Can an Aasimar be born from half-elven parents?

[Hikarizu]

I know that the celestial "gene" can skip several generations and reappear further down the family tree. If two half-elves, carrying the dormant celestial "gene" from the human side of their family were to have a child, could that child be an Aasimar?

[Thrair]

Sure. Each parent just has to provide all their inferior recessive genes to make the kid full-blooded human, while a good outsider gets involved.
...
What? D&D is guilty of far worse affronts to science than that. Don't give me that look.



In all seriousness, probably not, at least by flat RAW. Aasimar are described as humans. However, like all things in D&D, you're free to roleplay fluff or homebrew things a bit. If DMing, for example, you could add a weakened version of the celestial template to a half-elf.

[Psyren]

Your question is probably better phrased as:

"Can two half-elves produce a pure human child? Can two half-elves produce a pure elven child?"

If the answer to those is no, they probably can't produce an aasimar either.

Having said that, you could make it more palatable simply by using a variant aasimar - a Garuda-blooded from PF for instance.

[Dr. Azkur]

There is no RAW on geneologics, the only written stuff is fluff. The books don't expressly deny it, so as long as it can be logically explained, it is well and fair.

[The Insanity]

Aasimars don't have to be only human.

[Jeff the Green]

Your question is probably better phrased as:

"Can two half-elves produce a pure human child? Can two half-elves produce a pure elven child?"

If the answer to those is no, they probably can't produce an aasimar either.

Having said that, you could make it more palatable simply by using a variant aasimar - a Garuda-blooded from PF for instance.

In PF, it's explicitly possible—any humanoid can produce an aasimar; the only difference in stats is size.

I don't know about 3.5 because I'm AFB and that sort of stuff isn't on the 3.5 SRD. :smallannoyed: I think FRCS or PGTF says the same thing, essentially.

[Psyren]

Races of Destiny is pretty vague on it. I don't really have a dog in this fight either way, I'm just pointing out that it might be jarring.

[Fitz10019]

Just put a layer of Reincarnation in the story.

[Heliomance]

I see no reason why Aasimar should have to be human. It's not like humans are the One True Race, the only ones worthy of mating with celestials. Any race could have celestial blood in it back a few generations.

[LibraryOgre]

I see no reason why Aasimar should have to be human. It's not like humans are the One True Race, the only ones worthy of mating with celestials. Any race could have celestial blood in it back a few generations.

I'd mostly agree, though I'd say that the "base" aasimar assumes human or mostly human parentage... a gnome-descended aasimar is unlikely to be 6' tall.

I'd kinda like to see Aasimar as a template, in fact. +1 LA that says "touch of planar blood".

[Phelix-Mu]

The whole point of most planetouched fluff is that they appear randomly throughout a population or family in which there is some element of outsider/whatever ancestry. I don't see where that implies human.

A better question is whether such an aasimar from half-elven parents would have the elven subtype.

As to the gnome-parented aasimar, I see no reason why a tall child might not be born. Aasimar are strongly implied to have a very distinct appearance. If the size is an issue, the DM could always keep the aasimar Small, but change nothing else.

Either way, the game is often silent on such practical matters as breeding, child-rearing, and so forth. I'd take a gander at BoEF to see if it has anything to say, and then probably just houserule it as outlined above.

If it makes the story more interesting, I'd go for it. Creative license.

[Oko and Qailee]

I'd kinda like to see Aasimar as a template, in fact. +1 LA that says "touch of planar blood".

I mean, why not just let someone add the bonuses to a race?

Gives: +2 Wis/Cha, +2 Spot/Listen, Darkvision, Light once/day, etc.

[Devils_Advocate]

The Celestial Creature template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm) seems appropriate for mortals with some celestial blood. I don't think there's anything that says that that isn't where celestial creatures come from in the first place, and Monster Manual IV straight-up uses fiendish gnolls as the offspring/descendants of half-fiend gnolls.

Better than the "a minority of outsider blood changes your type to Outsider (Native)" thing, in my opinion.

