TO: Beholder Mage, better with StP Erudite?

[Segev]

There are a few ways to build into a Beholder Mage; I tend to discount the ones that rely on "PAO twice for permanent duration," as the first one's duration would expire and then truncate the duration of the second to "finite."

The best entry I've found (before, perhaps, now) is Elan Psion 5, going for Metamorphic Transfer at level 5 so that you can take on "Eye Rays" and "Anti-Magic Eye" when you pay a higher-level wizard to cast Polymorph Any Object on you to become a Beholder. This gives you the tools you need to be able to sacrifice those features for Beholder Mage features.

I typically take the build into Cerebromancer as soon as possible, since Beholder Mage levels on their own only give more Str to your Mage Hand, and being a level 20 caster and level 13 manifester by character level 15 is pretty nice. Especially when you can cast one spell of every level each round as a free action, and then use your Standard to perform Psionics. (With additional Psi optimization, you can, of course, extend this further.)

I've never been fond of the Erudite, as it struck me as a clunky way to make a "psionic wizard" by somebody who didn't like that Psionics were designed for Psions to be the closest analogue to Wizards. I like the StP Erudite even less because I can't think of how it could be used WITHOUT being horribly cheesy, and it's not as interesting a cheese as the Beholder Mage and other TO builds.

That said, I am now driven to wonder: Would this theoretical Beholder Mage build be better with StP Erudite? I can never remember what the StP Erudite gives up that is supposedly worth the massive power boost of his signature gained ability. Would an StP Erudite back up a Beholder Mage chassis better than a Psion? Is there additional cheese worth considering in sharing spells to powers (and maybe vice-versa, if anybody has a way?) between the two classes?

Or is this not a significant gain (or even a net loss) in overall optimality over using Psion for the first 5 levels? (Psion does get a bonus feat at level 5, which is handy for Metamorphic Transfer.)

[Uncle Pine]

Generally, StP Erudite > Psion. But a Psion with access to a StP Erudite and psychic chirurgery > StP Erudite. You do the math.

[bekeleven]

There are a few ways to build into a Beholder Mage; I tend to discount the ones that rely on "PAO twice for permanent duration," as the first one's duration would expire and then truncate the duration of the second to "finite."If I cast Spell Enhancer (+2 CL/1R) followed by Mage Armor, the mage armor doesn't lose 2 hours of duration the round after I cast it. This is because spells only count their initial conditions for deciding something like duration.

Even were that not true, you could treat the second PAO as satisfying its own condition, like ToB prerequisites. When the first one expires, the second one's duration only remains permanent if your type is already aberration. It is... because the second PAO is keeping it there.

[Segev]

Generally, StP Erudite > Psion. But a Psion with access to a StP Erudite and psychic chirurgery > StP Erudite. You do the math.

Isn't Psychic Chirurgery more XP-expensive than StP Erudite's learning technique?

[Uncle Pine]

Isn't Psychic Chirurgery more XP-expensive than StP Erudite's learning technique?

It is, but since you specified "TO" I assumed that tricks like doing the right wight thing were perfectly legitimate.


To Do the Wight Thing, one must have a critter under their control who can apply one negative level (such as a Wight, but anything that can apply one negative level at a time, with a type of negative level that will convert to real level loss, will do) and Psionic Restoration to generate 'free' XP. This can be done as soon as level 11 if one has a Ring of Spell Storing (which should also store powers, due to transparency).
Powers: Psionic Restoration
Feats:
Critters: 1 Wight or Similar
Items: 1 Ring of Spell Storing
Method:
1. Store Psionic Restoration in the Ring of Spell Storing
2. Have the critter hit you with one negative level
3. Wait until the time rolls around for the Fort save on that negative level, and voluntarily fail it, converting it to real level loss, setting your XP to halfway between the level you were and the level before (e.g., if you were level 12, and got drained to 11th, you're halfway between 11th and 12th - 60,500 xp, which is 5,500 xp in excess of 11th).
4. Spend your newly-unlocked XP however you like (5,500 xp, for the character who starts this as a 12th level Egoist) - but watch the time limit!
5. Before the time limit expires (1 day per manifester level), use Psionic Restoration to wipe away the level loss, which brings you "up to the minimum number of experience points necessary to advance it to the next higher level".
Minimum Level: 11 (With Ring of Spell Storing, otherwise 12)

[Segev]

Hm, fair enough. I wasn't thinking about XP-spending tricks, but they do tend to be valid in otherwise-unspecified TO. I will confess that I was thinking in terms of what I outlined and little more; "theoretical" is largely to avoid arguments over whether any DM in his right mind would let you try this build at all.

