Level 2 Duskblade weaknesses check

[FinnDarkblade]

I'll be playing this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=763592) level 2 Lesser Tiefling Duskblade in an E6 survival horror game soon. It's a pretty standard Duskblade build, although I know Lesser Tiefling isn't necessarily the best choice, especially since the DM removed the energy resistances(which I don't have a problem with). That's more for fluff preferences. The strategy I'm thinking about for right now is pretty much the same as a fighter's, and that worries me a bit since I have light armor and d8 hit die. I'm currently using a greatsword and I'll be power attacking with it most of the time since I can't channel with it yet. Do you think I should consider switching to a guisarme to keep reach on enemies since my AC and hitpoints aren't quite as good as a dedicated melee fighter? Next level I plan on picking up Knowledge Devotion to help with damage and accuracy.

[Zharradan Marr]

First, you have things like Color Spray and Ray of Enfeeblement available to you, so you don't necessarily have to wade into melee always. You can pick your fights. Second, if AC bothers you this much, you can take the Battle Caster feat, to cast spells in armor one category heavier, so now you can wear medium armor (and starting from level 4, heavy armor).

[Irk]

Maybe swap out combat casting for combat expertise then use a flaw to take improved trip and get a guisarme to trip away. it'll be good later to when you can use your second attack from tripping to channel a spell.

[FinnDarkblade]

Maybe swap out combat casting for combat expertise then use a flaw to take improved trip and get a guisarme to trip away. it'll be good later to when you can use your second attack from tripping to channel a spell.

Combat Casting is a bonus feat from Duskblade and there are no flaws allowed unfortunately.


First, you have things like Color Spray and Ray of Enfeeblement available to you, so you don't necessarily have to wade into melee always. You can pick your fights. Second, if AC bothers you this much, you can take the Battle Caster feat, to cast spells in armor one category heavier, so now you can wear medium armor (and starting from level 4, heavy armor).

If I take Battle Casting now then I lose Power Attack. I know in D&D the best way to prevent taking damage is to kill the enemy faster so I'm quite hesitant to make my level 1 feat anything but Power Attack. That's definitely good advice about picking my battles. I'll have to make sure he acts like a character with a 16 Int.

*edit* Also, I don't see anything in the Duskblade class description that says if I can already cast in medium armor at level 4 then I get casting in heavy armor early.

[Zharradan Marr]

In that case, revamp your spell selection. I suggest:
- Ray of Enfeeblement (alternative to wading into melee)
- Color Spray (same)
- Swift Expeditious Retreat (get out of melee when things get hot)
Resist Energy is a poor choice (unless you desperately need an Abjuration spell to qualify into Abjurant Champion? and you can get it later anyway) since it doesn't advance the goals you have in mind. Shocking Grasp, you can of course get at level 3.

[Averis Vol]

If I take Battle Casting now then I lose Power Attack. I know in D&D the best way to prevent taking damage is to kill the enemy faster so I'm quite hesitant to make my level 1 feat anything but Power Attack. That's definitely good advice about picking my battles. I'll have to make sure he acts like a character with a 16 Int.

While that is true, at low levels, your 2d6+4+channel is more then enough to kill most enemies. So while it's normally rocket tag, if you take combat expertise now, and at level three imp trip, you reduce the degree of rocket tag aimed at you by making your defenses better when they matter (Low levels.)

[FinnDarkblade]

While that is true, at low levels, your 2d6+4+channel is more then enough to kill most enemies. So while it's normally rocket tag, if you take combat expertise now, and at level three imp trip, you reduce the degree of rocket tag aimed at you by making your defenses better when they matter (Low levels.)

It's really just making it from 2nd to 3rd that I'm worried about, because then I pick up channeling.

[Irk]

Combat Casting is a bonus feat from Duskblade and there are no flaws allowed unfortunately.


Oh right, I forgot about the bonus feat. Like people have been saying, you can survive with just your spells. Just take a level of invisible fist decisive strike martial monk instead of a second level of dusk blade and grab improved trip. this should give you some good combat options and you can still grab power attack, you can get channeling at level 4.

[FinnDarkblade]

Oh right, I forgot about the bonus feat. Like people have been saying, you can survive with just your spells. Just take a level of invisible fist decisive strike martial monk instead of a second level of dusk blade and grab improved trip. this should give you some good combat options and you can still grab power attack, you can get channeling at level 4.

I've thought about dipping but the DM might be adding a Duskblade capstone feat that would let me channel on a full attack.

[Raezeman]

About your abilities, is a 16 intelligence really necessary? Ofcourse, this depends on spell selection, and extra spells per day are always welcome, but duskblade spells only go up to level 5 and you can pick all spells without saving throw (except probably colour spray, but you are going to want to switch that one out later on anyway).

