[3.P] Getting a True Dragon as a mount? (Lowest level possible?) [Archive]

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mistformsquirrl

2014-01-21, 12:43 PM

It's a classic fantasy trope - the knight mounted atop a dragon, able to charge into the craziest of situations and emerge victorious through a combination of martial prowess and draconic ferocity...

It paints quite the image.

Unfortunately it's pretty hard to pull off at any reasonable level as far as I'm aware. You can knock some levels off by being a Small rider, and that has some advantages/disadvantages both... but it doesn't have quite the same "wow" factor as a more 'typical' dragon knight type character. (Insofar as such a thing is typical, hah.)

Near as I can recall (and I'm probably missing a couple things), the simplest way to get a dragon as a mount is to take Leadership and attract a dragon cohort.

That works; but even with a really, really good leadership score you're talking very high levels to get a dragon capable of carrying a medium rider. Like 16th as a minimum I think. There's a Dragonlance PrC that you can use to bring this down a bit.

There's also the Paladin mount - which if I recall correctly can be used to attract a dragon at sufficiently high levels as well. If I remember right the earliest this kicks in is level 13ish, but I don't remember where that source is from and it may even be 3.0e material I'm thinking of.

There's Dragon Steed from Draconomicon - but that's a Dragonnel not a True Dragon of any description. Cool, but not quite what I'm looking for.

Right now, the earliest I can get a hold of one as near as I can see is 11th level if I go with a Small rider and make use of the Dragon Rider prestige class - that gives access to Brass, Black, White, or a wyvern. Since I'm looking to be Good (preferably of the Lawful sort), it's at least level 15 to get a Young Silver Dragon.

Note that I'm not complaining - a dragon mount is 'kind of a big deal' for a lot of reasons; it's rather that for obvious reasons if I were to create a dragon riding character I'd want them to actually ride a dragon ASAP <,<

So, any other ideas for how to get a True Dragon, preferably of the Lawful Good variety, as a mount at the lowest possible level?

Annos

2014-01-21, 01:11 PM

Two levels in the Dragon Knight class lets you treat a dragon as 2 levels lower for Leadership, And Dragon Cohort feat gives you a dragon cohort treats as two levels lower, input DM allowing it and you have a Dragon Cohort that is counted as 4 levels lower. Also if your dragon has the Powerful Mount feat (though it is Dragonlance) you can use a mount with the same size as you. Hope this helps! :smallbiggrin:
Edit: for level 9 because of Dragon cohort requirements. You could settle for level six and Leadership but you'd probably have to be tiny and ride a wyrmling.

Callin

2014-01-21, 01:28 PM

Isnt there a third party pathfinder class called Dragon Rider or somethig to that extent. Gives ya a Dragon Mount at lvl 1.

Slipperychicken

2014-01-21, 01:58 PM

You could mount a Dragonwrought Kobold (which counts as a True Dragon) if you're Tiny sized.

mistformsquirrl

2014-01-21, 02:38 PM

Smartass >_> lol

@Callin - There is in fact the Dragonrider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/dragonrider) class; but being third party it would be tough to get a DM to allow it - and it's got some... odd... stuff going on in it's ability fluff imo.

It's one of those things I'd probably re-engineer it myself before submitting it to a DM, if I were to go that route. You are right though, it is a way to get a level 1 True Dragon mount!

@Annos - I hadn't remembered Dragon Cohort, hrmmmm... an intriguing prospect.

jokeaccount

2014-01-21, 02:51 PM

I'm pretty sure OP is looking to ride at least Huge dragons. That means closer to adult age and about 20-25 HD

mistformsquirrl

2014-01-21, 03:01 PM

Large is fine really - huge would be awesome, but I realize that's pretty unlikely in any standard game <,<

Urpriest

2014-01-21, 03:08 PM

For Large, Dragon Cohort is really your best bet without cheese.

With cheese...well, how do you feel about age-cursing? There's an alternate use of Bestow Curse detailed in Book of Vile Darkness to increase a creature's age, and when True Dragons get older...

BWR

2014-01-21, 03:23 PM

Convince your DM to ignore any mechanics, then get a dragon as a first level commoner.
Bribing the DM, playing a game where for some story reason this happens, whatever.

