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ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 12:16 PM
Howdy howdy, kids!

I'm looking at making a werewolf character, and I was thinking a fighter who focuses on unarmed strikes. I was thinking that I could take feats that would help me as both a werewolf and a human in the fight. I don't have any specifics on level yet, but I don't think I'll need to for the basics.

So, what should I look at? Improved Unarmed and Natural strike feats, etc?

Telonius
2007-01-24, 12:35 PM
A two-level dip in Monk comes to mind. It'll help out your saves and give you some feats that you would've taken anyway as Fighter bonus feats. You lose one point in BAB, but it's worth it for the increase to 1d6's instead of 1d4's on unarmed attacks. (It'll also grant you Evasion, but you might not be using that so often unless you have a mithral breastplate).

You can power attack on an Unarmed or Natural strike, so power attack.

Golthur
2007-01-24, 12:45 PM
Quick, someone send up the Shazzbaa signal! :smile:

She's the local werecreature-as-a-character expert.

Piccamo
2007-01-24, 12:56 PM
In Tome of Battle there is a feat called Superior Unarmed Strike that increases monk damage from Unarmed Strike, or can give you extra damage if you are not a monk. Were you considering a natural or afflicted werewolf?

Indoril
2007-01-24, 12:56 PM
Quick, someone send up the Shazzbaa signal! :smile:

She's the local werecreature-as-a-character expert.

I'm rather amused by this.

Frosty Flake
2007-01-24, 12:57 PM
No, Be a Swordsage and focus on the crazy jumping-tiger-gores-humans-messily style so you could run around naked tearing through things and still be a pretty effective character. Mmm... 5-foot step after every attack...

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-24, 01:03 PM
Nah, Warblade, I say. But yeah, Tiger Claw style.

Dipping monk is a bad idea if you want improved unarmed strike. With 2 monk levels, you'll have d8 fist damage instead of 2d6 by 20.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 01:05 PM
Mwahahahaha. Ideas. Oh, and I'm going to go for an afflicted.
The DM said he might make this a gestalt game (assuming this gets off the ground), so I might do a monk/whatever combo.
...Oh man, monk/warblade gestalt with tiger claw maneuvers.
If that plays out...this is gonna be FUN.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 01:09 PM
If you're doing gestalt, Monk/Swordsage has better synergy, and would let you do Werewolf Judo, in the form of the Setting Sun discipline.

There's nothing quite like flinging your opponent thirty feet and then jumping onto him.

Frosty Flake
2007-01-24, 01:09 PM
But don't werewolves just get claws? that can then be improved with feats? Besides, the whole idea of going swordsage is to get more gore-splattering attacks per encounter and have the unarmoured bonus to AC from Wis, which a werewolf should get anyways to help it's perceptive and survival skills... and the Track feat, so it can hunt down a maul the weaklings humans... I should make a werewolf swordsage antagonist for my game!

Telonius
2007-01-24, 01:20 PM
Nah, Warblade, I say. But yeah, Tiger Claw style.

Dipping monk is a bad idea if you want improved unarmed strike. With 2 monk levels, you'll have d8 fist damage instead of 2d6 by 20.

Hmm, Warblade? Don't have ToB, and my books are at home, so I'm just going from SRD and some outside online sources for Complete series base classes. Can you get that 2d6 without ToB sources?

Darrin
2007-01-24, 01:27 PM
But don't werewolves just get claws? that can then be improved with feats? Besides, the whole idea of going swordsage is to get more gore-splattering attacks per encounter and have the unarmoured bonus to AC from Wis, which a werewolf should get anyways to help it's perceptive and survival skills... and the Track feat, so it can hunt down a maul the weaklings humans... I should make a werewolf swordsage antagonist for my game!

Not quite optimal... a Monk/SwordSage gets thoroughly blown on BAB, and I'm not sure the Wis bonus stacks. A Monk/Warblade has a bit better BAB, so you're going to get more iterative attacks sooner. A two-level dip into Ranger gets you Track + TWF and full BAB, but delays your initiator level progression. You're probably going to want Shadow Blade, though (I think it works with claws), so a dip into SwordSage (particularly for Assassin's Stance) or at least a Martial Study feat would be good.

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-24, 01:29 PM
Hmm, Warblade? Don't have ToB, and my books are at home, so I'm just going from SRD and some outside online sources for Complete series base classes. Can you get that 2d6 without ToB sources?

