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elliott20
2007-01-24, 10:47 AM
my friend and I came up with an interesting build to emulate the Kuma character from the Tekken series.

Basically, a monk/druid who uses his shapeshifting into a kungfu fighting bear. (Yes, I know it's probably not the most optimized. But dammit I want my kungfu bear!!)

The problem is when it comes to calculating the damage of his unarmed strikes.

Can the monk still retain his unarmed strike abilities or does he resort to his new forms natural attacks?

I've decided that it should take a hybrid of the two. My logic is this:

1. the monk, while having the physical characteristics of a bear, still retains his training as a martial artist, therefore should retain his unarmed strike ability/damage.

2. however, he does have the physical strength of a bear so his bonus to hit and damage would be adjusted to his new form.

3. this, however, also means he loses the usage of his natural attacks and any benefits those might provide. (i.e. improved grapple and maul if you score hits with his claws.)

not sure if this makes sense or not.

Grizzled Gryphon
2007-01-24, 11:11 AM
Basically, you have it. While you could still use your Monk fighting abilities, you would not gain the natural attacks of the Bear. So, you could either do bludgeoning damage, like a human monk, or you could do the natural attacks of the bear. Now, flurry of blows would work with either. And both would use the higher strength of the bear for hit and damage calculations.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-24, 11:12 AM
A monk-bear would retain his unarmed strikes and the natural attacks of the bear.

Unarmed Strikes can be made with just about any appendage, so your kung fu-bear could still be using claws and bite while kicking with unarmed strikes.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-24, 11:17 AM
If he turns into a large bear that could effect his base unarmed damage.

elliott20
2007-01-24, 11:23 AM
so, technically, can I use my unarmed attacks THEN attack with my natural attacks in the same round with a full round attack?

Ramza00
2007-01-24, 11:23 AM
If he turns into a large bear that could effect his base unarmed damage.

Correct, and I believe Lord_Silvanos is right I just don't have the rules page/ruling infront of me and can't currently search for it before class.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-24, 11:24 AM
Now, flurry of blows would work with either. And both would use the higher strength of the bear for hit and damage calculations.

You cannot use flurry of blows with Natural Weapons. The Monk has to use Unarmed Strikes or special Monk weapons.

Ramza00
2007-01-24, 11:24 AM
so, technically, can I use my unarmed attacks THEN attack with my natural attacks in the same round with a full round attack?

I believe so, and if I recall your natural attacks are done at a -5 penalty for they aren't your primary mode of attack but are secondary attacks.

elliott20
2007-01-24, 11:26 AM
okay, so in short, if I were to cast "magic fang on myself", and then go for my monk attacks first, my claws could come out at a -5, and if both of those hit, proceed with the maul/bite/whatever at a -10, correct?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-24, 11:26 AM
so, technically, can I use my unarmed attacks THEN attack with my natural attacks in the same round with a full round attack?

Yes, but they become secondary attacks and receive the -5 penalty for that (without Multiattack). You also cannot apply more than half of your STR modifier to damage.

Darrin
2007-01-24, 11:28 AM
1. the monk, while having the physical characteristics of a bear, still retains his training as a martial artist, therefore should retain his unarmed strike ability/damage.

2. however, he does have the physical strength of a bear so his bonus to hit and damage would be adjusted to his new form.


This is correct. Also, if your size changes to Large, your unarmed damage would likewise scale up.



3. this, however, also means he loses the usage of his natural attacks and any benefits those might provide. (i.e. improved grapple and maul if you score hits with his claws.)


Actually, if I understand RAW correctly (kinda unlikely, since RAW is inconsistent with combining natural attacks) you still get the bear's natural attacks and can roll for them after your flurry attacks, but at a -5 penalty (they become secondary attacks) on top of the flurry/TWF penalties, if any. If you had the multiattack feat, you could reduce the -5 to -2.

There are many, many other threads on here that go into this, if you feel up to a bit of searching.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-24, 11:34 AM
okay, so in short, if I were to cast "magic fang on myself", and then go for my monk attacks first, my claws could come out at a -5, and if both of those hit, proceed with the maul/bite/whatever at a -10, correct?

