Do Greatswords Suck?

[Lorick]

So I rolled up my first D&D character: A paladin with a greatsword. First session was solely character creation, and the munchkin of our group told me I was being unoptimized (his actual choice of words were "playing the game wrong") both in terms of class and weapon. Now I get that for paladin, as I've read about D&D for a bit, and know they're low tiered and are MAD (though, without playing, am not sure how this works in practice. It's not that bad, is it?). Why are greatswords a bad choice, though?

[bekeleven]

Greatswords are probably my favorite non-reach melee weapon in the PHB. Sure, some reach weapons are better, but 2D6 damage and a 2-number crit range is respectable. (I tend to prefer crit ranges over multipliers unless I'm running Surge of Fortune in my build.)

That said... reach weapons are quite good. Plenty worth considering. What level are you playing?

[(Un)Inspired]

First things first, Beat the crap out of that munchkin for telling you you're playing wrong. The only way to play dungeons and dragons wrong is to tell other people who to make and play their characters.

Once you've giving this guy a savage thrashing, don't worry. The greatsword is a fine weapon for a paladin. Riding on your mount with a lance and spirited charging rhino rushing pouncing might be the most damage a paladin can do but its ridiculous to say that that what you NEED to do as a paladin.

What matters is that you like the idea you ahve for your character. Take that Idea and try to make it as strong as possible but don't put up with someone telling you you're playing wrong.

Seriously, Screw that guy who told you that you were playing wrong. That's unbelievably rude and frankly incorrect.

[AmberVael]

Why are greatswords a bad choice, though?

They're not. If you want to deal damage, greatsword is a pretty standard choice. Certainly better than a lot of other options.

There are other weapons which can be better for certain strategies, but if your plan is to charge in at the enemy screaming, you can't really go wrong with the greatsword.

[Amphetryon]

So I rolled up my first D&D character: A paladin with a greatsword. First session was solely character creation, and the munchkin of our group told me I was being unoptimized (his actual choice of words were "playing the game wrong") both in terms of class and weapon. Now I get that for paladin, as I've read about D&D for a bit, and know they're low tiered and are MAD (though, without playing, am not sure how this works in practice. (It's not that bad, is it?). Why are greatswords a bad choice, though?

1. You're not "playing the game wrong" by creating the Character you want to play.

2. Paladins can be optimized to do ZOMG damage, but that generally involves stacking Charge multipliers and/or adding additional spells to their list. For the former approach, a Heavy Lance has a relatively small but measurable advantage in the damage it can do on a Charge, while for the latter, the spells are more important than the weapon choice. (They can still often be outshined by other Character Classes - and we'll be happy to point out stronger options that are similarly flavored - but if the concept you want is Paladin, you're not "wrong" for that desire).

3. In the majority of cases, the base Weapon and its unmodified Damage is the least consequential choice for how useful a Weapon actually is. Critical modifiers, special qualities like Reach or Trip, and the various bonuses you can add to the Attack/Damage rolls will matter far more in the long run than whether your weapon does 1d6 or 2d6.

[Scow2]

Greatsword is the best damage-dealing weapon in the game short of a mounted lance, though a feat-supported Falchion in Pathfinder surpasses it at high levels.

[madtinker]

I almost always use greatswords. Its the classic weapon, in my opinion. If you want to increase damage, consider the power attack feat.

You're only playing the game wrong if you're not having fun.

[Lorick]

We're playing level 1.

As far as the guy being rude, that's his personality. He's sort of the lovable jerk type, which is really hard to describe now that I try, but I think everyone's met one.

[Heliomance]

Greatsword is the best damage-dealing weapon in the game short of a mounted lance, though a feat-supported Falchion in Pathfinder surpasses it at high levels.

False. Minotaur Greathammer is better in every possible respect, aside from being Exotic.

[Blackhawk748]

If i recall correctly Greatswords are the primary choice for two-handed chargers, with Greataxes and Scythes coming in second. Also a Pally with a Greatsword is just cool to look at, so grab Charging Smite and Battle Blessing and show that, incredibly rude, munchkin what for!

[Zharradan Marr]

With a base damage roll of 2d6, and Strength bonus times 1.5 on top of that, you can pretty much kill everything you encounter on level 1 with one hit. So don't worry about what that guy said.

[chaos_redefined]

First things first, Beat the crap out of that munchkin for telling you you're playing wrong. The only way to play dungeons and dragons wrong is to tell other people who to make and play their characters.

Once you've giving this guy a savage thrashing, don't worry. The greatsword is a fine weapon for a paladin. Riding on your mount with a lance and spirited charging rhino rushing pouncing might be the most damage a paladin can do but its ridiculous to say that that what you NEED to do as a paladin.

What matters is that you like the idea you ahve for your character. Take that Idea and try to make it as strong as possible but don't put up with someone telling you you're playing wrong.

Seriously, Screw that guy who told you that you were playing wrong. That's unbelievably rude and frankly incorrect.

Everything this guy said. The appropriate statement should be: "Hey dude, I know you want to play a paladin, but if you want the holy warrior sent to represent your god, I could help you make a cleric who does the same job, but better. It's up to you, though, and if you are happy with the paladin, then I'm not going to stop you."

Later on, "Are you particularly attached to that great sword? Coz _ is a better weapon mechanically for what you are doing."

The only situation where I'll actively push a player to change his plans is if he isn't contributing. (If you are not contributing, then I need a good reason to not leave you in town where you are less likely to get eaten by demons or the like. Adventuring is a risky business and you being unable to help with the business makes you a liability. And then you want gold?)

If you are happy playing a paladin with a greatsword, and you are making a meaningful contribution to the party, then you are playing the game right.

[Big Fau]

We're playing level 1.


The only way it's bad is if you took Weapon Finesse or managed to get Improved Trip. The former means your Strength likely isn't high enough to make good use of the weapon, and the latter means you don't have the ability to trip enemies with your weapon (a very useful thing for a tripper to have, but you never said you were one so it's a moot point).

The Greatsword is a golden standard for basic weapons in D&D. Good damage for low-levels, compatible with a common tactic (Power Attack), OK crit range, and easily affordable at the lowest levels.

[eggynack]

False. Minotaur Greathammer is better in every possible respect, aside from being Exotic.
That's a pretty huge respect, and he said best damage dealing weapon, rather than most damage dealing weapon, so I'd say true unless you're getting the proficiency for free or really cheap. I prefer a guisarme though. Lose two damage, gain reach and tripping. Great deal.

Edit: Though the term "best damage dealing weapon" is a bit iffy, given that all weapons are damage dealing weapons. I'd prefer to go with, "The best weapon for whom the core engagement is its high damage."

[Subaru Kujo]

We're playing level 1.


Greatswords are more than sufficient for that level, and they are good weapons besides that. Can't really shake a weapon that deals an average of 7 damage on its own and has a 10% crit range that easily.

[Phelix-Mu]

Another benefit is that they are very common weapons. In the event that a DM likes handing out magic weapons for the party to keep (as opposed to sell and invest in custom items), magical greatswords are pretty common. I think the Random Weapon table in the DMG actually backs this up, too.

[Blackhawk748]

Take Monkey Grip and use a shield and watch his head explode lol


Another benefit is that they are very common weapons. In the event that a DM likes handing out magic weapons for the party to keep (as opposed to sell and invest in custom items), magical greatswords are pretty common. I think the Random Weapon table in the DMG actually backs this up, too.

Also this, the most common magic weapons i've seen are (in rough order); Longswords, Bastard Swords, Longbows, Greataxes, and Greatswords. So they make the top 5 for prebuilt magic weapons

[HunterOfJello]

Statistically, greatswords have the second best damage return out of all of the melee weapons in the core books. The one weapon that does higher damage overall is the Scythe, but the choice between the greatsword and scythe is really the choice between critting for a lot of extra damage on a rare occasion and critting for decent damage more often. If you want reliability, then go with the greatsword.

(I'm basing my info on statistics I read about in a neverwinter nights FAQ a long time ago: http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/188666-neverwinter-nights/faqs/45996 )

Paladin is a lower tier class, but I think they rate higher than Fighter overall and they get some nice support in splat books. They're also very good at low levels. If you have a decent charisma score then you'll likely have decent AC, good attack, good damage, and possible the highest saves in the group at lvl 2. In a core-only game they aren't that bad at all. My personal dislike of the class has absolutely nothing to do with their class features.

It's worth noting that paladins can have extremely high damage if they decide to use a lance while charging on their mount. (Just saying.)

~~~~~~

If the game is calling for and requires heavy optimization (which most games do not), then the choice optimizers would suggest is using a reach weapon like a longspear or ranseur along with spiked gauntlets and/or spiked armor. This lets them attack at 10ft away and at 5ft away without spending a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

I would suggest against that setup purely due to the fact that I think a paladin running around in spiked armor is retarded and might go completely against the spirit of the class.

~~~~~~~

If you're able to use material from other books or even if you aren't but your DM is fine with you taking a basic weapon non-magical weapon from another book, I would suggest buying a Truncheon from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's a one-handed martial weapon that does 1d8 damage for a medium creature, weights 12lbs, has x2 crit, does bludgeoning damage, and most importantly it does nonlethal damage only. This is a great option for a paladin-type character to get at lower levels since they can incapacitate a target without seriously or permanently harming them. (Read up on non-lethal damage if you aren't familiar with it.)


Take Monkey Grip and use a shield and watch his head explode lol

Pretty much.

Lorick, if you came to us and said you wanted to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Monkey Grip, and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, then we would need to sit down and have a talk. When you say that you're going to use a Greatsword, all that tells me is that you either have a good eye for weapons or you picked a default choice that is effective and useful instead of trying something that sounded cool but was ****ty instead.

[Agincourt]

Greatswords are more than sufficient for that level, and they are good weapons besides that. Can't really shake a weapon that deals an average of 7 damage on its own and has a 10% crit range that easily.

Agree completely. You are free to later change to a lance or whatever you decide for your character. At level 1, greatsword is hard to beat. It doesn't take a precious feat to use and it works well with Power Attack. You can always decide later that your character prefers a different weapon, but at level 1 you're basically right out of the academy.

[Coidzor]

Just make sure that you've got a morningstar or something to help cover bludgeoning and piercing damage for when slashing just won't cut it.

