Ruling the Abyss!

[Xar Zarath]

So as the thread title says, a prospective demon lord can gain rulership over a layer if the demon can metaphysically conquer it?

1)However what would happen if a powerful, mortal spellcaster tried to do so? (Remember, epic level wizard)

2)Or if the wizard cant do it, the wizard could also force some entity to rule in their stead?

Note:Ruling a layer could also mean being top dog in the layer and making everything acknowledge that fact

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, they would become a demon lord. Simple as that really.

[Red Fel]

I think Afroakuma addressed this in one of his mythical threads, but as I recall, the Abyss tends to reject beings it deems unworthy of ruling it. (ProTip: That ends badly for everyone involved.)

That said, the specific outcome is likely up to your DM.

Let's invoke the master and find out! Afro, Afro, Afro!

[Alleran]

One specific method at the end of Savage Tide is basically You Kill It You Bought It with regards to rulership of the Gaping Maw and the title of Prince of Demons (with attendant benefits). It's modeled to allow for lower-level players, backed by several armies, to weaken Demogorgon enough that he drops from CR 33 down to a supposedly more manageable number. That said, if you're already an epic level wizard, you don't need to bother with any of that.

So bust down Demogorgon's front door and hand the two-headed monkey a scry-and-fry, then grab the ephemereal crown that manifests on death. Congratulations, you are now the new Prince of Demons. If you can't hang on to the title, though, then I don't like your chances of survival for more than a few months.

[kardar233]

I wonder if it's any different for the Nine Hells.

[123456789blaaa]

I think Afroakuma addressed this in one of his mythical threads, but as I recall, the Abyss tends to reject beings it deems unworthy of ruling it. (ProTip: That ends badly for everyone involved.)

That said, the specific outcome is likely up to your DM.

Let's invoke the master and find out! Afro, Afro, Afro!

I'm not Afro but I have read his threads a lot. As I recall, the Abyss eats beings that aren't closely tied to the plane (and has fun doing it). So you'd need to already be a Unique demon.


One specific method at the end of Savage Tide is basically You Kill It You Bought It with regards to rulership of the Gaping Maw and the title of Prince of Demons (with attendant benefits). It's modeled to allow for lower-level players, backed by several armies, to weaken Demogorgon enough that he drops from CR 33 down to a supposedly more manageable number. That said, if you're already an epic level wizard, you don't need to bother with any of that.

So bust down Demogorgon's front door and hand the two-headed monkey a scry-and-fry, then grab the ephemereal crown that manifests on death. Congratulations, you are now the new Prince of Demons. If you can't hang on to the title, though, then I don't like your chances of survival for more than a few months.

The reason this works is that becoming the Prince of Demons gives you the tanar'ri subtype if you don't already have it. Thus you turn into a Unique demon.


I wonder if it's any different for the Nine Hells.

As long as they gain the title Lawfully, the Layers of Baator will grudgingly let you rule them. However, your link will not be great. The Hag Countess was a non-native ruler and the Layer she ruled was constantly crumbling and coming apart. Boulders detaching from the mountainsides were a constant threat (she actually lived in a giant boulder that rolled down he slopes of the Layer).

[Phelix-Mu]

This reminds me of the thread with the self-replicating bunny-zillas that rampaged through the Abyss, and an attendant and ridiculously in-depth look at whether colossal iron bunnies carrying tactical nukes could actually defeat an infinite number of demons.

That thread should be hard-linked on the list of important threads. That's how mind-breaking that discussion was. Props to skysaber, who was, as I recall, the OP.

[Brookshw]

I'm inclined to second the count on this in that the abyss will reject those unworthy. You might cruch your opponents, but never the abyss. And with an infinite sea of demons, potentially unique ones at that, well, gl!

[Phelix-Mu]

On the other hand, as long as the person doing this plan is willing to become "demon-like," I don't think the Abyss is going to be racist. A paragon of evil and chaos will be welcomed...and subsequently mutated and warped by the corrosive, nature-warping energies of the plane.