Sorry about the confusing quotes and answers, but Darrin sums up the correct statements just above.

Let me just stress that all your Natural Weapon attacks become secondary and each only take a minus 5 penalty (not -10).

elliott20
2007-01-24, 11:39 AM
ahh, okay then. I'll do a little bit of searching.

Grizzled Gryphon
2007-01-24, 12:01 PM
You can use a claw as an off hand weapon for a full attack, at a -5. You cannot mke a full attack with flurry of blows, or your regular monk attacks, and then make attacks with the natural attacks of the bear. Both types of attacks are full attacks.

So, you can make your monk attacks, or the bear attacks, but not both in the same round.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-24, 12:14 PM
You can use a claw as an off hand weapon for a full attack, at a -5. You cannot mke a full attack with flurry of blows, or your regular monk attacks, and then make attacks with the natural attacks of the bear. Both types of attacks are full attacks.

So, you can make your monk attacks, or the bear attacks, but not both in the same round.

Common misconception. Flurry of blows merely requires that you use it as part of a full attack action. As such, as long as you're performing a full attack(ie, didn't move, only attacked, at most a 5' step), you can flurry(and similar things such as Snap Kick, One-Two Punch, even Roundabout Kick, if you scored a Crit), whatever unarmed attacks left, any remaining off-hand weapons, any natural attacks.


Yes, but they become secondary attacks and receive the -5 penalty for that (without Multiattack). You also cannot apply more than half damage.

Should be "Cannot apply more than half Strength modifier to damage.". The distinction is important. :)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-24, 12:21 PM
Should be "Cannot apply more than half Strength modifier to damage.". The distinction is important. :)

Indeed. Maybe I should read what I write the next time :smallyuk:

Thanks for pointing it out. :smallsmile:

Person_Man
2007-01-24, 12:23 PM
Monk 2/Druid X isn't that bad. You lose some spell progression and 2 HD worth of wildshape, but gain Wis to AC and Evasion. You might want to use the Druidic Avenger (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#druidic-avenger) varient, if you don't care about an animal companion and want to boost your combat ability somewhat.

The Bear Warrior PrC also seems to be a natural fit. Even if it would be mechanically weaker, I don't remember Kuma casting spells. You could go Monk 6/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Bear Warrior X to get into it without breaking your Lawful alignment restriction (or the more straitforward Barbarian/Fighter/Bear Warrior)

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-24, 01:55 PM
The Bear Warrior PrC also seems to be a natural fit. Even if it would be mechanically weaker, I don't remember Kuma casting spells. You could go Monk 6/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Bear Warrior X to get into it without breaking your Lawful alignment restriction (or the more straitforward Barbarian/Fighter/Bear Warrior)

Singh Rager is a good Lawful prc that gets Rage but the base attack prerequisite it too high for a monk. Pity it wasn't updated to 3.5.

JaronK
2007-01-24, 03:53 PM
Alright, let's just be clear. I'm currently playing a Monk 1/Druid 8, so I've been through this a few times before.

We're going to use a Brown Bear, out of the Monster Manual, for this example. When making a standard attack (such as at the end of a move, so it takes a standard action) such a character in Bear form may either make the normal attack of a Brown Bear (Claw for 1d8+Str) or the unarmed strike damage of a large monk (also 1d8+8, assuming you've got one level of monk). In either case it's at your full attack bonus, with strength and all that added in.

When making a full attack, a normal Brown Bear (or wildshaped druid) does the following: 2 Claw attacks for 1d8+Str at full attack bonus, and one bite attack at 2d6+Half Strength at -5. A wildshaped druid with a level of monk will get to make normal large monk flurry damage, plus any iterative attacks on that damage, in addition to all the natural attacks, but they're all secondary. Assuming no iterative attacks, that's two flurried attacks doing 1d8+Str at Attack Bonus -2, two claw attacks at 1d8+Half Str at Attack Bonus -7, and one bite attack at 2d6+Half Str at Attack Bonus -7.

Basically, you're just doing normal monk attacks, then adding in all the normal attacks (with any negatives due to flurry) at -5 to hit and half strength added, because they're all now secondary attacks (your primary attacks are your flurry attacks.

