Two hand crossbows build?

[KnotKnormal]

I've had this idea for a character for a while now but I have no idea how to effectively go about it. basically I want to dual wield hand crossbows or repeating crossbows if possible. I know this build will horribly feat starved and almost impossible to optimize with anything that resembles success but I really enjoy the concept and would like to give a try.

Anyone know any classes, prestige or otherwise, that would work good with this idea? as well as any feats besides the standard TWF, ITWF, Point blank shot, Precise shot, Rapid shot.

[Fax Celestis]

You want Hand Crossbow Focus from Drow of the Underdark. It lets your reload hand crossbows as a free action.

[Flickerdart]

Exotic Weapon Master can be useful for Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting and Ranged Disarm. Crossbow Sniper is nice to have, as are Dead Eye and Woodland Archer.

There is an obscure prestige class in Silver Marches (a Faerun 3.0 adventure) called Peerless Archer that is really nice for archers. A cooperative DM could be persuaded to replace every instance of "bow" with "crossbow" which would get you 1:1 power attack with crossbows, some Sneak Attack, ability to ignore some concealment, and crafting your own magical bolts.

[Uncle Pine]

Base classes: Ranger, Fighter (Targeteer).
PrC: Deepwood Sniper, Peerless Archer.
Feats: Crossbow Sniper, Deadeye, Darkstalker.
Weapons: self-loading+quickloading (one or the other or both depending on which crossbows you're going to use) and force generally covers the necessary weapon enhancement. If you want as many attacks as possible double crossbows could be great.
Other equipment: those gloves that get you ITWF (I believe they're the gloves of the balanced hands), gnomish scopes, ring of anticipation.

In my experience, double crossbows builds can deal pretty good damage while still being able to work as scouts/pseudo-skillmonkeys when needed.

EDIT:

There is an obscure prestige class in Silver Marches (a Faerun 3.0 adventure) called Peerless Archer that is really nice for archers. A cooperative DM could be persuaded to replace every instance of "bow" with "crossbow" which would get you 1:1 power attack with crossbows, some Sneak Attack, ability to ignore some concealment, and crafting your own magical bolts.
Minor nitpick: Silver Marches isn't an adventure module, it's a Faerun splatbook that also contains 4 adventures.
Anyway, I always forget that as it's written Peerless Archer only works for bows because in my group we extended the fluff to crossbows as well. Try to ask your DM to do the same, because it'd make a really good 3 levels dip.

[tricktroller]

You might take ranks in perform juggle and ask your DM if you can make a perform check to toss one into the air and reload the other and then do the same thing with the other.

It would also give the character some flavor other than an almost John Woo character.

[KnotKnormal]

You might take ranks in perform juggle and ask your DM if you can make a perform check to toss one into the air and reload the other and then do the same thing with the other.

It would also give the character some flavor other than an almost John Woo character.

Lol, I was going to ask him if I "could tomb raider" cause but I like your idea better.

[tricktroller]

His line could be "I am he who juggles Death!" and have skulls on the fronts of all the crossbows..... he throws up 6 quarrels and one crossbow and then juggles them loading the crossbows with two while keeping the quarrels in a loop so they are available when he needs them.

[KnotKnormal]

His line could be "I am he who juggles Death!" and have skulls on the fronts of all the crossbows..... he throws up 6 quarrels and one crossbow and then juggles them loading the crossbows with two while keeping the quarrels in a loop so they are available when he needs them.

I suddenly fallen in love with this character. I actually imagine him juggling 6 of them with only one loaded, and h catches and fires them off at his now feared target.

[tricktroller]

perform Juggle of Death adds +2 synergy to intimidate checks made by juggling loaded crossbows.

Also, he needs to be randomly juggling a pair of melee weapons in case he needs to attack someone with a melee attack.

[Barstro]

A cooperative DM could be persuaded to replace every instance of "bow" with "crossbow"

A cooperative DM would allow you to spend several hours planning how to go from L1 to L20 and combine/alter feats as necessary to do so and finally say "this looks fine, you are still tier 4".

As long as the PC isn't suddenly destroying an entire army with 1,000 bolts in one round, a DM should be kind enough to work with a player.

