Unbalanced?

[HeroComplex]

Does anyone else think that :haley: is overpowered and :vaarsuvius: is underpowered?

I played Elan once as well, and all he could really do was run around and grab left over loot that was in a free room when his turn came up.

Any ideas?

[Fireball.Man.Guy.]

A lot of the game is luck, and depends on what shticks amd Screw This cards you habe. I once, as Roy, with a "I forgot they could do that" card and range 0 shticks, beat Samantha in the first round of combat.

[The Giant]

Yeah, there's a lot of luck involved. Vaarsuvius can wipe out large numbers of enemies at range in one roll with Fireball, it's just a matter of learning how best to use it. If the stairs to the 2nd Floor are near the Dungeon Entrance, you can stand on the 2nd Floor and Fireball any stack that other players draw, then hurry back to the Entrance to rest/unflip in safety. A few turns of that and you should have plenty of Monsters to trade for shticks.

I won with V the last time we played the game at my house, so I don't think s/he's underpowered, though maybe s/he is a little tougher to learn.

With Elan, there's no reason he can't run into a new room and trigger a new battle. Yes, he might not have the Defense to win, but he might roll a 12 and get lucky. I think a lot of people have trouble with Elan because they are overstrategizing--they don't look for a battle unless they think they can win it. If you get over that and accept that as long as you don't lose your last Wound, it's OK to get beaten by a monster, Elan becomes much more playable. Just cruise around the first level triggering new battles until someone plays a weak monster or you roll a 12, and pop back to the Entrance whenever you lose 2 Wounds.

[Totally Guy]

We have had a hard time getting V right but he's not without victories. The trouble with Vaarsuvius is actually getting another player to leave a stack of monsters and be in a room unoccupied by monsters. I always find myself cursing at the difficulty of getting the megaphone to boost Verbose Recitation because V is so much better on attack.

I use Belkars hide move a lot as well, he's a high attack character which does make it a little slower to kill stuff.

Durkon is especially good in the invincible Xykon scenario (we are playing with the double horde interpretation of hording, that is each horde ability stacks), with turn undead or the rest/WWTD combo to hog the Screw This cards.

The other three seem to have the ability to dominate the board more easily but that is by no means strictly victory. One time Roy and Belkar had teamed up (each player controls 2 characters, with restrictions on passing loot to and fro) and obliterated Xykon, and Haley ended up winning despite never even visiting Xykon's Lair.

[mport2004]

I just finished a game about 3 hours ago using V 2 magic missle cards and a scroll that bosts magic missle is usefull it gives you a reasonable chance to defend your self and kill most monsters

[Millennium]

I wouldn't say it's necessarily unbalanced, but the different PCs need to be used very differently (which is part of the point). If you try to play V the same way you play Haley, for example, you're in trouble.

V is a character who is after personal power, and it reflects well in the gameplay. Once you get good with Fireball, you can rip through entire rooms full of monsters at range. You won't get as much loot this way (everyone else will be able to nab it before you), but you'll get XP much faster than almost everyone else. V's game is all about the shticks, much like Haley's game is all about the loot.

[Raistlin1040]

I've only played 2 games in total (One as Elan, another as V) and I won both. With V, the secret is knowing your limits. V has a lot of raw power but can be hard to master. You need to know when to part with your fireball to take out a lot of enemies. I never use Fireball on 1 enemy. Even though Magic Missile is a lot weaker it is good for dealing with 1 enemy.

[Jester42]

The key to playing V is to rest well away from Belkar :)

[Raistlin1040]

Yeah. That too.

[smellie_hippie]

Does anyone else think that :haley: is overpowered and :vaarsuvius: is underpowered?


I've played twice, and both times randomly ended up with Haley. I came in dead last the first game. :smallfrown:

I rocked the house the second game. :smallbiggrin:

It's all about the strategy. :smallwink:

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

Strategy seems to be key, as well as the ability to play "In Character." If you're not willing to attack others as Belkar, you are at a serious disadvantage, since many schitcks will be useless to you. I thought the little halfling was underpowered until I saw someone with a ruthless soul use him to pounce on Roy after someone broke Roy's sword.