Of course, anything even considering an Erudite has to answer the question as to just how many unique powers/day they really have, so...

(And holy cow, no matter how you read it, they are restricted to practical uselessness until level 5 or so. Even a mid-op fighter or low-op wizard is better.)

But yes, I can see how, if XP is made a non-issue, a Psion with Psychic Chirugery is going to be better off than a straight StP Erudite...especially with access to such an Erudite. (If Metaconcert had better, clearer rules for whether the "gestalt entity" uses all its component people's actions or had its own separate ones, it would be a good work-around for erudites, too, though. But that's a different TO problem.)

[Chronos]

Once you have access to arcane spells (either by being a StP yourself or by psychic chiurgury), you should take the Body Outside Body spell ASAP. Then, "cast" it. Your copies can't cast spells, but they can use psionic powers. Have them use Psychic Reformation to get whatever power you want, then chiurgury to give it to you. They're spending their own XP, not yours, so it doesn't cost you anything.

[HaikenEdge]

Isn't the Spell to Power Erudite generally better for everything, given, with the right sources (say, an archivist/sublime chord/mythic theurge with Alternate Spell Source), the Spell-to-power Erudite can pretty much learn Divine spells as well as Arcane spells, since the Divine Spells can be converted into arcane spells, and isn't that why spell-to-power erudites are so powerful?

[Uncle Pine]

Isn't the Spell to Power Erudite generally better for everything, given, with the right sources (say, an archivist/sublime chord/mythic theurge with Alternate Spell Source), the Spell-to-power Erudite can pretty much learn Divine spells as well as Arcane spells, since the Divine Spells can be converted into arcane spells, and isn't that why spell-to-power erudites are so powerful?

Yes and yes. However, a Psion with access to a StP Erudite will always best said StP Erudite because the Psion can do everything the StP Erudite can do whithout the unique power/day limitation. (Obviously there are ways to circumvent this limitations for the StP Erudite, be it Metaconcert, Shalantha's delicate disk and/or something else, but the sheer fact that the Psion doesn't even have to bother setting up tricks to cast -every- power -and- spell -every- day makes him the best "caster").

[HaikenEdge]

Yes and yes. However, a Psion with access to a StP Erudite will always best said StP Erudite because the Psion can do everything the StP Erudite can do whithout the unique power/day limitation. (Obviously there are ways to circumvent this limitations for the StP Erudite, be it Metaconcert, Shalantha's delicate disk and/or something else, but the sheer fact that the Psion doesn't even have to bother setting up tricks to cast -every- power -and- spell -every- day makes him the best "caster").

While true, with a spell-to-power erudite, the psion isn't getting any of those spells as powers, and since I'm not sure RAW would let you multiclass Psion and Erudite (since Erudite is a variant psion, and you can't multiclass a Spirit Lion barbarian with a regular barbarian, even though the Spirit Lion barbarian is a variant of the normal barbarian), the only way a PC psion is going to get the spells as powers from an erudite is either (A) retraining into a erudite and then teleporting through time to teach themselves said spells as powers, or (B) meeting a spell-to-power erudite who isn't the PC. The former case runs into the problem of possibly killing yourself due to the wording of the spell and the way it can be interpreted by the DM, and the latter requires DM fiat, making the latter difficult without a DM who is compliant with the player's wishes.

Besides, a lot of people don't realize a 20th level spell-to-power erudite gets 99 unique powers per day, due to the following (bolded and italicized for emphasis):


Unique Powers/Day: An erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level. Thus, a 1st-level erudite can manifest one unique power per day; however, the total number of powers he can manifest per day is limited only by his daily power points (that is, the erudite could manifest the unique power as many times per day as he has power points to pay for it). An erudite simply knows his powers; they are part of his repertoire. He does not need to prepare them, though he must get a good night's sleep to regain all spent power points the next day.

I mean, if you need more than 11 powers of each power level per day, there might be a problem beyond, "I have access to all my powers all the time".

And now I have "I've got 99 powers but true mind switch ain't one" playing in my head.

[Uncle Pine]

While true, with a spell-to-power erudite, the psion isn't getting any of those spells as powers, and since I'm not sure RAW would let you multiclass Psion and Erudite (since Erudite is a variant psion, and you can't multiclass a Spirit Lion barbarian with a regular barbarian, even though the Spirit Lion barbarian is a variant of the normal barbarian), the only way a PC psion is going to get the spells as powers from an erudite is either (A) retraining into a erudite and then teleporting through time to teach themselves said spells as powers, or (B) meeting a spell-to-power erudite who isn't the PC. The former case runs into the problem of possibly killing yourself due to the wording of the spell and the way it can be interpreted by the DM, and the latter requires DM fiat, making the latter difficult without a DM who is compliant with the player's wishes.