[Metahuman1]

perform Juggle of Death adds +2 synergy to intimidate checks made by juggling loaded crossbows.

Also, he needs to be randomly juggling a pair of melee weapons in case he needs to attack someone with a melee attack.

Mount Crossbow Bayonett's on them. Alternatively, Pick up improved/superior unarmed strike or a level or two of monk/unarmed swordsage/battle dancer and a +1 Necklace of Natural Weapons.

As for bonus damage, see if you can talk you dm into letting you have a really small Awakened animated object with bard levels as a cohort with the leadership feat and give it dragonfire inspiration and emerald, Battle or Amathest dragon heritage for an obscure damage type. Boom, damage is totally relevant and doesn't have a range cap.

[Big Fau]

A Spare Hand (MiC) can let you reload light crossbows with Rapid Reload without issue (other than a DM-imposed limit on free actions). As mentioned, the Hand Crossbow Focus feat works with any crossbow that has the Aptitude enhancement (Bo9S), but you'd still need a free hand to reload them.

[Metahuman1]

If you putting cost reducers on them (and if your DM will let you you should be, Weapons are generally overpriced, TWF makes this twice as bad.), consider when you can afford +2 weapons and enchantment form MiC that let's you have 100 shots loaded into the crossbow at a time. That way, you don't run out of ammo.

[Irk]

try factotum 8 with font of inspiration and hand crossbow focus, as well as the enhancement that gives you an infinite clip (from AEG, I think).

EDIT: Also, this (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3470196) by Stormwind & co.

[Dr. Azkur]

There is nothing in the ranged man's world that doesn't improve with Raging Mongoose + Time Stand Still. Get those two as soon as possible.

[Piggy Knowles]

It's costly, but if you can't get your mitts on a third hand to reload your crossbows for you, you can always take Quick Draw and carry a thoroughly ridiculous quantity of pre-loaded hand crossbows on you. Draw them and drop them as needed. Call yourself Il Duce* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsuH1msEkvM) for bonus fun.

*Link includes violence and bad language. And Willem Dafoe chewing the heck out of the scenery, as only he can do.

[DarkKensai]

It's costly, but if you can't get your mitts on a third hand to reload your crossbows for you, you can always take Quick Draw and carry a thoroughly ridiculous quantity of pre-loaded hand crossbows on you. Draw them and drop them as needed. Call yourself Il Duce* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsuH1msEkvM) for bonus fun.

*Link includes violence and bad language. And Willem Dafoe chewing the heck out of the scenery, as only he can do.

I got a ridiculous amount of pleasure from that reference. Thank you for that!



perform Juggle of Death adds +2 synergy to intimidate checks made by juggling loaded crossbows.


Can't stop thinking of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRk33QL_Fjo)

[KnotKnormal]

Can't stop thinking of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRk33QL_Fjo)

yes that is exactly what i was thinking too.

[Ketiara]

Now im in love aswell :)

[Cespenar]

I think there was a build once with Aptitude Hand Crossbows and Lightning Mace? :smallbiggrin:

[KnotKnormal]

Alright new challenge. This build as a level 10 character, only allowed the PHB and complete book, minus psionic. who can make this character?

[Yanisa]

Alright new challenge. This build as a level 10 character, only allowed the PHB and complete book, minus psionic. who can make this character?

To be honest, dual wielding crossbows ain't that hard. There is only one obstacle, and that is the whole reloading needs two hands. But both your hands are filled with crossbows.

Best way to deal it with only the core rule books: Glove of Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gloveofStoring), times two. 20k gold, which is expensive but at level 10 affordable.

The rest is picking a couple of necessary feats and something to enhance damage. I believe ranger, favored enemy, is the easiest because it also gives some feats. And maybe rogue, sneak attack, but that requires more feats.
Two levels fighters can always help with the feats.