By the same token, going alone as Elan isn't going to help you any.

[Raistlin1040]

After Llama's testimony Judge Raistlin has ruled that Belkar will be the next character he plays.

[Indurain]

Strategy seems to be key, as well as the ability to play "In Character." If you're not willing to attack others as Belkar, you are at a serious disadvantage, since many schitcks will be useless to you. I thought the little halfling was underpowered until I saw someone with a ruthless soul use him to pounce on Roy after someone broke Roy's sword.

By the same token, going alone as Elan isn't going to help you any.

Someone with a ruthless soul eh?

You know that situation sounds very familiar to me...where have I heard that before? *ponders* Let's see, I've played 3 times...the first two there was no Belkar...the third one...WAIT A MINUTE...YOU WERE BELKAR...AND ALARRA BROKE ZRS ROY'S SWORD. You're a ruthless soul Llama...RUTHLESS!!

[Harkone]

In the games I have played so far, all the characters seem equally usable. Roy is obviously the most adept at defeating Xykon, but I have seen every character win the game at least once. I have found Elan and Haley to be deceptively good (in my opinion), and Vaarsuvius tends to end up low on loot (due to ranged attacking), but otherwise it seems like a pretty even playing field. Way to go, Game Designers!

[Kiero]

Does anyone else think that :haley: is overpowered and :vaarsuvius: is underpowered?

I played Elan once as well, and all he could really do was run around and grab left over loot that was in a free room when his turn came up.

Any ideas?

That's been exactly my experience in the four games I've played now; Hayley is the easiest character to play, V the hardest. Indeed Haley's player has won every single time, though the decider on Bragging Rights was actually who killed Xykon a lot of the time. But there is a massive discrepancy in the amount of Loot she gets, and she's just as good as Roy up close.

Ranged combat seems pointless to me. You effectively miss a turn to shoot at something someone else triggered and couldn't beat, then someone else gets in and grabs your loot. Which is exactly why V is the weakest character, even with his/her raven. Everyone who played Haley played her like Roy - get in close, use Longbow+Sneak Attack, then grab up all the Loot.

But like Roy, she's especially vulnerable to the Broken Weapon Screw This! card.

Elan is very good if you can persuade people to keep accepting your help; the value of that is very good once you get a few boosts to Bard Song. Loot certainly flows your way as I found when I played him. What was especially good are those that are jointly Drooled Over by him and one other character, which I did a lot of swapping back and forth with their player.

IMO no one should be trading Loot for Schticks, it's a bad economy. You're reducing the number of Bragging Rights you'll have for Loot by three and only raising that for Schticks by one. Net result: each time you trade Loot for Schticks you've just cost yourself two points of Bragging Rights.

My biggest concern (much as I do enjoy the game) is that it runs really slow. Unless everyone is thinking always go directly for the lower levels, they turtle on the upper ones for ages. We didn't have a lot of player v player antagonism, I can only imagine that would slow things down even more.

I wrote a pretty lengthy review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12760.phtml) with all my views on the pro and con side. In any case still one of my favourite board games.

[Harkone]

I have to admit that the more I play, the more I've come to agree with what Kiero said. The game slows down considerably towards the end, as each player has many options, strategies, and tactics to consider before they make any part of their turn. Roy and Haley seem to be the best for monster-slaying (and thus acquiring shticks, and defeating Xykon), with Durkon a close but still inferior runner-up, Elan is only useful if people ask him for alot of help, Belkar is fun but also fairly weak at fighting monsters (especially when he enters a new/empty room and has to be on defense), and Vaarsuvious the worst because of his focus on ranged attacks (which leaves him without enough loot).

