[3.P]Which Concept? Also, on the Alignment of Dragons

[mistformsquirrl]

Thanks to the wonderful people on this forum, I now know I can build a PC dragon; and thanks to Paizo, I've got those rules on my PC now. Unfortunately, as my imagination is incredibly overactive*, I've spawned a great number of ideas for draconic player characters. The problem is... I'm unsure which concept to go with. One of said concepts also requires a little examination because I'm unsure if it's genuinely feasible without DM fiat.**

Basically I have three ideas -

1:

A Silver or Gold dragon wyrmling forced out into the world too early, having become seperated from it's parents.

I'm thinking said parents were assailed by an evil dragon or dragons, and in the confusion the wyrmling ran away - regardless of the result of the battle, the wyrmling can't find it's way home or otherwise can't return.

Ordinarily such a small dragon would be very vulnerable, but they manage to run into the adventuring party and (seeing the potential, not to mention hopefully not being utter jerks), they decide to try to help it out.

Alternatively, adventurers run across a slain silver/gold dragon and find a clutch of smashed eggs with a single egg having survived. Again seeing the potential of a dragon as an ally (but relatively ignorant of just how long they take to grow), they decide to hatch it. (It's even possible the dragon is still alive, but mortally wounded and hopes to ensure the survival of it's last egg by offering it to the adventuring group out of desperation.)

There's really a lot of ways this one can go; but the key element is you can't go home again. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouCantGoHomeAgain)

This is the most straightforward concept and probably the easiest to put into a campaign. It's a bit bland, but that makes sense considering it's not exactly commonplace for baby dragons to become adventurers. Basically, this is an excuse plot that makes it easy on the DM.

However it does mean that as a player, in order for such a character to be interesting, I have to work extra hard to develop their personality; while other characters have quirks from their background, this one is essentially a blank slate at the start and has to really grow into the group. Not a bad thing, but potentially a roleplaying challenge.

2.

The second idea requires an older dragon - meaning the game is probably starting toward the mid-levels. This is a very young/young dragon of pretty much any description that has essentially learned all the basic lessons it's parents have to teach it and is ready to explore the world a bit on it's own.

This dragon is substantially more arrogant than the wyrmling (it's a dragon raised by dragons... it has good reason to be); and isn't above talking in draconic*** even when it knows no one can understand it.

I'm kind of thinking of this concept as the dragon equivalent of a know-it-all/rebellious teenager basically. Maybe the dragon falls in with the adventurers specifically to hack off it's parents Or maybe it's parents really are jerks and the young dragon decided it just needed to get away from the lair. (Good alignment doesn't mean good parents after all - Eugene Greenhilt is a pretty excellent example of that.)

The end result is a brash young dragon with a chip on it's wing who, nevertheless, can prove to be a great ally. As it matures it may also begin to take a more serious interest in lore and knowledge - rather than just trying to show people up with it's intelligence.

Rulewise I'm thinking this dragon might be more toward the spellcaster side of things comparative to the wyrmling above.

I like this concept a fair bit, but obviously it requires a higher level party to work with, since the dragon is going to be the equivalent of 10-15th level most probably, and integrating with a higher level party can be difficult as they may already have a group dynamic established. So there's that; and that makes it harder on the DM.

3.

This is the concept where I need help on the alignment.

The idea is chromatic dragon wyrmling - either found as an egg or while very much a newborn - who's parents' lair is raided, and the parent chromatic dragon(s) slain. The wyrmling is too young and helpless (or still unhatched) to even attempt to fight back against the invader, and so it's captured.

There are several routes that things could take at this point - the egg couuld then be gifted to the PCs by a metallic dragon who took part in the raid, perhaps as an experiment (If a chromatic dragon is raised by good people, will it be good too?), or the wyrmling could have been imprisoned but released into the PC's custody for one reason or another.

The essential idea here is a chromatic dragon that has wound up in good-aligned company, struggling against it's tendency toward mayhem to emulate those good people.

Here's the thing: In 3.5e Chromatic dragons are Always Evil as I recall... that, unless I miss my guess, essentially dooms the poor wyrmling to eventually become a monster. Is that the way it has to be essentially (outside of DM fiat?) Or is there some leeway there?

I like the idea of this little dragon struggling between nature and nurture - trying very hard to be good, but sometimes doing really bad things for reasons it doesn't quite comprehend. Is that actually possible though?

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Sorry for the tremendous wall of words; I'm usually more decisive about my characters than this, but then I've never tried to build a dragon before.

Suggestions, ideas, thoughts, all welcome!

*Seriously, there's a reason I'm constantly asking questions here - I'm constantly getting ideas!

**Not that I'm opposed to asking for a DM ruling if they're willing; but as a player I don't want to put too much pressure on the DM, especially when asking to bring a dragon to the game.

***I'm thinking for this, I might even borrow Skyrim's dragon language.

[Callin]

Numbers 1 and 3 appeal to me more. Number 2 could deviate into a haughty slave driver who thinks the lesser beings should serve or al least do what he says without much question or grumbling.

1 sounds like a great plot hook and can be fun all around the table and gives the character an actual real life goal.

3 can be fu. As he tries to find himself qnd be who and what he wants to be and can go against the social norm or dive head first into all of what a dragon is supposed to be and then he may feel bad and repent and try to be good again.

Lots of roleplay in both

[Dayaz]

I like number 3 the most. Dragons do usually have an 'always' tag on alignment, but most dms in my experience will waive it for plot fluff

[mistformsquirrl]

Numbers 1 and 3 appeal to me more. Number 2 could deviate into a haughty slave driver who thinks the lesser beings should serve or al least do what he says without much question or grumbling.