Control is a thing of law. As the center of untamed destruction and perversion, the Abyss maintains a delicate balance with all of it's denizens. The demons are laws unto themselves, each doing whatever it can get away with and many things that it can't. Their tendency for self-preservation is minimal, and easily overrun by their passions, obsessions, and rage. The Abyss itself thrives on their energy, and reciprocates back an environment fit to stoke the unquenchable thirsts of the demons, tormenting them with just-out-of-reach satisfaction, then bringing them around as their desire reaches an even new level of intensity.

Really, what self-respecting wizard would want that kind of property. The Abyss is a nice place to visit for the weekend to unwind, relax, blow up any one of its infinite layers. But live there? Play demon prince with some shady crown? That's hardly sensible.

[danzibr]

Interesting. This thread makes it sound as if the abyss has some sort of sentience. Is this the case?

[Phelix-Mu]

Interesting. This thread makes it sound as if the abyss has some sort of sentience. Is this the case?

In a place where the distinction between madness, sentience, and that rock over there is a matter of "poh-tay-toe"/"poh-tah-toe," I imagine that the Abyss is "sentient," yes.

[Brookshw]

Interesting. This thread makes it sound as if the abyss has some sort of sentience. Is this the case?

I started writing three different replies to this, and then gave up because I'm typing from my phone and the answer is, well, long and complicated. In a sense of self awareness? Debatable but I'm skeptical. In a sense of being a primordial embodiment, oh yes, yes indeed.

[afroakuma]

Let's invoke the master and find out! Afro, Afro, Afro!

I am summoned. My wrath be great.

Occupying an Abyssal layer is pretty easy. Make yourself a demon and demonstrate that you're the best thing for the job and tada, you got the spot. Now, normally this involves murdering whoever already had the spot, and that can take some doing, but wizards broken epic broken yada yada just hope whoever you're dislodging isn't you + bat wings. Figuratively speaking.

Being the lord is another matter. You have to be a demon to actually be a demon lord; if not, you'll have to settle for holding onto your claim by pure force and the Abyss won't recognize you. The layer itself will find truly obnoxious ways of making the plane's displeasure known, up to and including inviting challengers to dislodge you and favoring them in combat.


I wonder if it's any different for the Nine Hells.

The Hells do the same thing; if you don't lawfully have a claim to the title, you can't assert its powers. Unlike the Abyss, though, which will personally give you attitude, the Hells just passive-aggressively express their dislike of you and wait for Infernal Enforcement to show up and teach you a lesson.


On the other hand, as long as the person doing this plan is willing to become "demon-like," I don't think the Abyss is going to be racist. A paragon of evil and chaos will be welcomed...and subsequently mutated and warped by the corrosive, nature-warping energies of the plane.

Not necessarily. You really do need to go all the way on the "demon" issue. Mind you, it'll accept any kind of demon, but you've got to get your citizenship straightened out (so to speak) before you can keep the chair. Shapechange won't cut it; the Abyss wants your soul.


Interesting. This thread makes it sound as if the abyss has some sort of sentience. Is this the case?

Oh quite so. Not only is it sentient, it's been heavily implied that it fathered Pale Night's children.

[Brookshw]

And here I was about to post to your thread that you presence was requested.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's kind of one of those chicken-and-egg questions, which often come down to a kind of circular logic.

See, the normal way of determining sentience is to look at behaviors, evidence, patterns, and so forth, in order to determine if some kind of intelligence is at work.

Well, the whole point of the Abyss is that it espouses no patterns, is a mess of causality-defying madness, champions the strong individual while crushing all mercilessly into the same indistinguishable mud, and otherwise engages in much self-destructive, nihilistic practices.

An infinity of power and might is reduced to being barely a match for those evil lawyers from down the street, and yet, that is kind of the point. Everything goes to nothing, and from nothing, a teeming everything.

EDIT: I do like this discussion. And, to afro, thanks for straightening me out. My lore is more than rusty at this point, and I'm more poet than rules-wonk. That said, man, is there anything more fun to chat about than the nature of the universe, in all its intricate madness?