After playing the game about a dozen times, I have learned (like many others apparently have) that the game is all about loot accumulation; the last (short, 3-level+Xykon) game I won (with Roy) despite having the least number of schticks of any of the players and exiting the dungeon last, but I had the most Drooled Over loot (and I defeated Xykon, a task that is incredibly easy for Roy to the point of unfairness). Especially once Roy boosts his Great Cleavage and Greenhilt Sword even once each, he can plunge into the lower levels ahead of the others and battle more and more monsters in multi-monster battles (using Great Cleavage), get more schticks and loot, and get to Xykon long before anyone else.

Is there any way to rectify this problem?

[The Giant]

I wrote a pretty lengthy review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12760.phtml) with all my views on the pro and con side. In any case still one of my favourite board games.

Hey there, I read your review, and I would like to point out that you have some errors and/or mistaken impressions in it.

1.) Haley does not have any more Loot than any other player; all 6 players have exactly the same number of Loot faces, distributed over the same number of cards.

2.) All Monsters are played into the battle at the bottom of the stack, so they are faced First in, First Out. The top Monster is always the first monster played. Henchmen break this rule by scurrying to the bottom of the stack right before the actual fighting begins.

3.) Therefore, Xykon *is* supposed to be on the top of the stack of monsters, or else players will plow through weak monsters before fighting a properly-supported Xykon. Yes, that means the monsters then surrender/run awaywhen Xykon is killed, exactly as happened in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html).

I would appreciate it if you could, at the least, edit the factual error about Haley's Loot. Thanks.

[Kiero]

Not sure how I edit, but I've asked the question. At the very least someone else should be able to amend it for me.

[nivek1234]

If you scroll to the post while logged in, there should be an "Edit" option next to "Quote" in the bottom right corner of the post.

[Kiero]

If you scroll to the post while logged in, there should be an "Edit" option next to "Quote" in the bottom right corner of the post.

Not edit the post here, edit my review over on RPGnet. :smallsmile:

[nivek1234]

Oops... In that case I have no clue.

[Jamin]

I really think it is all in how you play them. I seen every character get at least in 2nd place. Vaarsuvius has a +5 attack at the start of the game. It takes 4 shticks for Haley to get there. So ha.

[Kiero]

I really think it is all in how you play them. I seen every character get at least in 2nd place. Vaarsuvius has a +5 attack at the start of the game. It takes 4 shticks for Haley to get there. So ha.

Except that V's is a ranged attack (which are inferior generally to melee ones, since someone else always steals the Loot you just liberated) and flippable too. Give me reliable, unflippable, useful in Defence schticks any day.

[Logos7]

And That's Why their's Limit's to the Loot that can be picked up,

I'm sure you perfer a different style, but regardless of what you perfer, the balance is still their.

Seeing V drop 3+ monsters and 6+ loot means enough for everyone

Logos

[Trinak]

Thats all handy for V to drop that many monsters, if you get that many monsters in a room. My experience has been that the game is too long so we usually play only 2 -3 floors (then Xykons). For V to use his wonderful fireball spell someone has to lose to the monsters (which doesn't happen often by the third floor), or he has to lose to a set and nuke from the room he's in (costing him 2 wounds). His best option would be to hope for a monster he can beat, then nuke the rest of the room.

[Kiero]

And That's Why their's Limit's to the Loot that can be picked up,

I'm sure you perfer a different style, but regardless of what you perfer, the balance is still their.

Seeing V drop 3+ monsters and 6+ loot means enough for everyone

Logos

Limits on Loot pickup make no difference if there's three or four other players more than willing to swoop in and grab stuff before your next turn. Especially if one of them is Hailey with Greed is Good.

Ranged is inferior to Melee, not least because you can't be there to get your two bonus Loot.

[apegamer]

Ranged is inferior to Melee, not least because you can't be there to get your two bonus Loot.

We tried to balance ranged vs. not ranged and attack vs. defense as much as possible. Hopefully we succeeded on at least a basic level.

A couple other advantages V has attacking from range are:

1) The Fireball shtick can take out multiple monsters with a single die roll. This means that he/she can put the odds in his/her favor to defeat the toughest monster, then not have to worry, like other characters, about having to make multiple rolls and flubbing an easy roll, thus ending the turn.