Don't think you can, unless improved natural attack applies to unarmed strike. Which, if I remember right, doesn't...

Frosty Flake
2007-01-24, 01:31 PM
Darrin:
ah, you assume I wanted to keep monk... when in fact Swordsage/Warblade would be better! full BAB, Full saves and both your classes count and extra 1/2 for the other in regards to getting menouvers... you can get level nine killy-goodness by level 12! plus more stances... and you can fill in all the unarmed stuff with feats. Who needs monk?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-24, 01:38 PM
Don't think you can, unless improved natural attack applies to unarmed strike. Which, if I remember right, doesn't...

It applies to the Monk's Unarmed Strikes, but not generally.

Piccamo
2007-01-24, 01:40 PM
Darrin:
ah, you assume I wanted to keep monk... when in fact Swordsage/Warblade would be better! full BAB, Full saves and both your classes count and extra 1/2 for the other in regards to getting menouvers... you can get level nine killy-goodness by level 12! plus more stances... and you can fill in all the unarmed stuff with feats. Who needs monk?
While ToB classes are good, they are not the be-all, end-all that you seem to make them out to be. There are still other good melee combinations out there, give them a chance, too :wink:

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 01:40 PM
Hmm, Swordsage/Warblade...
It WOULD help me if I end up wearing armor...
There's an enhancement for armor that lets you keep it while transformed, right? Usually helpful for druids?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-24, 01:42 PM
Hmm, Swordsage/Warblade...
It WOULD help me if I end up wearing armor...
There's an enhancement for armor that lets you keep it while transformed, right? Usually helpful for druids?

By the RAW, it only works with Wild Shape.

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-24, 01:42 PM
I think it's just for wildshape. Though I recall someone homebrewed one that applies to all.

Ooops, ^ beat me to it.

Could you just get armour specifically fitted for your hybrid shape?

It'd mean spending all your time that way, but it would help.

@v CAdv or CW. I'm leaning towards CAdv.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 01:43 PM
Yup. Wild. Forget where it is, though.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 01:44 PM
I'll probably see if I can swing that with my DM. It'd be helpful, to say the least.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-24, 01:44 PM
Heck, natural lycanthropes are best off staying in their hybrid form for most adventures, save when they enter civilized areas and don't want to frighten everyone.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 01:47 PM
Heck, natural lycanthropes are best off staying in their hybrid form for most adventures, save when they enter civilized areas and don't want to frighten everyone.
I'm going with afflicted, though.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-24, 01:51 PM
Quick, someone send up the Shazzbaa signal! :smile:

She's the local werecreature-as-a-character expert.

I came as fast as I could, Commissioner!

Oh, Golthur, you've made my day. However, I'm no character optimiser; I don't know much about non-core classes yet. ^^;

I will say this however -- people have already mentioned that WIS synergy is good, but I feel the need to point out that Control Shape, a completely vital skill for afflicted lycanthropes (unless you plan to be running around with nothing but a bite attack, and making your party members carry all your things), is a WIS-based skill. Also, you get 2 free WIS just for being a lycanthrope.

So, yes, WIS synergy is very good.

And, yeah, the Wild enchantment (p. 219 DMG iirc) doesn't work for Lycanthropes, as their transformation seems to be the only one in D&D that doesn't meld your armour into your new form. Though you could possibly talk your DM into houseruling a version that does (though as I've mentioned before, going into an armour shop and requesting armour specifically designed for lycanthropes raises a whole 'nother issue...)

I am fairly certain that you don't actually lose your armour in hybrid form, though I'm about to go check on that; in fact, since "wolf" is the same size category as "human," there's not even a chance of breaking it IIRC. Lemme go check...

EDIT: Relevant armour section:
Changing Form
Changing form is a standard action. If the change is involuntary, the character performs the change on his next turn following the triggering event. Changing to animal or hybrid form ruins the character's armour and clothing (including any items worn) if the new form is larger than the character's natural form; carried items are simply dropped. Characters can hastily doff clothing while changing, but not armour. Magic armour survives the change if it succeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
Note the lack of any mention of armour melding with the new form, and the fact that clothing/armour is only ruined if your new form is larger.
Though it appears I was wrong about not losing armour, as all the templates list hybrid form as not gaining the bonus to armour...