One thing that's important to note here is that a normal Druid without any monk can't make iterative attacks with their natural attacks... they just get the standard attack reutine. A Monk/Druid, however, can have iterative attacks with their unarmed strikes, in addition to the natural attack reutine, and that's a very large bonus.

JaronK

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 03:56 PM
Jaron: add in the Multiattack feat for a smaller penalty and you're golden.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-24, 04:09 PM
Also get Monk2 to get Evasion. One more monk level isn't going to kill your casting, and it will drastically increase your survivability once you start running into opponent sorcerers flinging 15d6 Cone of Cold at you. Even a successfull save can hurt badly.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-24, 04:22 PM
Jaron: add in the Multiattack feat for a smaller penalty and you're golden.

Improved Multiattack (Draconomicon and the Epic section of the SRD (still non-epic)) removes the penalty entirely.

Matthew
2007-01-24, 04:44 PM
That Feat can also be found in the SRD: Improved Multi Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMultiattack)

Person_Man
2007-01-24, 04:52 PM
When making a standard attack (such as at the end of a move, so it takes a standard action) such a character in Bear form may either make the normal attack of a Brown Bear (Claw for 1d8+Str) or the unarmed strike damage of a large monk (also 1d8+8, assuming you've got one level of monk).

I believe that you lose your Unarmed Strike when you Wild Shape. When you Wild Shape or take on any other alternate form, you lose the natural weapons of your humanoid form. For example, a Lizardfolk Druid would lose its natural bite and claw attacks, and gain the natural attacks of its new form.

Unarmed attacks are clearly the natural weapons that come from your humanoid form. You can take the Improved Natural Attack feat and apply it to your Unarmed Strike. And in multiple places, its described as punches, kicks, headbutts, elbows, knees, and feet, body parts you may or may not have in your alternate animal form.

Thus, a Monk/Druid that is not in humanoid form cannot make unarmed attacks.

Think about it - do you think that a Monk/Druid in Toad form could make unarmed Monk attacks? I would say no. A Toad doesn't have any appendage capable of making an Unarmed Strike. And more importantly, its not supported anywhere in the rules.

It may seem more plausible that a Monk/Druid in Bear or Ape form might be able to make Unarmed Attacks. But then why doesn't a Lycanthrope retain its Unarmed Strike when in animal form?

The answer is that it doesn't.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-24, 04:56 PM
Unarmed Strikes are NOT Natural Weapons, but the Monk's are treated as such.


A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

That is also the reason that ONLY a Monk (or others with a similar statement) can apply INA to his/her Unarmed Strikes.

Person_Man
2007-01-24, 05:24 PM
Unarmed Strikes are NOT Natural Weapons, but the Monk's are treated as such.

That is also the reason that ONLY a Monk (or others with a similar statement) can apply INA to his/her Unarmed Strikes.

So, are you seriously saying that a Monk/Druid in Whale or Frog form can make unarmed attacks? Because that would be just ridicules.

And I'm not even talking about killing catgirls here. I don't see a single description anywhere in D&D where an animal, or Druid in animal form, or a Lycanthrope in animal form, or any similar monster that has an alternate form, retains its unarmed attacks. Furthermore, it doesn't say anywhere in the text that you retain your unarmed attacks when you take on an alternate form.

TSGames
2007-01-24, 05:28 PM
So, then, does INA+Superior Unarmed strike make the monk class not underpowered now?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 05:30 PM
So, then, does INA+Superior Unarmed strike make the monk class not underpowered now?

No, it unfortunately still does not compensate for the inability to enchant one's weapons and armor.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-24, 05:36 PM
So, are you seriously saying that a Monk/Druid in Whale or Frog form can make unarmed attacks? Because that would be just ridicules.

And I'm not even talking about killing catgirls here. I don't see a single description anywhere in D&D where an animal, or Druid in animal form, or a Lycanthrope in animal form, or any similar monster that has an alternate form, retains its unarmed attacks. Furthermore, it doesn't say anywhere in the text that you retain your unarmed attacks when you take on an alternate form.

I was saying that your assumption was flawed, since an Unarmed Strike is not a Natural Weapon.

