Bound to cause problems: Races, Binders, and their interractions

[Xuldarinar]

Vestiges answer the call of binders, for they wish to taste reality. Though most races, this is not a problem, but through some I am left to wonder. Would vestiges likely still answer the call for creatures a bit more divorced from life? By this, I mean primarily constructs and the undead. Is what the vestige can taste through them, still enough to reasonably assume they can bind vestiges with equal ease? What of aberrations, creatures that are not truly of reality and may have a very distorted view in relation to you and I?

On a slightly different note, how would the signs manifest differently on creatures such as constructs or things that the sign doesn't directly apply to them? For instance, what about Ageres's sign on a creature that lacks a mouth, or Acererak's sign for a creature lacking in teeth?

[Gemini476]

Vestiges don't want to experience life, per se, they want to experience reality. If that experience is through an undead, well, beggars can't be choosers.

They're stuck in a very strange place and long for every chance to experience reality.


No, don't ask me how this works with Binding while in the Far Realm.

[Psyren]

The way I read it is - if you have enough existence to be considered "a creature" then that's still more interaction with reality than a vestige gets.

The fluff also says they need a soul to inhabit/share, so the question (for things like Warforged and Necropolitans) is whether they have a soul or not. They seem to have enough of one for other purposes so they would here too.

The signs are a bit trickier because they are not illusions. I'd say they do modify the creature's form as necessary to make them visible. So Acererak might give a Warforged a mouth full of teeth, one of them being a gem.

[Xuldarinar]

Thats reasonable to assume. Are there any creatures we definitely know lack a soul? Any playable?

Suddenly I'm trying to imagine what a warforged binder would look like with Zceryll bound, given that in addition to the sign (mirror eyes), they would gain the Pseudonatural template.

[Psyren]

Thats reasonable to assume. Are there any creatures we definitely know lack a soul? Any playable?

None playable as far as I can tell. Anything nonsapient typically gets slapped with LA -.


Suddenly I'm trying to imagine what a warforged binder would look like with Zceryll bound, given that in addition to the sign (mirror eyes), they would gain the Pseudonatural template.

Squiddy? :smalltongue:

[peacenlove]

Incorporeals would be funny to imagine with binder.
They are souls so does that make the bind somehow visible? Only with true seeing?
Manifested signs would also raise some questions. Are the horns/mouths/etc. corporeal or not?

[Zweisteine]

The fluff also says they need a soul to inhabit/share, so the question (for things like Warforged and Necropolitans) is whether they have a soul or not. They seem to have enough of one for other purposes so they would here too.
Well, Warforged explicitly have souls, so that shouldn't be an issue. I've always interpreted Necropolitans as something like "ritual killed my body without ripping out my soul." Skeletons or Zombies have no soul, but Necropolitans still do; that's why they're playable.


Thats reasonable to assume. Are there any creatures we definitely know lack a soul? Any playable?
No playable creatures are soulless, unless Aberrations are. That's a good question, actually... even if aberrations are ensouled, are their souls compatable with Vestiges?

Here's my question: Outsiders and Elementals have souls, but their "soul and body form one unit." So if a bound vestige connects to the soul, and even leaks over to have a pysical effect of the body, what would it do to creature whose body is its soul? (or to a ghost, who is a bodiless soul?)

I imagine there would be more drastic physical changes, and maybe personality changes as well. They might also have a hard time un-binding the vestige...

(i.e. Binding Paimon would make an outsider grow limb-blades, etc.)

[Starbuck_II]

Here's my question: Outsiders and Elementals have souls, but their "soul and body form one unit." So if a bound vestige connects to the soul, and even leaks over to have a pysical effect of the body, what would it do to creature whose body is its soul? (or to a ghost, who is a bodiless soul?)

I imagine there would be more drastic physical changes, and maybe personality changes as well. They might also have a hard time un-binding the vestige...

(i.e. Binding Paimon would make an outsider grow limb-blades, etc.)

That is a good question. My Lumi is currently binding Paimon.

[Xuldarinar]

No playable creatures are soulless, unless Aberrations are. That's a good question, actually... even if aberrations are ensouled, are their souls compatable with Vestiges?