I'm actually rather confused by this. What does happen to the armour?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-24, 01:52 PM
Aw. I like natural lycanthropes. Hybrid mode is like cheating, and is totally worth the extra LA.

Winged One
2007-01-24, 01:53 PM
I think it's just for wildshape. Though I recall someone homebrewed one that applies to all.

Ooops, ^ beat me to it.

Could you just get armour specifically fitted for your hybrid shape?

It'd mean spending all your time that way, but it would help.

@v CAdv or CW. I'm leaning towards CAdv.
That was me. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30861)

Frosty Flake
2007-01-24, 01:53 PM
...why in the world would you wear armour when you could matt your fur with the blood of your enemies and bear the skulls of your most worthy prey as trophys adorning your hybrid war-form, howling as the meek enemy scatters fefore your might!

Ahem.

The Swordsage only gets the AC bonus when wearing light armour or less... does anyone know what the Dex bonus is, if any, in hybrid form? Even light armour would give you a negative to Jump, which would hurt your flesh-tearing goodness.

P.S. Craft(Taxidermy)


While ToB classes are good, they are not the be-all, end-all that you seem to make them out to be. There are still other good melee combinations out there, give them a chance, too
Oh, I know... but I like the idea of the nine swords classes blowing through a bunch of abilities in the beginning of the fight, rather than just being pretty good always... like a bomb vs a machine gun.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 01:57 PM
Well, the character I have in mind would be an afflicted, not natural, specimen.
Also, there's always mithril breastplate and other penalty reduction.
Good Wis is looking important, yeah.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 02:04 PM
For even more strange, you could go Swordsage//Paladin (probably a variant, like the Paladin of Freedom), and get full BAB, div grace, wis to ac, maneuvers, all good saves, and some Wis synergy.

EDIT: Or, for a more natural bent, Swordsage//Spirit Shaman has merit.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-24, 02:06 PM
And maybe go into the Grey Guard as soon as possible if he opts for the regular paladin type. I really want to try a Grey Guard some time.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 02:09 PM
...actually, I COULD see him running a pally variant in-character...

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 02:12 PM
Then there you go. Swordsage//Paladin of Freedom is probably your best bet if you want to be good, Swordsage//Paladin of Slaughter if evil.

Or, since you're afflicted, you could start as a Swordsage//Paladin, move to Swordsage//Grey Guard after the affliction.

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-24, 02:14 PM
Which book is Grey Guard from? And what does it do, exactly?

Shazzbaa
2007-01-24, 02:15 PM
Aw. I like natural lycanthropes. Hybrid mode is like cheating, and is totally worth the extra LA.

:smallconfused: Wait. Afflicted get Hybrid form, too... they just have to become aware and make a DC 15 check to get into it. ExHunterEmerald, are you starting out aware?

Telonius
2007-01-24, 02:16 PM
Grey Guard is from Complete Scoundrel. It's a PrC that eventually removes the Paladin Stick.

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-24, 02:18 PM
Guh. Bad imagery there.

I'll throw my lot in and agree with the swordsage//paladin idea.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 02:18 PM
Grey Guard is from Complete Scoundrel. It's a PrC that eventually removes the Paladin Stick.

And adds torturous power to Lay on Hands!

Fhaolan
2007-01-24, 02:20 PM
For some reason the idea of a lycan paladin just tickles me. I don't quite know why I find it so amusing, but I do. :smallsmile:

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 02:22 PM
He's a Neutral sort, and yeah, he'll start aware.
I gotta get ahold of Scoundrel now. It sounds awesome.

Telonius
2007-01-24, 02:32 PM
Guh. Bad imagery there.


Yeah, I took Craft Disturbing Image quite awhile ago. :belkar:

Darrin
2007-01-24, 02:32 PM
Darrin:
ah, you assume I wanted to keep monk... when in fact Swordsage/Warblade would be better! full BAB, Full saves and both your classes count and extra 1/2 for the other in regards to getting menouvers... you can get level nine killy-goodness by level 12! plus more stances... and you can fill in all the unarmed stuff with feats. Who needs monk?

Not sure I follow your reasoning (Swordsage is .75 BAB, so no full BAB) or what level nine killy-goodness by level 12 would be...