[Amphetryon]

Take Monkey Grip and use a shield and watch his head explode lol


Please note that Monkey Grip, as presented in Complete Warrior, doesn't let you do this.

[Blackhawk748]

Also paladins are a solid martial class, they can get absolutely nuts with a lot of work, and pretty good with some basic work. Also define your paladin code with your DM, this will stop headaches later. I recommend a simple 5 rule code, give it to your DM for approval. Something like, must donate 10% of loot to the church, must spend at least one hour a day praying, etc etc


Please note that Monkey Grip, as presented in Complete Warrior, doesn't let you do this.

Wait really?

Edit: i am incorrect, i guess my group just extended the logic there. Though our change does make it a better feat

[Juntao112]

We're playing level 1.

As far as the guy being rude, that's his personality. He's sort of the lovable jerk type, which is really hard to describe now that I try, but I think everyone's met one.

We could help you make him cry.

My actual advice would be to take the feat Law Devotion and Power Attack to use in conjunction with your Greatsword.

Get Awesome Smite later.

[(Un)Inspired]

We're playing level 1.

As far as the guy being rude, that's his personality. He's sort of the lovable jerk type, which is really hard to describe now that I try, but I think everyone's met one.

Then you're personality should be that you karate chops "lovable" jerks.

EDIT: preferably in the bollocks.

[Lorick]

Thank you all for your answers. I'll enjoy my paladin. And again, before wishing ill-will, the player really isn't that bad. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a weapon that was obviously superior before getting started.


We could help you make him cry.

My actual advice would be to take the feat Law Devotion and Power Attack to use in conjunction with your Greatsword.

Get Awesome Smite later.

I do enjoy making him cry. What is this Law Devotion feat you speak of?

[Coidzor]

Then you're personality should be that you karate chops "lovable" jerks.

EDIT: preferably in the bollocks.

That's just awkward, either in the movement itself or how you'd have to position them first.

[Amphetryon]

Thank you all for your answers. I'll enjoy my paladin. And again, before wishing ill-will, the player really isn't that bad. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a weapon that was obviously superior before getting started.



I do enjoy making him cry. What is this Law Devotion feat you speak of?

Law Devotion is a Feat in Complete Champion. Paladins can use it relatively well because they can use Turn Undead.

[Coidzor]

I do enjoy making him cry. What is this Law Devotion feat you speak of?

It gets you a bonus on your attack rolls or AC in exchange for uses of Turn Undead for the short version. So they were suggesting using it to increase the amount you could power attack by and still hit reliably.

[lsfreak]

I'm going to go against the grain and say, at 1st level, you're probably better off with a guisarme (or other reach weapon, but 2d4 gives you nice reliable damage), and spiked gauntlets for when you can't 5-foot away from someone and smack them. Because 1st level is rocket tag, and getting an AoO and possibly knocking someone out of the fight before they can even swing is a lifesaver. Also much more affordable than a greatsword if your DM makes you stick with starting gold, the 150 gold is just enough for a greatsword + chain shirt and nothing else, and if you're rolling, half the time you can't even afford that.

Different DMs play the first levels differently, though, and unless you've got a really sadistic (or really inexperienced) DM it's not likely to make a big difference. Outside of first level, I'd absolutely pick greatsword as my general weapon-of-choice. Your "munchkin" friend kinda sounds like one of those munchkins. The ones who get most of their information from misunderstood internet discussions and cognative biases.

[Sith_Happens]

I think everything's pretty much been covered over the course of the thread, so to summarize:

The greatsword is pretty much the go-to weapon for hitting things really hard on foot while adjacent to them. Any suboptimality comes from the fact that there are other, somewhat better tactics than that one. Key word "somewhat;" hitting-things-really-hard-on-foot-while-adjacent-to-them is one of the easier tactics to get as much bang for your buck out of as you'll need in most campaigns.

[Pex]

You are playing the game wrong. You're playing with a person who tells you are playing the game wrong. Ask the DM for help to play the game better by not having you associate with people who tell you are playing the game wrong. Once the person who tells you are playing the game wrong is no longer playing the game with you, you will find that you will quickly be playing the game correctly.

As for the greatsword, it's a fine weapon to use. It doesn't need defending unless that's the particular enchantment you happen to want on it. As a paladin, though, your ultimate goal is a holy avenger greatsword.

[Zombulian]

We're playing level 1.

As far as the guy being rude, that's his personality. He's sort of the lovable jerk type, which is really hard to describe now that I try, but I think everyone's met one.

Nah I totally get that, most of my friends are sort of like that. I am as well. Which leads me to the question, did he say "Oy ur doin it wrong m8" or "Hey idiot learn how to play the game right." Because though they are basically the same, it can make a world of difference.

On topic, nah he's pretty much wrong about the Greatsword. They're awesome, big heavy swords that do good damage and have a higher than normal crit chance. Later on you will be doing tons of damage with your power attack + smite. The only thing I could think he would see as better would be if you got a reach weapon or a lance for charging, but seeing as you currently are lvl 1 and don't have your Paladin Special Mount, I see no reason for you to lug a lance around.

[Irk]

Hold on, I've got a funny idea. Try a Paladin with the half orc (http://marksworld.zeemer.com/files/Racial%20Substitution.html#25)and harmonious knight variants (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) (download champions of valor and search it). Be a desert Half orc (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Desert_Half-Orcs) so you don't have a cha penalty. Take the feat power attack and a flaw for Martial study (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/martial-study--1879/) (sapphire nightmare blade (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/sapphire-nightmare-blade--3637/)) and able learner (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-destiny--81/able-learner--16/), which you can take since you are half human and races of destiny says you can. Put a bunch of ranks in iaijatsu focus (http://dndtools.eu/skills/iaijutsu-focus/) (now a class skill) and concentration, which your pumped con bonus will add to. Now yo can power attack and activate iaijatsu focus with sapphire nightmare blade and deal an extra 2d6 damage, maybe 3d6. you'll get an extra +3 damage from your alternate class features, and power attack should add another +2 damage. Actually now that I think about it, it isn't optimal, just overly complicated, but it could be fun. Also, your 'loving her' is still incorrect, you can't play the game wrong because all that matter is that you have fun.


Here is just another idea, be an archer paladin. Elf paladin (http://marksworld.zeemer.com/files/Racial%20Substitution.html#8) allows you to make a ranged smite. Be a desert fey touched dragon born elf for +2 dexterity and +2 charisma. Take charming the arrow (to be more cha SAD). maybe take extra smite twice from flaws and…. actually that's not going anywhere, just do the first one.


Actually, maybe try to take combat expertise from a flaw, Improved trip from a flaw and power attack. use some sort of pole arm and just go to town. Use the harmonious knight and half orc paladins just because they're better. Be a desert half orc with fey touched. Have fun.

EDIT: either way, consider extra smite from a flaw if anything

[Chronos]

An important note here: "Munchkin" is not the same thing as "optimizer", and in fact, a large proportion of munchkins suck at optimizing. Munchkins are characterized by their attempt at optimizing power over all else, but they very frequently fail in that attempt. The Monkey Grip feat, mentioned earlier in the thread, is a case in point: A great many of the people who take that feat are munchkins, and it's worthless.

[Twilightwyrm]

Greatswords do not "suck", nor are they even unoptimized. In fact, they are generally the weapon of choice for any THF build that it not going for reach or mounted combat. Trippers will want Spiked Chains or Guisarme (or some such), but I'll assume you are not going that route. If you are willing to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bastard Swords (YES BASTARD SWORDS!), Fullblades and Minotaur Great Hammers become more optimized for THF. But for a straight THF who wishes to focus their feats elsewhere (see: you), Greatsword is the way to go.
Besides, it is not that much work to maintain a +1 Valorous Heavy Lance, or indeed any other +1 Reach Weapon, as a backup weapon in case you get the chance at mounted combat, or need a reach weapon, and have your trusty magic greatsword for normal ground fighting.

[Zombulian]

Greatswords do not "suck", nor are they even unoptimized. In fact, they are generally the weapon of choice for any THF build that it not going for reach or mounted combat. Trippers will want Spiked Chains or Guisarme (or some such), but I'll assume you are not going that route. If you are willing to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bastard Swords (YES BASTARD SWORDS!), Fullblades and Minotaur Great Hammers become more optimized for THF. But for a straight THF who wishes to focus their feats elsewhere (see: you), Greatsword is the way to go.
Besides, it is not that much work to maintain a +1 Valorous Heavy Lance, or indeed any other +1 Reach Weapon, as a backup weapon in case you get the chance at mounted combat, or need a reach weapon, and have your trusty magic greatsword for normal ground fighting.

Wait how are Bastard Swords better than Greatswords for THF?

[Urpriest]

I've been on a Falchion kick recently. But Greatswords are fine. It's not like you picked up a Morningstar as your primary or something.

[Rubik]

Also paladins are a solid martial class, they can get absolutely nuts with a lot of work, and pretty good with some basic work. Also define your paladin code with your DM, this will stop headaches later. I recommend a simple 5 rule code, give it to your DM for approval. Something like, must donate 10% of loot to the church, must spend at least one hour a day praying, etc etcExcept paladins aren't required to follow gods. Their hair self-righteousness gives them strength!

[eggynack]

Wait how are Bastard Swords better than Greatswords for THF?
Also important is the question of why you'd need exotic weapon proficiency for it. Bastard swords are a martial weapon when you use them for THF. It's still terrible though. Frigging hate that weapon.

[Rubik]

Also important is the question of why you'd need exotic weapon proficiency for it. Bastard swords are a martial weapon when you use them for THF. It's still terrible though. Frigging hate that weapon.I'd suggest dual-wielding a bastard sword and a sunblade bastard sword, but why not add the sunblade enhancement to, say, a harpoon or something?

[Zombulian]

I'd suggest dual-wielding a bastard sword and a sunblade bastard sword, but why not add the sunblade enhancement to, say, a harpoon or something?

Oversized TWF is pretty hilarious. Just because doing it with a Bastard Sword (http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/images/Product/large/MC-PAK-5055.png) gives you such a silly look.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Just chiming in to agree with most of the rest of the thread that Greatswords are the bread and butter of D&D melee for good reason, and also to note that holy hell how did I never notice that Law Devotion lasts for a whole minute? I'm going to take that on every single non-spellcasting-focused stick in the mud I play from now on.