[HammeredWharf]

I rather liked a tripper Duskblade. Channel your spells into touch attacks, get trip checks, whack them afterwards for extra damage. At level 2, a mix of tripping and Color Spray should be good enough. You'll only get to 2:nd level spells in E6, so 11-14 int should be enough. 14 will get you a bonus 2nd level spell per day later on, but is also achievable via items.

[Xerlith]

I've thought about dipping but the DM might be adding a Duskblade capstone feat that would let me channel on a full attack.

Full Attack Channel is a level 13 standard Duskblade class ability though...

[LordHenry]

Quick Question: Does the Duskblade lvl 13 Arcane Channeling allow me to apply the effect of my touch attack on EVERY hit while full attacking this round?
Could I apply the effect of, for example, vampiric touch 4 times, provided I hit with every attack (hasted)? Does it work 4 times on the SAME target?

[Raezeman]

Quick Question: Does the Duskblade lvl 13 Arcane Channeling allow me to apply the effect of my touch attack on EVERY hit while full attacking this round?
Could I apply the effect of, for example, vampiric touch 4 times, provided I hit with every attack (hasted)? Does it work 4 times on the SAME target?

That's been up for a lot of discussion. I think no, but ask your DM anyhow.

[LordHenry]

I thought so. Unfortunately, I am the DM in question. I guess I will rule that it affects every creature hit during that full attack, but no one can be affected more than once.

[Scow2]

Full Attack Channel is a level 13 standard Duskblade class ability though...From what I've seen, most Class features for most classes aren't actually more powerful than feats, but given artificial importance by arbitrarily being restricted to specific high levels on a class (Unless it's a progressing class feature or capstone)

[hymer]

From what I've seen, most Class features for most classes aren't actually more powerful than feats, but given artificial importance by arbitrarily being restricted to specific high levels on a class (Unless it's a progressing class feature or capstone)

Feats run from the piddling to the extremely powerful. I'm not sure a general comparison is really possible, or quite how useful it would be.
That said, i agree that allowing an E6 duskblade to channel a full attack via capstone feat isn't necessarily broken.

[FinnDarkblade]

About your abilities, is a 16 intelligence really necessary? Ofcourse, this depends on spell selection, and extra spells per day are always welcome, but duskblade spells only go up to level 5 and you can pick all spells without saving throw (except probably colour spray, but you are going to want to switch that one out later on anyway).

One of the major reasons for the 16 Int is to get as much as possible out of Knowledge Devotion. I'm not human so I don't get that bonus and since I'm a Lesser Tiefling I only pick up 2 points by dropping my Int to a 14. Do you have any suggestions on where to put those 2 points?


I rather liked a tripper Duskblade. Channel your spells into touch attacks, get trip checks, whack them afterwards for extra damage. At level 2, a mix of tripping and Color Spray should be good enough. You'll only get to 2:nd level spells in E6, so 11-14 int should be enough. 14 will get you a bonus 2nd level spell per day later on, but is also achievable via items.

I've never played a tripper before(this is actually my first time playing a melee character who doesn't rely on sneak attack) but I did pick up a guisarme and I'll be seeing how well that works. Downgrading my damage from 2d6 to 2d4 makes power attack even more important though doesn't it? Also, can I make a trip attack as an AoO when someone moves into melee range?


In that case, revamp your spell selection. I suggest:
- Ray of Enfeeblement (alternative to wading into melee)
- Color Spray (same)
- Swift Expeditious Retreat (get out of melee when things get hot)
Resist Energy is a poor choice (unless you desperately need an Abjuration spell to qualify into Abjurant Champion? and you can get it later anyway) since it doesn't advance the goals you have in mind. Shocking Grasp, you can of course get at level 3.

I already had the first 2 but I did switch out Resist Energy for Swift Expeditious Retreat.
And I was getting Touch of Fatigue mixed up with Ray of Enfeeblement. It does definitely make sense to wait for Shocking Grasp until I pick up channelling, thanks for that. I swapped it out for Ray of Enfeeblement.

[Xerlith]

Feats run from the piddling to the extremely powerful. I'm not sure a general comparison is really possible, or quite how useful it would be.
That said, i agree that allowing an E6 duskblade to channel a full attack via capstone feat isn't necessarily broken.

*thump* Didn't notice it was E6. University seems to have broken me. Disregard my previous post. :smallbiggrin:

[Bakkan]

I've never played a tripper before(this is actually my first time playing a melee character who doesn't rely on sneak attack) but I did pick up a guisarme and I'll be seeing how well that works. Downgrading my damage from 2d6 to 2d4 makes power attack even more important though doesn't it? Also, can I make a trip attack as an AoO when someone moves into melee range?