Here's my question: Outsiders and Elementals have souls, but their "soul and body form one unit." So if a bound vestige connects to the soul, and even leaks over to have a pysical effect of the body, what would it do to creature whose body is its soul? (or to a ghost, who is a bodiless soul?)

I imagine there would be more drastic physical changes, and maybe personality changes as well. They might also have a hard time un-binding the vestige...

(i.e. Binding Paimon would make an outsider grow limb-blades, etc.)

Those are some good questions. Its hard to say for certain. There is no example to follow here so really, who can say? I imagine they (individuals with body and soul being one) could have more profound signs, but perhaps nothing that would be mechanically different.

That does remind me. I wish one could make a playable Deadly Dancer Binder. But, all I can think of is if one were to use Wildshape to become one, but without a PrC to advance binding and wild shape, it would be difficult to work with (without gestalt). Though, that does make me think.. Perhaps a druid variant that swaps spellcasting for soul binding?

[Silverbit]

Are any gods associated with pact magic? If so, what would happen if one of the, bound something?


a druid variant that swaps spellcasting for soul binding?

I really want to play ths now...

[Xuldarinar]

Are any gods associated with pact magic? If so, what would happen if one of the, bound something?

Tenebrous, though he is a vestige.

[BornValyrian]

Tenebrous, though he is a vestige.

For deity vestiges, Amon kiinda counts.

[Gemini476]

Are any gods associated with pact magic? If so, what would happen if one of the, bound something?



I really want to play ths now...

Most of the gods that I know are asssociated with Pact Magic are associated because they are Vestiges. They're also ex-gods, since they're pretty dead-but-not.
Primus is a good example, as is Tenebrous. Amon is also one, but he isn't preexisting to my knowledge.

There are also gods that are associated with various Vestiges, mostly because they were associated with the Vestige before it became a Vestige. Like Savnok with Hextor and Heironeous, or Acererak with Orcus.


...Actually, reading through Tome of Magic again there's some good examples there. In the introduction to Pact Magic there's a section on "Lesser Pact Magic", which includes this:

VOWS TO DEITIES
By pledging to serve a deity, a cleric puts his soul into the
hands of a greater power. If he thereafter falters in his duty,
he can lose his wondrous powers. Similarly, the cause of
a paladin requires a constant heart. The slightest doubt or
hesitation can lead to disaster, rendering the paladin unable
to continue her mission without a deity’s consent.
So I guess technically all deities are associated with Pact Magic? They just don't really do much with binding and vestiges.

I guess you also have the Deadly Dancers that revere Paimon as a deity, but he was never a god, they don't receive power from him, and none of them are binders. They're very mysterious.

[Psyren]

Well, Warforged explicitly have souls, so that shouldn't be an issue. I've always interpreted Necropolitans as something like "ritual killed my body without ripping out my soul." Skeletons or Zombies have no soul, but Necropolitans still do; that's why they're playable.

Indeed, this was my take as well.



No playable creatures are soulless, unless Aberrations are. That's a good question, actually... even if aberrations are ensouled, are their souls compatable with Vestiges?

Aberrations can be magic jarred, soul trapped, soulsighted etc. just fine, so I'd say yes. Hell, they can even be raised and resurrected - and much more easily than creatures like Outsiders and Elementals even. What makes an aberration different are their body and mind, not their soul.



Here's my question: Outsiders and Elementals have souls, but their "soul and body form one unit." So if a bound vestige connects to the soul, and even leaks over to have a pysical effect of the body, what would it do to creature whose body is its soul? (or to a ghost, who is a bodiless soul?)

Honestly I wouldn't do anything here other than make the signs a bit more pronounced, if that.


Perhaps a druid variant that swaps spellcasting for soul binding?

How about most of their wild shape + some of their spellcasting? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/radiance-house---druid-archetypes/pactsworn-pagan)


Tenebrous, though he is a vestige.

Also Amon - aka Amaunator, Lathander's predecessor.

If the vestiges have a leader, it would probably be Orthos as well.

[Emperor Tippy]

Are any gods associated with pact magic?

Only in the "kill it with fire" way.