1 sounds like a great plot hook and can be fun all around the table and gives the character an actual real life goal.

3 can be fu. As he tries to find himself qnd be who and what he wants to be and can go against the social norm or dive head first into all of what a dragon is supposed to be and then he may feel bad and repent and try to be good again.

Lots of roleplay in both

That's a fair point about 2 that I hadn't really considered.

@Dayaz - Yeah, I guess if I go that route I'll just have to hope.

[Particle_Man]

Even a wyrmling gold/silver dragon can take humanoid form right? That could be very useful.

[(Un)Inspired]

Have you thought about just playing as an evil dragon? My favorite character to play was a young red dragon that went around with a mostly good adventuring party. Just because you're evil doesn't mean you're stupid or out of control. Adventuring is the fastest path to power and adventuring in a group is the fastest way to stay alive.

If I have to save a couple villages to get enough power to one day rule with an iron fist so be it. All for the greater evil right?

[DarkSonic1337]

"Always" X alignment in D&D doesn't actually mean 100%. It means that anyone who ISN'T that alignment is a VERY RARE exception.

[Xervous]

"Always" X alignment in D&D doesn't actually mean 100%. It means that anyone who ISN'T that alignment is a VERY RARE exception.

And the rule for adventurers are that they are the exception to most rules...

[Phelix-Mu]

Typically, only creatures with the (Evil) subtype are seen as irredeemable. Go with 3 and direct the DM to the rules in BoED about redemption. As a wyrmling dragon that had never really done anything evil (unless maybe as a matter of survival during the raid), the redemption of the dragon would probably be much easier than that of the kinds of villains that are normally thought of as targets.

A few notes if you head in that direction:

- Make sure not to abandon all of the instinctive behavioral traits of whatever type of dragon you play. Though the dragon may have learned to be virtuous (or at least to not deviate instantly toward doing as it pleases), it shouldn't be brainwashed, and being good might not always come naturally. This inner conflict can obviously lead to all manner of fun personality quirks. Perhaps the dragon, proud as all dragons are, often speaks out of turn, impulsively suggesting evil options, cursing his/her foes, and otherwise prone to little bursts of outrage. But, a moment later, the dragon realizes it shouldn't act that way, and corrects itself, while simultaneously not admitting that it acted incorrectly.

"By all the scales of Io, I shall hunt down your children and suck the marrow from their bones...*cough*...is what I would say if I weren't such a kind and considerate opponent."

Now that could be interesting. Don't have the dragon be fully formed as a paragon of whatever alignment it was taught. A work in progress is much more interesting, imho.

- Remember that redemption of children can't really work the same way as adults. The wyrmling is evil by nature, not by its actions, and this kind of impulse to be evil is retrained differently than the ingrained habits of a mature and responsible wrongdoer. A good way to model this is have the wyrmling imprint on a parent figure (or group of figures, maybe a church or its caretakers). That figure doesn't have to be part of the campaign, but the dragon should think of them often, in a "What would [insert name] do?"-kind of way.

[mistformsquirrl]

Have you thought about just playing as an evil dragon? My favorite character to play was a young red dragon that went around with a mostly good adventuring party. Just because you're evil doesn't mean you're stupid or out of control. Adventuring is the fastest path to power and adventuring in a group is the fastest way to stay alive.

If I have to save a couple villages to get enough power to one day rule with an iron fist so be it. All for the greater evil right?

I just can't play evil to save my life hehe, it bothers me on a fundamental level really. (Heck, I can't even play neutral really >.<) It's just a quirk of mine.

@DarkSonic1337 and Xervous - Good points, both of you.

@Phelix-Mu - You've kinda read my mind on what that concept would be like in play, yeah. I think I'm convinced, #3 is what I'll almost certainly go with. < ._.> I like the idea quite a bit.

[Erik Vale]

1: You can't really go with one. I'd assume PF would have similar rules to DnD with dragon hatching, which is 6 months that's work intensive for a okay shot at a non-dragon hatching a dragon. There's a reason dragons enslave kobolds to do it. [That, and a ravenous baby dragon attacking a few kobolds isn't really a problem, attacking a few adventurers...]
By the end of it, the adventurers would have plenty of levels on you, you would be regulated to team mascot.

2: If it happens in the middle of the campaign it may not work, start of the campaign it should be fine.

3: I think always evil means 99.9%. Adventurers are the .1%
Your fine on that front.

The more problematic front is the whole raised by adventurers, being stolen from your parents, and [assuming pf keeps dnd fluff close as possible] racial memory. This child [which can often be as smart or smarter than most adults, and as learned due to racial memory] has no real-reason to 'forgive and forget'. At most it's bidding it's time.

So, I'd say go with two. Also, plenty of dragons leave their young to the wild, so you could do almost the same thing as a wyrmling.
Of course, those dragons tend to evil, but again, random chance produced an adventurer it sure as heck can produce a dragon that learns towards good, probably due to curiosity or just trying to intergrate... I'm now imagining Belkar as a dragon, except less exagerated.


Edit: I'd personally favour more a mixture of Mu's advice for 3 and a young dragon of the left for self kind with two.

[Corlindale]

3. does sound like the coolest one, with a lot of RP potential.

I actually have a similar concept going with my current Dragon Disciple. He is Chaotic Good but has a red dragon bloodline. So he constantly has to fight off his darker instincts and impulses, and currently views his dragon blood and his gradual transformation into a "monster" as a horrible curse. So it can work pretty well if you're going for an antihero feel.