[Zharradan Marr]

Please note that Monkey Grip, as presented in Complete Warrior, doesn't let you do this.
Yes, pretty much it does. With Monkey Grip, you can wield a Large Longsword one-handed, leaving room for a shield. A Large Longsword deals 2d6 slashing damage with a 19-20 crit range of x2, and weighs 8 lb, which means that, as luck would have it, its numeric parameters are exactly the same as Greatsword. So for all practical purposes, he's wielding a Greatsword+Shield.

[Amphetryon]

Yes, pretty much it does. With Monkey Grip, you can wield a Large Longsword one-handed, leaving room for a shield. A Large Longsword deals 2d6 slashing damage with a 19-20 crit range of x2, and weighs 8 lb, which means that, as luck would have it, its numeric parameters are exactly the same as Greatsword. So for all practical purposes, he's wielding a Greatsword+Shield.

Other than the reduced damage, the -2 to hit, and the fact that he's not wielding an actual Greatsword, should he have any Feats, like Weapon Focus, that care? Yep.

[Zombulian]

Yes, pretty much it does. With Monkey Grip, you can wield a Large Longsword one-handed, leaving room for a shield. A Large Longsword deals 2d6 slashing damage with a 19-20 crit range of x2, and weighs 8 lb, which means that, as luck would have it, its numeric parameters are exactly the same as Greatsword. So for all practical purposes, he's wielding a Greatsword+Shield.

Except that you're doing only 1:1 str to damage instead of 1.5, and 1:1 PA damage instead of 2:1. So I mean, no. Not all practical purposes, or at least the good ones.

[Kennisiou]

If you're at all worried about Multi-Attribute dependancy on the paladin, consider taking the feat "Serenity." It causes your charisma-based class features to be based on Wisdom instead. If it doesn't fit the idea you have in mind for your character that's cool, paladins are MAD, but it's not that bad in my opinion. You can just sit at 14 wis and call it good there (heck, starting at 11 or 12 wis and grabbing an item of +2-+3 is honestly not a bad idea).

The main problem with attribute dependency is dependant on your stat distribution system. If you're given a point buy with low values, MAD will kill you. If you roll and get unlucky, MAD will kill you. If you're given a high value point buy, MAD is not very noticeable. If you're given a high roll system or just flat out roll high, MAD is not very noticeable. In both of the cases where MAD is not problematic, Single Attribute Dependancy is still better, but just not by nearly as much. The main reason that MAD becomes a problem is that you have limited resources (point buy/rolling, level up stats, gold, buffs) to spend gaining benefits from attribute points. The less limited those resources are, the less drawback MAD has.

[Twilightwyrm]

Wait how are Bastard Swords better than Greatswords for THF?

At face value they are not, and if you don't feel like putting any investment beyond a feat into using them, they again are not. However, if you are willing to take a level of Exotic Weapon Master, Bastard Swords are one of the few weapons that can attain the maximum benefit of Uncanny Blow, which is x2, rather than x1.5, STR on damage, and, depending on how you interpret it, gain x3 PA verses x2 PA. Since, as has already been mentioned, the damage die of the weapon tends to matter less and less as levels go up, even trading an extra 2 average damage for x2 STR can be worth the sacrifice, even more so if the x3 verses x2 PA reading goes in your favor.
For most Paladins, for tight level/feat builds, and for others that don't want to bother messing around with a Bastard Sword for six levels, I can see not wanting to use one however.

[Twilightwyrm]

Also important is the question of why you'd need exotic weapon proficiency for it. Bastard swords are a martial weapon when you use them for THF. It's still terrible though. Frigging hate that weapon.

Short Answer: You need Exotic Weapon Proficiency for shenanigans.

[Zharradan Marr]

Except that you're doing only 1:1 str to damage instead of 1.5, and 1:1 PA damage instead of 2:1. So I mean, no. Not all practical purposes, or at least the good ones.I was responding to a poster who noted with much aplomb that Monkey Grip doesn't let you wield a Greatsword+Shield. Not "lets you wield it, albeit inefficiently", but "doesn't". He was wrong. And while I appreciate you compiling the efficiency issues, I was well aware of them. Anyway, Monkey Grip is unplayable and exists for fun and rulepicking purposes only.

[eggynack]

I was responding to a poster who noted with much aplomb that Monkey Grip doesn't let you wield a Greatsword+Shield. Not "lets you wield it, albeit inefficiently", but "doesn't". He was wrong. And while I appreciate you compiling the efficiency issues, I was well aware of them. Anyway, Monkey Grip is unplayable and exists for fun and rulepicking purposes only.
No, he was technically right. Monkey grip doesn't let you wield a greatsword and shield. It lets you wield a large longsword and shield, and that's a functionally equivalent thing in a lot of ways, but it's not identical. His comment was referring to the specific weapon/shield combination, rather than to some other weapon/shield combination that's close enough for most purposes. It's a rules thing.

[Keld Denar]

I'm with Urpriest. For the loss of 1 extra average damage, you get to crit on 1 extra number (or 2, with Keen/ImpCrit). Crits are delicious, and often can mean the difference between damaging a foe and killing a foe (and thus triggering a Cleave for an extra attack). Sure, against a few foes, you can't crit them, and relying on crits to power your offense is generally a bad strategy. That said, if 1 damage is all you have to pay to get better crits, I think thats worth it.

Greatswords are best if you plan on getting Enlarged. 2d6 > 3d6, while 2d4 goes to 2d6.

[(Un)Inspired]

An important note here: "Munchkin" is not the same thing as "optimizer", and in fact, a large proportion of munchkins suck at optimizing. Munchkins are characterized by their attempt at optimizing power over all else, but they very frequently fail in that attempt. The Monkey Grip feat, mentioned earlier in the thread, is a case in point: A great many of the people who take that feat are munchkins, and it's worthless.

This is so true and so well said.

Additionally, to the person who questioned the feasibility of bollock chopping: you need to lie flat on the floor, on your back. Disguise yourself as a carpet then strike violently upwards.

[Rubik]

Additionally, to the person who questioned the feasibility of bollock chopping: you need to lie flat on the floor, on your back. Disguise yourself as a carpet then strike violently upwards.Instead of a down-chop, try inverting your arm position like you're doing a push-up with your fingers turned inwards, and chopping upward with the outer edge of the hand (ie, the side opposite the thumb).

You can do it if you're fairly short, crouching, or below your opponent, though I'd have to say it'd be easier to just punch.

[(Un)Inspired]

Instead of a down-chop, try inverting your arm position like you're doing a push-up with your fingers turned inwards, and chopping upward with the outer edge of the hand (ie, the side opposite the thumb).

You can do it if you're fairly short, crouching, or below your opponent, though I'd have to say it'd be easier to just punch.

I really like this idea. It's a shame I'm tall but I'm gonna try it.

Visitors to my ninja lair beware!

[Aasimar]

I don't know what weapon you're thinking about, but greatswords generally slice, though it's possible to bludgeon with them and even pierce.

Edit: Could it be you're thinking about a Vampiric greatsword?

[Gwendol]

Also, paladins can be made awesome.

Here's an often referenced example: http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376

[Chronos]

Actually, on thinking about it, simple and martial weapons in D&D are remarkably well-balanced, in that for nearly any weapon, there's some situation or fighting style for which that weapon is optimal. Of course, some weapons suck for some specific fighting styles, and some fighting styles are more effective than others, but there are very few weapons that suck across the board.

[TrollCapAmerica]

An important note here: "Munchkin" is not the same thing as "optimizer", and in fact, a large proportion of munchkins suck at optimizing. Munchkins are characterized by their attempt at optimizing power over all else, but they very frequently fail in that attempt. The Monkey Grip feat, mentioned earlier in the thread, is a case in point: A great many of the people who take that feat are munchkins, and it's worthless.

This is something I notice remarkably often.I still had to remember explaining to a guy with a UFC obsession that he couldnt get an off-hand unarmed attack earths embrace and unarmed damage all off one grapple

[Aliek]

And if for some reason you'd really like to use a bigger weapon, Strongarm Bracers do everything monkey does, minus the -2 to hit. And taking up a feat slot, I guess.

A large greatsword would deal 3d6 damage, so 3k(plus 50 gold, if you want to get technical) for 1d6 damage isn't the worst deal you might find, especially since it doesn't count for your weapon enchantment purposes.
And then, if you manage to increase on size it'll help a bit more.

But really, greatswords are the exemplar two-handed weapon in D&D. I see no problem with it as a weapon of choice.

[3drinks]

Greatswords are a fine weapon, yes. I have a [personal] preference for a Greataxe, but I am an Axe guy and will usually go out of my way to acquire one. But OP you aren't wrong either way you go.

[Lightlawbliss]

the guy you are playing with is most certainly a munchkin. playing with a true munchkin is never fun. (especially when they have no clue what they are talking about and/or a negative charisma modifier *cough* him *cough*)

[eastmabl]

Just play what you want to play. The greatsword, with a little help from weapon focus and power attack, is more than efficient enough to contribute to the party.

Don't let a ruthless optimizer get you down.

[Telonius]

Okay, I'm genuinely curious here... exactly what weapon did Mr. Munchkin suggest instead of a Greatsword?

[Rubik]

Just play what you want to play. The greatsword, with a little help from weapon focus and power attack, is more than efficient enough to contribute to the party.

Don't let a ruthless an ineffective optimizer get you down.There. That's much better.

[Coidzor]

Okay, I'm genuinely curious here... exactly what weapon did Mr. Munchkin suggest instead of a Greatsword?

I'm curious myself. I was wondering if maybe there was some mounted charging going on where a lance would have been ideal but despite having the gold for it, no lance was obtained during char gen or something, but since they're level one characters that seems a bit unlikely.

[mikeejimbo]

How many situations is mounted combat useable in, anyway? If you're in a dungeon, or mountains, or dense forest, or swamp, or really pretty much anywhere other than open plains, wouldn't you lack the room to do so effectively? I know my DM would smack me with the book for attempting it.

Anyway, the greatsword is strictly better than the pretty good sword, and unless you find a really greatsword, or take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Legitimate Heir Sword)...

[Heliomance]

How many situations is mounted combat useable in, anyway? If you're in a dungeon, or mountains, or dense forest, or swamp, or really pretty much anywhere other than open plains, wouldn't you lack the room to do so effectively? I know my DM would smack me with the book for attempting it.

