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tenthousandways
2014-01-22, 09:02 PM
So, I have a player in my Pathfinder game who has a clever idea for her character that I'm a more than a little stumped by. She's currently playing a Rogue/Chronicler who has shown a great deal of creativity and inginuity in using minor magical and alchemical items in novel ways. She has no interest in playing either an Alchemist or spell weilder of any sort, nor does she want to make her own magic items. Ideally, she wants to be able to "jury rig" magical items to do things slightly outside of their normal abilities.

Possible examples of this would be using a Hand of the Mage and a Ring of Spell Storing (as a battery) to cast Mage Hand at increased range or with greater lifting capacity, or to use a Staff of Swarms and a Bag of Tricks to summon a swarm of snakes or butterflies (why butterflies? I don't know either, but she would, and it would somehow be pivotal to undermining the command structure of a small hobgoblin army...).

Anybody got any clever ideas for a custom Prestige Class that could do this?

FYI, I run a magic heavy world, but through the telling of the story, I severely restrict the PC's access to civilized areas where they can readily buy magic items of their choosing. However, since it's a magic heavy world, there is an abundance of minor magic items to be found, particularly Wonderous Items that cast 1st level spells a couple times a day.

Thanks in advance.

Erberor
2014-01-22, 11:13 PM
Ultimately you'll never be able to really put this sort of thing into the rules. It just isn't possible to put something of this magnitude into strict rules without demolishing the flexibility of the class.

That's not to say that you couldn't make it work. You could try to come up with rules for jury rigging a magic item to put out twice as much energy/damage/healing/ferrets, or for applying metamagics to items that cast spells. However, to really accomplish "magic MacGyver", you'll have to improvise just as much as the character, coming up with the results of what she does on the fly.

Just make sure that sometimes things fail...like scroll mishaps. possibly having effects reversed, sent in the wrong direction, and of course simply detonating.

Domriso
2014-01-22, 11:57 PM
The "easiest" way I can think of to do something like this isn't actually all that easy at all. There's a 3rd party source book published by Green Ronin called True Sorcery which is designed to replace the Vancian spellcasting system. It replaces it with a skill-based casting system where the casters learn a number of "seed spells" which can be augmented to produce different effects. It's much more difficult than standard D&D, but once you get used to the system you can do all sorts of things. It was specifically designed in such a way as to be easily able to emulate every core 3.5 spell, and then be able to do more besides it.

In any case, because it was designed to be able to emulate any 3.5 spell, it also has built in mechanics for crafting magical items. My envisioning for this sort of prestige class would be to have every magical item essentially stated out in True Sorcery terms, and then allow the class to be able to alter the way the item is intended to work.

In mechanical terms, it would work by allowing the player to change the effects of the magical item, so long as it is still governed by the same spell seed and still uses the same DC to craft it. This would allow some flexibility, but not the ability to, say, shoot a gout of water out of a bag of tricks.

In fact, if I were to make a whole prestige class, the 1st level ability would be the ability to alter a magical item in this way. I would include a list of possible mishaps and whatnot, because that's always interesting, but the core ability would work as above.

I would allow the character a number of items, maybe equal to half their level + their Charisma modifier or something, which never are at risk of mishaps, but which take a week to attune. So, the player can switch up which items they are attuned to, but it does take time.

2nd level I would give the character a pool of "virtual DC," essentially allowing the character to increase the maximum DC of the item by spending from this pool. It would allow more flexibility in altering the items. This pool would increase in size every level.

3rd level I would let the player be able to combine two different magical items so as to mix the effects. In essence, one item would be the "base item," and that would determine the maximum DC and the original spell seed. The second item would add in any other spell seeds, but not alter the DC, thereby allowing even greater flexibility in the alteration of the items. At 5th level I would bump this up to allow two secondary items to be used.

4th level I would let the player draw power from another magical item so as to increase the maximum DC of another item. Once again, the base item would contain the spell seeds and normal maximum DC, but the second item would add to that amount, maybe increasing the amount of the first item by 1/5th or 1/4th the maximum DC of the second item, but only if the second item possesses a higher maximum DC to begin with. This ability would "burn out" the secondary item, essentially rendering it useless for some time (maybe based on the amount of maximum DC added?). It would also be able to be combined with the 3rd level ability.