If you have the necessary appendage you can make an Unarmed Strike, regardless of form.

Nothing in the rules suggests otherwise.

Starbuck_II
2007-01-24, 10:01 PM
So, are you seriously saying that a Monk/Druid in Whale or Frog form can make unarmed attacks? Because that would be just ridicules.

And I'm not even talking about killing catgirls here. I don't see a single description anywhere in D&D where an animal, or Druid in animal form, or a Lycanthrope in animal form, or any similar monster that has an alternate form, retains its unarmed attacks. Furthermore, it doesn't say anywhere in the text that you retain your unarmed attacks when you take on an alternate form.
Yes, frogs can do unarmed strikes. Won't do more than 1 damage -str but yes. Plus terrible accuracy (str low).

Every living thing can do them (also undead as well as constructs can I think).

Zincorium
2007-01-25, 01:53 AM
So, are you seriously saying that a Monk/Druid in Whale or Frog form can make unarmed attacks? Because that would be just ridicules.

And I'm not even talking about killing catgirls here. I don't see a single description anywhere in D&D where an animal, or Druid in animal form, or a Lycanthrope in animal form, or any similar monster that has an alternate form, retains its unarmed attacks. Furthermore, it doesn't say anywhere in the text that you retain your unarmed attacks when you take on an alternate form.

Actually, name one npc that's been statted out that isn't a monk, but still shows 'unarmed' as an attack. Huh, that's right, they don't, because it's a horrible option for them, and there's no reason to confuse people by putting it there. Anything with simple weapon proficiency has unarmed strikes, they just don't use them. Normally, anyway.

Also, getting head-butted by a whale seems like it would destroy you utterly.

Caelestion
2007-01-25, 05:43 AM
Actually, having Str and Dex scores and an animating consciousness generally indicates that you have an unarmed strike. Unless that consciousness also has natural weapons or has invested in Improved Unarmed Strike, it will still suffer the usual penalties for attacking unarmed. Simple Weapon Proficiency makes no difference in this regard.

JaronK
2007-01-25, 11:50 AM
So, are you seriously saying that a Monk/Druid in Whale or Frog form can make unarmed attacks? Because that would be just ridicules.

And I'm not even talking about killing catgirls here. I don't see a single description anywhere in D&D where an animal, or Druid in animal form, or a Lycanthrope in animal form, or any similar monster that has an alternate form, retains its unarmed attacks. Furthermore, it doesn't say anywhere in the text that you retain your unarmed attacks when you take on an alternate form.

Yes, they absolutely can. In Frog form, such attacks would be pathetic... assume they're kicking with those back legs a frog has, which still isn't impressive. A whale is likely ramming opponents and hitting with their back fins, which is still pretty decent.

Everyone can make unarmed strikes... there's rules for doing so in the PHB. That said, if you don't have improved unarmed strike, but do have natural attacks, there's no reason to do so, so it's not found in the rules. It's just like the fact that anyone can bull rush or make trip attempts... but without a rule helping that out (such as Improved Trip or something) there's no point in the monster doing it, so it's not found in the stat block.

The monk's ability to flurry with unarmed strike attacks can act as a natural weapon for enchanting, but in reality it's a class feature of the monk, and class features do not go away when you Wild Shape. Thus, a monk in any form, be it human or anthropomorphic baleen whale or even toad, can make his usual unarmed attacks following all the normal class given rules for a monk. That's how the rules work. It's up to the players to say how that's happening... flipper strikes for a whale, claw attacks for a dire wolf, or psuedopod attacks if somehow the monk turns into an ooze... whatever.

That said, I wouldn't drop another level for evasion, for the most part. One caster level lost hurts badly enough. No need to lose another. If you're going to though, there's a varient monk in Unearthed Arcana that gets Improved Trip as the level 2 bonus feat (I don't remember what the level 1 feat is) and that's damn useful for a Druid who can turn into a wolf...

JaronK

elliott20
2007-01-25, 11:59 AM
well, the point of this build is not so that I can build a caster fighting bear, it's so that I have a kungfu bear. It's not really the most effective build, I must admit. But dammit it's going to be fun!