First, you don't get an AoO against someone moving into one of your threatened squares. You get an AoO against them if they move out of one without tumbling, using a 5-foot step, or using the Withdraw action. If and when you get an AoO, you can make a trip attempt as your attack.

[eastmabl]

If I take Battle Casting now then I lose Power Attack. I know in D&D the best way to prevent taking damage is to kill the enemy faster so I'm quite hesitant to make my level 1 feat anything but Power Attack. That's definitely good advice about picking my battles. I'll have to make sure he acts like a character with a 16 Int.

My only critique of this statement is that Power Attack isn't terrible helpful at level 1, where your maximum penalty for PA is 1. Unless I'm going up the PA tree, I usually will take PA around level 3, where you get some more bang for your buck, and use my first level feat on something like Weapon Focus.

[FinnDarkblade]

First, you don't get an AoO against someone moving into one of your threatened squares. You get an AoO against them if they move out of one without tumbling, using a 5-foot step, or using the Withdraw action. If and when you get an AoO, you can make a trip attempt as your attack.

I'm asking in the case of a guisarme, so unless they have a reach weapon also they do have to leave a square I threaten to attack me.


My only critique of this statement is that Power Attack isn't terrible helpful at level 1, where your maximum penalty for PA is 1. Unless I'm going up the PA tree, I usually will take PA around level 3, where you get some more bang for your buck, and use my first level feat on something like Weapon Focus.

We're starting at level 2 though, and since I can't get Knowledge Devotion at level 1 I'd like to make it my 3rd level feat. How necessary is Improved Trip for a tripper?

[Zharradan Marr]

*edit* Also, I don't see anything in the Duskblade class description that says if I can already cast in medium armor at level 4 then I get casting in heavy armor early.The Battle Caster feat ups the armor in which you can cast spells by one category.


Benefit

You are able to wear armor one category heavier than you can normally wear while still avoiding the chance of arcane spell failure
So, up to level 4: normally able to cast spells in Light armor -> with Battle Caster, able to cast in Medium armor
Level 4 and above: normally able to cast spells in Medium armor -> with Battle Caster, able to cast in Heavy armor

[eastmabl]

We're starting at level 2 though, and since I can't get Knowledge Devotion at level 1 I'd like to make it my 3rd level feat. How necessary is Improved Trip for a tripper?

You lose a +4 bonus to trip and risk attacks of opportunity without the feat.

If you have a reach weapon, the latter is less problematic, especially in single combat - but the lack of the +4 bonus might leave your opponent on his feat more often.

[FinnDarkblade]

The Battle Caster feat ups the armor in which you can cast spells by one category.
So, up to level 4: normally able to cast spells in Light armor -> with Battle Caster, able to cast in Medium armor
Level 4 and above: normally able to cast spells in Medium armor -> with Battle Caster, able to cast in Heavy armor

Oh, gotcha. I didn't know Battle Caster would apply to heavy automatically once I got medium. Still though, if I'm going to spend a feat on improving my defense it would probably be Combat Expertise for a couple of reasons. I'm already near my maximum light load and I need Combat Expertise to get Improved Trip anyways.


You lose a +4 bonus to trip and risk attacks of opportunity without the feat.

If you have a reach weapon, the latter is less problematic, especially in single combat - but the lack of the +4 bonus might leave your opponent on his feat more often.

Doesn't tripping only provoke an AoO if you're unarmed?

[DarkSonic1337]

Doesn't tripping only provoke an AoO if you're unarmed?

Only if you're using a tripping weapon to do the trip, it takes more than just being armed.

And a bigger benefit of improved trip is

"If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. "

[FinnDarkblade]

Only if you're using a tripping weapon to do the trip, it takes more than just being armed.

And a bigger benefit of improved trip is

"If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. "

Right, like I said, I'm using a guisarme.

[HammeredWharf]

I've never played a tripper before(this is actually my first time playing a melee character who doesn't rely on sneak attack) but I did pick up a guisarme and I'll be seeing how well that works. Downgrading my damage from 2d6 to 2d4 makes power attack even more important though doesn't it?

No, at least not during low levels. The majority of your damage should come from Channeling. PA is a nice bonus and a bit easier to use as a tripper, because tripped opponents get a -4 to their AC vs. melee. However, it's often not worth the accuracy penalty. You can use weapon capsules from Complete Adventurer to boost the damage of a single attack against the toughest-looking enemy. So, your attack would look like this:

1) Touch attack with shocking grasp + weapon capsules. 8d6 damage at level 5, so it's quite effective in addition to hitting well.
2) Trip check
3) A normal attack

/QUOTE]Also, can I make a trip attack as an AoO when someone moves into melee range?[/QUOTE]

Yes, if they don't have reach. However, it's reasonable to assume most melee combatants will at least carry a longspear with them. That's one of the reasons why you'll need Enlarge Person.