rogue Shadows]

I blame the lack of a decent iconic race. Slaadi just never worked for me as denizens of ultimate Chaos, and Law has had three attempts - modrons, formians, and inevitables - two of which are just variations on "machine men" and one of which is just weird to think of as denizens of ultimate Law (especially since I think the formians are supposed to be from Venus?)

[Rhynn]

This. Admittedly, in D&D, Good and Evil are in fact absolutes, and not quite as "human" as they might be in real life. But they are concepts of what you do, as well as how and why you do them - you can do a Good deed in a Good way, an Evil deed in a Good way, a Good deed with Evil motivations, and so forth.

There are all sorts of possible definitions for Chaotic and Lawful, although the D&D 3E ones aren't very useful.

In AD&D, Lawful alignment means belief in an ordered universe, Chaotic alignment a belief in a random universe. But that's not exactly useful, is it?

In older editions (with one-axis alignment), it gets much more playable and useful, IMO, but also much looser: Lawful is the alignment of order and civilization and, broadly, humanity; Chaotic is the alignment in opposition to Law, destroying civilization and tearing things down. That often puts Chaotics in opposition with PCs, although not by necessity... especially if the PCs aren't very interested in participating in the conflict.

[Clistenes]

I think it would be difficult to fill a book with stuff about only either people who are so obsessed with order that they are barely fit for life (mortal exemplars of LN, think of people with an extreme obsessive compulsive disorder to make everything ordered) or rabidly insane (mortal exemplars of CN), and make that book interesting. You could make a few interesting characters like that, but, a whole book?

[Particle_Man]

You could look at crusader auras (the faith based one of the 9 paths) in Bo9S for a few hints.

I would have liked an expansion on the fey as the Chaos dudes, and maybe bring back the Modrons for the law dudes (I have soft spot for them).

You could also have only LN and CN gods in your campaign, to drive the point home. Interestingly, a Paladin of Wee Jas could fall from grace and become a LE Blackguard without once deviating from her devotion to her goddess. ;)

[Phelix-Mu]

There was another thread about this not too long ago. I argued that there is nothing inherently different about super-Law or super-Chaos; they might be problematic to play, but so are Vile and Exalted characters. Vile characters pretty much are so evil that they often do stuff that is borderline illogical/counterproductive (self-mutilation is pretty dumb unless you have a good form of disguise are a ready reason why your lips have been cut off/teeth sharpened/limbs stretched) just for the sake of being evil (stacking your murder victims' corpses to gain Orcus' attention sounds like a good plan...except for that stack of corpses).

Exalted themed character discussion has been beaten to death on these forums. Both archetypes basically require a DM to be playing ball with the character concept, not gunning for that character or trying to force the player to forfeit abilities due to unavoidable moral conflicts. This is likely to be true with a super-Chaos or super-Law character; if there isn't some understanding from the DM, this is probably not feasible.

It's why these variant rules are in supplements labeled as such. An Exalted/Vile/Anarchic/Axiomatic campaign is governed by moral conflict, unlike the normal campaign, which is largely just flavored and somewhat motivated by morality.

If you search for Axiomatic, Anarchic, and Exalted on this forum, you will likely turn up the earlier thread. Include the name of this site, "gitp," in a google search with a bunch of relevant keywords and you should get something. There was some good discussion on that other thread.

[Clistenes]

You could look at crusader auras (the faith based one of the 9 paths) in Bo9S for a few hints.

I would have liked an expansion on the fey as the Chaos dudes, and maybe bring back the Modrons for the law dudes (I have soft spot for them).

You could also have only LN and CN gods in your campaign, to drive the point home. Interestingly, a Paladin of Wee Jas could fall from grace and become a LE Blackguard without once deviating from her devotion to her goddess. ;)

Yes, but "Exalted" characters are so Good that they are saints and martyrs, able to sacrifice their lives for a stranger without a moment of doubt. "Vile" characters are monster akin to Josef Fritzl, Gilles de Rais, Marc Dutroux...etc.

To be so extremely Chaotic as those other characters are Good or Bad, a mortal exemplar of Chaos would have to be not just chaotic, but completely random and insane. Same for mortal exemplars of Law, they would have to be not just lawful, but virtual flesh robots.

Now, a book that is just about Chaos and Law, and not about extreme examples, yes, that would be good.

[OldTrees1]

To be so extremely Chaotic as those other characters are Good or Bad, a mortal exemplar of Chaos would have to be not just chaotic, but completely random and insane. Same for mortal exemplars of Law, they would have to be not just lawful, but virtual flesh robots.

Now, a book that is just about Chaos and Law, and not about extreme examples, yes, that would be good.

Ooh I like the idea of rules for insane PCs and for robot PCs.
Book of True Sanity
Book of Correct Operation