At 5th level, I would add in the ability to alter currently cast spells in this manner, but require high Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft checks to do so.

In all honesty, this sounds amazing and I probably am going to use it for a prestige class for my own campaign, because I use the True Sorcery rules already. I know it's not ideal, but I really do think it would work.

EdroGrimshell
2014-01-23, 03:00 AM
The "easiest" way I can think of to do something like this isn't actually all that easy at all. There's a 3rd party source book published by Green Ronin called True Sorcery which is designed to replace the Vancian spellcasting system. It replaces it with a skill-based casting system where the casters learn a number of "seed spells" which can be augmented to produce different effects. It's much more difficult than standard D&D, but once you get used to the system you can do all sorts of things. It was specifically designed in such a way as to be easily able to emulate every core 3.5 spell, and then be able to do more besides it.

In any case, because it was designed to be able to emulate any 3.5 spell, it also has built in mechanics for crafting magical items. My envisioning for this sort of prestige class would be to have every magical item essentially stated out in True Sorcery terms, and then allow the class to be able to alter the way the item is intended to work.

In mechanical terms, it would work by allowing the player to change the effects of the magical item, so long as it is still governed by the same spell seed and still uses the same DC to craft it. This would allow some flexibility, but not the ability to, say, shoot a gout of water out of a bag of tricks.

In fact, if I were to make a whole prestige class, the 1st level ability would be the ability to alter a magical item in this way. I would include a list of possible mishaps and whatnot, because that's always interesting, but the core ability would work as above.

I would allow the character a number of items, maybe equal to half their level + their Charisma modifier or something, which never are at risk of mishaps, but which take a week to attune. So, the player can switch up which items they are attuned to, but it does take time.

2nd level I would give the character a pool of "virtual DC," essentially allowing the character to increase the maximum DC of the item by spending from this pool. It would allow more flexibility in altering the items. This pool would increase in size every level.

3rd level I would let the player be able to combine two different magical items so as to mix the effects. In essence, one item would be the "base item," and that would determine the maximum DC and the original spell seed. The second item would add in any other spell seeds, but not alter the DC, thereby allowing even greater flexibility in the alteration of the items. At 5th level I would bump this up to allow two secondary items to be used.

4th level I would let the player draw power from another magical item so as to increase the maximum DC of another item. Once again, the base item would contain the spell seeds and normal maximum DC, but the second item would add to that amount, maybe increasing the amount of the first item by 1/5th or 1/4th the maximum DC of the second item, but only if the second item possesses a higher maximum DC to begin with. This ability would "burn out" the secondary item, essentially rendering it useless for some time (maybe based on the amount of maximum DC added?). It would also be able to be combined with the 3rd level ability.

At 5th level, I would add in the ability to alter currently cast spells in this manner, but require high Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft checks to do so.

In all honesty, this sounds amazing and I probably am going to use it for a prestige class for my own campaign, because I use the True Sorcery rules already. I know it's not ideal, but I really do think it would work.

Classic complexity coming from your head, Dom, I like this idea, honestly, and it works surprisingly well considering, but it does require a 3rd party source, so maybe not the ideal method. Still... definitely something to look into.

Domriso
2014-01-23, 02:04 PM
Well, I never said it was ideal... but, yeah, it's not. Still, the only alternative I can think of would essentially require creating lists of general kinds of effects so as to be able to compare what can be changed about an item. In essence, the 3rd party system is already set up, so why do all that work it's already present?

Domriso
2014-01-24, 02:11 PM
In an effort to show off what my proposed system can do (and support a wonderfully created supplement that I hold close to my heart), I've decided to write up a couple of possible uses of this class, in the vein that your player seems to want to use it.

First up is Hand of the Mage. To make the Hand of the Mage would only require a DC 16 check (base 15 for the Telekinesis spell seed, +1 to add 10 ft. to the range of the spell). It requires a standard action to activate, and thus works pretty much the same. Now, the problem is that since there is very little DC which could be shuffled around by the player, since 15 of the DC is taken up by the basic effect and pretty much nothing else costs as little as +1.