But Monk gives you Imp. Unarmed Strike, bonus feats (several choices via variant fighting styles or martial monk), the Wis bonus to AC, fast movement, but most importantly, your unarmed strikes count as natural weapons. A Monk/lycanthrope with Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, TWF, Snap Kick, Shadow Blade, and maybe some sneak damage could be interesting, if a bit complicated.

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-24, 02:34 PM
Not sure I follow your reasoning (Swordsage is .75 BAB, so no full BAB) or what level nine killy-goodness by level 12 would be...


He means gestalt, so full BAB from Warblade, and level nine killy-goodness probably refers to getting 9th level maneuvers earlier than usual. If that works. I haven't got ToB on me, so does it?

Shazzbaa
2007-01-24, 02:37 PM
Bwaha! A Werewolf Paladin. AWESOME.

Out of curiousity, is your DM keeping werewolf alignment problems, or are you doing the "werewolves are Neutral, not CE" thing?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 02:38 PM
He's wrong. You can't get L9 maneuvers sooner than L17.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 02:39 PM
I'm...not sure. I don't think he'd have a problem with a neutral character, and given that the rules on were-alignment state they can be changed, he might not mind a non-CE wolf...why are wolves particularly evil, anyway?
I'll have to see, anyways.

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-24, 02:39 PM
*coughsuccubusbeatyoutoitcough*

You could go for Paladin of Slaughter, I suppose. You don't wanna know what they do with their sticks.

Khantalas
2007-01-24, 02:53 PM
He's wrong. You can't get L9 maneuvers sooner than L17.

In theory, a gestalt character can. Since by level 12, if he has full progression in one martial adept class, he has an initiator level of 18. And I think initiator level is the only limit to the highest level of manuevers you can take.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-24, 02:57 PM
I'm...not sure. I don't think he'd have a problem with a neutral character, and given that the rules on were-alignment state they can be changed, he might not mind a non-CE wolf...why are wolves particularly evil, anyway?
I'll have to see, anyways.

This is rather important. The real problem is that if you ever transform voluntarily, you switch alignment... permanently (that means no hybrid form if you don't want to switch). Even if you never transform voluntarily, you'll eventually fail the Will Save to keep your true alignment, because the DC (IIRC) goes up each time.

So if you don't want to be Evil, and you want to play a Werewolf, be very nice to your DM and ask him to allow werewolves to go Neutral or CN. Those make the most sense to me. My DM and I agreed to have my werewolf character go Neutral, and he actually started the game that way, so I never had to worry about changing alignment.

If I had my way, lycanthropy alignment problems would be run COMPLETELY differently, but that's just me. :smalltongue:

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 02:58 PM
Well, the campaign's gonna have a Neutral to Evil bent--if I was a paladin, it would definitely be a variant and not the traditional kind--the character's looking like a dispassionate and embittered Neutral type.
Edit: Le ouch. I gotta look up the rules outside the SRD...
Thanks for the help.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 02:59 PM
In theory, a gestalt character can. Since by level 12, if he has full progression in one martial adept class, he has an initiator level of 18. And I think initiator level is the only limit to the highest level of manuevers you can take.

No, you don't, since you progress at the rate of the faster class for classes that have similar abilities. Initiator level, therefore, progresses at the faster rate.

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-24, 03:01 PM
Oh, just go the full way and make it Paladin of Slaughter. Embrace your inner(and, in this case, outer) beast!

I don't think there is a neutral variant.

Freedom, Tyranny and Slaughter. Unless there are other variants somewhere.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 03:11 PM
...why do you keep trying to get me to play a Paladin of Slaughter?

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-24, 03:12 PM
:wink:

I just have a sadistic streak.

Frosty Flake
2007-01-24, 03:13 PM
No, you don't, since you progress at the rate of the faster class for classes that have similar abilities. Initiator level, therefore, progresses at the faster rate.

I didn't see anything in ToB that addressed gestalt characters... how are you so sure of this?

Khantalas
2007-01-24, 03:16 PM
No, you don't, since you progress at the rate of the faster class for classes that have similar abilities. Initiator level, therefore, progresses at the faster rate.

But initiator level for a martial adept class = your levels in the class + half your levels in all other classes.

Seriously? I have no idea how that works with racial HD (since they're not class levels, per se) and gestalt characters. But there is nothing that preventing your initiator level from exceeding your HD.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 03:16 PM
I didn't see anything in ToB that addressed gestalt characters... how are you so sure of this?