Not if you're a halfling on a riding dog.

[Lorick]

Okay, I'm genuinely curious here... exactly what weapon did Mr. Munchkin suggest instead of a Greatsword?

He was telling me to go Guisarme.

[Shining Wrath]

Two-handed fighting is optimal compared to sword & board and two-weapon fighting, so long as you take Power Attack feat.
Greatswords are a solid choice for THF, although an argument can be made for reach weapons.
The spiked chain requires an exotic weapon feat but gives you reach AND close-in AND trip AND disarm. Probably the only weapon worth the EWP feat.
If I had to choose between Power Attack and EWP at first level, though, I'd take Power Attack and use a great sword.


He wants me to use a guisarme
So he wants you to have a reach tripper, then? That depends upon your role in the party. If someone else is the meat shield, fine. If you are the meat shield, you'll be backing up every round in order to attack, letting the enemy get closer to the squishy people.

[Amphetryon]

He was telling me to go Guisarme.

He was telling you to build a Paladin who needed a 13+ INT and takes Combat Expertise in order to get Improved Trip?

No.

[Rubik]

He was telling you to build a Paladin who needed a 13+ INT and takes Combat Expertise in order to get Improved Trip?

No.Well, to be frank, guisarmes are great due to reach, because reach is always good to have. Just make sure you've got a spiked gauntlet for adjacent attacks, and you should be good to go.

Though the O.P. should take a long spear, lance, or ranseur just to be contrary.

[Coidzor]

Well, to be frank, guisarmes are great due to reach, because reach is always good to have. Just make sure you've got a spiked gauntlet for adjacent attacks, and you should be good to go.

Though the O.P. should take a long spear, lance, or ranseur just to be contrary.

And because it's 10 gp.


How many situations is mounted combat useable in, anyway? If you're in a dungeon, or mountains, or dense forest, or swamp, or really pretty much anywhere other than open plains, wouldn't you lack the room to do so effectively?

I know my DM would smack me with the book for attempting it.

Moose exist, as do other Large creatures that live in all of those environments. Aside from putting down terrain that would bog down anyone even if they were on foot, the rules don't model anything that would prevent one from being mounted for the most part.

Sounds like that's pretty clearly a DMing problem on your end, then.

Charging might not always be an option, so I suppose it's good that I never said it was and made it clear that I was talking about a hypothetical corner case. :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

How many situations is mounted combat useable in, anyway? If you're in a dungeon, or mountains, or dense forest, or swamp, or really pretty much anywhere other than open plains, wouldn't you lack the room to do so effectively? I know my DM would smack me with the book for attempting it.

Anyway, the greatsword is strictly better than the pretty good sword, and unless you find a really greatsword, or take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Legitimate Heir Sword)...

Pixie riding their familiar! Best charger.

[(Un)Inspired]

Pixie riding their familiar! Best charger.

Shapechanged animal companion riding it's Druid. Best-er charger.

[lytokk]

Just backing up everything said, there's nothing wrong with greatswords. They're the go-to standard of low level two weapon fighting. That being said, I'm trying to stop using them myself since I really want to use something else (and I feel bad for neglecting my d12s)

Also, seconding the mounted combat with halfling characters being effective anywhere, or at least inside dungeons, instead of just on open plains.

[Tvtyrant]

Shapechanged animal companion riding it's Druid. Best-er charger.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, a hard charger to beat.

http://furiousfanboys.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mindflayer-riding-beholder.jpg

[Shining Wrath]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, a hard charger to beat.

http://furiousfanboys.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mindflayer-riding-beholder.jpg

Bear, riding bear, summoning bears, ridden bear also has learned to summon and summons tigers just for variety.

[Tvtyrant]

Bear, riding bear, summoning bears, ridden bear also has learned to summon and summons tigers just for variety.

Although you could also play a Wizard charger who binds Elder Evils for your mount. I actually think Aquaman is a Druid myself.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bdQtkU80RkU/T-vqrzvBBiI/AAAAAAAACVY/BKXczWHom1g/s320/Then%2Bagain%2B_4687d3e65c43fd3c0daa009f40cb215c.j pg

[Rubik]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, a hard charger to beat.

http://furiousfanboys.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mindflayer-riding-beholder.jpg...with Ted the Mind Flayer in the background tossing a thumbs-up!

[Phaederkiel]

Greatsword is the best damage-dealing weapon in the game short of a mounted lance, though a feat-supported Falchion in Pathfinder surpasses it at high levels.


i am sorry, but the normal falchion FAR exceeds the Greatsword even in 3.5 and even without any feat- support.

A falchion has 2d4 18-20 x2 (compared to the greatswords 2d6 19-20x2).
2d4 are statistically 5, 2d6 are statistically 7. Those 2 points of damage difference are completely irrelevant compared to the higher crit chance a falchion gives.
Keened, the falchion has 15-20 compared to the greatswords 17-20. As soon as you have any modifier on top of your weapon damage (say: strenght, power attack, smite...) which is higher than about 7 (a guesstimate, might be a bit higher), the falchion starts gaining ground and does never stop.



oh, and @OP: This is by no way me telling you not to chose a greatsword.
If you like the image of a greatsword more than that of a falchion, your image is far more important than any damage you might not deal.

[Particle_Man]

Well, to be frank, guisarmes are great due to reach, because reach is always good to have. Just make sure you've got a spiked gauntlet for adjacent attacks, and you should be good to go.

But if you get backed up into a corner so you can't regain reach, you are going to wish you had a greatsword rather than spiked guantlets. ;)

I think greatswords are great. Especially for a new player as you don't have to think about tactics yet.

[Particle_Man]

i am sorry, but the normal falchion FAR exceeds the Greatsword even in 3.5 and even without any feat- support.

A falchion has 2d4 18-20 x2 (compared to the greatswords 2d6 19-20x2).
2d4 are statistically 5, 2d6 are statistically 7. Those 2 points of damage difference are completely irrelevant compared to the higher crit chance a falchion gives.
Keened, the falchion has 15-20 compared to the greatswords 17-20. As soon as you have any modifier on top of your weapon damage (say: strenght, power attack, smite...) which is higher than about 7 (a guesstimate, might be a bit higher), the falchion starts gaining ground and does never stop.

None of that keen stuff applies at level 1. At level 1 the greatsword wins.

[Rubik]

But if you get backed up into a corner so you can't regain reach, you are going to wish you had a greatsword rather than spiked guantlets. ;)

I think greatswords are great. Especially for a new player as you don't have to think about tactics yet.Technically, gauntlets can be made as 2-handed weapons during creation, so it wouldn't take much to make your unarmed strikes 2-handed. The slightly lower base damage won't matter much at all.

[edit] Savage Species specifies that any weapon can be designed for use with additional hands, so it wouldn't be at all against RAW to do so for your gauntleted unarmed strike.

[CombatOwl]

So I rolled up my first D&D character: A paladin with a greatsword. First session was solely character creation, and the munchkin of our group told me I was being unoptimized (his actual choice of words were "playing the game wrong") both in terms of class and weapon. Now I get that for paladin, as I've read about D&D for a bit, and know they're low tiered and are MAD (though, without playing, am not sure how this works in practice. It's not that bad, is it?). Why are greatswords a bad choice, though?

Well, all weapons suck compared to the spiked chain...

Greatswords are okay, which is more than I can say for most weapons in the game. Lucerne Hammers and Spiked Chains are better, but greatsword is adequate.

And Paladins can be okay, but you have to focus super hard down some of the cheesy paths. Paladin is pretty good for high-cha characters when taken to level two or four, but there's not much point in going further than 4. If you have access to Forgotten Realms feats and ACFs, consider switching out to Sorcerer and Bard after level 4. Initiate of Milil and Smite to Song let you combine Paladin and Bard very well. Sorcadins also work well. If you happen to be a paladin of Mystra and have a good intelligence, you can take Sword of the Arcane Order and start preparing wizard spells and can stack wizard and paladin levels.

[eggynack]

Well, all weapons suck compared to the spiked chain...

I think that the guisarme may be better by virtue of it not being much worse. I mean, there's definitely some disadvantage compared to a spiked chain, but I'm not sure that the advantage gained is worth a feat. Either way, I agree with the other player that the OP would be better off with a guisarme, as I've indicated in this and another post, but it's really not a huge deal.

[Rubik]

Well, all weapons suck compared to the spiked chain...I'd actually say that with all the options available for optimization, unarmed strikes are the best of all possible weapons.

Grabbing a 30+ equivalent bonus prior to epic with pre-epic wealth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) is nothing to sneeze at. The only reason I didn't get considerably more than that is because I ran out of money. If I'd had access to magical crafting abilities...

[CombatOwl]

I'd actually say that with all the options available for optimization, unarmed strikes are the best of all possible weapons.

Grabbing a 30+ equivalent bonus prior to epic with pre-epic wealth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) is nothing to sneeze at. The only reason I didn't get considerably more than that is because I ran out of money. If I'd had access to magical crafting abilities...

Eh, seems like a waste to give up the weapon item slot and try to cram so much onto your amulet. Bardadins can hit +30 before epic as well, quite easily. Though admittedly you need to use a bastard sword for that, not spiked chain.

[Phaederkiel]

I have just done the math, and it seems that 15 extra damage is the point where a (non keen) Falchion starts being better that a greatsword.

15 sounds like a lot, but a half-orc barbarian at lvl 1 can already have a 20 strength, 24 when raging, +1 Powerattack. That means 9 extra dmg from the strength and 2 from PA.
And that means at lvl 4 the Falchion starts being better. Just from power attack, no shenanigans (nor gear!) included.

And there are some quite interesting shenanigans which start to go online at about lvl 6, such as slowburst, or its big brother prismatic burst.


All in all I think that the Falchion is the best damage dealing non-exotic low-maintenance weapon in the game.


But again, a greatsword is also absolutely adequate. And at lvl1 probably better.

[Just to Browse]

Okay, I'm genuinely curious here... exactly what weapon did Mr. Munchkin suggest instead of a Greatsword?

If he was like most optimizers, he was probably thinking of a lance because the paladin's greatest damage point is as an ubercharger. This would make more sense if he spent time doing CharOp, because he was probably thinking of the paladin's effectiveness at level 20 instead of level 1, when a lance is a terrible idea because you're too poor to have decent armor and a mount. If he wasn't actually a munchkin (he may have just been a tool), he could have thought the One True Way was sword & board because that's what paladins are usually doing in picture.