[Phelix-Mu]

Celestial half-elves seems kind of weird, though. Plus, I'm not certain but I think we'd lose the bit of lore about aasimars randomly occuring in the population, because "'celestial' is an inherited template" (Monster Manual).

I'll have to re-examine the fluff surrounding aasimars. My recollection is that it resembled that involving spellscales, but I could be totally wrong.

Personally, I like the idea of random genetic throwbacks to some ancestor. It adds an interesting racial dynamic to the mix, and can lead to some very interesting character concepts (someone who is naturally virtuous but who was mistreated as a child? that sounds like an excellent start on a good concept). But I like misfits and outcasts in general.

Anyway, I think DM ruling is necessary to iron out the details here, and, as I said before, this is a good place to default to some Rule of Cool/Interesting.

[Hikarizu]

Thank you all for your opinions on the subject. The question was fluff-wise, but in retrospect I should have mentioned it initially. What I had in mind was the baby to be human enough for the celestial heritage to show up.

[Slipperychicken]

I remember seeing some fluff that pregnant women who spent too much time around powerful angels might have the kid become half-celestial/planetouched. You know how creatures have alignment auras? I like to imagine this is a result of overwhelming celestial "radiation" from that aura infecting the unborn kid's genes.

Also, you could always say that elves are genetically close enough to angels that it happens now and then.

[roguemetal]

Since Celestial is a template, and an Aasimar holds ancestry from a Celestial being, I would rule yes under the circumstance that one of their ancestors was Celestial, and they had human in their veins somewhere. From my interpretation of the descriptions in both Races of Destiny and MM1, Aasimar are similar to a template, in that they could be applied to any human, but the Aasimar's heritage overrides the original racial features. Therefore, it stands to reason that it could override the racial qualities of other races as well through ancestry.

[LibraryOgre]

Since Celestial is a template, and an Aasimar holds ancestry from a Celestial being, I would rule yes under the circumstance that one of their ancestors was Celestial, and they had human in their veins somewhere. From my interpretation of the descriptions in both Races of Destiny and MM1, Aasimar are similar to a template, in that they could be applied to any human, but the Aasimar's heritage overrides the original racial features. Therefore, it stands to reason that it could override the racial qualities of other races as well through ancestry.

IIRC, there's some hints in Races of Faerun that there are aasimar "families" that tend to carry similar racial traits... the Mulhourandi aasimar were noted as sharing traits with their deities, for example.

[Spore]

From the historical background, elves are fey creatures by heart anyway. By don't you just fluff Azata influence then and go either by the rules of an Aasimar or apply the Celestial Template (much like the summons except the DR/Evil) to Half Elves?

[Hikarizu]

From the historical background, elves are fey creatures by heart anyway. By don't you just fluff Azata influence then and go either by the rules of an Aasimar or apply the Celestial Template (much like the summons except the DR/Evil) to Half Elves?
Because I don't need need the crunch result to be half-elves with a touch of celestial. This was a fluff question and as I mentioned, I really should had put it in the first post.

[Spore]

Because I don't need need the crunch result to be half-elves with a touch of celestial. This was a fluff question and as I mentioned, I really should had put it in the first post.

I realize that but with several settings deriving their elves from natural planes, you could also utilize the Fey Templates to "naturalize" the Aasimar race a bit. :) If it helps I am quite helpless in extended 3.5 stuff so I don't know if Seelie and Unseelie Faeries just do what I thought of.

I didn't want to come off aggressive but just wanted to add another twist to your thoughts.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Well one parent could be Half-Elf while the other is a Half-Elf with the Half-Celestial Template.
In such a case the child being an Aasimar would be reasonable.

[ericgrau]

Half-elf is close enough to human that this could be purely a fluff difference. An aasimar has about as much in common with a half-elf as they do a human. You could make up a half-elf variant of aasimar too if you wanted, with only minor differences. I'd say increase spot and listen bonus to +3. Add elven blood. Change darkvision to improved low light vision (can see 4 times as far as normal). Done. Or leave it alone; half-elves are close to human anyway.