I am far to lazy to do a proper build though, but lets give you something...
4Fighter/6Ranger

1) Normal feat - Two-Weapon Fighting
1) Human Bonus - Rapid Reload
1) Fighter Bonus - Point Blank
2) Fighter Bonus - Precise Shot
3) Normal feat - Weapon Focus (light crossbow)
4) Fighter Bonus - Weapon Specialization (light crossbow)
6) Combat Style - Rapid Shot
6) Normal feat - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9) Normal feat - Ranged Weapon Mastery (piercing)
10) Combat Style - Many Shot

You also get 2 favored enemies (+4, +2) and an animal companion.
As for items, don't forgot 2 gloves of storing and get at least a +2 dex belt.

It lacks punch and something flashy, but it does what it is supposed to do, using two crossbows and firing a load of bolts. I also believe this is 100% player handbook only, pretty sure you guys can make something more shinier with more material.

[KnotKnormal]

To be honest, dual wielding crossbows ain't that hard. There is only one obstacle, and that is the whole reloading needs two hands. But both your hands are filled with crossbows.

Best way to deal it with only the core rule books: Glove of Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gloveofStoring), times two. 20k gold, which is expensive but at level 10 affordable.

The rest is picking a couple of necessary feats and something to enhance damage. I believe ranger, favored enemy, is the easiest because it also gives some feats. And maybe rogue, sneak attack, but that requires more feats.
Two levels fighters can always help with the feats.

I am far to lazy to do a proper build though, but lets give you something...
4Fighter/6Ranger

1) Normal feat - Two-Weapon Fighting
1) Human Bonus - Rapid Reload
1) Fighter Bonus - Point Blank
2) Fighter Bonus - Precise Shot
3) Normal feat - Weapon Focus (light crossbow)
4) Fighter Bonus - Weapon Specialization (light crossbow)
6) Combat Style - Rapid Shot
6) Normal feat - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9) Normal feat - Ranged Weapon Mastery (piercing)
10) Combat Style - Many Shot

You also get 2 favored enemies (+4, +2) and an animal companion.
As for items, don't forgot 2 gloves of storing and get at least a +2 dex belt.

It lacks punch and something flashy, but it does what it is supposed to do, using two crossbows and firing a load of bolts. I also believe this is 100% player handbook only, pretty sure you guys can make something more shinier with more material.

I like it, it's simple and easy. I would just do some ranger and fighter variants for extra feats and power.

[Piggy Knowles]

I think there was a build once with Aptitude Hand Crossbows and Lightning Mace? :smallbiggrin:

The Gun Fu build that Irk linked above is a dual-wielding aptitude hand crossbow build that abuses Lightning Mace and Blood in the Water... might be what you were thinking of.

[KnotKnormal]

anyone else have any build ideas for this?

[Uncle Pine]

If you want to buy a Glove of Storing, buy a Glove of the Master Strategy instead. It's from Ghostwalk and it's cheaper and better than the Glove of Storing.

[Zanos]

A cooperative DM would allow you to spend several hours planning how to go from L1 to L20 and combine/alter feats as necessary to do so and finally say "this looks fine, you are still tier 4".

As long as the PC isn't suddenly destroying an entire army with 1,000 bolts in one round, a DM should be kind enough to work with a player.
A high level PC should be able to decimate an entire mundane armor with two crossbows.

Maybe not 1000 bolts a round, but still, we're talking about characters that handle threats that could destroy entire planes.


You want Hand Crossbow Focus from Drow of the Underdark. It lets your reload hand crossbows as a free action.
I could be wrong about this, but don't you still need a free hand?

[Fax Celestis]

I could be wrong about this, but don't you still need a free hand?

You do, but that part's easy. Spare hand, from Magic of Eberron (12k gp). Shape Soulmeld (Girallon Arms). Play a thri-kreen or diopsid. Get polymorphed into an arrow demon or athach. Buy an item of continuous girallon's blessing (45k gp). Arms of the naga (56k gp).

[Swaoeaeieu]

You do, but that part's easy. Spare hand, from Magic of Eberron (12k gp). Shape Soulmeld (Girallon Arms). Play a thri-kreen or diopsid. Get polymorphed into an arrow demon or athach. Buy an item of continuous girallon's blessing (45k gp). Arms of the naga (56k gp).


or the mighty arm grafts. 2000 gp for two extra fully functional arms! does take 2 hp from your total. but i think you can handle it

[KnotKnormal]

Correct me if i'm wrong but based on the build that Yanisa provided, every 10 bolts fired will require 2 full rounds to reload. Is there any way to reduce reload time to a standard action or even a move action?