Also, I did the numbers, and against a foe that you have 50% chance to hit, the greataxe deals an average of ~.5 more damage per round. I doubt that had anything to do with the munchkin's complaints, but it's an interesting factoid.

[eggynack]

If he was like most optimizers, he was probably thinking of a lance because the paladin's greatest damage point is as an ubercharger. This would make more sense if he spent time doing CharOp, because he was probably thinking of the paladin's effectiveness at level 20 instead of level 1, when a lance is a terrible idea because you're too poor to have decent armor and a mount. If he wasn't actually a munchkin (he may have just been a tool), he could have thought the One True Way was sword & board because that's what paladins are usually doing in picture.
It has become apparent that he was referring to a guisarme, which is a pretty respectable suggestion, if offered with poor phrasing.


Also, I did the numbers, and against a foe that you have 50% chance to hit, the greataxe deals an average of ~.5 more damage per round. I doubt that had anything to do with the munchkin's complaints, but it's an interesting factoid.
How'd you reach that conclusion?

[TuggyNE]

i am sorry, but the normal falchion FAR exceeds the Greatsword even in 3.5 and even without any feat- support.

A falchion has 2d4 18-20 x2 (compared to the greatswords 2d6 19-20x2).
2d4 are statistically 5, 2d6 are statistically 7. Those 2 points of damage difference are completely irrelevant compared to the higher crit chance a falchion gives.
Keened, the falchion has 15-20 compared to the greatswords 17-20. As soon as you have any modifier on top of your weapon damage (say: strenght, power attack, smite...) which is higher than about 7 (a guesstimate, might be a bit higher), the falchion starts gaining ground and does never stop.

It actually has to be a lot higher than 7, and higher even than 15. Without Keen/Improved Critical, the extra 5%* chance of double damage makes the falchion superior once you have 40 points of bonus damage: 45 average damage per non-critical hit and a 15% chance of 45 extra damage makes 51.75 average, vs 47 and 10% chance of another 47 for 51.5 average.

With Keen, on the other hand, you only need 20 bonus damage to make it slightly better, at 32.5 vs 32.4.

When you factor in the number of enemies with immunity to critical hits or fortification, the actual amount of bonus damage needed to make it worthwhile overall goes up even more, and pretty substantially.


* If you have a critical threat, the confirmation acts to filter critical hits at the same rate as regular hits, so in normal circumstances (i.e., barring Power Critical or a threat range that's larger than the to-hit range), the threat range percentage is the same as the percentage of hits that are critical hits.

[Rubik]

Eh, seems like a waste to give up the weapon item slot and try to cram so much onto your amulet.The MIC explicitly grants rules for stacking items and for changing item slots for required items, such as save and ability score boosters. And considering that you can wear every single chronocharm simultaneously, just add additional neck slot items onto each of them and wear them all together.

[Psyren]

Just say exactly this: "While there may be better options available, there are worse ones too, and my paladin wants to wield a greatsword. He's my character."


I was responding to a poster who noted with much aplomb that Monkey Grip doesn't let you wield a Greatsword+Shield. Not "lets you wield it, albeit inefficiently", but "doesn't". He was wrong. And while I appreciate you compiling the efficiency issues, I was well aware of them. Anyway, Monkey Grip is unplayable and exists for fun and rulepicking purposes only.


No, he was technically right. Monkey grip doesn't let you wield a greatsword and shield. It lets you wield a large longsword and shield, and that's a functionally equivalent thing in a lot of ways, but it's not identical. His comment was referring to the specific weapon/shield combination, rather than to some other weapon/shield combination that's close enough for most purposes. It's a rules thing.

Ahh, nothing like a good petard-hoisting :smallbiggrin:

[Phaederkiel]

Also, I did the numbers, and against a foe that you have 50% chance to hit, the greataxe deals an average of ~.5 more damage per round. I doubt that had anything to do with the munchkin's complaints, but it's an interesting factoid.

But the damage an Greataxe deals is spike damage, you deal a lot of little damage and very few VERY impressive numbers, which means that you very often deal far more damage than you need to kill a foe.
A weapon with a more evenly spread damage deals more average damage, but deals less meaningful damage.


@tuggyne: I shall go to bed now and bother my girlfriend with the math tomorrow. I know i cannot be trusted with a calculator, but on the other hand i cannot find where my math is faulty. You are probably right.

[danzibr]

How else can you play as Guts?

(other than fullblade)

[Aliek]

A falchion has 2d4 18-20 x2 (compared to the greatswords 2d6 19-20x2).
2d4 are statistically 5, 2d6 are statistically 7. Those 2 points of damage difference are completely irrelevant compared to the higher crit chance a falchion gives.

Let's see, statistically speaking then.
If you only miss on a natural 1, you'll deal on average 21 times your damage per 20 hits with a greatsword, or 22 with a falchion.
So 147+21x damage with the greatsword, or 110+22x with the falchion, x being your bonus damage that's multiplied, other than the base weapons.

So when you're reliably going for 37 damage per hit, without your weapon die, the falchion is the better choice. Kind of a joke for most uberchargers or whatever. A bit harder for most characters, tough.
If using a keen weapon*, the damage needed for the falchion to catch up is lower, but then, you could use that +2 enchantment for something like Collision on the greatsword, so the gap is harder to close than it seems.

Either way, both do well, and the difference won't be meaningful in the grand scheme of things. At most 2 damage on the greatsword side, with a higher ceiling on the falchion, but if you're reliably doing that high damage per hit, you won't *need* the crits.

[(Un)Inspired]

How else can you play as Guts?

(other than fullblade)

Warforged arm graft.

[danzibr]

Warforged arm graft.
Nice. Can you slap a cannon on that?

[Zombulian]

Nice. Can you slap a cannon on that?

Wand Compartment in your arm for a wand of fireball.

[Manly Man]

Wand Compartment in your arm for a wand of fireball.

If you can afford it, Orb of Force is an even more solid choice.

As for alternate weapons, I've always liked the executioner's mace. 2d6, 19-20/x2 crit, bludgeoning and slashing or bludgeoning and piercing, and weights twelve pounds, all in the package of one martial weapon. Costs 75 gp, and I'm not sure that most DMs would be comfortable with a weapon so grim in the hands of a Paladin, but hey, they're still effective at smashing those demons that you're supposed to fight.

[Kennisiou]

If you can afford it, Orb of Force is an even more solid choice.



Now I want to make a megaman themed Warforged Artificer/Spellthief who shoots orbs of force out of wands lodged in his arms.

[Phelix-Mu]

Good forums have at least 100 things to say about greatswords. But great forums? Yes, let's make this 500 things to say about greatswords!

My thing is to say that I have a personal bias toward greataxe due to some rocking dwarves that I played back in the day.

My second thing to say is that groupthink involving weapon types irritates me. I know it's a classic and somewhat optimal, but any determined player could talk me into refluffing weapon appearances in order to accommodate some attractive visuals involving some other weapon archetype. The world is a big place, and there should be many colorful ways of butchering your enemies at low-level with, say, a chalkboard with sharpened edges. Or a cleverly wielded bento.

Happily, as level increases, the precise weapon hardly matters in terms of damage potential.

[Zombulian]

If you can afford it, Orb of Force is an even more solid choice.

As for alternate weapons, I've always liked the executioner's mace. 2d6, 19-20/x2 crit, bludgeoning and slashing or bludgeoning and piercing, and weights twelve pounds, all in the package of one martial weapon. Costs 75 gp, and I'm not sure that most DMs would be comfortable with a weapon so grim in the hands of a Paladin, but hey, they're still effective at smashing those demons that you're supposed to fight.

Whoa. Executioner's mace is awesome. I always wondered why Kyuss's mace looked so weird.

[ericgrau]

The #1 rule is that you're playing to have fun, and playing your character for you takes away from that. So the guy sounds like a jerk. But greatswords are about 3rd worst after greatclubs and greataxes. There is a lot of unnecessary backlash here probably b/c the way it was said seems so annoying. That said the difference between weapons is pretty small so of all the things to complain about in character effectiveness... ya the guy sounds like a jerk.

[eggynack]

Greatswords are about 3rd worst after greatclubs and greataxes.
They seem pretty high up there in terms of damage, depending on how much damage you deal normally. Also, there's a whole pile of crappy weapons out there. For example, how's about the halberd? That weapon's so obviously inferior to a greataxe that I don't even know why it exists. Most exotic and one handed weapons are pretty terrible too. Greatswords don't really do anything cool, like reach or tripping, but in the vanilla weapon category, they're pretty great.

Edit: Just noticed the two types of damage thing on halberds. Still probably worse than a greatsword.

[Manly Man]

Whoa. Executioner's mace is awesome. I always wondered why Kyuss's mace looked so weird.

With a honking blade on it like that, it's no wonder that it's awesome. I love to have them for fighting undead, my favorite material being Oerthblooded cold iron (or primal iron (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials), if you've converted the mace to Pathfinder).

[Particle_Man]

Technically, gauntlets can be made as 2-handed weapons during creation, so it wouldn't take much to make your unarmed strikes 2-handed. The slightly lower base damage won't matter much at all.

[edit] Savage Species specifies that any weapon can be designed for use with additional hands, so it wouldn't be at all against RAW to do so for your gauntleted unarmed strike.

I have no idea what any of this means. I have a vision of someone with a 2-handed gauntlet, but IMC could not pull his hands apart but would have to do Captain Kirk style axe-handle attacks on his foes. He certainly could not wield any other weapon, much less a reach weapon.

I also don't know what "additional hands" means. I assume this is a human character, not a thri-keen.

In any case, at first level (which is what the OP is) base damage matters a lot. An average of 7 damage before str. bonus kills the average orc. Heck, the minimum damage of a greatsword is 2, which even with a +3 str. bonus (from a 14 str character) kills a 5 hp enemy, which you can face at level 1. The greatsword is great at 1st level.

[Heliomance]

I have no idea what any of this means. I have a vision of someone with a 2-handed gauntlet, but IMC could not pull his hands apart but would have to do Captain Kirk style axe-handle attacks on his foes. He certainly could not wield any other weapon, much less a reach weapon.