[danzibr]

Oh quite so. Not only is it sentient, it's been heavily implied that it fathered Pale Night's children.
How's that possible? Perhaps I just lack creativity...

[Phelix-Mu]

Now, normally this involves murdering whoever already had the spot, and that can take some doing, but wizards broken epic broken yada yada just hope whoever you're dislodging isn't you + bat wings. Figuratively speaking.

Permission to sig in part or in total. Might have to go in the extended sig, but the bolded part is pure gold.

[afroakuma]

And here I was about to post to your thread that you presence was requested.

Sometimes I just hear the mental ding!.


See, the normal way of determining sentience is to look at behaviors, evidence, patterns, and so forth, in order to determine if some kind of intelligence is at work.

If the Abyss had "normal" sentience it would be just disappointing.


EDIT: I do like this discussion. And, to afro, thanks for straightening me out. My lore is more than rusty at this point, and I'm more poet than rules-wonk.

It's what I do.


How's that possible? Perhaps I just lack creativity...

Honestly, I'd think Pale Night is the more difficult of the two. I'm kind of glad I lack that creativity.


Permission to sig in part or in total. Might have to go in the extended sig, but the bolded part is pure gold.

Go for it.

[Phelix-Mu]

If the Abyss had "normal" sentience it would be just disappointing.


Agreed. Plus, as one moves from sentience to omniscience/omnipresence, there is a kind of retrograde effect where higher forms of consciousness no longer correlate to more obvious behaviors. Subtlety and a sense of the eternal, infinite repetition of reality grant many powerful beings a very big lens through which to judge and weigh their actions, to the extent that usually any given mortal has negligible chance to understand the true scope of the motives and behaviors driving higher-level beings.

I think that most pedestrian views on the CE nature of the Abyss may miss the forest through the trees. In the Abyss, the point isn't that everything is CE, or in some way the epitome of chaos or evil. The point (and that's assuming there is "a point") is that no matter what forms "everything" might encompass, chaos and evil are the underlying truths that rise to the top of the pile of lies that constitutes reality. That angel over there might fit in just fine, maybe on some impossible quest to redeem some hapless soul wandering the Abyss. But the angel is just window-dressing, its principles of goodness just the clothes of someone not strong enough to forge their own way through the craphole of life. The whole thing is just a sick parody, the angel caught up in a greater scheme as the Abyss waits for good to devolve into native evil, order into primordial chaos.

The same is true of the wizard. The wizard believes this is his scheme, even as he signs over his soul for a bunch of Abyssal Heritor feats or similar power scheme. But, in the grand scope of things, the wizard is welcome fodder for the Abyss. The wizard plays around in the Abyss, but in the end, it's really the Abyss playing around inside the wizard.

[Xar Zarath]

The same is true of the wizard. The wizard believes this is his scheme, even as he signs over his soul for a bunch of Abyssal Heritor feats or similar power scheme. But, in the grand scope of things, the wizard is welcome fodder for the Abyss. The wizard plays around in the Abyss, but in the end, it's really the Abyss playing around inside the wizard.

That's a good analogy. But what if the epic wizard just mindrapes a procession of demons to claim the "throne"? The wizard would then rule the demon as it rules that portion of the Abyss.

[afroakuma]

That's a good analogy. But what if the epic wizard just mindrapes a procession of demons to claim the "throne"? The wizard would then rule the demon as it rules that portion of the Abyss.

A demon that can't stop itself from being ruled by mindrape doesn't deserve to rule an Abyssal layer. The Abyss wouldn't acknowledge it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This reminds me of the thread with the self-replicating bunny-zillas that rampaged through the Abyss, and an attendant and ridiculously in-depth look at whether colossal iron bunnies carrying tactical nukes could actually defeat an infinite number of demons.

That thread should be hard-linked on the list of important threads. That's how mind-breaking that discussion was. Props to skysaber, who was, as I recall, the OP.
Please tell me you have a link. I need this in my life.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm. As it turns out, I don't have a link...at least not yet!

EDIT: Bing bing bing! Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282178) we go. Seems like the title implies Hell, but I believe the conversation got on toward the Abyss as well.