DMing with a party of 10

[Dblackmail]

Hey everyone, this is my first time posting literally anything.... But I have a problem I need help with regarding my party in DnD 3.5

Firstly, i'm still kind of new to dming and I know having 10 players is a terrible idea. 2 ppl in the party are lvl 12, 3 are lvl 11, and the rest are lvl 10. to make matters worse 9 of the 10 are melee dps tanks and the only caster is a warmage....

In my latest mission I made a monster with 36 AC that hit like a truck but was very slow and the party was supposed to run from it but ended up attacking it because they always do. After one player attacked it and didn't break ac some of the players said they felt cheated because they couldn't kill it themselves. The next turn one player managed to kill it instantly, just before another player could do the same.

My question to you all is this: how can you manage a party of 10? What kind of stats are fair for the monsters? And as a side note should players be allowed to brake through walls to get past locked doors?

[GybeMark]

A recent gaming group I played-with/part-time-DMed-with had 9 players + DM. They were fairly low level, and fairly diverse skill set. One thing which the other DM and I found worked was traps/monster-with-special-abilities/etc that cost the players a round... sticky webs, etc. By alternating which players were affected, some players could "fight" while others were "making their saves to resume playing". The other thing I'd recommend is to be draconian in keeping the pace of play moving... you don't want "45-minute rounds".

As for breaking doors, it's amazing how many doors are enchanted with ancient magics, the likes of which the party has never seen :smallsmile:

I've been in the "no players, you're supposed to RUN" scenario before, and the PCs had the same reaction. I've since made all of my chase scenes either "there goes the thief, catch him!" or "run from the (fog/magical-darkness/forest-fire/other-thing-you-can't-hit-or-dispell)"

hope this helps, and good luck to you and your campaign!

[VeggieWombat]

Yeah, bad idea. Terrible idea. Seriously, find a way to split them. 10 isn't manageable, and isn't fun for anyone, because speaking/playing 10mn in a 4h session sucks. "You HAVE to get these 2 things that are 500km away in opposite directions in 2 weeks" Or half of them are trapped in a dream, the rest looking for a way to awake them. Or half-hostages, forced to do something for a Big Baddie, and the rest is looking for them/attempting a rescue.

Also balancing an encouter is just too hard.

This being said : they're a one trick pony (DPS), hugely proficient at what they're doing. So you either : play along, and cheat monsters to be able to take the pounding (tons of HP, Damage Reduction), or use tactics which will screw them hard. Flying, etherealness, hit and run (Ghosts with Flyby attack ~~ ), saves vs Will (Murderous commands), skills checks (climb the mountain, get bull-rushed by were-mountain-goats !), stealth, traps, whatever. Just don't try to see who hit the harder.

Last advice : divide the group ^^

[the_david]

1 Split the group. This group is probably too big to handle, especially if you're playing 3.5.
2 Keep them on the same level. You can just forget about XP and level them up whenever it feels right, or you could just award them all the same amount, even if they didn't make it to the session.
3. Keep the Challenge Rating system in mind. No more than partylevel + 4. (Your party seems to be PL13.5) Though if you insist on keeping a party of 10, be sure to remember the action economy. You'll need more actions to challenge the group.
4. Players should never be allowed to break through walls. Their characters, maybe. It depends, x hp per inch, hardness y. That's the stuff you shouldn't forget. Doors tend to break down faster though... You could also throw a wandering monster at the group when they try to do that, or every monster in the dungeon.

[Zirconia]

I'm in a D&D 4.0 group that grew to 8, and the DM is alternating sessions with subgroups of 4, with plans for occasional sessions where we regroup before getting split up again. Much more manageable, especially since we have some new players who don't know the system very well. In addition, having such a large group means that to challenge them you should probably be using a lot of foes, like double normal which assumes a group of 4-5, which slows YOUR part of the round down as well.

The most recent split was when we rescued a (small) dragon in a dungeon, it could carry 4 of us at a time, off it went with the first 4 then there was a cave-in. Four stuck in the dungeon to find their way out, four outside going off and doing something else.

A big risk here is people getting bored and having side conversations, etc., especially if you try to do any roleplaying stuff, shopping, etc. because you are the conduit through which all communications must pass.

The other best option I can suggest is see if one of them is willing to act as co-DM rather than play, and delegate running combats to them to speed things up.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Split it into two groups of five players.