JaronK
2007-01-25, 12:23 PM
Actually, if you do it as Monk 1/Druid X, it's going to be very very effective... a far better warrior than any straight class Fighter or Monk.

JaronK

elliott20
2007-01-25, 12:31 PM
really? that's just... so sad....

Ramza00
2007-01-25, 12:43 PM
really? that's just... so sad....
You are telling me :smallwink:

Caelestion
2007-01-25, 01:56 PM
So go with Druid 1/Monk X (maybe even Drd 1/Ftr 4/Mnk X), provided you use PHBII's Shapeshifting option. That allows you to be a wolf or similar at will right from level 1.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-25, 01:57 PM
That said, I wouldn't drop another level for evasion, for the most part. One caster level lost hurts badly enough. No need to lose another. If you're going to though, there's a varient monk in Unearthed Arcana that gets Improved Trip as the level 2 bonus feat (I don't remember what the level 1 feat is) and that's damn useful for a Druid who can turn into a wolf...

JaronK

Don't wolves and the like already get Improved Trip for free anyway?

Caelestion
2007-01-25, 01:58 PM
Yes, but I don't think a Druid-wolf gets it for free.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-25, 02:03 PM
Don't wolves and the like already get Improved Trip for free anyway?

No, they get the Trip (ex) special ability that allows them to make a trip attempt as a free action on a successful hit.
They would still gain +4 to their trip attempt if they took Improved Trip.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-25, 02:04 PM
Yes, but I don't think a Druid-wolf gets it for free.

It is a special attack so it comes with the Wolf-shape

Caelestion
2007-01-25, 02:06 PM
It also includes not provoking AoOs for tripping, not needing a touch attack and not being tripped back if they fail. That's as good as or better than the actual feat, with the exception of the +4 bonus.

Edit: Regarding the Druid-wolf, that's fair enough, but it's still inconsistent. Why doesn't a Druid-wolf get lowlight vision (a purely physical ability) but they do get the Trip ability (something learnt)?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-25, 02:22 PM
It also includes not provoking AoOs for tripping, not needing a touch attack and not being tripped back if they fail. That's as good as or better than the actual feat, with the exception of the +4 bonus.


Yes it is much better, but my point was just that it could still be worthwhile taking the feat.



Edit: Regarding the Druid-wolf, that's fair enough, but it's still inconsistent. Why doesn't a Druid-wolf get lowlight vision (a purely physical ability) but they do get the Trip ability (something learnt)?


It is even worse in bat-shape :smalltongue:

Caelestion
2007-01-25, 02:45 PM
Wild shape is just downright buggered, well overpowered in some regards and then massively lacking in others...

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-25, 02:50 PM
Regarding the Druid-wolf, that's fair enough, but it's still inconsistent. Why doesn't a Druid-wolf get lowlight vision (a purely physical ability) but they do get the Trip ability (something learnt)?

Actually, I think the Trip is less "learned" and more a function of wolves generally biting the ankles of whatever they attack. Just kind of odd that regular dogs don't get that. Another canid that lacks it is the Hellhound. Oddly a Shadow Mastiff gets it. Looks like the housecat still wins.:smallbiggrin:

JaronK
2007-01-25, 04:27 PM
The trip ability of a wolf is different from Improved Trip, and goes great with it. The combination means that if a druid-wolf with Improved Trip hits with his bite attack (sadly, he only gets one per round, regardless of BAB, see lack of iterative attacks with natural attacks above), he gets a free trip attempt at an additional +4, and if that succeeds, he gets another free attack (though it ends there, you can't trip someone who's already down). Nasty combo, and it scales up as the druid levels, from Wolf to Dire Wolf to Legendary Wolf.

You pretty much want as much druid as you can... adding four fighter levels is an awful idea. The more druid you've got, the better your forms (yay Legendary Wolf!) and the better your self buffs are... a Legendary Ape weilding a flurrying quarterstaff that has Spikes and Shillelegh cast on it is all kinds of scary. It's a shame Animal Growth no longer works on you in ape form though...