I also don't know what "additional hands" means. I assume this is a human character, not a thri-keen.

RAW cares not for your puny concepts of "making sense".

[Scow2]

They seem pretty high up there in terms of damage, depending on how much damage you deal normally. Also, there's a whole pile of crappy weapons out there. For example, how's about the halberd? That weapon's so obviously inferior to a greataxe that I don't even know why it exists. Most exotic and one handed weapons are pretty terrible too. Greatswords don't really do anything cool, like reach or tripping, but in the vanilla weapon category, they're pretty great.The lack of reach on a halberd does screw it over... but it's a "Circumstantial" weapon. You can trip with it (But not get as much mileage out of tripping as with a guisarm), you can set it against a charge (Uberchargers go POP!, but the lack or reach means its' not as good at this as a spear, despite its slightly superior damage die), and its dual damage types get around low-level resistances.

Also, if you have a Wizard with Enlarge Person in the party, a Greatsword user becomes absolutely awesome at killing everything.

[Gwendol]

Well, all weapons suck compared to the spiked chain...

Greatswords are okay, which is more than I can say for most weapons in the game. Lucerne Hammers and Spiked Chains are better, but greatsword is adequate.

And Paladins can be okay, but you have to focus super hard down some of the cheesy paths. Paladin is pretty good for high-cha characters when taken to level two or four, but there's not much point in going further than 4. If you have access to Forgotten Realms feats and ACFs, consider switching out to Sorcerer and Bard after level 4. Initiate of Milil and Smite to Song let you combine Paladin and Bard very well. Sorcadins also work well. If you happen to be a paladin of Mystra and have a good intelligence, you can take Sword of the Arcane Order and start preparing wizard spells and can stack wizard and paladin levels.

The A-game paladin suggests staying with the class, use Smite to Song and optimize for inspire courage, take SotAO, exchange the mount for the divine spirit.
Otherwise take the Devoted Performer feat to stack paladin and bard levels wrt bardic music and smite evil, and build yourself a bardadin!

[Rubik]

I have no idea what any of this means. I have a vision of someone with a 2-handed gauntlet, but IMC could not pull his hands apart but would have to do Captain Kirk style axe-handle attacks on his foes. He certainly could not wield any other weapon, much less a reach weapon.The way I see it is that a normal spiked gauntlet can only be used for single-hand punches, likely because the way the metal ridges make threading your fingers together in a fist (à la Kirk) very difficult. Gauntlets designed for 2-handing like Kirk facilitates use with both fists in tandem, such that you can quickly thread your fingers together on the fly and form a single striking surface without the risk of breaking your fingers.


I also don't know what "additional hands" means. I assume this is a human character, not a thri-keen.Normally, gauntlets are light 1-handed unarmed strikes. Designing them for multiple hands (in this case, 2) means you can utilize them as 2-handed weapons, with all that entails (see above).


In any case, at first level (which is what the OP is) base damage matters a lot. An average of 7 damage before str. bonus kills the average orc. Heck, the minimum damage of a greatsword is 2, which even with a +3 str. bonus (from a 14 str character) kills a 5 hp enemy, which you can face at level 1. The greatsword is great at 1st level.True enough. Beyond the first 2 levels or so, its usefulness does rather drop off increasingly rapidly, however.

[ericgrau]

They seem pretty high up there in terms of damage, depending on how much damage you deal normally. Also, there's a whole pile of crappy weapons out there. For example, how's about the halberd? That weapon's so obviously inferior to a greataxe that I don't even know why it exists. Most exotic and one handed weapons are pretty terrible too. Greatswords don't really do anything cool, like reach or tripping, but in the vanilla weapon category, they're pretty great.

Edit: Just noticed the two types of damage thing on halberds. Still probably worse than a greatsword.

It's a point and a half of damage. You're better off tripping or stopping low level charges (and at high level, not caring as much about 1.5 damage) or anything else in the world. I would rather have a guisarme over a halberd. But I'd rather have a halberd or most weapons over a greatsword.

That's the point in general. 1-1.5 damage or sweet special effect. No contest. The greatsword is for rookies who don't know how to use tactical combat yet.

Enlarge person is a great way to increase the enemy's damage with his effective +2 to hit. In the end it's not worth the standard action purely for damage. The enemy is going to get almost as much, sometimes more. You use it for grappling or tripping or to further boost reach. So, again, tactical combat.

[Coidzor]

Whoa. Executioner's mace is awesome. I always wondered why Kyuss's mace looked so weird.

It's pretty sweet, what with not *needing* to worry about damage type DR or a backup weapon just for that purpose. I think one of the ways you use it is supposed to just be a x3 crit though, but that could just be an artifact of the telephone game being played online.

[mikeejimbo]

Moose exist, as do other Large creatures that live in all of those environments. Aside from putting down terrain that would bog down anyone even if they were on foot, the rules don't model anything that would prevent one from being mounted for the most part.

Sounds like that's pretty clearly a DMing problem on your end, then.

Charging might not always be an option, so I suppose it's good that I never said it was and made it clear that I was talking about a hypothetical corner case. :smalltongue:


Oh, sorry, that might have just been me not understanding mounted combat. I thought you needed to be able to charge to be effective.

I play clerics who mostly support, I've never had to look into it. :smalltongue:

[ArqArturo]

In plain terms:

A greataxe deals 1d12, and has a critical of x3. Its minimum of damage is 1.

A greatsword deals 2d6, and has a critical of 19-20x2. It's minimum damage is 2.

A falchion deals 2d4, and has a critical of 18-20x2. It's minimum damage is 2.

[Chronos]

The greatsword is definitely superior to the greataxe for a PC, but the superiority is small enough that it's really easy to take a greataxe instead if that suits you better. First, the greatsword does on average a half a point of damage more than the greataxe (7 vs. 6.5, before crits, and x3 is worth the same amount on average as 19-20). Second, both because of the larger crit range and because its base damage uses two dice instead of one, the sword tends to be more consistent than the axe, and consistency is the PC's friend. The only case where the greataxe is superior is when you're forced to gamble for your survival on a longshot, and adventurers should be avoiding those situations whenever possible.

[kpumphre]

Greatsword are my second Favorite, Halberds beat them out but more for flavor than anything else. If he wants you to min/max tell him to go make up a character then get a lighter and burn it when he hands it to you and play your guy.

I love the game where after you created your character is was a percent chance to see if you actually survived up to this point. It was a superhero game where you rolled up everything randomly. But I found that very realistic cause hey not every one survives and some people would never survive wit the way they built their uy if they started playing at level 1

[Coidzor]

Oh, sorry, that might have just been me not understanding mounted combat. I thought you needed to be able to charge to be effective.

I play clerics who mostly support, I've never had to look into it. :smalltongue:

It sounds mostly like you're dealing with a DM who hates charging in general then. Not much that can be said when you've got diabolus ex machina all over the tin.

[Shining Wrath]

i am sorry, but the normal falchion FAR exceeds the Greatsword even in 3.5 and even without any feat- support.

A falchion has 2d4 18-20 x2 (compared to the greatswords 2d6 19-20x2).
2d4 are statistically 5, 2d6 are statistically 7. Those 2 points of damage difference are completely irrelevant compared to the higher crit chance a falchion gives.
Keened, the falchion has 15-20 compared to the greatswords 17-20. As soon as you have any modifier on top of your weapon damage (say: strenght, power attack, smite...) which is higher than about 7 (a guesstimate, might be a bit higher), the falchion starts gaining ground and does never stop.



oh, and @OP: This is by no way me telling you not to chose a greatsword.
If you like the image of a greatsword more than that of a falchion, your image is far more important than any damage you might not deal.


I have just done the math, and it seems that 15 extra damage is the point where a (non keen) Falchion starts being better that a greatsword.

15 sounds like a lot, but a half-orc barbarian at lvl 1 can already have a 20 strength, 24 when raging, +1 Powerattack. That means 9 extra dmg from the strength and 2 from PA.
And that means at lvl 4 the Falchion starts being better. Just from power attack, no shenanigans (nor gear!) included.

And there are some quite interesting shenanigans which start to go online at about lvl 6, such as slowburst, or its big brother prismatic burst.


All in all I think that the Falchion is the best damage dealing non-exotic low-maintenance weapon in the game.


But again, a greatsword is also absolutely adequate. And at lvl1 probably better.

The math is complicated greatly by the whole families of creatures immune to critical hits [constructs, elementals, ooze, plant, undead, swarm]. The math is further complicated by the requirement hit the target in the first place; on tough foes where 17 or more is required to hit, the falchion offers no benefit. And against hard-to-hit foes your chance of confirming drops.

Crit fishing is not always optimal.


If you can afford it, Orb of Force is an even more solid choice.

As for alternate weapons, I've always liked the executioner's mace. 2d6, 19-20/x2 crit, bludgeoning and slashing or bludgeoning and piercing, and weights twelve pounds, all in the package of one martial weapon. Costs 75 gp, and I'm not sure that most DMs would be comfortable with a weapon so grim in the hands of a Paladin, but hey, they're still effective at smashing those demons that you're supposed to fight.

IIRC Executioner's Mace was from an adventure, not a splat book, and may not be considered canonical by a DM. I looked into it once and decided it was too cheesy for my tastes for the character I was building at the time. If you look at the picture you're talking a weapon that would hit a shield or chainmail ONCE and be tangled up in the other guy's armor. There's a reason why most RW weapons don't have complicated pokey bits.

[eastmabl]

Also, as another critique of crit fishing:

Note that you might be forced to deal with a DR that you're not outfitted to deal with (low level characters in particular, where the gold might not stretch for you to have the right weapon for the monster).

Reliably getting the higher average and maximum damage output on a successful attack could be the different between doing damage and clawing ineffectually at your target.

For example: DR 10/silver on a CR wererat v. Str 16 fighting man:

Average greatsword: 2d6 (7) + Str (+3 x 1.5 = +4) = 11 damage, or 1 actual damage.
Maximum greatsword: 2d6 (12) + Str (+4 as above) = 16 damage, or 6 actual damage.
Average crit for greatsword: 4d6 (14) + Str (4x2=8) = 22 damage, which puts the wererat from full health to staggered in a mighty swing.

Without a crit, the greatword has a 58% chance of doing damage to the wererat.

