4E style balance 3.5/PF

[Flik9999]

Well it is impossible to truly achieve balance this way but here are some changes I thought of to make the game a bit more balanced.

Attacks
Full BAB classes: Unchanged
Middle BAB classes: Get a +1 bonus to bab every level but it starts at -1 (Esentially a -2 penalty) This BAB is used for feat prerequisits as well. For example a level 8 rogue would have a BAB of +6 and a level 10 one a BAB of +8. This change is in so that the accuracy difference between full and medium BAB classes stays the same
Low BAB classes:Get a +1 bonus to bab every level but it starts at -3 (Esentially a -4 penalty)

# Attacks: BAB still influences how many attacks you can make, they are all at the same bonus however. So a level 11 fighter would have a BAB of +11/+11/+11 but a level 11 cleric only +9/+9 and a level 11 wizard +7.

Defences
Gain a bonus to AC equal to your level. This makes defense actually an option.
Magic shields never give you a bonus to AC.

Hit points
Max hit points at level up (Max die roll + con modifer).
Start with Con score hit points + die maximum(So a fighter with 10 con would start with 20 hit points(D10+10) and a wizard with 18 con would start with 22 (D4+18). This represents that natural physicue would effect how tough you are.


Caster Basic Attacks
New Weapon:
Wand
Damage: 1D6
Crit: 20*2
Type: Exotic

Special: All caster classes are proficient with the wand and can use thier intelligence, wisdom or charisma for attack and damage rolls.

Caster classes such as wizards automatically gain proficiency with the wand.

Spellcasting
Level 6-9 spells do not exist. This stops casters being able to do everything all the other classes can at high levels.

Feats
Power attack has static -2 penalty to attack rolls and gives +1 damage for every 2 levels a character has. (+1/level for two handed weapons).

Monster Stats
Attack bonus: 4 + 1.5/level
AC: 14+1.5/level
Damage and saves stay the same.

So thoughts on this?




Edit: Would also work with classic (1E/2E)

[OrlockDelesian]

Well it is impossible to truly achieve balance this way but here are some changes I thought of to make the game a bit more balanced.

Attacks
Full BAB classes: Unchanged
Middle BAB classes: Get a +1 bonus to bab every level but it starts at -1 (Esentially a -2 penalty) This BAB is used for feat prerequisits as well. For example a level 8 rogue would have a BAB of +6 and a level 10 one a BAB of +8. This change is in so that the accuracy difference between full and medium BAB classes stays the same
Low BAB classes:Get a +1 bonus to bab every level but it starts at -3 (Esentially a -4 penalty)

Defences
Gain a bonus to AC equal to your level. This makes defense actually an option.
Magic shields never give you a bonus to AC.

Hit points
Max hit points at level up (Max die roll + con modifer).
Start with Con score hit points + die maximum(So a fighter with 10 con would start with 20 hit points(D10+10) and a wizard with 18 con would start with 22 (D4+18). This represents that natural physicue would effect how tough you are.


Caster Basic Attacks
New Weapon:
Wand
Damage: 1D6
Crit: 20*2
Type: Exotic

Special: All caster classes are proficient with the wand and can use thier intelligence, wisdom or charisma for attack and damage rolls.

Caster classes such as wizards automatically gain proficiency with the wand.

Monster Stats
Attack bonus: 4 + 1.5/level
AC: 14+1.5/level
Damage and saves stay the same.

So thoughts on this?

Edit: Would also work with classic (1E/2E)



You are not making it more balanced.
You give even more options to game breaking classes (such as wizard) by giving him higher BAB more HPS and a new Usefull Weapon, while giving nothing at all to lower tier classes.

[Flik9999]

You are not making it more balanced.
You give even more options to game breaking classes (such as wizard) by giving him higher BAB more HPS and a new Usefull Weapon, while giving nothing at all to lower tier classes.

The lower tier classes are able to have defence now (With the formulae a fighter can only be hit on a 19 at max level by a level 20 monster). As they get a bonus equal to level as a bonus. Could just remove bonus spells to balance casters.

This was designed to balance out the lower levels of the game where a fighter can do more damage with his sword than a wizard can with a level 3 daily spell. The power curve in Pathfinder is wierd cos the low tier classes dominate at levels 1-5 and then it is somewhat balanced til about level 9ish and then the caster classes take over.


Edit: I know that the simple fix for balancing wizards at high level is just ban spells of level 6-9(They have to convert em down).

[Big Fau]

The lower tier classes are able to have defence now (With the formulae a fighter can only be hit on a 19 at max level by a level 20 monster). As they get a bonus equal to level as a bonus. Could just remove bonus spells to balance casters.

Higher numbers do not fix this game. Ever.

Even if every non-skill number on the 20th level Fighter's character sheet was a 100 at lowest he'd never break out of Tier 4.