For an encounter that they should run from, foreshadow it a bit. Have them meet a local tough guy who's not afraid of anything earlier, then when they encounter the monster they see him running from it.

If you're not going to split up the group, use monsters with a lot of crowd controls. The encounters I recommended in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300111#7) would be fitting, but you'll need to scale them up a bit for the party level/size.

For a big party of hard-hitters, you could throw them into a hive of Tucker's Kobolds. You can find some tips on how to run them here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272735#11), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288440#12), and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246708#3) (much of that is the same advice repeated). It doesn't matter how hard they hit, because kobolds die in one swing anyway. Unavoidable damage like rat swarms and flaming oil and falling down will whittle them down, and with their lack of spellcasters they'll run out of healing quickly. Just be sure every kobold tunnel has a 'drain' chute in case of flooding, which would also serve to funnel away any Cloudkill or similar that's sent their way. Kobolds have slight build (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) so they can be counted as Tiny when squeezing, so they could squeeze through a tunnel built for a Diminutive size creature. There's no chance the PCs would be able to chase them to their actual lair, so they'll have to fight their way through the trap-strewn corridors that lead to the lair of whatever they're actually seeking.

[Psyren]

One big monster almost never works. Either it is so strong that it flattens the group, or they steamroll it before it gets 2 rounds of actions out. If you must have One Big Thing, give it minions - broodlings, cultists worshipping it, parasites/scavengers, hell have some tear through the veil of reality due to its evil aura if you have to, but do not leave it alone.

Please read this. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg) It's for PF primarily but works just fine for 3.5 too.

[Captnq]

So you want to run for 10 people.

Welcome to DM BOOT CAMP.

Basically, first of all you need to realize some things:
1)The d20 system expanded way beyond anything anyone was expecting. If you include the 3rd party stuff, you can do just about anything. Want to play a super hero? They got that. Want to play a cat? They got that too. Even if you stick with the stuff that was “official D&D”, whatever that might be, you’ve got close to a hundred books and supplements. Even if you discard everything but the player’s handbook, you got a few hundred pages to read.

Then, if you want some background, depending on your campaign setting, you might have a few dozen books to read. There are 22 Eberron books alone. 73 Forgotten Realms books. If you got an old timer like myself, who uses 1st and 2nd edition Forgotten Realms material for the setting, you can add another 143 books. Let’s not even go into the web enhancements.

This is not a closed circuit of rules like Checkers. This is the most massive rule set ever. Here there be Dragons.

2) The game is so simple as to defy explanation.

Here's the game from a DM's point of view.:
If something would automatically fail, it fails.
If something would automatically succeed, it succeeds
If there is a slight chance of failure, Roll 1d20. On a 1 it fails.
If there is a slight chance of success, Roll 1d20. On a 20 it succeeds.
If it lands somewhere between 10% success to 90% success, figure out what chance it has to succeed, pick a number 2 to 19, roll the bones and get your number or higher.

All those other dice? 95% of the time you can just pick the averages. Adjust them slightly to give the illusion of randomness, but really, the other dice don't matter 95% of the time. The average result is usually good enough.

3) A DM has to create the ILLUSION that he's impartial and fair. That he's playing by the rules, but the thing is, the players have no way to figure that out. So we have Hundreds of rulebooks, and we look at them. And we make faces. And we pay attension to the players who has memorized this section of the rule book. But in the end, if the players believe in you, all you need is one d20 and a whole lot a chutzpah

What does this have to do with your problem? TIME MANAGEMENT.

You need to know the nature of the game. It's TRUE nature. You need to strip away everything that is holding you back. Rules will only slow you down. Yes, read those rules. Try to follow the rules, but if figuring out the rules gets in the way, if they slow you down, if they take more then 60 seconds to figure out, SCREW IT.

Estimate in your head the chance of success
Write down your estimation.
If your estimation comes up again, reuse it.
If there are variables, adjust it.

Look at each combat as an entire new universe. If they only have a chance of hitting the target on a 36 AC, fine. Jot that down. Didn't figure out exactly what his touch attack, or flatfoot is? Eyeball it IF IT COMES UP IN PLAY.

Then, once you've worked out the fine art of Subjective Dungeon Mastering and Relative Difficulty Calculation (SDMARD), all else will fall away. Combat will speed up on your end.