Divine powers of all stripes hate binding and vestiges in all of their forms with a passion. As in fluff wise a cleric that binds a vestige looses his spellcasting and a Paladin who binds a vestige falls. As in good and evil deities and churches are willing to work together to eradicate binding in all its forms.

Lawful, chaotic, good, or evil; it doesn't matter. No divine power, at all, is supportive of binding or vestiges in any way per the ToM fluff.

[Urpriest]

Well, Warforged explicitly have souls, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Where is your source for this? They're explicitly living, yes, but it's enormously controversial in-setting whether or not they actually have souls.

[Psyren]

Where is your source for this? They're explicitly living, yes, but it's enormously controversial in-setting whether or not they actually have souls.

Let's forestall a 50-page debate and just say that, if it has something that can be raised/soul-trapped, it has enough "animus" to be attractive to a vestige. After all, no matter how dull a warforged or necropolitan's stunted senses have to be, they are nonetheless likely superior to anything an unbound vestige has.


Only in the "kill it with fire" way.

*snip*

The problem here is that multiclass Clerics/Paladins don't lose their powers from picking up pact magic unless you are using the Orthodoxy/Heterodoxy sidebar on ToM 14; while falling is the consequence for many churches, some deities are in fact silent on the issue.

"Clerics and Paladins need not abandon their principles to be friendly with binders or even to take up pact magic. Perhaps the character maintains all her powers, but they now stem from devotion to her ideals like those of any cleric not devoted to a specific deity."

"Perhaps the main wing of her church disavows her, but other heterodox factions exist. In this situation, the deity does not offer followers a clear opinion about binders and pact magic, but rather allows them to wrestle with the topic on their own."

So, I wouldn't say "only" necessarily.

[Red Fel]

Only in the "kill it with fire" way.

Divine powers of all stripes hate binding and vestiges in all of their forms with a passion. As in fluff wise a cleric that binds a vestige looses his spellcasting and a Paladin who binds a vestige falls. As in good and evil deities and churches are willing to work together to eradicate binding in all its forms.

Lawful, chaotic, good, or evil; it doesn't matter. No divine power, at all, is supportive of binding or vestiges in any way per the ToM fluff.

This. The same way the gods are thoroughly against the Far Realm, representing a cosmos beyond their own intruding on their territory, the gods are terribly anti-Vestige. Many Vestiges got that way specifically because they cheesed off the wrong deity. Vestiges are things that should not be, representing an existence that defies all physical laws. The gods tend to be in favor of physical laws; they keep the physical universe in place. Even the Chaotic deities like physical laws, inasmuch as they get to bend them. The fact that Vestiges exist at all is practically a slap in the face to the beings who decide what the word "exist" means.

The various religions, as Psy points out, may or may not take issue with their followers doing this stuff, and the gods may not take a "kill on sight" position, but at the very least, none of them like it.

So, no. No canonical non-Vestige deities are associated with Pact Magic.

[Urpriest]

Let's forestall a 50-page debate and just say that, if it has something that can be raised/soul-trapped, it has enough "animus" to be attractive to a vestige. After all, no matter how dull a warforged or necropolitan's stunted senses have to be, they are nonetheless likely superior to anything an unbound vestige has.

Sure, I agree.

I was just curious. I had the impression that Warfored Souls were very much "shrug of god" territory.

[Psyren]

Sure, I agree.

I was just curious. I had the impression that Warfored Souls were very much "shrug of god" territory.

Indeed, they are one of the setting mysteries for individual DMs to use as plot hooks. If they do have souls, where do they come from? Were the Creation Forges capable of creating souls, or are the total number of souls finite? How do the forges even work? What implications does this have for the gods/afterlife/setting as a whole?

And if they don't have souls, why can they be raised? Where do they go when they die? If Warforged receive no reward/punishment after life, what impact would that have on their outlook if it became widely known? Etc.

That last question is particularly relevant in Eberron, whose afterlife is kind of a crappy place.

[123456789blaaa]

None playable as far as I can tell. Anything nonsapient typically gets slapped with LA -.