JaronK

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-26, 01:20 AM
The trip ability of a wolf is different from Improved Trip, and goes great with it. The combination means that if a druid-wolf with Improved Trip hits with his bite attack (sadly, he only gets one per round, regardless of BAB, see lack of iterative attacks with natural attacks above), he gets a free trip attempt at an additional +4, and if that succeeds, he gets another free attack (though it ends there, you can't trip someone who's already down). Nasty combo, and it scales up as the druid levels, from Wolf to Dire Wolf to Legendary Wolf.

This is why you ramp up your Dex, persistent Cat's Grace, and take Combat Reflexes. All around tripping FTW. You can even use your Bite as a Disarm(or turn the free attack into a Disarm), so that they wind up both down and disarmed.

JaronK
2007-01-26, 02:12 AM
Ramp up your dex? You're a druid. Your dex is set by your wild shape.

JaronK

MaN
2007-01-26, 09:07 AM
so, technically, can I use my unarmed attacks THEN attack with my natural attacks in the same round with a full round attack?
According to the D&D FAQ, no. A creature may substitute a weapon attack (or unarmed strike) for a natural attack. In your specific case, as a brown bear, you could do any one of the following:

Standard attacks:
*Claw +11 melee (1d8+8)
*Unarmed Strike (monk BAB and monk unarmed strike damage)

Full attacks:
*Claw, claw, bite
*UaS, claw, bite
*UaS, UaS, bite
*Claw, claw, UaS
*UaS, claw, UaS
*UaS, UaS, UaS
*Flurry of Blows (using monk unarmed strikes)


The flurry of blows (again according to the D&D FAQ) may only be done using the monk's unarmed strikes/monk weapons. The only way natural attacks can be made in addition to a flurry of blows is if the creature's MM entry lists both manufactured and natural weapons as part of its full attack routine. In these cases the monk may substitute the flurry in place of the manufactured weapon attacks then follow up by making the natural attacks listed.
So, in your specific example of being in bear form, you could not flurry of blows and make natural attacks as part of the same full attack action.

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 09:47 AM
Of course, JaronK, if you're a shapeshifting Druid, your Dex is your inborn one :)

HotSake
2007-01-26, 12:05 PM
According to the D&D FAQ, no. A creature may substitute a weapon attack (or unarmed strike) for a natural attack. In your specific case, as a brown bear, you could do any one of the following:

Standard attacks:
*Claw +11 melee (1d8+8)
*Unarmed Strike (monk BAB and monk unarmed strike damage)

Full attacks:
*Claw, claw, bite
*UaS, claw, bite
*UaS, UaS, bite
*Claw, claw, UaS
*UaS, claw, UaS
*UaS, UaS, UaS
*Flurry of Blows (using monk unarmed strikes)


The flurry of blows (again according to the D&D FAQ) may only be done using the monk's unarmed strikes/monk weapons. The only way natural attacks can be made in addition to a flurry of blows is if the creature's MM entry lists both manufactured and natural weapons as part of its full attack routine. In these cases the monk may substitute the flurry in place of the manufactured weapon attacks then follow up by making the natural attacks listed.
So, in your specific example of being in bear form, you could not flurry of blows and make natural attacks as part of the same full attack action.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Wait, let me rephrase that: You're wrong. Here's a complete quote from the FAQ regarding monks with natural weapons. The example is a centaur, but it's valid for any race with natural attacks, including bears:


Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s an 8th-level monk.
Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0
unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2
hooves?
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +6 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +8/+8/+3. He can add two hoof
attacks at +1/+1 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry).

MaN
2007-01-27, 06:00 AM
Uh, okay. So where exactly was I wrong?

JaronK
2007-01-27, 06:08 AM
Read carefully. It's pretty clear where you went wrong. It says monks can flurry with their unarmed strikes in addition to all natural attacks.

"The only way natural attacks can be made in addition to a flurry of blows is if the creature's MM entry lists both manufactured and natural weapons as part of its full attack routine. "

Is in direct contradiction to

"The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry."

The FAQ just also tells you that if you do use manufactured weapons, your flurry strikes take the place of those attacks.

JaronK

Dark
2007-01-27, 08:58 AM
But the FAQ answer starts with


If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same
(emphasis mine)

It's followed up by a "Since" with the same meaning. I really don't think the next sentence suddenly discards those qualifiers.