Speed it up on the players end by a few techniques:

1) Roll initative once. Make everyone move to sit in order of initative. Then the fastest guy rolls for the group. Either the party goes first, or the NPCs do. Is it RAW? No. But you are running for 10 people, they need to suck it.

2) Tell the players they have the whole time everyone else is going to come up with something. Combat is now rapid fire. When you point at someone, they go. If they go, "Ummm..." Hold up your hand and start taking down fingers. 5,4,3,2,1... "Ennnht" The buzzer sounds, "You lost your action." Point to the next person. Boom! Boom! Boom! Boom! People will learn to start talking and explaining. Don't cut people off, just don't allow book referencing, power confirming, or what have you. They don't know what a fireball does? Well, the wizard doesn't have his spell componant ready.

3) Encourage people to make combat sheets. Sheets for nothing but combat. When it's time for combat, sheets at the ready! Soon as you lose your actions a few times, you'll figure out how to move faster.

4) Be just as hard on the NPCs. Boom Boom Boom Boom. Give yourself some "wiggle" room. Hey, this is a BBEG, he's gonna have some tricks. But this Mook? Roll a d20. on a 20 he's got a flask of some nasty crap. What was is? Dunno. Are you going to let it hit you in the face to fine out? Well, I guess it was a delayed fireball in a flask of quintessence. BOOM.

5) Work out the treasure ahead of time, since you actually have to hand that over to the players. Or use Crystal Ball Randon treasure generator. (some day I will finish my upgrade of their files and have a TRUE and COMPLETE all RAW 3.0/3.5 magic item generator! Some day...) But feel free to outfit the NPCs with extra Expendable equipment on a whim. Someone used Oil of magical Weapon +5. Someone has blister oil for extra damage.

6) READ. READ A WHOLE LOT. You don't need to know the rules, you just need to be able to pull something out of your ass at the last second if a Player calls shenanigans. My handbooks will help. See my sig.

7) ROLL LOTS OF DICE AND LOOK PENSIVE. You must always be inscrutable while DMing. The rest of the time, feel free to be scrutable. But while you are DMing you must maintain an aura of Fear and Enigma. The players must always worry that you have planned something. They must think you are twelve steps ahead of everything they do. They must believe you are a master of Xanatos Speed Chess (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosSpeedChess).

This belief, especially if you don't give them time to think, will create a better playing enviroment for the players. They will think you are a God toying with them, when in reality you are three sheets to the wind and making it all up as you go along.

But that's doesn't matter. You smile and say, "Aha! I planned for this! Then paus to bring up a file and say, "Just a moment. Searching my hard drive. Ah, here is it. I keep it in a folder marked 'Players' Worst Nightmares" Meanwhile you are frantically reloading the random monster generator on Monsteradvancer.com

Find a mirror. Practice an evil sneer.

8) Then lose. Lose while pulling out your hair. Groan and demand to see the player's sheet. Frantically scour it looking for proof of the player's claim. mutter, "So many players, I forgot you could do that." Thrust it back at him. Hunch over your notes and scrunch up your lips, making them migrate randomly around your face. Finally throw your hand up and say, "FINE. All this work and THAT's how he dies? *sigh* look defeated. Describe the death of the NPC you spend months, nay, YEARS custom creating just to watch him DIE in 3 rounds of combat! My DREAMS of MURDERING ALL OF YOU. Dashed.... to pieces. *sob*

And while they are all High Fiving one another, "YEAH! BAD Guy went DOWN!" You let out a sigh. Another successful evening was had. Encourage them to RP among themselves while you adlib a new horror for them to handle.

[Kraklen88]

Captnq has it down.

I have been DMing a party of 8-12 people since July (yes I know, terrible). There are a few things I learned.

1) Splitting up the group should be the idea. If you don't, they might degenerate into a group of brigands like my group has.

2) NEVER use a BBEG solo. He should have some minions or clones or some way of distracting the other players. Web, evard's tentacles, it all works. Some people in my group try the DPS game....but can't when grappled or when the opponent is flying.

3) I have found that other challenges besides combat work wonders. Traps, illusions, etc.

4) If you really want them to stay together, they have to be resigned to the fact that certain ones will shine and others won't. And it will rotate.

For example: I have a beguiler in my group. Early on they fought undead which was great for the ranger and fighter. However, just recently they came upon a tribe of savages in their way. The beguiler essentially enslaved them while the rest simply watched.

Hope that helps.