Magesmiley

2014-01-21, 03:28 PM

Phelix-Mu

2014-01-21, 03:38 PM

You could play something very small and ride a Small wyrmling. Could work, but usually Tiny creatures have some accompanying LA.

This would actually be a pretty cool concept. If you could swing a DM on allowing the wyrmling dragon as a special mount, I can see some interesting potential. Maybe a slight revision of Dragon Mount to make it work for these purposes. A Tiny creature with a Small dragon mount would be quite interesting. Maybe a mix of Don Quixote and Zorro or something. Hehe.

Urpriest

2014-01-21, 04:06 PM

One other notion not mentioned yet:

Convince one of the other players to play the dragon. There were articles in Dragon magazine with level progressions for dragons, allowing players to play them starting at level 1 (however most started at small size at level 1, so you might have to wait a few levels).

That's actually worse than taking Dragon Cohort. Dragon Cohorts are actually 1 ECL ahead of their masters, mostly because people realized that otherwise rideable dragons would be essentially inaccessible.

Magesmiley

2014-01-21, 04:14 PM

That's actually worse than taking Dragon Cohort. Dragon Cohorts are actually 1 ECL ahead of their masters, mostly because people realized that otherwise rideable dragons would be essentially inaccessible.

I'd say that depends. If the creature you're riding is another PC you don't have to worry about any prerequisites or issues other than he/she being big enough to ride on.

Coidzor

2014-01-21, 04:23 PM

Being 15th level gets you, with Dragon Cohort, an ECL 16 Very Young Gold Dragon that's Large sized. I can't remember if they published level adjustments for any of the other metallic dragons when they're old and large enough to ride in Draconomicon or not.

So that's one level sooner than 16th level. XD

I'm pretty sure OP is looking to ride at least Huge dragons. That means closer to adult age and about 20-25 HD

Which is basically just not gonna happen without Bestow Curse or going into Epic.

Or *shudder* Homebrew.

Urpriest

2014-01-21, 04:30 PM

I'd say that depends. If the creature you're riding is another PC you don't have to worry about any prerequisites or issues other than he/she being big enough to ride on.

So you're trading one feat for a party member one level higher than the rest of your party. Sure, that's not a trade you'd make every single time, but it's still probably going to be worthwhile.

Annos

2014-01-21, 06:56 PM

You could always have a druid get both the Dragon wildshape and the Powerful Mount feats or have them go master of many forms. :smallwink: But that might not be what you're looking for.

mistformsquirrl

2014-01-22, 02:52 AM

Coidzor

2014-01-22, 03:37 AM

Hah, some great ideas here all around. Thank you everyone, you've been a tremendous help!

Also thanks to this thread I've learned it's possible to be a dragon; which is something else now on my list of "Things I must do at least once."

Yep. There's even a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204). Full Disclosure: You probably want Steel.

Angelmaker

2014-01-22, 04:21 AM

Level 1 chicken infested commoner. Have very sad eyes and beg the gold wyrm into helping. Good aligned creatures are suckers for the guilt trip. :smallbiggrin:

Perseus

2014-01-22, 12:53 PM

You could mount a Dragonwrought Kobold (which counts as a True Dragon) if you're Tiny sized.

Winner winner slipperychicken dinner!

Annos

2014-01-22, 01:47 PM

Perseus

2014-01-22, 02:20 PM

Dragonwrought Kobolds really shouldn't be counted as true dragons and if your settling for this you might as well pick up a drakensteed or a half-dragon horse. Besides, do you really wan't to be the pun to a Pun-Pun?

Meh, it is cooler narratively if some kobolds can become true dragons.

Also Pun-Pun is DM dependent as is everything in the game because of rule 0. Also I think there are other ways to make punpun, true dragon kobold just is the easiest or fastest way.

But still a pixie or something riding a kobold into battle would be ridiculous and fantastic... Perhaps for years the pixie kobold relation has grown to where they go to batlle together against those that invade their lands?

Besides how many times do you get to say "The Kobold-Pixie Treaty of 1842"?

