[3.5] Best Element to Focus Around?

[A.A.King]

From an optimization point of view, going by numbers and crunch, which element (Air/Fire/Water/Earth) is the best to build around?

When you think of:
1) Spells with that subtype
2) Associated Feats (Like Fire Devotion, Water Bloodline & Air Heritage but also the special ones like Earth Sense which have no counterpart)
3) Having the associated elemental as a familiar
4) The extras, like races or extra abilities (example: Raptoran and Flying for air)

If you had to build a Sorcerer/Wizard around one the elements, if you tried to optimize around one of them but with taking as many of the (probably sub-optimal) associated things like the familiar and the Heritage/Bloodline feat, which element would come out on top and why?

Personally I'd think the Earth Element would win because it got a lot of support in Races of Stone, though Air is probably a good second.

[Kennisiou]

If acid is associated with earth, earth is probably the strongest element unless Sonic is associated with air, in which case it's air.

If you're associating flight spells, sonic spells, and lightning spells with air as well as wind spells you wind up with a lot of damage, some battlefield control, and good mobility options.

[XmonkTad]

For spells I would say air, but I think wind wall is a stupidly good spell. Earth spell is one of those cheese feats.

For familiars, earth tend to be best because of HP and earthglide scouting.

Strongest I can't really give you, but the weakest will probably be fire.

[Erik Vale]

Earth or Air. Both grant battlefield crontol, however earth gives more blasty whilest air more movement. But if earth grants burrow then I'd go earth.

There's also that Acid gets around some regenerations, electricity not so much.

[nedz]

It depends upon the campaign.

Sea based: Water and Air, though Fire is effective against ships.
Underground: Earth and Air
Wilderness: Air probably, though the others have some mileage.

Fire does have some good spells, but you can grab those with Energy Substitution.

It's looking like Air, though I do like Water too.

[HunterOfJello]

Wood Element magic > All



Wu Jens ftw

[Juntao112]

Friendship.

[Totema]

I guess it depends a little on whether or not fog is considered part of Air or Water. Could reasonably be either one.

[Erik Vale]

Heart/Friendship

What kind of lame power is hear anyway? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatKindOfLamePowerIsHeartAnyway)

:smallbiggrin:
Please don't kill me for ruining your lives. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)

[SassyQuatch]

Uranium.
..

[A.A.King]

Too bad I don't know any Uraniun spells or the Heart Familiar

[Ionbound]

If you count electricity and sonic under air, air is definitely the way to go. Lightning spells tend to be pretty high damage, sonic is good for getting past those pesky elemental resistances, and you've also got a bunch of good utility spells like Wind Walk, Overland Flight, and the ever-popular and already mentioned Wall of Wind

[Psyren]

Non-joke answer - the best is probably force, very few monsters are immune or resistant to it and it can also harm/impede both incorporeal and ethereal creatures. It also has lots of utility/control spells as well as damage.

[A.A.King]

But Force has very little support right? You can only build around it in the way of spell selection for as far as I know

[Red Fel]

I happen to like Electricity. First off, look at the Born of Three Thunders feat. Consider the fact that BoTT requires Energy Substitution as a prereq. This means that, for no adjustment, any spell with any energy descriptor becomes and Electric spell. Also for no adjustment, any Electric spell (which means any spell with an energy descriptor) that deals damage deals half Electric, half Sonic, stuns enemies and knocks them prone. (Yes, it may cause the caster to be dazed, but there are ways to prevent that.)

Consider also the fact that several Golems, otherwise immune to spells, have no save against Electricity damage. Consider also that Electricity spells, such as Chain Lightning, are the archetypical "I want to hit this target, and that one, and that one, without having to do an area attack" spell. Consider also that, with regard to psionics, Energy [Power] powers using the Electric descriptor gain a +2 DC to saves and a +2 ML to overcome Power Resistance. (Not relevant if you're an arcane caster, but interesting nonetheless.)

Consider also the classes explicitly designed around Lightning, such as Stormcaster or Stormlord. Remember the synergy with Energy Substitution. For example, Stormcaster's 5th-level ability causes any spell that deals Electricity damage to also deal Sonic damage and stun targets. With Energy Substitution, that means every damage-dealing spell gets this effect.

Finally, for pure flavor, consider the Conductivity feat, arguably one of the better elemental-themed Spelltouched feats. (Controlled Immolation and 1/day Polar Chill are hardly worthy of mention.) Although it's not super great, for pure flavor, being able to throw someone's lightning spell back at them is a neat touch.

Short answer? Although I love fire on principle, mechanically, I think Electricity is a great choice, particularly because you tend to get Sonic for free tacked on. I know, it's shocking.

... First one to make a Pikachu joke gets a Thunderswarm right between the eyes.

[A.A.King]

I'll definetly will consider it. You make a very compalling case for Elektricity

[Psyren]

But Force has very little support right? You can only build around it in the way of spell selection for as far as I know

There are PrCs for it too, like Force Missile Mage and Argent Savant. Pathfinder also has a handful of feats like Toppling Spell.