[Yanisa]

Correct me if i'm wrong but based on the build that Yanisa provided, every 10 bolts fired will require 2 full rounds to reload. Is there any way to reduce reload time to a standard action or even a move action?

I did use Rapid Reload, which reduces loading time to a free action with a light crossbow. Combined with the gloves of storing the following would happen (in a full round).

Part of attack - Shoot with both crossbows.
Free action - Glove of Storing(1) withdraws one crossbow(1)
Free action - Reload one crossbow(2), you now got one hand free to do so
Free action - Glove of Storing(2) withdraws the other crossbow(2)
Free action - Glove of Storing(1) (re)draws the first crossbow(1)
Free action - Reload that crossbow(1), again with one free hand
Free action - Glove of storing(2) (re)draws the other crossbow(2)
Still part of the same attack - Shot again with both crossbows
Lather
Rinse
Repeat

Yeah, a spam of free actions, some dms do hate that, so be warned? The same would happen with almost any extra hand item, except it uses a bit less free actions (4 less per 2 shots), but who cares, they are free after all.

Another way to deal with reloading are repeating crossbows (contains six bolts before needing to reload) and there is even an enchant in the magic item companion that allows an extra dimensional space that hold up to a 100 bolts (but I forgot the name, nor have the book atm)

If you want to avoid both the reloading and extra hand issue, there is also a web enhancement(link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a); scroll down a bit) that introduces the double crossbow. A crossbow mounted ATOP a crossbow, though you are stuck the hand crossbow for free reloading. (BTW The rules as written are a bit clunky in that article so you need a lenient DM with some nice reading, then again you probably will need a lenient DM to allow it in the first place...)
You can even dual wield those btw, if you want to go insanely over the top with the idea.

[Fax Celestis]

Correct me if i'm wrong but based on the build that Yanisa provided, every 10 bolts fired will require 2 full rounds to reload. Is there any way to reduce reload time to a standard action or even a move action?

...Hand Crossbow Focus makes reloading a free action. You get an arbitrarily large (read: until your DM smacks you) number of those each round.

[KnotKnormal]

I did use Rapid Reload, which reduces loading time to a free action with a light crossbow. Combined with the gloves of storing the following would happen (in a full round).

Part of attack - Shoot with both crossbows.
Free action - Glove of Storing(1) withdraws one crossbow(1)
Free action - Reload one crossbow(2), you now got one hand free to do so
Free action - Glove of Storing(2) withdraws the other crossbow(2)
Free action - Glove of Storing(1) (re)draws the first crossbow(1)
Free action - Reload that crossbow(1), again with one free hand
Free action - Glove of storing(2) (re)draws the other crossbow(2)
Still part of the same attack - Shot again with both crossbows
Lather
Rinse
Repeat

Yeah, a spam of free actions, some dms do hate that, so be warned? The same would happen with almost any extra hand item, except it uses a bit less free actions (4 less per 2 shots), but who cares, they are free after all.

Another way to deal with reloading are repeating crossbows (contains six bolts before needing to reload) and there is even an enchant in the magic item companion that allows an extra dimensional space that hold up to a 100 bolts (but I forgot the name, nor have the book atm)

If you want to avoid both the reloading and extra hand issue, there is also a web enhancement(link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a); scroll down a bit) that introduces the double crossbow. A crossbow mounted ATOP a crossbow, though you are stuck the hand crossbow for free reloading. (BTW The rules as written are a bit clunky in that article so you need a lenient DM with some nice reading, then again you probably will need a lenient DM to allow it in the first place...)
You can even dual wield those btw, if you want to go insanely over the top with the idea.

holy crap! I apologize I completely missed that. Thanks for the build, its turning out really nicely so far. can't wait to play him.

[KnotKnormal]

I can't find anything that would really help this character. I can deal a descent amount of damage but any amount of DR on the creatures pat and I'm totally useless... any idea anyone?