Annos

2014-01-22, 02:47 PM

A Pixie would ride a Faerie Dragon into battle actually. :smallbiggrin:

Perseus

2014-01-22, 03:02 PM

A Pixie would ride a Faerie Dragon into battle actually. :smallbiggrin:

That sounds like a very Fey Dragon.

mistformsquirrl

2014-01-22, 03:28 PM

Now you're giving me even more character ideas... I'm going to die of old age before I can play all of them lol >< (Good problem to have.)

Annos

2014-01-22, 04:04 PM

Now you're giving me even more character ideas... I'm going to die of old age before I can play all of them lol >< (Good problem to have.)

Not when you can't find a reliable group to game with. :smallfrown:

Dayaz

2014-01-22, 08:52 PM

I'm actually kinda shocked that no one has mentioned the Evil ways to do this >.>

Fiendbinder: You can summon a fiend that can possess people. Bestow Curse+Possession (WHICH DOESN'T HAVE A TIME LIMIT)

Mindbender: Either permanent Charm effect on a dragon or a permanent Dominate. Either way, you get a mount.

Necromancer: Shivering Touch the dragon to death. Animate him. Ride him. (My Whisper Gnome who rode a zombie Gold Dragon was a blast)

Mithril Leaf

2014-01-22, 09:53 PM

Disclaimer: It is broken as hell.

Zhentarim Skymage PrC from Lords of Darkness page 102 gets any flying creature as a mount at level 1, with the only limit being it's HD must be below Level + Cha. You can enter at level 6.

mistformsquirrl

2014-01-23, 03:43 AM

SassyQuatch

2014-01-23, 04:15 AM

Honestly, you can also knock off a few levels by just using magic/psionics. Make a dragon a size larger and/or the character a size smaller.

Dayaz

2014-01-23, 09:34 AM

Those are excellent ideas hehe - sadly I can't play evil >_< But they're very good ideas!

@Karoht - That is sneaky... >_> Depending on the campaign broken isn't always a bad thing.

Depending on how much bs you think you can push, you can be a good aligned Mindbender. You just stay neutral until you are high enough level to perma-charm a dragon, then turn good. You don't loose class features, you just can't go higher in the class. Find an evil dragon, mindbend him, and then turn back to good. Play it as you are trying to turn him good.

Segev

2014-01-23, 10:11 AM

Doesn't Dragon Cohort let you get a dragon as if it were ECL 3 lower than what it's listed as?

What is this "dragon knight" prestige class, and where is it printed?

If you have Leadership and Dragon Cohort, do you have two cohorts? (one for Leadership, one for Dragon Cohort) I don't see text in Dragon Cohort that says you can't also have Leadership. (I think I recall seeing Undead Leadership say you can't have both it and regular Leadership, so no "three cohort" tricks, here.)

Annos

2014-01-23, 04:08 PM

The Dragon Knight is from Dragon magic and the ability is technically for use with the leadership feat, but with the right GM it doesn't really matter.

otakumick

2014-01-23, 04:12 PM

Do you mean Dragon Lord from dragon magic? it specifically calls out that it works with Dragon Cohort, though it can work with leadership

Phelix-Mu

2014-01-23, 04:17 PM

Depending on how much bs you think you can push, you can be a good aligned Mindbender. You just stay neutral until you are high enough level to perma-charm a dragon, then turn good. You don't loose class features, you just can't go higher in the class. Find an evil dragon, mindbend him, and then turn back to good. Play it as you are trying to turn him good.

That would be some epic fail attempt to "turn him good." If only good worked like that, then evil wouldn't get all the fun. :smallsmile:

Dayaz

2014-01-23, 07:11 PM

That would be some epic fail attempt to "turn him good." If only good worked like that, then evil wouldn't get all the fun. :smallsmile:

I never said it would actually work, rofl

MilesTiden

2014-01-23, 07:29 PM

A Pixie would ride a Faerie Dragon into battle actually. :smallbiggrin:

... Looking this up, I was profoundly disappointed that both Pixies and Faerie Dragons were small sized. (I could have sworn Pixies were tiny?) Anyways, the Powerful Mount feat apparently solves this problem... except I literally can't find it... Does anyone know what book this is from?

EDIT: Nevermind. Found it. The feat is Mighty Steed from Knightly Orders of Krynn.