I'll explain it carefully and thoroughly.
Let's say we have two characters: a Psion 17 and a StP Erudite 17 which also gave up his other 1st level bonus feat to be a Magic Mantled Erudite. The StP Erudite knows every existing power and has converted every existing spell into a power.


You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power you can add to your repertoire.

The StP Erudite then manifests Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) NI times and transfers such knowledge to the Psion. The Psion can now manifest every existing power and spell (converted into a power) without restrictions.
This works because when a StP Erudite converts a spell into a power, it really does it. That spell is now a power for him and thus he can transfer it with Psychic Chirurgery.


If desired, you can use this power to directly transfer knowledge of a power you know to another psionic character.




Besides, a lot of people don't realize a 20th level spell-to-power erudite gets 99 unique powers per day, due to the following (bolded and italicized for emphasis):



I mean, if you need more than 11 powers of each power level per day, there might be a problem beyond, "I have access to all my powers all the time".

And now I have "I've got 99 powers but true mind switch ain't one" playing in my head.

Text trumps table after all. :smallwink:
Nevertheless a restriction, even a tiny, meaningless, trivial or fluff one, it's always a restriction. Thus Psion > StP Erudite, as far as TO is concerned.

[HaikenEdge]

I'll explain it carefully and thoroughly.
Let's say we have two characters: a Psion 17 and a StP Erudite 17 which also gave up his other 1st level bonus feat to be a Magic Mantled Erudite. The StP Erudite knows every existing power and has converted every existing spell into a power.
Please don't condescend to me; I don't need to be treated as though I'm slow, because, frankly speaking, psionics is one of the areas of D&D I am the most familiar with, and this is a familiarity that has allowed me to do some really insane things back on the WotC CO boards.



The StP Erudite then manifests Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) NI times and transfers such knowledge to the Psion. The Psion can now manifest every existing power and spell (converted into a power) without restrictions.
This works because when a StP Erudite converts a spell into a power, it really does it. That spell is now a power for him and thus he can transfer it with Psychic Chirurgery.
No can do pre-epic, due to the following text from the Erudite description (bold, italics and underline for emphasis):


Learning Discipline Powers: An erudite can learn discipline powers only by directly learning a power from another's repertoire, learning it from a power stone, or taking the Expanded Knowledge feat. In any case, an erudite can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power he can manifest.

The only time an erudite can learn Psychic Chirurgery is post-epic, at which point, you might as well just develop your own powers using epic seeds, and produce more game-breaking powers. Even then, because Improved Spell Capacity and Epic Spellcasting both don't have RAW psionics equals, that might be out of the Erudite's abilities anyways, making the Erudite rely on Epic Expanded Knowledge. Either way, this can't be done pre-epic.



Text trumps table after all. :smallwink:
Nevertheless a restriction, even a tiny, meaningless, trivial or fluff one, it's always a restriction. Thus Psion > StP Erudite, as far as TO is concerned.

Thus, StP Erudite superior to a Psion pre-epic. Erudite might have a limited number of unique powers per day, but a pre-epic Psion is not getting those spells without the help of a post-epic character, at which point it's a completely different ball game.

[Segev]

Actually, any Erudite of level 17 or higher can manifest Psychic Chirugery from the powers known of a cooperative Telepath (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown) who knows it.

So if your hypothetical Psion-who-would-learn-all is a Telepath, he makes sure HE knows Psychic Chirugery, and then lets his StP Erudite friend manifest it from his powers known to transplant it to the Erudite, at which point the Erudite now knows it.

[papr_weezl8472]

The only time an erudite can learn Psychic Chirurgery is post-epic, at which point, you might as well just develop your own powers using epic seeds, and produce more game-breaking powers. Even then, because Improved Spell Capacity and Epic Spellcasting both don't have RAW psionics equals, that might be out of the Erudite's abilities anyways, making the Erudite rely on Epic Expanded Knowledge. Either way, this can't be done pre-epic.

The StP Erudite learns Psychic Chirurgery via Psychic Chirurgery, which explicitly allows teaching powers a manifester could not otherwise learn as long as they can manifest powers of that level. Also, note that Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spell Capacity do have RAW equivalents in Epic Manifestation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm) and Improved Manifestation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedManifestation), respectively.

Edit: never mind about Improved Manifestation, it doesn't work that way. The other methods still work, though.