However, by adding in the Ring of Spell Storing we get quite a bit of fun to add to things. To be honest, making something like a Ring of Spell Storing in True Sorcery is... difficult. This is because there isn't really any analogy to spell levels in True Sorcery; everything is simply based on DC. To try and simulate it, I figured out the DC of a couple of basic 1st level spells translated into the True Sorcery system, which turns out to be about 12. So, if the Ring can hold up to 5 spell levels, I'm going to make it so that the True Sorcery version can hold any number of spells, so long as their total cumulative DCs add up to no more than 60 (which is 12 x 5).

So, in essence, we can consider the Ring of Spell Storing in True Sorcery to be a magical item with a total DC of 60 (if it has spells stored within it). To use it as your player wanted, using my proposed class, she would have to be 4th level, but that's cool, we'll assume she is. So, she has a shiny new ring and a Hand of the Mage and wants to combine it. Let's assume that she burns 20 points of DC from the Ring to empower the Hand of the Mage. Assuming a 1/4th efficiency rating, that means she can add 5 DC to the Hand of the Mage effects.

Now, the Telekinesis spell seed has a number of cool effects. She could do something simple like increase the range (every additional 10 feet is +1 DC) or increase the weight manipulated (by adding +5 DC she can manipulate objects up to 25 pounds), but she could also do others things, such as converting the telekinetic force into a slow fall mechanism (base 15, reduce fall damage by 10 feet for every +2 added to DC).

If she wanted (and was able) to burn more DC from an item to add to the Hand of the Mage, she could even start doing things like hurl objects as a weapon, grapple other creatures, or even fly!

...

Let's pop over to your other example, with the Bag of Tricks and Staff of Swarms (I'm assuming you mean Staff of Swarming Insects? Otherwise I'm confused).

Bag of Tricks is another weird one to convert to True Sorcery. The base DC of the Summon spell seed is 5, but it can only summon one creature of less than 1 CR for 1 round. Increasing the duration to 10 minutes adds +18 to the DC, and increasing the CR of the creature to 1 (I'm assuming a Gray Bag of Tricks, which has a maximum CR creature of 1) adds an additional +5. That brings us up to 28 DC, but up to two creatures can be pulled per day, so let's add an extra +10 to the DC to simulate that (there's no exact corollary for this kind of effect in a magic item, but there is the "summon an additional creature" line in the spell seed), bringing us up to 38.

To be honest, going simply from the Summon spell seed, there's no reason to add a second item to the mix, because Summon can summon, well, anything, including swarms. However, what I'm thinking is that perhaps the swarms she wants to summon obscure vision, so I'm willing to let the Staff of Swarms add in an Obscure effect to make it difficult to see (or throw any other item that could do something like this).

Obscure normally provides a miss chance to a single target, but we can easily make that apply to an area (+4 to change it from a target to a 5 foot area, since a butterfly swarm takes up a 5 foot space). To get some basic concealment (20%) we only need to add +10.

The real complexity here is that what we've made is technically a blended spell, a spell combining two spell seeds into one. So, to figure out the DC of such a spell is a bit more math. We start with a base of 20, because that's the base of Obscure (the more difficult spell).
Then we add +2 because we're adding Summon to the mix (+2 per additional spell seed added).
From there we have to increase the duration to 10 minutes (+18, like before) and add in the change from target to area (+4). We also add in the +10 for increasing the miss chance to 20%.
We then have to match any changes made to the Obscure spell seed to the Summon spell seed, but the DC is only half of normal. So we add an additional +9 from increasing the time to 10 minutes, but the area effect and miss chance augmentations don't apply so we can just ignore them.
Finally we add any of the augmentations from the Summon spell seed, notably the +5 to increase the CR up to 1 and the +10 to add an additional creature.
This leaves us with a total DC of 74, far above the original DC of 38. That means we need to trim some things off.

First and foremost, we can get rid of the second creature and negate that +10; we're only summoning one swarm so who needs that extra DC? We also don't necessarily need that long of a duration; 5 minutes is probably fine for our purposes, so that will cut +8 out of the DC. In addition, a swarm of butterflies has a CR of under 1, so we can knock off that +5 effect as well. Look at that, already down to 51!