Deadline

2014-01-23, 07:30 PM

You can swing this as an arcane caster with Polymorph, Improved Familiar, and a Pseudodragon familiar.

Annos

2014-01-25, 11:07 PM

:smalleek: my ability to remember names is seriously lacking.

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-26, 12:28 AM

Were I not to step in would this thread ignore the riding a party member innuendo forever?

Coidzor

2014-01-26, 12:47 AM

Were I not to step in would this thread ignore the riding a party member innuendo forever?

I suppose we could get some Pervirtuoso into the mix.

Crake

2014-01-26, 12:56 AM

A Pixie would ride a Faerie Dragon into battle actually. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, pixies and faerie dragons are both small, so that wouldnt work, but I've considered playing a petal paladin on a faerie dragon who stacked charging damage. The only thing that stopped me was the realization that I couldn't actually get power attack due to the fact that petal's -8 str makes it pretty much impossible to get 13 str barring putting 18 into str then putting all your levelup points into str and finally getting power attack at 12

As for the druid option, since wildshape doesn't change your type, you could wildshape into a medium dragon and then enlarge person the druid for an enlarged medium dragon that'd be rideable. It's what I'm doing with my druid friend in one of my games right now actually.

Phelix-Mu

2014-01-26, 12:58 AM

Were I not to step in would this thread ignore the riding a party member innuendo forever?

The insinuation of a pixie and a kobold trying to pull off this...this...partnership...really put me off any kind of joking on the matter.

Kafros

2014-02-28, 12:44 AM

3WhiteFox3

2014-02-28, 01:10 AM

Play a wizard, kill a dragon and animate it as a simulacrum... you can do that on level 11. Size will be the same of the dragon you killed.
if you dont like the illussion of a dragon you can always clone one... though you might have trouble controling the clone.
option 3 make a dragonorb then summon as many dragons you like (provided you can beat the willsave to control them)

As a corollary you can also add some age advancement cheese (bestow greater curse is a favorite) to artificially increase the age category of your simulacrum to help him scale with level.

Phelix-Mu

2014-02-28, 01:20 AM

Thought I'd tack on the rather impractical answer of breaking WBL over your knee and buying a wyrm rod of the appropriate alignment. Nifty, because it can't be killed and has to obey you, from what I recall. However, it's from the Epic Level Handbook, so only silly DMs would allow you early access to it (coincidentally the same silly DMs that might fall for allowing you to snap WBL into little pieces).:smallsmile:

Drachasor

2014-02-28, 01:35 AM

Play a wizard, kill a dragon and animate it as a simulacrum... you can do that on level 11. Size will be the same of the dragon you killed.

Level 13, Simulacrum is a level 7 spell.

Simulacrum is definitely one of the cheapest methods, though if used in combat a lot you'll have to replace it now and then.

At 17th level you can use Ice Assassin. You can also use Astral Projection to preserve your life and your Dragon's, since if the projection takes damage that doesn't do anything to the original.

Another option is to get a minion in some manner and then use Polymorph Any Object. Done right and that's a permanent mount or at least one that lasts a long time with a fast fly speed and good attacks. You won't get all of the dragon abilities though.

Phelix-Mu

2014-02-28, 01:41 AM

There's also a single-use item in Frostburn that lets you make a simulacrum. I never seem to be able to remember the name of it, though.

Kafros

2014-02-28, 02:49 AM

Level 13, Simulacrum is a level 7 spell.

Simulacrum is definitely one of the cheapest methods, though if used in combat a lot you'll have to replace it now and then.

At 17th level you can use Ice Assassin. You can also use Astral Projection to preserve your life and your Dragon's, since if the projection takes damage that doesn't do anything to the original.

Another option is to get a minion in some manner and then use Polymorph Any Object. Done right and that's a permanent mount or at least one that lasts a long time with a fast fly speed and good attacks. You won't get all of the dragon abilities though.

Really thanks... I am sure i saw it as level 6 in a number of occations maybe it was adjusted, in either case you can make mounts not just for yourself with it but for the whole group. Its ages though since I got a player smart enough to do tricks like that. Though keep in mind the dm might just get furious enough to have the nerf but hitting your head in real life.