Because that's how things like Sneak Attack, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Favored Enemy, Caster Level, and other progressing class features work with gestalt characters.

Take Caster Level (the closest approximation to Initiator Level we have). Being a Sorceror 10//Wizard 10 doesn't give you a Caster Level of 20, it gives you a Sorceror CL 10 and Wizard CL 10. Similarly, being a Swordsage 10//Warblade 10 gives you an IL of Sorceror IL 10 and Warblade IL 10; being a Monk 10//Swordsage 10 gives you a Monk IL of 5 and a Swordsage IL of 10.

Khantalas
2007-01-24, 03:17 PM
If casters worked like initiators, that sorcerer / wizard would have CL 15 in both classes.

Frosty Flake
2007-01-24, 03:18 PM
Fax_Celestis, your absalutely right, yes, that's how it SHOULD work... but, RAW, I think not so much... You could express your opinion that if you were the DM you would have it that way, though.

Khantalas
2007-01-24, 03:20 PM
Well, gestalt is a variant. Therefore, no book has to fully support it.

But you'd get an IL 30 at Character Level 20, and that would be ridiculous.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-24, 03:22 PM
Here is the RAW from Unearthed Arcane:


Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge (file:///D:/Roleplaying/3rd%20Edition/SRD%203.5/barbarian.html#barbarian-uncanny-dodge)) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 03:22 PM
If casters worked like initiators, that sorcerer / wizard would have CL 15 in both classes.

Except he wouldn't. You take the better progression.


Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

In this case, two classess share a class feature: Initiator Level. It would therefore accrue at the rate of the faster class.


Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.

However, since IL has more in common with CL than anything else, you would keep track of the IL of each half of your progression separately.

Therefore, a Monk 10//Swordsage 10 has an IL of 5//10.

Frosty Flake
2007-01-24, 03:26 PM
Therefore, a Monk 10//Swordsage 10 has an IL of 5//10.

What? no... that would make for an initiator level of 15, as you add half the level of the other class to the IL of the swordsage...

Edit: Look, there are even examples on page 39 of ToB.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-01-24, 03:31 PM
On the paladin question, crystalkeep has a good number of other paladin variants, which, albeit being slightly dubious, are quite good - one for each alignment, I think.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 03:44 PM
What? no... that would make for an initiator level of 15, as you add half the level of the other class to the IL of the swordsage...

Edit: Look, there are even examples on page 39 of ToB.

That's for a multiclass character, not a gestalt character. A gestalt character's Initiator Level acts exactly as a Caster Level does. Being a Sor 20//Wiz 20 does not give you a CL of 40, it gives you a CL of 20//20; being a Sws 20//Monk 20 does not give you an IL of 30, it gives you an IL of 20//10.

Golthur
2007-01-24, 03:48 PM
I came as fast as I could, Commissioner!

Oh, Golthur, you've made my day. However, I'm no character optimiser; I don't know much about non-core classes yet. ^^;

Glad I could oblige. :smile:

You might not know about non-core classes, but you do know about werecreatures, as well as rather obscure rules about Control Shape, alignment, and what happens to your armour in hybrid form. :wink:


That's for a multiclass character, not a gestalt character. A gestalt character's Initiator Level acts exactly as a Caster Level does. Being a Sor 20//Wiz 20 does not give you a CL of 40, it gives you a CL of 20//20; being a Sws 20//Monk 20 does not give you an IL of 30, it gives you an IL of 20//10.
QFT. Gestalt is not multiclass.

Figure out the IL of a Swordsage 20 (20), figure out the IL of a Monk 20 (10), use the best one.

JaronK
2007-01-24, 04:01 PM
I'd actually want to see Monk//Warblade, taking the Carmendine Monk feat so you could have some nice Int Synnergy. Spice it up by dropping monk after level 12 or so, and throwing in Kensai for good ole' enchanted fangs/claws/whatever.

JaronK

Fax Celestis
2007-01-24, 04:04 PM
I'd actually want to see Monk//Warblade, taking the Carmendine Monk feat so you could have some nice Int Synnergy. Spice it up by dropping monk after level 12 or so, and throwing in Kensai for good ole' enchanted fangs/claws/whatever.