To go further, perhaps we don't need the total 20% miss chance. Knocking it back down to 41. Almost there! We just need 3 more DC to get back to normal. Looking into it, the easiest way to do that is by reducing the duration by an additional 2 minutes, making this effect last a total of 3 minutes. But, look at the bright side; now we can do it!

So, the final effect is that by combining the two items, rather than summoning a single weak creature for 10 minutes, she can summon a swarm of butterflies for 3 minutes, where any creature within the has a 10% miss chance to hit anything outside the swarm. Not bad for a little admixing!

===

In conclusion, the system works, but it is obviously complicated, and it requires more than a little familiarity with the True Sorcery system. Still, it would offer up the most obvious flexibility for your player, other than just ad hoc-ing the whole thing.

Calmar
2014-01-26, 05:56 AM
Anybody got any clever ideas for a custom Prestige Class that could do this?



Why don't you just allow it to succeed with a Use Magic Device check?
It's a big flaw of D&D that nowadays apparently everyone believes you are only able to do things your class explicitly states it can do.

KitsuneBoxing
2014-01-26, 07:39 PM
Ok, this isn't gonna solve everything, since, as many have said, it's basically a situation where any clear system of rules would limit the possibilities, since as it is, the only limit is imagination. That's as it should be as far as i'm concerned, if it's a good and fun player, then i don't really see any problem with making up rules on the fly based on what the player wants to try doing.

That said, i made a prestige class that focuses on using magical items in a more versatile way without being a caster, and maybe that would be a good background and support to more improvised ideas.

It's been thrown together quite fast, so some of the abilities may need tweeking or clarification, but i'm pretty pleased with it myself.

The Tinkerer

Prerequisites: Disable Device 3 ranks, Sleight of hand 3 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks, Use Magic Device 5 ranks

Skills per level: 8+int mod

Class Skills: As a rogue, but remove bluff, diplomacy, disguise and sense motive and add spellcraft and knowledge arcana.

{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+0|+0|+1|+1|Crafty Legerdemain, Fast Hands, Knick Knacks, Rig to Fire
2|+1|+1|+1|+1|Crank it Up, Gatherer, Improviser, Smart User
3|+2|+1|+2|+2|Rig to Explode, Thrifty User
4|+3|+1|+2|+2|Favorite Item, Tricks of the Trade
5|+3|+2|+3|+3|Cross the Streams, Fast Rigging[/table]

Crafty Legerdemain (Ex): A tinkerer can use Disable Device and Sleight of Hand at a range of 30 feet. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5 and doubles the time of the skill check (swift action becomes move action, move becomes standard, standard becomes full round), and a tinkerer cannot take 10 on this check. Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less. He/she can only use this ability if she has at least 1 rank in the skill being used. This ability requires the use of knick knacks.

Fast Hands (Ex): At level 1, a tinkerer can draw any item that he/she is carrying as a free action and he/she is considered to have the quick draw feat for any situation where this is necessary.

Knick Knacks (Ex): At level 1, a tinkerer carries a bag containing various things that may or may not be useful, such as a piece of string, a fishing hook, a small piece of felt, et cetra. These are treated as material components are for a spell caster and are needed for many of the tinkerers abilities.

Rig to Fire (Su): By spending one minute, the tinkerer can rig any magical item that requires a use magic device check to use (or a spell trigger item that he/she can use automatically) to be triggered after a certain time or by the tinkerer him/herself or by a special condition. The item can be triggered by the tinkerer as a swift action if he/she is within 30 feet of it, or it can be set to trigger after a set number of rounds, minutes, hours or days (maximum 5 days), or by a more specific condition, such as a door opening, the rays of the sun hitting it, et cetra. The tinkerer makes the use magic device check required to trigger the item as a part of rigging it, and with a -5 penalty. If the devide is triggered by the tinkerer, he/she can decide a target when it is triggered, otherwise, a target is decided at random, or the item can be set to target a specific area or square. This ability requires the use of knick knacks.

Crank it Up (Su): When using a magical item that has a finite number of uses, the tinkerer can spend two of those uses instead of one when using the item to increase a single numerical factor of the effect the item has when used. The factor increased cannot include damage or save dc, but any other factor can be changed. This includes range, area size, duration or any numerical factor unique to that particular magical effect. The factor is increased by 10%/tinkerer level, to a maximum of 50% at level 5. This ability requires the use of knick knacks.