2) By attacking from range, V (and any char with ranged shticks) can often avoid taking damage if they miss the roll, since the monster won't have range back.

[Harkone]

Many of the monsters worth fireballing do seem to have the range to strike back, however.

Since winning the game nearly always boils down to who has the most loot, I'll take melee attacks (attack or defense) to ranged any day. This means Haley remains the best character, closely followed by Roy and more distantly followed by Durkon; Vaarsuvius unfortunately remains the worst.

That said, I nearly won a game the other night with Elan just by hanging back and collecting loot for assisting others. I didn't even think about fighting Xykon and only rarely took on monsters myself (I did so only when I had sufficient loot to ask for alot of help). However, I didn't win; I nearly won.

[RibbonViking]

Unfortunately, I've only played with more than two people a couple times, but :vaarsuvius: seems to be pretty strong. On top of the other suggestions previously, he (she? it?) can just walk into a room and try the magic missile. If it fails, he's there for the next round and (assuming nobody else comes in and clears it out first) can fireball immediately. Sure she may take another hit from it, but it's got other schticks that prevent damage, and they've gotta rest to get the Fireball back anyway.

For a while I did believe that :haley: was overpowered, but then we realized that Swipe didn't do any damage, it just meant that she got a Loot out of the pile. After that edit, she fell more in line with everyone else.

:elan: and :belkar: (and :durkon: to a lesser extent) seem to suffer, though, when played in games with fewer players, as their strengths are less geared toward holding their own in combat, and more dependent upon other players. I will say that so far we've only ever played with Belkar once, though, because we're generally too nice, and don't want to beat the other players down, so I may not have an accurate picture of him yet. :smallsmile:

[Harkone]

Even with the weak Swipe power (why steal monsters' loot when you can just kill them and take it?), Haley still seems the strongest. As someone else here pointed out earlier in the thread, she starts the game better than Roy on attack and defense (+3 w/ the Longbow and Sneak Attack, which make it almost pointless to bother taking Hide) and improves in combat as she gets the 2nd Lonbow and the Alchemical Arrows. She also has the schticks to get more quality loot (Come To Me My Pretties and Greed is Good), which is really the name of the game. By the time Vaarsuvius makes ranged attacks, rests, makes ranged attacks, and rests some more, Haley is already winning the game by gathering alot more loot and possibly defeating Xykon (only Roy is more suitable for that than Haley, and he won't have nearly the amount of loot she will have).

Belkar has to be ruthless, as he is much less adept at fighting (especially multiple) monsters than he is at attacking players and taking their loot. With his poor Defense, he simply cannot just walk into new rooms and provoke combat; he has to hang back and either use Leaping Attack to attack the top monster in a room that was laid on another player's turn or hang back and attack other players to get the loot they have gotten from defeating monsters.


Unfortunately, I've only played with more than two people a couple times...elan and belkar (and durkon to a lesser extent) seem to suffer, though, when played in games with fewer players, as their strengths are less geared toward holding their own in combat, and more dependent upon other players. I will say that so far we've only ever played with Belkar once, though, because we're generally too nice, and don't want to beat the other players down, so I may not have an accurate picture of him yet.

What I recommend when playing with only 2 players is to have each player control 2 characters, who then act as a team (not attacking each other, totalling Bragging Points at the end together, etc.). That way teh Elans and Durkons of the world can contribute alot more.

[Kiero]

We tried to balance ranged vs. not ranged and attack vs. defense as much as possible. Hopefully we succeeded on at least a basic level.

A couple other advantages V has attacking from range are:

1) The Fireball shtick can take out multiple monsters with a single die roll. This means that he/she can put the odds in his/her favor to defeat the toughest monster, then not have to worry, like other characters, about having to make multiple rolls and flubbing an easy roll, thus ending the turn.