[Segev]

The StP Erudite learns Psychic Chirurgery via Psychic Chirurgery, which explicitly allows teaching powers a manifester could not otherwise learn as long as they can manifest powers of that level. Also, note that Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spell Capacity do have RAW equivalents in Epic Manifestation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm) and Improved Manifestation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedManifestation), respectively.

*facepalm* True, our Telepath could just teach it to the Erudite; no need for manifesting from another's powers known.

[HaikenEdge]

Actually, any Erudite of level 17 or higher can manifest Psychic Chirugery from the powers known of a cooperative Telepath (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown) who knows it.

So if your hypothetical Psion-who-would-learn-all is a Telepath, he makes sure HE knows Psychic Chirugery, and then lets his StP Erudite friend manifest it from his powers known to transplant it to the Erudite, at which point the Erudite now knows it.

Kind of debatable, due to this part:


Upon successfully making contact with another willing psionic character or creature and learning what he can of one power in particular, the character can immediately attempt to manifest that power even if he doesn’t know it (and assuming he has power points left for the day).
A strict DM would read that as a form of learning, making it not work. A looser interpretation (and probably a RAI one) would allow it, but it really requires a the DM to okay it. The problem is the keyword "learning"; an erudite can only learn a discipline power if it is at least one level lower than the highest level power the erudite can manifest, and manifesting from another creature requires "learning" what they can of the power.

To me, that requires a little too much DM involvement to be 100% go every time.

[Gemini476]

I mean, if you need more than 11 powers of each power level per day, there might be a problem beyond, "I have access to all my powers all the time".

Well... If you know every single power and spell ever, you might start to feel that. Especially since that's a daily limit. I'm sure that you could find more than eleven different powers of a specific level that you would like to cast daily.

It's a big limit, but it's still a limit. The Psion is objectively better by virtue of not having that limit. Once they both know all spells and powers and have NI PP, the only real difference between them is that the Psion has no limit on the use of its powers.

[Segev]

Kind of debatable, due to this part:

"learning what he can of the power"

A strict DM would read that as a form of learning, making it not work. A looser interpretation (and probably a RAI one) would allow it, but it really requires a the DM to okay it. The problem is the keyword "learning"; an erudite can only learn a discipline power if it is at least one level lower than the highest level power the erudite can manifest, and manifesting from another creature requires "learning" what they can of the power.

To me, that requires a little too much DM involvement to be 100% go every time.
No, that requires a DM deliberately mis-reading the ruling. It doesn't say he "learns" the power; it says he "learn[s]...of" the power. The two phrases mean quite different things, especially when the former is in context of adding something to powers-known. Since the rules being quoted go on to talk about being able to manifest the power as if he knows it, it clearly means he is not learning it in a mechanical, add-it-to-his-powers-known sense.


Regardless, however, the Erudite doesn't actually need to do this, as somebody else noted: the Telepath can use Psychic Chirurgery to add Psychic Chirurgery to the Erudite's spells known list. It's a power no higher in level to the highest-level power a level 17+ Erudite knows (assuming said Erudite has not deliberately neglected to learn any 9th level powers).

[Uncle Pine]

Please don't condescend to me; I don't need to be treated as though I'm slow, because, frankly speaking, psionics is one of the areas of D&D I am the most familiar with, and this is a familiarity that has allowed me to do some really insane things back on the WotC CO boards.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be rude, but I thought I had to be a little more specific and underline/bold some parts of my reasoning because there seemed to be some misunderstanding about who were doing what in the whole "X learns Y powers from Z" shenanigan. I recognize I've been a bit too strict but it wasn't really my intention to condescend you.

Now, back on the topic:


No can do pre-epic, due to the following text from the Erudite description (bold, italics and underline for emphasis):


The only time an erudite can learn Psychic Chirurgery is post-epic, at which point, you might as well just develop your own powers using epic seeds, and produce more game-breaking powers. Even then, because Improved Spell Capacity and Epic Spellcasting both don't have RAW psionics equals, that might be out of the Erudite's abilities anyways, making the Erudite rely on Epic Expanded Knowledge. Either way, this can't be done pre-epic.
The StP Erudite can only learn a discipline power from another's repertoire, a power stone or taking the Expanded Knowledge feat if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power he can manifest, but as other's have noted he could learn 9th level discipline powers through Psychic Chirurgery, or his Psion buddy could be himself a Telepath with that power. I preferred to use a base Psion in my example (thus assuming that the StP Erudite already learned Psychic Chirurgery) to be as generic as possible.

EDIT: If you use Psychic Chirurgery to teach Psychic Chirurgery to the StP Erudite you don't need to refer to this general rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown), making the whole trick less dependant from DM's interpretation.