Gatherer (Ex): By spending one hour searching and succeeding on an intelligence check with a dc of 10 to which the tinkerer adds his/her tinkerer level, the tinkerer can fully replace his/her collection of knick knacks if these had been lost for some reason. At level 4, the time required to search becomes ten minutes, at level 5, the times becomes one minute.

Improviser (Ex): At level 2, a tinkerer can spend one minute to craft an improvised tool from the enviroment around him/her. This can be any tool (within reason), but the tool is only usable for one task before it is destroyed. The tinkerer can also make craft checks untrained, adding his/her tinkerer level to these checks. This ability requires the use of knick knacks.

Smart User (Su): From level 2, when using a magical item that casts a spell, the tinkerer adds his/her tinkerer level to the effective caster level of the spell.

Rig to Explode (Su): This ability works as rig to fire, except the item does not trigger its' spell when triggered, but it explodes, creating a powerful blast of raw magic energy that destroys the item. In a 20 ft radius the explosion deals 1d4 force damage for each caster level of the item's creator (including extra ones from the smart user class feature). The dc is the same as the spell's. This can be triggered in the same ways as an item rigged to fire, but it can also be thrown by the tinkerer as a ranged splash weapon. As well as a use magic device check, the tinkerer must also succeed on a disable device check with the same dc and penalty. Anyone wishing to unrig the item must succeed on a disable device check opposed to that of the tinkerer. This ability requires the use of knick knacks.

Thrifty User (Su): At level 3, a tinkerer can use any magical item that can be used only once twice. Any wand or item with many uses gains a number of extra uses equal to the tinkerer's intelligence modifier. These extra uses exist only for the tinkerer and he/she still cannot use an item that has been completely used up by somebody else. This ability requires the use of Knick Knacks.

Favorite Item (Su): At level 4, a tinkerer can choose one magical item that he/she loves more than all others. To do this, the tinkerer must spend one hour with the item, making small adjustments to it. This cannot be an item with a finite number of uses. If it is an item that can cast a spell or make an effect, increase the caster level and the dc by one. If it is a weapon, the tinkerer gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with it. If it is an item that gives a bonus to the tinkerer, increase that bonus by +1. The tinkerer can change the item by spending an hour with another item.

Tricks of the Trade (Su): At level 4, a number of times per day equal to his/her intelligence modifier plus his/her tinkerer level, a tinkerer can do one of the following:
- Cast Identify or detect magic as a spell like ability.
- Use the crank it up ability with an item that has an infinite number of uses.
- Gain a +5 bonus to a single craft check.
- Increase the dc of a spell cast with a magical item by 1.

Cross the Streams (Su): At level 5, two times per day as a full round action, the tinkerer can combine two magical items into one, more powerful item. The tinkerer chooses which of the items' effects is activated. Both of the items must be ones that are usable as a standard action or less. If the effect is a spell then the dc is increased by 2 and a single metamagic feat of the tinkerer's choice that increases a spell level by two or less is applied to it for free. If the effect is something besides a spell, the tinkerer can have one of the following things happen in addition to the effect:
- A strong light erupts from the items, blinding everybody within a 30 ft radius for one round and making them dazzled for one minute. A fortitude save negates the blinding (dc 10+tinkerer level+int mod) but not the dazzled condition.
- The effect creates a powerful chockwave that sends the tinkerer flying 30 feet in a direction of his/her choice, landing prone but unharmed.
- The effect creates an explosion of energy, dealing 5d6 energy damage of the tinkerer's choice (fire, lightning, cold, acid, sonic), in a 20 ft radius. A successful reflex save divides the damage by half (dc 10+tinkerer level+int mod).
- Something else happens, appropriate to the items' natures and the situation. The tinkerer chooses what happens (with the gm's approval).

Fast Rigging (Ex): At level 5, once per day, the tinkerer can use rig to fire or rig to explode as a full round action.

Eulalios
2014-01-26, 07:50 PM
Why don't you just allow it to succeed with a Use Magic Device check?
It's a big flaw of D&D that nowadays apparently everyone believes you are only able to do things your class explicitly states it can do.

Yeah. That, exactly.