This was designed to balance out the lower levels of the game where a fighter can do more damage with his sword than a wizard can with a level 3 daily spell. The power curve in Pathfinder is wierd cos the low tier classes dominate at levels 1-5 and then it is somewhat balanced til about level 9ish and then the caster classes take over.

Your assumption about class balance is incorrect, at least as far as 3.5 is concerned. A 1st level Wizard or Druid is ending encounters, and the Cleric is strictly superior to the Fighter at that level. For most campaigns, the noncasters can play ball until the casters hit 5th/6th, at which point the casters have little need for the noncasters.


Edit: I know that the simple fix for balancing wizards at high level is just ban spells of level 6-9(They have to convert em down).

That does absolutely nothing for the low-level imbalance.

More importantly, you're trying to turn an apple into an orange. 4E is nigh incompatible with 3.5 or PF, and your changes haven't done anything to make the systems more compatible.

[Flik9999]

Your assumption about class balance is incorrect, at least as far as 3.5 is concerned. A 1st level Wizard or Druid is ending encounters, and the Cleric is strictly superior to the Fighter at that level. For most campaigns, the noncasters can play ball until the casters hit 5th/6th, at which point the casters have little need for the noncasters.

Um explain how a level 1 wizard can end encounters. The fighter is strictly better until about level 5ish. Im experienced with pathfinder and fighters and barbarians seam to be the best class at that level. (Depends on how DMs run things I guess.) Even sleep isn't garanteed to work. A fighters greatsword does 2D6+6 at level one, thats a lot higher than the wizards 1D4+1 on a magic missile.

Clerics still good at that level though as they also have access to that 2D6+6 greatsword.

[Psyren]

Um explain how a level 1 wizard can end encounters.

Color Spray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm) and Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm) are the primary ones; Grease/Ray of Enfeeblement + crossbow can work in certain fights, and then we get into "beating" encounters by bypassing them, which is where stuff like Charm Person, Disguise Self, and even Expeditious Retreat come into play.

Of course, all that is just core and doesn't include fun stuff like Power Word Pain.

[Big Fau]

Um explain how a level 1 wizard can end encounters. The fighter is strictly better until about level 5ish. Im experienced with pathfinder and fighters and barbarians seam to be the best class at that level. (Depends on how DMs run things I guess.) Even sleep isn't garanteed to work. A fighters greatsword does 2D6+6 at level one, thats a lot higher than the wizards 1D4+1 on a magic missile.

Clerics still good at that level though as they also have access to that 2D6+6 greatsword.

Even if Sleep/Color Spray isn't guaranteed, neither is the Fighter's greatsword (and that's even less reliable, as it targets a form of defense that can be improved via Fighting Defensively/Total Defense). There are also ways to get 2nd level spells at 1st level, opening up a huge arsenal of encounter-ending spells. A Druid's Entangle spell is even better, as it neuters a huge area and has a good duration. The Animal Companion is far superior to the Fighter at 1st level, especially if it's a Riding Dog.

And, most importantly, direct damage is the absolute weakest thing a spellcaster can do with his spell slots. A Wizard should never prepare Magic Missile at 1st level, at least if he wants to cast spells for more than 2 encounters. If the Wizard has to deal damage, he should prepare the fore-mentioned Power Word Pain and just kill anything he goes up against.

You are basing your "fix" on anecdotal evidence. I'm just going to let you know that my opinion on your "fix" is based on 10+ years of documented analysis and research performed by hundreds of highly skilled players/DMs the world over.

[Tvtyrant]

Your assumption about class balance is incorrect, at least as far as 3.5 is concerned. A 1st level Wizard or Druid is ending encounters, and the Cleric is strictly superior to the Fighter at that level. For most campaigns, the noncasters can play ball until the casters hit 5th/6th, at which point the casters have little need for the noncasters.

Um explain how a level 1 wizard can end encounters. The fighter is strictly better until about level 5ish. Im experienced with pathfinder and fighters and barbarians seam to be the best class at that level. (Depends on how DMs run things I guess.) Even sleep isn't garanteed to work. A fighters greatsword does 2D6+6 at level one, thats a lot higher than the wizards 1D4+1 on a magic missile.

Clerics still good at that level though as they also have access to that 2D6+6 greatsword.

Because damage is simply a worthless indicator of power in 3.5. If you get knocked onconcious for 5 rounds, you are dead.

[The Trickster]

The lower tier classes are able to have defence now (With the formulae a fighter can only be hit on a 19 at max level by a level 20 monster). As they get a bonus equal to level as a bonus. Could just remove bonus spells to balance casters.

Another issue is the lack of "threat/hate" a character can have. I can only think of two ways to "taunt" an enemy (the knight's class ability and the Goad feat), and they aren't that wonderful. Building a defensive character is only useful if things are trying to hit you.