There might be a rule I'm missing here but I think there is a RAW-legal way. See the sidebar on page 75 of savage species makes no sense to me. Here are the relevant parts of it:

"If an undead spawn's creator is destroyed, the spawn is no longer controlled by that creature. If the freed spawn was a player character when alive, it can now adventure like a character with an ECL equivalent to the creator's. For instance, a freed ghoul spawn has an ECL of 5, and a freed shadow spawn's ECL is 10...

... A freed spawn can gain experience points through adventuring, adding them to the XP total the character had when alive. When it becomes eligible to advance a level, it can add class levels as normal or pursue the emancipated spawn prestige class..."

A mohrg has an ECL of 20 according to page 32 of Libris Mortis. They can spawn zombies (which are mindless). According to he text of the Magic Jar spell "Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls".

So you'd suck horribly but you could technically play a soulless character.


Only in the "kill it with fire" way.

Divine powers of all stripes hate binding and vestiges in all of their forms with a passion. As in fluff wise a cleric that binds a vestige looses his spellcasting and a Paladin who binds a vestige falls. As in good and evil deities and churches are willing to work together to eradicate binding in all its forms.

Lawful, chaotic, good, or evil; it doesn't matter. No divine power, at all, is supportive of binding or vestiges in any way per the ToM fluff.

ToM kind of partially messed up the fluff for the paladins. Page 43 of the PHB: "Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity—devotion to righteousness is enough.".

[Devils_Advocate]

Like most philosophical questions, whether warforged have souls is purely a matter of semantics. They have things that operate like most mortal souls in some regards but not others. Are these things "souls"? I vote yes on the grounds that it's unclear what else to call them. But, yeah, that's not explicitly the case to my knowledge, so I too would be interested in a source for that claim.


If they do have souls, where do they come from?
In Eberron, is this any more of a mystery for warforged than it is for, say, humans? Similarly, the ultimate fate of mortal souls in general is unknown, I think.

Gods in Eberron could be associated with pact magic by mortals, which is the only clear way in which they're associated with anything. Unlike the deities of other campaign settings, Eberron's gods are unlikely to personally voice any dislike of vestiges, being of dubious existence themselves.

[Psyren]

There might be a rule I'm missing here but I think there is a RAW-legal way. See the sidebar on page 75 of savage species makes no sense to me. Here are the relevant parts of it:

"If an undead spawn's creator is destroyed, the spawn is no longer controlled by that creature. If the freed spawn was a player character when alive, it can now adventure like a character with an ECL equivalent to the creator's. For instance, a freed ghoul spawn has an ECL of 5, and a freed shadow spawn's ECL is 10...

... A freed spawn can gain experience points through adventuring, adding them to the XP total the character had when alive. When it becomes eligible to advance a level, it can add class levels as normal or pursue the emancipated spawn prestige class..."

A mohrg has an ECL of 20 according to page 32 of Libris Mortis. They can spawn zombies (which are mindless). According to he text of the Magic Jar spell "Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls".

So you'd suck horribly but you could technically play a soulless character.

Those are all intelligent undead you cited, which do explicitly have souls (LM 7). It might not always be the soul that was originally in that body, but it is a soul nonetheless.



ToM kind of partially messed up the fluff for the paladins. Page 43 of the PHB: "Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity—devotion to righteousness is enough.".

ToM didn't make any mistakes - see my quotes above.



In Eberron, is this any more of a mystery for warforged than it is for, say, humans?

In a way it could be, because Warforged can (or at least could, during the war) be mass-produced. No gestation period etc.

[Devils_Advocate]

What additional questions does that raise?

Hmm, according to Races of Eberron, a warforged can understand its creator's language as soon as it first awakens, but otherwise "has no knowledge of the world". Man, what? What does their initial vocabulary consist of if they don't know of any of the things words refer to? Does a warforged start with every concept that its creator has a word for? Does its early education consist of being told "words generally refer to real things, but there are exceptions"? Because if I had a fresh warforged on hand, that's the first thing I'd tell it. BAM, suddenly it knows that water, horses, armies, magic, etc. are probably things that exist.

Yeah, I'd sooner replace that with "They're created knowing nothing whatsoever, but learn super fast initially, language included." I'm not at all confident that I could properly grasp the implications of this particular bit of lore. And I rather doubt that the author really thought this though, to be honest.