I did notice that planetouched says "human", I never noticed that before. But there's no reason why other races couldn't have celestial blood too.


Well one parent could be Half-Elf while the other is a Half-Elf with the Half-Celestial Template.
In such a case the child being an Aasimar would be reasonable.
Or aasimar or celestial even. Or maybe it skipped a generation, or maybe it's from one of your other ancestors. Whatever, just get a little celestial blood in there.

[Devils_Advocate]

According to their Monster Manual and SRD entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm), "Aasimars are humans with some trace of celestial blood in their veins". According to their Pathfinder SRD entry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/aasimar), "Aasimars are humans with a significant amount of celestial or other good outsider blood in their ancestry". It also says "Aasimar heritage can hide for generations, only to appear suddenly in the child of two apparently human parents". I'm guessing that this is the source of the "skips generations" idea, which I hadn't heard of before.

So aasimars are human by definition. (Which would make half-humans with celestial blood half-aasimar, naturally. ;) ) But that doesn't mean that other races never have celestial heritage as well! Planetouched don't have to be human at all; for example, the Fiend Folio details maeluths and wisplings, the dwarven and halfling counterparts to tieflings.

Of course, since presumably any race that can be half-outsider can also be planetouched, and since half-outsiders are handled with templates, it really makes more sense for planetouched to be handled with templates too...


Celestial half-elves seems kind of weird, though. Plus, I'm not certain but I think we'd lose the bit of lore about aasimars randomly occuring in the population, because "'celestial' is an inherited template" (Monster Manual).
That just means that it's something a creature is born with, rather than acquired later. It doesn't mean that one of your parents had to have it. Obviously a half-celestial, to pick a relevant example, can have one celestial and one non-celestial parent, neither of which has the Half-Celestial template.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, aside from issues with the (human) subtype, I think that does settle it. I may keep it different in my world, for flavor reasons.

If a half-elf has the (human) subtype (or the DM uses the variant where they all do, as I am prone to do), then I still think an aasimar could technically be born to two half-elves or a half-elf and a human.

What counts as a human and what is a human don't seem well established, to me, and, in any case, aside from npcs and pcs having children, the racial identity of ones parents is usually just a fluff thing or something for the DM and player to explore as part of a character's background. I typically err on the side of anything that makes for a more diverse world, but that's just my preference.

[Jeff the Green]

That just means that it's something a creature is born with, rather than acquired later. It doesn't mean that one of your parents had to have it. Obviously a half-celestial, to pick a relevant example, can have one celestial and one non-celestial parent, neither of which has the Half-Celestial template.

This came up in another aasimar thread. Celestial =/= celestial creature. A celestial creature is just a normal creature native to one of the good planes, while a celestial is an archon, guardinal, or eladrin. In other words, if a hound archon has a pet golden retriever, it's a celestial riding dog. If he marries her, their puppies are half-celestial celestial riding dogs.

[Dr. Azkur]

[...]if a hound archon has a pet golden retriever, it's a celestial riding dog. If he marries her, their puppies are half-celestial celestial riding dogs.

How did you even come up with that scenario? It will haunt me and bark at me in my dreams.

Also... major thread necro, man.

[Talya]

Your question is probably better phrased as:

"Can two half-elves produce a pure human child? Can two half-elves produce a pure elven child?"

If the answer to those is no, they probably can't produce an aasimar either.

Having said that, you could make it more palatable simply by using a variant aasimar - a Garuda-blooded from PF for instance.