JaronK

Both have merit. Depends on the flavor you're shooting for, and the maneuvers you want access to.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-24, 06:24 PM
Now that I finally have Tome of Battle, I can say that, without a doubt, the martial adept classes are perfect for any melee lover. For gestalt, I heartily reccomend crusader//swordsage or swordsage//warblade. It's walking death.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-24, 11:24 PM
You might not know about non-core classes, but you do know about werecreatures, as well as rather obscure rules about Control Shape, alignment, and what happens to your armour in hybrid form.

Aww, thanks. :smallsmile:

I am still wondering about that armour, though; what actually happens to it if it's not destroyed (if the animal form isn't bigger than the base creature), doesn't meld, but provides you no AC bonus? :smallconfused: If any other lycanthrope enthusiasts could share some insight on that, I'd welcome it. ^^;

Fhaolan
2007-01-25, 04:13 PM
Aww, thanks. :smallsmile:

I am still wondering about that armour, though; what actually happens to it if it's not destroyed (if the animal form isn't bigger than the base creature), doesn't meld, but provides you no AC bonus? :smallconfused: If any other lycanthrope enthusiasts could share some insight on that, I'd welcome it. ^^;

As a lycanthrope enthusiast, I will try to answer this. I will fail to do so, but I will try. :smallbiggrin:

As far as I can tell according to RAW, the armor isn't destroyed. Depending on whether you are shifting to a hybrid form, and animal form, and the exact shape of the animal, the armor may not do you any good, though. It'd be like trying to put humanoid full plate on a donkey. I don't think there is any explicit rule against it, but it is strongly implied in the 'Armor for Unusual Creatures' section that non-humanoids and humanoids with unusual features (like tails) *can't* wear standard humanoid armor, even if they are the same size.

I don't think there are any specific rules around the penalty for trying to wear armor that doesn't fit, but as a DM I would probably rule that it's effectively the same as being non-proficient in the armor and use the same penalties as that.

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-25, 04:16 PM
I'd have thought that you would sort of wriggle out of the armour. I doubt you would try and move around in armour that was impossible for you to wear. I would rule either that, or you'd end up immobile.

Well, depending on the shape you're in, I suppose.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-25, 04:16 PM
In that case, would you rule that a lycanthrope could wear armor that he's not proficient in as a human, but works fine when he's in hybrid mode?

Golthur
2007-01-25, 04:50 PM
I don't think there are any specific rules around the penalty for trying to wear armor that doesn't fit, but as a DM I would probably rule that it's effectively the same as being non-proficient in the armor and use the same penalties as that.

I'd probably take that as a reasonable house rule. Of course, the question goes, could you make a suit of armour that's good for both (and I'm not really talking about magical shape-changing armour, just regular-ol'-mundane armour)?

Dervag
2007-01-25, 04:53 PM
I am still wondering about that armour, though; what actually happens to it if it's not destroyed (if the animal form isn't bigger than the base creature), doesn't meld, but provides you no AC bonus?All I know is, I'd like to meet his blacksmith.:smallsmile:

Fhaolan
2007-01-25, 05:32 PM
I'd probably take that as a reasonable house rule. Of course, the question goes, could you make a suit of armour that's good for both (and I'm not really talking about magical shape-changing armour, just regular-ol'-mundane armour)?

I've made ring armor horse barding and tack in RL, and spend an unreasonable amount of time in real armor, so strangely enough I might actually be qualified to answer this. :)

The big problem is that most animals' chests are formed complete different from a humanoid. In effect, a biped's chest is between his arms, a quadraped's chest is above them. Shifting back and forth means you need some kind of armor that will move up and out from between the arms, and back again. And it has to be reasonably fitted, as if it just flops around it's actually not protecting you that much, it's just being annoying.

The only way I can envision this is a series of mid-sized plates (probably made of flexible material like leather-reinforced maille, scale, ring-and-strap, etc.), joined together with relatively long cinch straps like on western-style saddles. To do it fast you'd need a squire-type person to loosen the straps, you'd shapeshift, and then the squire would re-cinch the straps in this new configuration. From when the straps were loosened, and then tightened again, I'd say it would be equivalent to 'donned hastily' armor. The reason you'd need a squire is that the straps would be nearly impossible to adjust yourself in either form, just because of where they'd need to be placed for this to work. Also, the coverage of this armor would be partial at best. No full plate here. Of course, I'd have to make a set to be sure this would work at all, but in my mind's eye I think there's a real possibility it might.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-25, 05:37 PM
Would a loose-chain based scale mail work?