Average falchion: 2d4 (5) + Str (+3 x 1.5 = +4) = 8 damage, or 0 actual damage.
Maximum falchion: 2d4 (8) + Str (+4 as above) = 12 damage, or 2 actual damage.
Average crit for falchion: 4d4 (10) + Str (4x2=8) = 18 damage, which puts a crimp in the wererat's step with 8 actual damage.

Without a crit, the falchion only has a 18% chance of doing any damage to the wererat - and a maximum chance of 2 damage.

[Shining Wrath]

Also, as another critique of crit fishing:

Note that you might be forced to deal with a DR that you're not outfitted to deal with (low level characters in particular, where the gold might not stretch for you to have the right weapon for the monster).

Reliably getting the higher average and maximum damage output on a successful attack could be the different between doing damage and clawing ineffectually at your target.

Eh, you may want to optimize maximum likely damage to deal with damage resistance, so that you can at least hurt it on a good damage roll. If the question is "how often will I exceed 10 damage" criticals might help with that.

[Coidzor]

IIRC Executioner's Mace was from an adventure, not a splat book, and may not be considered canonical by a DM.

That's... a weird way to put it. :smallconfused: We're discussing playing a game, not whether something is canon to a series.

I mean, sure, you could try to debate whether it's rules text or not or whether it's rules text from WOTC or not, but that's fairly secondary to whether one wants to allow it at the table or specifically ban it.


Technically, gauntlets can be made as 2-handed weapons during creation, so it wouldn't take much to make your unarmed strikes 2-handed. The slightly lower base damage won't matter much at all.

[edit] Savage Species specifies that any weapon can be designed for use with additional hands, so it wouldn't be at all against RAW to do so for your gauntleted unarmed strike.

The main downside is that it's practically begging for a kneejerk reaction that the gauntlets would have to be fused together in one piece.

But the idea definitely is something I find intriguing.


I'd actually say that with all the options available for optimization, unarmed strikes are the best of all possible weapons.

Grabbing a 30+ equivalent bonus prior to epic with pre-epic wealth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) is nothing to sneeze at. The only reason I didn't get considerably more than that is because I ran out of money. If I'd had access to magical crafting abilities...

That definitely sounds tasty *goes off to read*


The MIC explicitly grants rules for stacking items and for changing item slots for required items, such as save and ability score boosters. And considering that you can wear every single chronocharm simultaneously, just add additional neck slot items onto each of them and wear them all together.

I always forget about that, and then when reminded I get the same evil thrill. XD


Greatswords are okay, which is more than I can say for most weapons in the game. Lucerne Hammers and Spiked Chains are better, but greatsword is adequate.

Refresh my memory, what causes Lucerne Hammers to stand out? The main thing I recall is reach + bludgeoning without being exotic.


If he was like most optimizers, he was probably thinking of a lance because the paladin's greatest damage point is as an ubercharger. This would make more sense if he spent time doing CharOp, because he was probably thinking of the paladin's effectiveness at level 20 instead of level 1, when a lance is a terrible idea because you're too poor to have decent armor and a mount.

At level 1, your mount options are A. Wild Cohort (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), B. Animal Companion, C. hoping that you can get a 25 gp guard dog with riding dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) stats and being small, or D. Mules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mule.htm)/Donkeys (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/donkey.htm), which cost less (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#mountsAndRelatedGear) than the lance itself. So that's 18 gp for a lance and a mount at 1st level, and for 8 gp and 1st level, those are pretty darn good mounts. The mule is arguably tougher and stronger than its rider at 1st level. Although adding barding would bump that up to either 38 gp or 58 gp, depending upon padded or leather. Only 8 gp more than a greatsword though, but probably more average damage when you factor in the Mule's natural weapons, though the donkey is less hot in this department. Well, I suppose Ponies are 30 gp and could be swung if one did well on wealth and were Small, so there's that potential too.

A Paladin, if he gets average wealth is rocking either chain mail and is dead broke and wielding a club or quarterstaff or his gauntleted fists or has scale mail and enough money for a variety of weapons and gear and even a couple of baggage animals/mounts. If he gets near-max starting wealth he can afford a breastplate and if he gets max then he can get a breastplate, his mount+lance, and some other weapons with a little bit left over(though he couldn't afford a greatsword and breastplate without some sort of finagling anyway, and if we allow for crafting then we allow for animal training time and definitely enough moolah).

You just have to be willing to ride a mule, or donkey if one is Small and wants to maintain a Medium profile while mounted.

[eastmabl]

Eh, you may want to optimize maximum likely damage to deal with damage resistance, so that you can at least hurt it on a good damage roll. If the question is "how often will I exceed 10 damage" criticals might help with that.

I edited my post during before I saw yours; you can take a look at the updated post. I'd dig into it more right now, but my employer might take umbrance at me spending an unnecessary amount of time arguing about damages of weapons in a pen and paper RPG on their dime.

[Shining Wrath]

That's... a weird way to put it. :smallconfused: We're discussing playing a game, not whether something is canon to a series.

I mean, sure, you could try to debate whether it's rules text or not or whether it's rules text from WOTC or not, but that's fairly secondary to whether one wants to allow it at the table or specifically ban it.



The main downside is that it's practically begging for a kneejerk reaction that the gauntlets would have to be fused together in one piece.

But the idea definitely is something I find intriguing.



That definitely sounds tasty *goes off to read*



I always forget about that, and then when reminded I get the same evil thrill. XD



Refresh my memory, what causes Lucerne Hammers to stand out? The main thing I recall is reach + bludgeoning without being exotic.



At level 1, your mount options are A. Wild Cohort (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), B. Animal Companion, C. hoping that you can get a 25 gp guard dog with riding dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) stats and being small, or D. Mules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mule.htm)/Donkeys (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/donkey.htm), which cost less (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#mountsAndRelatedGear) than the lance itself. So that's 18 gp for a lance and a mount at 1st level, and for 8 gp and 1st level, those are pretty darn good mounts. The mule is arguably tougher and stronger than its rider at 1st level. Although adding barding would bump that up to either 38 gp or 58 gp, depending upon padded or leather. Only 8 gp more than a greatsword though, but probably more average damage when you factor in the Mule's natural weapons, though the donkey is less hot in this department. Well, I suppose Ponies are 30 gp and could be swung if one did well on wealth and were Small, so there's that potential too.

A Paladin, if he gets average wealth is rocking either chain mail and is dead broke and wielding a club or quarterstaff or his gauntleted fists or has scale mail and enough money for a variety of weapons and gear and even a couple of baggage animals/mounts. If he gets near-max starting wealth he can afford a breastplate and if he gets max then he can get a breastplate, his mount+lance, and some other weapons with a little bit left over(though he couldn't afford a greatsword and breastplate without some sort of finagling anyway, and if we allow for crafting then we allow for animal training time and definitely enough moolah).

You just have to be willing to ride a mule, or donkey if one is Small and wants to maintain a Medium profile while mounted.

I have played with DMs who would not permit a weapon or feat or spell unless I could produce the book in which it appeared.

[Coidzor]

I have played with DMs who would not permit a weapon or feat or spell unless I could produce the book in which it appeared.

Yeah, that's not exactly unheard of, though the ones who disallow WOTC web content and web expansions because it didn't get printed into a book paint themselves as sticks in the mud on their own.

That's still not really a response to what I said though. :smallconfused:

[mikeejimbo]

It sounds mostly like you're dealing with a DM who hates charging in general then. Not much that can be said when you've got diabolus ex machina all over the tin.

(Nah, it's not really that bad. I was exaggerating for humorous effect on the reaction. We typically don't try anything too convoluted, which I always got the sense the charging rules were, but I may have been mistaken.)

[Coidzor]

(Nah, it's not really that bad. I was exaggerating for humorous effect on the reaction. We typically don't try anything too convoluted, which I always got the sense the charging rules were, but I may have been mistaken.)

I've always found the charging rules to be fairly straightforward aside from how they decided to be pants-on-head stupid about the specific wording for mounted charging and the way that the ride-by-attack feat just plain doesn't work as written and is one of the dysfunctional rules in the dysfunctional rules handbook.

Now, grappling rules? Those are convoluted.

[Urpriest]

At level 1, your mount options are A. Wild Cohort (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), B. Animal Companion, C. hoping that you can get a 25 gp guard dog with riding dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) stats and being small, or D. Mules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mule.htm)/Donkeys (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/donkey.htm), which cost less (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#mountsAndRelatedGear) than the lance itself. So that's 18 gp for a lance and a mount at 1st level, and for 8 gp and 1st level, those are pretty darn good mounts. The mule is arguably tougher and stronger than its rider at 1st level. Although adding barding would bump that up to either 38 gp or 58 gp, depending upon padded or leather. Only 8 gp more than a greatsword though, but probably more average damage when you factor in the Mule's natural weapons, though the donkey is less hot in this department. Well, I suppose Ponies are 30 gp and could be swung if one did well on wealth and were Small, so there's that potential too.


Eh...Mules are awesome, don't get me wrong, but they're not combat-trained by default. That's sort of a pain to deal with.

[Coidzor]

Eh...Mules are awesome, don't get me wrong, but they're not combat-trained by default. That's sort of a pain to deal with.

Skill points are at a premium for Paladins, yeah. Though non-war horses aren't exactly combat-trained either.

[Captnq]

The optimizer said your Build sucks?

Let's make him cry.

Go to my sig, get the EVD.
Go to the spells section. Go to spell lists. Get the complete list of Paladin spells. You'll need it later. Start reading now.

As for your weapons, greatsword is a great choice. THW is better then TWF. Shields are next to useless statistically.

Look up the weapon section for suggestions as well.

Buy Blister Oil. Get it by the gallon.

[Zytil]

Refresh my memory, what causes Lucerne Hammers to stand out? The main thing I recall is reach + bludgeoning without being exotic.

Martial weapon with bludgeoning or piercing with reach and x4 crit. 2d4 damage

[Talya]

Wait really?

Edit: i am incorrect, i guess my group just extended the logic there. Though our change does make it a better feat

It's okay. It's a common enough discussion here that it is in my song (click the "We didn't cast the [Fire]" link in my signature.)

[TuggyNE]

Also, as another critique of crit fishing:

Note that you might be forced to deal with a DR that you're not outfitted to deal with (low level characters in particular, where the gold might not stretch for you to have the right weapon for the monster).