So, yeah, headcanon: warforged come out of the forge knowing jack diddly.

[Urpriest]

ToM didn't make any mistakes - see my quotes above.


You...may want to qualify that statement. :smalltongue:

The Ice Cream!

[Xuldarinar]

You...may want to qualify that statement. :smalltongue:

The Ice Cream!

I wish i could disagree with you. Its a wonderful book, by far my favorite D&D book. But… It has its fair share of problems. Its flavor is sound, some of the best I've seen, but some of the mechanics suffer from a lack of proper playtesting, especially the last 3rd of the book.

[Psyren]

You...may want to qualify that statement. :smalltongue:

The Ice Cream!

Heh, yeah, should've refined that a little :smalltongue:


What additional questions does that raise?

Hmm, according to Races of Eberron, a warforged can understand its creator's language as soon as it first awakens, but otherwise "has no knowledge of the world". Man, what? What does their initial vocabulary consist of if they don't know of any of the things words refer to? Does a warforged start with every concept that its creator has a word for? Does its early education consist of being told "words generally refer to real things, but there are exceptions"? Because if I had a fresh warforged on hand, that's the first thing I'd tell it. BAM, suddenly it knows that water, horses, armies, magic, etc. are probably things that exist.

Yeah, I'd sooner replace that with "They're created knowing nothing whatsoever, but learn super fast initially, language included." I'm not at all confident that I could properly grasp the implications of this particular bit of lore. And I rather doubt that the author really thought this though, to be honest.

So, yeah, headcanon: warforged come out of the forge knowing jack diddly.

I see it like Grunt's tank in Mass Effect. He described it as being shown images from a child's picture book - look at this picture, here is the word for it, remember it. No context or even reason to care.

And of course, the tank and forge served the same purpose - shock troops.

[123456789blaaa]

Those are all intelligent undead you cited, which do explicitly have souls (LM 7). It might not always be the soul that was originally in that body, but it is a soul nonetheless.

While the specific examples given in the quote are intelligent undead, this doesn't change the rule in the quote that freed undead spawn gain the ECL of their creators. Zombies can be undead spawn of Mohrgs (which have an ECL of 20).


ToM didn't make any mistakes - see my quotes above.


I meant the references in the book to the Paladin gaining powers from their diety at all. Not losing their powers from doing stuff with binding.


Similarly, the cause of a paladin requires a constant heart. The slightest doubt or hesitation can lead to disaster, rendering the paladin unable to continue her mission without a deity’s consent.


Balam’s influence causes you to distrust clerics, paladins, and other devotees of deities.

Though now that I look through the book again I can`t find any more references outside the sidebar. Perhaps “messed up”`was too strong a choice of words.

[Psyren]

While the specific examples given in the quote are intelligent undead, this doesn't change the rule in the quote that freed undead spawn gain the ECL of their creators. Zombies can be undead spawn of Mohrgs (which have an ECL of 20).

Oh I understand you now. That rule is there for players that got zombiefied, shadowed etc.

Yeah, whether it is the PC's old soul that got trapped in the new form, or simply something new that slipped in from Beyond when the PC was killed and the spawn created, then yeah I agree, it's pretty clear there's a soul there either way. Though that doesn't really count as "playable LA -" in my opinion - you aren't starting as that race outright, those rules only get invoked if you start as something else and are then killed by something that creates spawn. In similar fashion, you can True Mind Switch or even Reincarnate into something that isn't meant to be played by a PC; that doesn't change the fact that the creature itself is normally LA -.




I meant the references in the book to the Paladin gaining powers from their diety at all. Not losing their powers from doing stuff with binding.

The sidebar specifically relates the default case only to those deities that actively hate binding. In the core setting, this would likely only be those of the Seropaenean deities - Heironeus, St. Cuthbert, Vecna (if he had paladins, anyway) and Wee Jas. So only those Paladins would stand to lose by associating with binders, assuming the Hetero/Ortho variants aren't in play instead.

Paladins of other deities, or of a cause/ideal, face no consequences at all. So again, ToM isn't wrong - it was limiting its scope specifically to those paladins that do worship deities, and then only the ones who server pact-haters.