[Vedhin]

Non-joke answer - the best is probably force, very few monsters are immune or resistant to it and it can also harm/impede both incorporeal and ethereal creatures. It also has lots of utility/control spells as well as damage.

Force is not an element! Nor is it an energy! It is a descriptor! and a damage type!



Anyway, on to the matter at hand. I have looked into this myself and my conclusion, going by standard element/energy associations is as follows:

fire/fire<water/cold<earth/acid<air/electricity.

Fire/fire: Fire, in general, is stuck with blasting and little utility. Movement-wise, the standard is speed increases, not new modes. It uses the most commonly resisted damage type.

Water/cold: Water tends to be more suited for aquatic campaigns, as it grants things like swim speeds. Cold is the second most commonly resisted damage type. Water often has some battlefield control and utility, and picks up some healing for some classes.

Air/electricity: Air gives you flight. Air also can push things around, with spells like Gust of Wind and Cyclonic Blast. It also gets some nice utility like Wind Wall. It is often associated with Divination spells. It uses the second least commonly resisted damage type.

Earth/acid: Air lets you burrow (though not many spells, and they have short durations). It often has defensive buffs like Stoneskin. It uses the least commonly resisted damage type.


Acid vs Electricity:
I hold that though electricity is more commonly resisted than acid, it is a batter damage type. Why?
1. acid sometimes gets nerfed damage dice.
2. of the immune subtypes of Outsiders, electricity-immunity is a trait of various Good-aligned Outsiders, but Acid-immunity is a trait of Evil-aligned Outsiders. Most campaigns are Good campaigns, so electricity ends up with less resistant creatures in practice (acid only barely edges out electricity to begin with).
3. electricity gets better support. It gets feats and PrCs with useful abilities. Acid doesn't.
4. Air lets you fly, which is much more useful than the intermittent burrow granted by Earth. Air is also more versatile than Earth.

[Red Fel]

Another option is Cold, which as you may or may not know is the source of the infamous Locate City Bomb.

Start with Snowcasting. By using snow or ice as an additional material component, you can make any spell into a [Cold] spell. Unlike Energy Substitution, which requires a spell to have a pre-existing descriptor, Snowcasting creates the descriptor out of the ether. Note that unlike Energy Substitution, which does not modify spell level, Snowcasting raises the level by +1.

Next, look at modifiers. Lord of the Uttercold, for no level adjustment to the spell, splits the damage between Cold and Negative Energy. Not very useful against Undead (although fantastic if you're a Necromancer and want to use area spells without hurting your minions), but pretty darn useful against everything else. (And with Fell Drain tacked on, you're going to get even more minions out of the bargain. See also: Locate City Bomb.)

And let's look at the feats that follow Snowcasting. Frozen Magic increases the caster level of your [Cold] spells when it's cold out. Cold Spell Specialization, when it's cold out, increases [Cold] spell damage. Thanks to Snowcasting (or Energy Substitution), that's all of your damaging spells. Icy Calling boosts your cold-environment summons. Frostfell Prodigy increases your bonus spells when it's cold out.

But wait, I hear you say, these only work in an arctic campaign. It has to be cold out. Not so, friend. Remember, you're a frost mage. You're an ice guy. You live to make it cold. Say hello to the Fimbulwinter spell. You will make a winter lasting 4d12 weeks, spread over a 1 mile/level area. And in that time and space, you will be an arctic god.

What, you want more? Consider the Winter's Blast reserve feat - enjoy your 1d4/level Cone of Cold effect as long as you have a [Cold] spell on hold.

You want classes? Consider the Frost Mage, which among other things lets you overcome Cold Immunity, or the Winterhaunt of Iborighu, which gives you a constant Piercing Cold bonus to your spells for no adjustment. Consider also the Domain Wizard variant, with the Cold domain, letting you cast your Cold Domain spells at +1 CL.

Psionics come in here too, with the Cryokineticist - literal brain-freeze.

Stay frosty, my friends.

[Psyren]

Force is not an element! Nor is it an energy! It is a descriptor! and a damage type!

Eh, depends on your definition. I mean, if you're allowing stuff like Fly under Air, it's pretty much a thematic grab-bag at that point.

In fact, you could justify sonic spells, electricity spells, wind spells and force spells all under Air if you went broadly enough, in which case Air probably wins.

[Vedhin]

Eh, depends on your definition.

Actually, no it doesn't. Unless you mean "whether or not you define them as what the rules define them as".


I mean, if you're allowing stuff like Fly under Air, it's pretty much a thematic grab-bag at that point.

I was more referring to things like Air Walk. Also, I was refrencing the Shugenja for some of that (since they are element-themed casters.)



In fact, you could justify sonic spells, electricity spells, wind spells and force spells all under Air if you went broadly enough, in which case Air probably wins.

Electricity-Air association is well supported by precedent. Wind spells fall under Air because common sense. Sonic is not associated with any element. Force is definitely not associated with any elements or energy.

[Red Fel]

Eh, depends on your definition. I mean, if you're allowing stuff like Fly under Air, it's pretty much a thematic grab-bag at that point.