Only time we ever experienced something like this was when someone uncovered a monster stack they couldn't handle themselves. Point is you're purely reactive when trying to play ranged, waiting for others to create battles they can't handle so you can zap them. Or else wasting turns getting "into position" while others are fighting battles almost every turn and getting Loot and XP both.

Melee-ers, especially those with half-decent Defense can fight a battle every turn. Ranged-ers can't unless they stay in the same spot blasting away and accepting they'll get XP but no Loot. Not to mention that V has to keep resting to refresh his Fireball - more turns of not fighting battles.


2) By attacking from range, V (and any char with ranged shticks) can often avoid taking damage if they miss the roll, since the monster won't have range back.

Too many of the more powerful monsters have ranged attacks themselves, often longer ranges than V. Furthermore, if you're attacking from five rooms away, by the time you get there all the Loot will be gone.

The groups I played with weren't especially antagonistic towards each other (no PvP at all), but no one left "free" Loot lying around. We also only ever played short games (3 levels - even they took five hours) which might make a difference.

[V Junior]

It's not unbalanced, as the Giant said on Page 1. I've had a look at it all, and, to be honest, there's a balance. I've come up with stratagies for each player:

Roy: Get down to Xykon as fast as possible, while checking you have enough stuff.
Elan: Bard Song your way to loot, loot and more Loot!
Haley: Swipe as much loot as possible, but keep far away from Belkar!
V: Take out multiple opponents all at once, but keep far away from Belkar!
Belkar: Just start killing! V/Haley may stick around in one place- good for killing and looting.
Durkon: Use Cure Assorted Wounds as much as possible on other players, to get maximum Loot!

No unbalance now!

[Kiero]

It's not unbalanced, as the Giant said on Page 1. I've had a look at it all, and, to be honest, there's a balance. I've come up with stratagies for each player:

Roy: Get down to Xykon as fast as possible, while checking you have enough stuff.
Elan: Bard Song your way to loot, loot and more Loot!
Haley: Swipe as much loot as possible, but keep far away from Belkar!
V: Take out multiple opponents all at once, but keep far away from Belkar!
Belkar: Just start killing! V/Haley may stick around in one place- good for killing and looting.
Durkon: Use Cure Assorted Wounds as much as possible on other players, to get maximum Loot!

No unbalance now!

Except most of those require everyone else to "play along". And someone playing Belkar, which we've never had in any of our games to date since they appear to be the only effective check on Haley (yet also make V even weaker).

Besides which, Haley is just as effective "playing Roy" and melee-ing with everything.

[SPoD]

I haven't seen any imbalance in our games. Vaarsuvius is always competitive, because she usually can kill monsters faster than anyone else at the beginning of the game due to the area effect. This gives her more draws from her shtick deck early, and if she gets lightning bolt on one of those, she becomes pretty powerful. Plus, she doesn't NEED to be used at range, it's just safer. If she sticks within 3 spaces of the entrance, she can Fireball at will, knowing that next turn she can pop back for healing, unflipping, and safety from attacks. She can just build up her strength there and then descend when she's ready.

The best friend of Vaarsuvius is another player having a tough time. We've had games where someone else (even a "strong" character like Roy) rolls 1 and 2 every time for a few turns. In those situations, Vaarsuvius becomes a machine, clearing out all the foes they couldn't beat in one Fireball from across the board. She does suffer from the Loot thing in those instances, but getting 2-3 shticks ahead of everyone sometimes means she can delve down to the next level first and that's where the real money is.

Haley is strong, but she's not stronger than (or even "as strong as") Roy. She has a slight advantage on Turn 1, but Roy's sword can grow much more powerful than her bow, and more quickly. Roy can boost his sword to +8 Attack +5 Defense with the Starmetal Chunk, while Haley with all 3 Sneak Attacks and both Longbows only has a +5 Attack and +5 Defense. Plus, Roy's Great Cleavage means he can slice through stacks of enemies with increasing bonuses. Haley doesn't really compete physically, especially against Xykon (where she can't even use her Sneak Attack). That's why she has Loot skills to back her up.