Golthur
2007-01-25, 05:38 PM
I've made ring armor horse barding and tack in RL, and spend an unreasonable amount of time in real armor, so strangely enough I might actually be qualified to answer this. :)

Cool :smile:


The big problem is that most animals' chests are formed complete different from a humanoid. In effect, a biped's chest is between his arms, a quadraped's chest is above them. Shifting back and forth means you need some kind of armor that will move up and out from between the arms, and back again. And it has to be reasonably fitted, as if it just flops around it's actually not protecting you that much, it's just being annoying.
Where is a hybrid's chest in relation to the upper limbs? It's a "bipedal hybrid form with prehensile hands and animalistic features" according to the MM, so not much help there.


The only way I can envision this is a series of mid-sized plates (probably made of flexible material like leather-reinforced maille, scale, ring-and-strap, etc.), joined together with relatively long cinch straps like on western-style saddles. To do it fast you'd need a squire-type person to loosen the straps, you'd shapeshift, and then the squire would re-cinch the straps in this new configuration. From when the straps were loosened, and then tightened again, I'd say it would be equivalent to 'donned hastily' armor. The reason you'd need a squire is that the straps would be nearly impossible to adjust yourself in either form, just because of where they'd need to be placed for this to work. Also, the coverage of this armor would be partial at best. No full plate here. Of course, I'd have to make a set to be sure this would work at all, but in my mind's eye I think there's a real possibility it might.

One hireling, coming up! :smile:
Very interesting.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-25, 06:07 PM
Thanks Fhaolan!!


As far as I can tell according to RAW, the armor isn't destroyed. Depending on whether you are shifting to a hybrid form, and animal form, and the exact shape of the animal, the armor may not do you any good, though.
Armour and clothing are only destroyed if your animal (and therefore, hybrid) form is a size category larger than the base creature. Therefore, werewolves are fine; weretigers might have issues.
Magic Armour gets a DC 15 fortitude save to resist being destroyed in the change (I think).

It'd be like trying to put humanoid full plate on a donkey. I don't think there is any explicit rule against it, but it is strongly implied in the 'Armor for Unusual Creatures' section that non-humanoids and humanoids with unusual features (like tails) *can't* wear standard humanoid armor, even if they are the same size.
I don't think there are any specific rules around the penalty for trying to wear armor that doesn't fit, but as a DM I would probably rule that it's effectively the same as being non-proficient in the armor and use the same penalties as that.

My DM uses the same houserule for my Werewolf character (which is why I said in my first post initially that the armour didn't disappear -- I had forgotten that it wasn't RAW). But then I checked the provided lycanthrope examples (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersKtoL.html#werewolf) in the Monster Manual, and even the medium creatures lose their armour bonus in hybrid form. In animal form, I assumed a werewolf could squeeze out of his armour, thus... obviously a wolf wouldn't get the armour bonus. But I'm confused as to why the hybrid form doesn't get an AC bonus from the armour, as if it has somehow disappeared (since the hybrid is humanoid and the size of whichever creature is larger, I can't imagine it "squeezing out," and it's specified that you can't quickly doff armour when changing).

So I'm in agreement with the "non-proficiency" houserule making a lot of sense, but on this one point I'm not sure what it is by RAW.


In that case, would you rule that a lycanthrope could wear armor that he's not proficient in as a human, but works fine when he's in hybrid mode?

My DM ruled likewise for my character; the problem in this case would be with the need to actually get fitted for such armour. :smalltongue:

Fhaolan
2007-01-25, 06:08 PM
Would a loose-chain based scale mail work?

Up to a point. Where the point is depends on the animal form, and how far into it the lycan shifts from humanoid.

I was working from the premise of 'worst-case scenario' where the lycan is shifting all the way from humanoid to full animal forms. Just to exagurate thing a bit, to catch all the problems.

If it's a full animal form there'd be a lot of compressed material between the creature's front legs... unless you go a kind of belted poncho/cape arrangement so that it looks a lot like skirt barding in animal form, and in humanoid form you wrap the 'skirt' part around your stomach, belt it, and the front part of the skirt hangs down to meet the part around your stomach and it latched on with a short strap. I'm not sure I'm envisioning this right, because it's looking kinda ugly in my mind's eye. Ugly as in appearance, not in lack of protection, that is. :smallsmile:



Where is a hybrid's chest in relation to the upper limbs? It's a "bipedal hybrid form with prehensile hands and animalistic features" according to the MM, so not much help there.