In fact, you could justify sonic spells, electricity spells, wind spells and force spells all under Air if you went broadly enough, in which case Air probably wins.

To be fair, are we going with the Western Four, being Earth, Fire, Air, and Water (because Heart is a lame power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatKindOfLamePowerIsHeartAnyway)), or are we going with the Eastern Five, being Water, Wood, Fire, Earth and Metal (replace one of those with Air/Lightning if you want)?

If the former, Air winds by a landslide. (Or a windfall?) It gets Electric, Air, and various flight-related stuff. Maybe Sonic too, since that's closely associated with Electric. Fire just gets Fire, Water gets Water and Cold, and Earth gets Earth and Acid.

If the latter, things get a bit more elaborate. Water and Fire are as above. Wood is potentially overpowered, if you just slap "Druid" on the list and run with it. Earth is still Earth, and Metal is frankly enigmatic.

That said, as a rule, I'd put Fire at the bottom of the list. Most fun, but most resisted element.

EDIT: Crappit, swordsage'd on the TVTropes ref.

[Psyren]

Actually, no it doesn't. Unless you mean "whether or not you define them as what the rules define them as".

Which rules would those be? The only place the rules remotely define "element" (that excludes descriptors) is when it is talking about planar cosmology, and even there we have more elements than the basic 4, e.g. shadow.


I was more referring to things like Air Walk. Also, I was refrencing the Shugenja for some of that (since they are element-themed casters.)

And again, this depends on your definition. If you go with Wu Jen for instance, Air isn't an element at all.



Sonic is not associated with any element.

This is incorrect, it gets associated with air and earth in near-equal measure.

[Yawgmoth]

Totally depends on what you want to do. If you like mobility and an energy type very commonly not resisted, go for air. Pick up BoTT and Energy Sub either orb of fire or orb of acid. If you want a little more blastiness with some decent battlefield control, go earth. Acid is also another very uncommonly resisted element that commonly has additional riders like status effects. Fire/cold have entire subtypes that are immune, but also have the most support so if you grab a way to pierce immunity/ignore resistances, then either of those can be fun. Fire in particular has a ton of ways to stack extra damage, but cold generally forgoes +damage in favor of Slow effects.

Personally, I go Acid > Elec > Fire = Cold unless I'm going for the elemental savant prc, in which it's all air all the time.

[Vedhin]

Which rules would those be? The only place the rules remotely define "element" (that excludes descriptors) is when it is talking about planar cosmology, and even there we have more elements than the basic 4, e.g. shadow.

Got an Elemental Plane of Force? Any place in the rules that lists elements refers to (at least one of) the four classical elements, as associated with the Elemental Planes. The exceptions are in oriental-flavored materials, and optional planes listed in Manual of the Planes.

As for energy types, this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) comes out and says it.



And again, this depends on your definition. If you go with Wu Jen for instance, Air isn't an element at all.


The OP specified Air/Earth/Fire/Water.



This is incorrect, it gets associated with air and earth in near-equal measure.

How so? And it doesn't have any of the stated equivalencies like the other four energy types do, thus it is non-associated.

[nedz]

Personally I favour builds which use two elements which gives you more flexibility.

Also: What about the Para Elementals ?

Do they have any support ?

[evilserran]

Earth i choose you!

Fire is a joke, eveyrthing and it's mother in D&D has resist fire. It's blasty, but things resist your blastiness.

Air yea, it's cool, still quite a few things immune to it, flying is cool... everyone flies... i can get a belt and fly.

Water/Cold - Why? half the undead = immune. Learn to swim, drive on.

Earth/Acid, very few things immune to earth/acid. It lets you ignore tremor sense wit hthe right spells, as well as control elements for burrow/sinkhole shennanigans. It gives stoneskin for durability, meld into stone, turn flesh to stone etc. It may not excel beyond the others at a specific ability, but it can do nearly anything, if you can think it.

[Scow2]

Air yea, it's cool, still quite a few things immune to it, flying is cool... everyone flies... i can get a belt and fly.At which point most of your powers become useless, and the other half are already useless against your flying opponents (Though you still get a few half-hearted actions against ungrounded foes)

In addition to getting flight, Air allows you to completely screw over any enemies that fly, and boost any flight-capable allies. Not only do you fly, you fly better than everyone else and screw over those who don't.

I love the Djinni Bloodline for Sorcerers in Pathfinder. I just wish that they could trade out Overland Flight once they hit level 15 and get a better fly speed.

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm a big fan of the air bloodline feat. It give sorcerers a load of great spell like telekinesis and freedom and control winds. Control winds is such an amazing spell by itself. Telekinesis is obviously incredible and freedom is certainly useful.

I think the feat is a good example showing that air does have just ridiculous numbers of things counted under its nebulous heading.

[TuggyNE]

I'm always fond of acid damage, so I'd put my vote in for earth. Acid is not commonly resisted and even less frequently immune; it's the easiest damage type to find SR:No spells for, and it does full damage to objects instead of being halved or quartered. Finally, it is probably the single most common regeneration breaker. Alternatively Friendship, like Juntao112, because who doesn't want to specialize in "magic, just magic"? :P