PF doesn't require such gymnastics:


Sidebar: Non-Human Aasimar
Not all aasimar are descended from humans. Aasimars can be born of any intelligent race, though human aasimars are the most common. Aasimars of other races usually exemplify the ideals of beauty and skill as seen by their base race. For example, halfling aasimars are small, beautifully proportioned, and display exceptional grace. Half-orc aasimars are slightly larger and stronger than ordinary orcs, with tough skin and metallic claws and tusks—they are likely to be neutral rather than evil, but still display aggression and incredible combat prowess. Less common humanoids, such as lizardfolk, catfolk, tengus, and others, can also produce aasimars, though given these races’ exotic appearance, members of the more common races may have trouble telling such aasimars apart from their kin.

It should be noted that while any creature that breeds with a celestial may give birth to half-celestial offspring, only humanoids can give birth to aasimars. Thus, while it’s possible to encounter a half-celestial dragon, unicorn, or griffon, any children of such creatures would be either half-celestials or normal members of their race. (And just as often, these less conventional half-celestials are sterile.) When discussing half-celestials and aasimars, it’s important to distinguish them from both true celestials (angels, azatas, agathions, etc.) and simple celestial creatures (creatures with the celestial template, which are themselves denizens of the good-aligned Outer Planes but similar in many ways to their Material Plane counterparts). Most aasimars also have a difficult time getting people to grasp distinctions between celestial types, with common folk erroneously grouping all such beings together as “angels.”

Non-human aasimars have the same statistics as human aasimars with the exception of size. Thus a halfling aasimar is Small but otherwise possesses the same statistics and abilities as a human aasimar—the difference is purely cosmetic. Non-human aasimars do not possess any of the racial abilities of their base race. However, they are usually raised in the same cultural context as other members of their base race, and thus generally adopt the same fighting style as their peers, use the same types of weapons and armor, and study the same skills.

[Stoneback]

NOOOO!!!!

Half-Minotaur water orcs are just fine. But NOT A GIMPED AASIMAR!!!

[Psyren]

PF doesn't require such gymnastics:

Pretty sure that sidebar is from Blood of Angels, which I didn't have at the time. (Necromancy, yo.)

[Talya]

Oh wow, I didn't notice the thread necromancy. You are correct, sir.

[Jeff the Green]

Oh wow, I didn't notice the thread necromancy. You are correct, sir.

I think it's still within the 45-day limit, actually.

[Talya]

I think it's still within the 45-day limit, actually.

If that's the case, blood of angels was out in 2012, come to think of it! I bet that sidebar was already there!

Psyren, you're slipping.

[Psyren]

If that's the case, blood of angels was out in 2012, come to think of it! I bet that sidebar was already there!

Psyren, you're slipping.

I said I didn't have it, not that it wasn't out :smalltongue: It's not like I go scouring the SRD for every tidbit that isnt in an Ultimate/Advanced.

[Phelix-Mu]

I actually like having all adult aasimar, regardless of their parentage, looking the same. Hehe, definitely my tendency to like outcast-types seeping into my opinion.

Don't spellscales work in a similar fashion to this? I think that might have been part of my initial confusion on this matter. Ah, all these months of Exalted are dulling the edge on my mental d&d reference. I'll have to go back and reread stuff. *sigh*:smallsmile:

[Larkas]

I'd kinda like to see Aasimar as a template, in fact. +1 LA that says "touch of planar blood".

I've seen Tiefling and Aasimars used as templates before, actually. Works pretty well, and makes more sense for the LA cost. I think I'll do the same if the situation ever comes up in my games.

[Talya]

I said I didn't have it, not that it wasn't out :smalltongue: It's not like I go scouring the SRD for every tidbit that isnt in an Ultimate/Advanced.

I don't get it. I have all these books in pdf form, and yet I rarely open them. I ALWAYS use the SRD.

[Psyren]

I don't get it. I have all these books in pdf form, and yet I rarely open them. I ALWAYS use the SRD.

I didn't read the sidebar back then. If you still don't get it then... no skin off my nose. *shrug*

[Talya]

I didn't read the sidebar back then. If you still don't get it then... no skin off my nose. *shrug*

Meh. I think it's as simple as the fact that I tend to like playing Aasimar, and so have sifted through that particular section with the proverbial fine-toothed comb.