Question on how to stack types

[pwykersotz]

Let's say you have a human monk who gets turned into a Vampire. For whatever reason, be it RP or a Helm of Opposite Alignment, the CE change doesn't happen and he remains lawful and keeps leveling in monk. When he reaches level 20 he becomes an outsider (native).

My question is, how do the two types interact? I can see a few ways.

1. The new type completely replaces the old one. Any benefits of the old type are lost.
2. The new type combines with the old one. All benefits are cumulative, and the creature is treated as both for the purposes of any spells or effects.
3. The new type is taken, but the creature retains any benefits of the old type while losing the name.
4. The type becomes outsider - augmented humanoid, undead immunities and other traits are stripped.

Number 1 seems reasonable, if a bit sad for the lack of synergy.

Number 2 is more in line with how I've seen people stacking subtypes, but it doesn't seem to work as if a regular human did it, he would then become immune to effects that work on Humanoids. Probably not this one.

Number 3 is an odd one, but it might have some merit. After all, the undead body doesn't necessarily become living just because of a template application, and the fact that it's not alive and powered by negative energy is what gives it it's immunities.

Number 4 seems the most likely. All changes of the type such as immunities and lack of a Con score would be stripped, but all effects of the vampire template such as Gaseous Form, creating spawn, and weakness to sunlight would remain. Or would they?

Anyway, what do you guys think, how would you combine them?

[Sith_Happens]

At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects.

Monks don't actually become Outsiders, they just pretend to be Outsiders (talk about insult to injury...).

[pwykersotz]

Shows you how much I play monks. :smalltongue: The question remains though, as there are many spells, effects, or classes which will force a type change.

[TuggyNE]

Shows you how much I play monks. :smalltongue: The question remains though, as there are many spells, effects, or classes which will force a type change.

The details depend on the class, but generally if your type changes, it's overwritten; all traits from the old type are lost and replaced by all traits from the new type, and the same happens for any features from racial HD. The augmented subtype is used, I believe, only for templates; classes that add a template at some point would presumably add it accordingly.

[Phelix-Mu]

Types, from my understanding, aren't normally capable of being "combined." A creature gets a type. One.

If there is an effect that allows type change, but retention of some traits/qualities of the old type, or something similar, than that specific effect details that interaction. Absent some specific text, a type change erases the benefits of the old type and adds the benefits of the new type.

That said, this is another area of unforeseen interaction among developers. Some thought is given to similar issues in Savage Species with template stacking and such, but generally this way lies much hair-pulling/beating of breasts/gnashing of teeth.

Finally, there is some grayness with what subtypes are gained/retained/lost. Only augmented and extraplanar, off the top of my head, are ever described as coming and going. I'd assume, therefor, that other subtypes are retained absent rules stating otherwise.

[Urpriest]

In general, the new type replaces the old one, and you lose the benefits of the old type. This gets a bit fuzzy with templates that explicitly let you keep the special qualities of your original form, since it's unclear which special qualities were from your type and which you had independently.

Note that you do keep your nonabilities, which often grant immunities of their own. This leads to the odd situation of Outsiders or Aberrations or the like with Con --, but there isn't any rule that prevents this or that causes a character to instantly die if they become the "wrong" type with this active. Any type can have Con --, it's just that Constructs and Undead always do.

[KillianHawkeye]

Savage Species had a type pyramid which detailed what happened if you tried to become a dragon but you were already undead or some similar ocurrence, but I think a lot of people don't really consider it valid for 3.5 for some reason.

[Anxe]

The Savage Species pyramid had a few types sharing each position on the pyramid, even the top position. Outsider, Undead, and Construct all shared the top position. Thus the specific example of a vampire monk doesn't really get answered there. We could look for examples? Are there any extraplanar undead creatures? What's their type? That might give us a hint or it might not (Those creatures were likely outsiders prior to being undead, the opposite of our current example).

I think the best answer we can give is, "It's up to the DM."

EDIT: Found such an example in the Epic Level Handbook. Hunefers are mummies of demigods. Thus they would be outsiders that turned into undead. They have the undead type. Now we need to find an undead that turned into an outsider. Vecna should be a good one for that. He's also an undead. Thus we can assume that the undead type trumps the outsider type. The vampire monk still counts as an undead.