Yah, that really doesn't help much, which is why I went with the 'full humanoid to full animal' approach. Then I didn't have to worry about the in-between part. :smallsmile:

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-25, 06:15 PM
Hmm...if I go were-dire-wolf (might need to, DM said it's a high LA game and suggested it), I'd have the large-medium size problem.

Fhaolan
2007-01-25, 06:32 PM
Hmm...if I go were-dire-wolf (might need to, DM said it's a high LA game and suggested it), I'd have the large-medium size problem.

High LA game or high level game?

If it's a high-level game, you might be starting with a reasonable amount of cash. If so I'd recommend sinking it into non-armor protective devices that don't get torn up with shapeshifting, like cloaks and bracers.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-25, 10:04 PM
Both, probably.
I think I'd see if I can wrangle my DM into allowing shapeshifting armor for Lycanthropes. Failing that, I'll get alternative AC bonus materials.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-25, 10:50 PM
I've made ring armor horse barding and tack in RL, and spend an unreasonable amount of time in real armor, so strangely enough I might actually be qualified to answer this. :)

The big problem is that most animals' chests are formed complete different from a humanoid. In effect, a biped's chest is between his arms, a quadraped's chest is above them. Shifting back and forth means you need some kind of armor that will move up and out from between the arms, and back again. And it has to be reasonably fitted, as if it just flops around it's actually not protecting you that much, it's just being annoying.

The only way I can envision this is a series of mid-sized plates (probably made of flexible material like leather-reinforced maille, scale, ring-and-strap, etc.), joined together with relatively long cinch straps like on western-style saddles. To do it fast you'd need a squire-type person to loosen the straps, you'd shapeshift, and then the squire would re-cinch the straps in this new configuration. From when the straps were loosened, and then tightened again, I'd say it would be equivalent to 'donned hastily' armor. The reason you'd need a squire is that the straps would be nearly impossible to adjust yourself in either form, just because of where they'd need to be placed for this to work. Also, the coverage of this armor would be partial at best. No full plate here. Of course, I'd have to make a set to be sure this would work at all, but in my mind's eye I think there's a real possibility it might.

Er, not to spoil your fun or anything, because it looks like you spent a good amount of time writing that reply, but...

"Hi, there! I'm Artie the Artificer! *KAZORCH!* There! Magical shapeshifting armor that always fits, even if you transform into a freakish anthropomorphic wolf monster! It's yours for just a +3 price bonus! Pleasure doing business with you! Now, I'm off to violate the laws of thermodynamics and conservation and maybe sell a few swords that simultaneously generate extreme cold and extreme heat! Tally-Ho!"

Shazzbaa
2007-01-25, 11:03 PM
Er, not to spoil your fun or anything, because it looks like you spent a good amount of time writing that reply, but...

"Hi, there! I'm Artie the Artificer! *KAZORCH!* There! Magical shapeshifting armor that always fits, even if you transform into a freakish anthropomorphic wolf monster! It's yours for just a +3 price bonus! Pleasure doing business with you!"

Well, since the Wild armour enhancement doesn't work for lycanthropes, you'd have to create your own spell/enhancement to do that. But that's a pretty reasonable houserule/invention.

Even so, there was a reason behind all the writing: :smalltongue:


Of course, the question goes, could you make a suit of armour that's good for both (and I'm not really talking about magical shape-changing armour, just regular-ol'-mundane armour)?

Fizban
2007-01-25, 11:19 PM
Well, on the magical side, you can always settle for bracers of armor, and I don't think the MM says anything about shields does it? The Wild enhancement has other benefits besides letting a druid keep the armor, however in Complete Adventurer there's a property that lets the armor resize/fit for wildshaping that only costs a +1 bonus. There was a thread a while back looking for a similar property that works for any form, and +2 was agreed to be a fair price.

On the mundane side, that would work great for one of those freaky mechanical things that doesn't seem possible but lo by the magic of medieval thechnology it is (of course it's been suggested as possible anyway). Mechanics-wise you need to decide if you want it useable immediately, or if you have to wait and adjust it (the DM that is).