Reliably getting the higher average and maximum damage output on a successful attack could be the different between doing damage and clawing ineffectually at your target.

For example: DR 10/silver on a CR wererat v. Str 16 fighting man:

Average greatsword: 2d6 (7) + Str (+3 x 1.5 = +4) = 11 damage, or 1 actual damage.
Maximum greatsword: 2d6 (12) + Str (+4 as above) = 16 damage, or 6 actual damage.
Average crit for greatsword: 4d6 (14) + Str (4x2=8) = 22 damage, which puts the wererat from full health to staggered in a mighty swing.

Without a crit, the greatword has a 58% chance of doing damage to the wererat.

Average falchion: 2d4 (5) + Str (+3 x 1.5 = +4) = 8 damage, or 0 actual damage.
Maximum falchion: 2d4 (8) + Str (+4 as above) = 12 damage, or 2 actual damage.
Average crit for falchion: 4d4 (10) + Str (4x2=8) = 18 damage, which puts a crimp in the wererat's step with 8 actual damage.

Without a crit, the falchion only has a 18% chance of doing any damage to the wererat - and a maximum chance of 2 damage.

This is basically irrelevant; with or without DR, there's just not enough bonus damage here to make the falchion worthwhile in either case.

At exactly 40 bonus damage against 10 DR, you've got the falchion at ~35 per hit and ~80 per 15% chance crit vs the greatsword at ~37 per hit and ~84 per 10% chance crit, or 41.75 vs 41.7 average. Same breakpoint, as far as I can tell.

[eastmabl]

This is basically irrelevant; with or without DR, there's just not enough bonus damage here to make the falchion worthwhile in either case.

At exactly 40 bonus damage against 10 DR, you've got the falchion at ~35 per hit and ~80 per 15% chance crit vs the greatsword at ~37 per hit and ~84 per 10% chance crit, or 41.75 vs 41.7 average. Same breakpoint, as far as I can tell.

Forgive me - I might have missed it. Where is the 40 bonus damage coming from at a lower level? Note that my math assumes lower levels.


Note that you might be forced to deal with a DR that you're not outfitted to deal with (low level characters in particular, where the gold might not stretch for you to have the right weapon for the monster).

[TuggyNE]

Forgive me - I might have missed it. Where is the 40 bonus damage coming from at a lower level? Note that my math assumes lower levels.

If you do not have 40 bonus damage to sling around, and do not have some crit range improvement, the greatsword is simply superior to the falchion, period, end of story. DR is irrelevant to this conclusion; the superiority exists with or without it.

[AkbarTheGreat]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but forget being Paladin.

Be an oracle. Take lame as your curse. Get to level 5 (which makes you immune to fatigue) and be a barbarian (my preference is Titan Mauler for using extra big weapons.) Now you can rage cycle because you can't be fatigued, and you get good spell choices and oracle destinies that do things like let you roll for initiative multiple times or get free weapon feats for one weapon (see your greatsword). Suddenly you're power attacking with Bull's strength, divine favor, and enlarge person, all cast by yourself. Throw in Furious Focus (which all power attackers of all kind should have anyway) and you're still hitting like it ain't no thang.

Now, if only the Rage Prophet prc allowed you to gain new abilities in both classes at the same time as well as improving your current ones, then we'd all be having more fun.

[Amphetryon]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but forget being Paladin.

Be an oracle. Take lame as your curse. Get to level 5 (which makes you immune to fatigue) and be a barbarian (my preference is Titan Mauler for using extra big weapons.) Now you can rage cycle because you can't be fatigued, and you get good spell choices and oracle destinies that do things like let you roll for initiative multiple times or get free weapon feats for one weapon (see your greatsword). Suddenly you're power attacking with Bull's strength, divine favor, and enlarge person, all cast by yourself. Throw in Furious Focus (which all power attackers of all kind should have anyway) and you're still hitting like it ain't no thang.

Now, if only the Rage Prophet prc allowed you to gain new abilities in both classes at the same time as well as improving your current ones, then we'd all be having more fun.

No indication in the OP that Pathfinder is the game, or that backporting PF into a 3.5 game is viable. The majority of the responses are 3.5 specific, if you'll notice.

[AkbarTheGreat]

No indication in the OP that Pathfinder is the game, or that backporting PF into a 3.5 game is viable. The majority of the responses are 3.5 specific, if you'll notice.

Majority? Yes. All of them? No. The OP also never once said 3.5, PF, 4e, or any type of game in his post. Just throwing out ideas for all sorts on the topic, no need to be anal about it.

[Amphetryon]

Majority? Yes. All of them? No. The OP also never once said 3.5, PF, 4e, or any type of game in his post. Just throwing out ideas for all sorts on the topic, no need to be anal about it.

Could you point out another post that gave Pathfinder-specific advice? I went back through and couldn't find any.

[CombatOwl]

Refresh my memory, what causes Lucerne Hammers to stand out? The main thing I recall is reach + bludgeoning without being exotic.

Sadly, AFAIK it's only available in 3.5e through a Dragon issue, and the 3.5e version is worse (2d4 rather than 1d12, though it does have a better crit multiplier). The Pathfinder version, however, is amazing. It's only an option if the DM is running Pathfinder or will let you bring in the weapon from Pathfinder or Dragon. It's not that big of a stretch, but some GMs don't like to consider that.

As for why it's good... it's a high damage B or P martial weapon with reach. The fact that it can also be braced if needed and gives a bonus on sunder is just icing on the cake. If you're stuck with martial weapons it's hard to go wrong with lucerne hammers.

It's a better choice that guisarme unless you expand that guisarme's crit range.

[Zombulian]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but forget being Paladin.

Be an oracle. Take lame as your curse. Get to level 5 (which makes you immune to fatigue) and be a barbarian (my preference is Titan Mauler for using extra big weapons.) Now you can rage cycle because you can't be fatigued, and you get good spell choices and oracle destinies that do things like let you roll for initiative multiple times or get free weapon feats for one weapon (see your greatsword). Suddenly you're power attacking with Bull's strength, divine favor, and enlarge person, all cast by yourself. Throw in Furious Focus (which all power attackers of all kind should have anyway) and you're still hitting like it ain't no thang.

Now, if only the Rage Prophet prc allowed you to gain new abilities in both classes at the same time as well as improving your current ones, then we'd all be having more fun.

>entire thread about letting a guy play what he wants as long as he's having fun
>comes in and tells him how to play
>dis guy

[Coidzor]

Sadly, AFAIK it's only available in 3.5e through a Dragon issue, and the 3.5e version is worse (2d4 rather than 1d12, though it does have a better crit multiplier). The Pathfinder version, however, is amazing. It's only an option if the DM is running Pathfinder or will let you bring in the weapon from Pathfinder or Dragon. It's not that big of a stretch, but some GMs don't like to consider that.

As for why it's good... it's a high damage B or P martial weapon with reach. The fact that it can also be braced if needed and gives a bonus on sunder is just icing on the cake. If you're stuck with martial weapons it's hard to go wrong with lucerne hammers.

It's a better choice that guisarme unless you expand that guisarme's crit range.

Definitely sounds good. Can it trip as well or does the guisarme still have that at least?


Could you point out another post that gave Pathfinder-specific advice? I went back through and couldn't find any.

Clearly they were-
:smallcool:
Trailblazing.

[CombatOwl]

Definitely sounds good. Can it trip as well or does the guisarme still have that at least?

No tripping, sadly. Guisarme still has that. If you're tripping, guisarme is the better choice. Though if you're tripping, I have no idea why you don't just spend the feat for spiked chain proficiency which lets you trip adjacent foes as well.

[eggynack]

Though if you're tripping, I have no idea why you don't just spend the feat for spiked chain proficiency which lets you trip adjacent foes as well.
You just answered your own question. Some feats are quite useful, with versatility possibly exceeding that of being able to hit adjacent opponents. I mean, there might be some higher level at which upgrading is a good idea, but your first feat should certainly not be exotic weapon proficiency.

Edit: Probably not the second either, or the third. Realistically, you're going to at least want improved trip prior to spiked chain, and that requires either a couple of monk or barbarian levels, or combat expertise. Combat reflexes is also likely superior on some builds, as is knock-down. It might even be worth leaving trip-relevant feats before getting EWP, perhaps to pursue something like shock trooper, and maybe returning later.

[CombatOwl]

You just answered your own question. Some feats are quite useful, with versatility possibly exceeding that of being able to hit adjacent opponents. I mean, there might be some higher level at which upgrading is a good idea, but your first feat should certainly not be exotic weapon proficiency.

Eh? If you're a level 1 fighter, that spiked chain is going to be worth way more to you at low levels than it will at high levels. Spending one of your five feats (human with flaws, obviously) on it seems reasonable. Especially if your DM has retraining rules in place. Knockdown depends on the version you're using, and combat reflexes may not be a great idea at all depending on your dexterity. Say you only have 13 dex? No point in combat reflexes at level 1.

If you're a warblade, you've got even more reason.

[eggynack]

Eh? If you're a level 1 fighter, that spiked chain is going to be worth way more to you at low levels than it will at high levels. Spending one of your five feats (human with flaws, obviously) on it seems reasonable. Especially if your DM has retraining rules in place. Knockdown depends on the version you're using, and combat reflexes may not be a great idea at all depending on your dexterity. Say you only have 13 dex? No point in combat reflexes at level 1.
Spending a feat on EWP: spiked chain is certainly a viable choice. It's just not the only choice, and that makes the guisarme a potentially big role player in tripping builds. For example, say that all of the things you're mentioning were the exact opposite way. There are no flaws, knock-down uses the most recent version, you have good dexterity, and so on and so forth. If you have the spare feats, then go right ahead with spiked chain use, but not every build has the spare feats, and the spiked chain is quite non-essential.

Edit: Also, combat reflexes at level one is pretty good with 13 dexterity. You get an additional AoO, which is often going to be plenty when you lack extra AoO sources, and you get to AoO when flat-footed, which is nice.

[Togo]

There are so many feats to take in a tripping build, I've never found a spiked chain to be high on the list. I've never found the ability to trip with a weapon at 5ft to be all that important.

[Coidzor]

That's part of why I love the idea of weapon group feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm) as a variant rule. What's that? I can basically get proficiency with any weapon I want with most classes if I juggle things right?