Easy ways to make mundane combat better (3.5)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Exactly as the thread title says. What are some easy houserules we can introduce to make things... just... a little nicer for mundane classes, without altering the game's mechanics enough to cause friction? I understand the game's fundamental imbalances can't be fixed without major rewriting-- that's not what I'm proposing here. These are low-impact improvements.

I'll start:

Grant Power Attack, a ranged equivalent, and Combat Expertise as bonus feats whenever a character hits BAB +1. (Grod)
Allow characters to make all iterative attacks on a standard action. When full attacking, all iteratives are made at the same -5 penalty. (Grod)
Add your Dex modifier to damage with ranged attacks. (Zman)
Finessable weapons now automatically use Dex to hit and damage. Weapon Finesse no longer exists as a feat. (Eldan)
Combat maneuvers (trips, grapples, etc) don't provoke attacks of opportunity, and don't allow enemies to retaliate on a failed attempt. (Grod)
Improved combat maneuver feats (Imp. Trip, Imp. Grapple, etc) grant an immediate melee attack when you successfully use the appropriate action, in the vein of Improved Trip. (Dienekes)
All classes get +4 skill points/level, and negative Int modifiers don't cause penalties. (Grod)
Cross-class skills can be purchased at normal costs, and raised to a maximum of (class level) ranks. (Grod)

[Zman]

Dex to Damage for Ranged Attacks and ranged Touch Attacks

No offhand strength penalty

[Leviting]

you could give all melee classes "Greenhilt's Mageslayer" as a free feat. if it is as good as the dream sequence, it should do great.

[Amnoriath]

Exactly as the thread title says. What are some easy houserules we can introduce to make things... just... a little nicer for mundane classes, without altering the game's mechanics enough to cause friction?

I'll start:

Grant Power Attack, a ranged equivalent, and Combat Expertise as bonus feats whenever a character hits BAB +1.
Allow characters to make all iterative attacks on a standard action. When full attacking, all iteratives are made at the same -5 penalty.
Combat maneuvers (trips, grapples, etc) don't provoke attacks of opportunity, and don't allow enemies to retaliate on a failed attempt.
All classes get +4 skill points/level, and negative Int modifiers don't cause penalties.
Cross-class skills can be purchased at normal costs, and raised to a maximum of (class level) ranks.


Namely I think mundanes need something to do with all kinds of actions they have without an item. As of now they have two kinds of actions they get very little use out of, swift and immediate actions.

[Dienekes]

All Improved Combat Maneuvers feats now grant an attack like Improved Trip.

As a whole just make feats cooler.

[Ziegander]

Replace AC with a class-based Defense score. This score is the default defense against all unwelcome assaults upon a character and is equal to 10 + 3/4 BAB + armor + relevant ability modifier + miscellaneous modifiers. Against hit point damage, add Dex mod, against other bodily harm add Con mod, and against mental assault add Will mod. Yes, armor adds to your defense against mental attacks. Spells cast against an unwilling target must succeed at a modified caster level check vs Defense (Caster level + casting stat + 1/2 spell level rounded up).

Whenever an effect requires a saving throw, it just says, "save negates," or "save halves," and Reflex/Fort/Will saves are replaced with a generic save made at 1d20 + Defense bonus + relevant ability modifier (Dex/Con/Wis).

This basically gives full BAB classes all good savesand even helps to make up for poor ability modifiers. Since these classes usually have the best armor, they also get to benefit from better protection vs spells and other hostile abilities such as poison and Mind Blast.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Replace AC with a class-based Defense score. This score is the default defense against all unwelcome assaults upon a character and is equal to 10 + 3/4 BAB + armor + relevant ability modifier + miscellaneous modifiers. Against hit point damage, add Dex mod, against other bodily harm add Con mod, and against mental assault add Will mod. Yes, armor adds to your defense against mental attacks. Spells cast against an unwilling target must succeed at a modified caster level check vs Defense (Caster level + casting stat + 1/2 spell level rounded up).

Whenever an effect requires a saving throw, it just says, "save negates," or "save halves," and Reflex/Fort/Will saves are replaced with a generic save made at 1d20 + Defense bonus + relevant ability modifier (Dex/Con/Wis).

This basically gives full BAB classes all good savesand even helps to make up for poor ability modifiers. Since these classes usually have the best armor, they also get to benefit from better protection vs spells and other hostile abilities such as poison and Mind Blast.
It's a cool idea, but the point of this thread was low-impact improvements. Things you can do that don't require rewriting other parts of the game.

[Ziegander]

It's a cool idea, but the point of this thread was low-impact improvements. Things you can do that don't require rewriting other parts of the game.

Gotcha. Well, I figured I'd throw it out there anyway, see if it stuck.

[Leviting]

in terms of defense, you could give front-line fighters damage reduction [class level/2]/-. Just thinking.

[Angelalex242]

By class:
Fighters get all PHB feats as soon as they qualify for them. They can still purchase feats from other books at their usual rate. (They now have access to EVERY fighter trick, instead of just one. The also have access to all exotic weapons, and have weapon focus/specialization/greater/improved crit with EVERY weapon in the game. Does +2 to hit and +4 damage and Improved Crit with every weapon mean all that much in the greater scheme of things? Well, no, but it at least sets them apart.

Rangers:No longer choose which of two bonus feats to take, they get all of them. Animal Companion now as strong as a Druid's. Favored enemy bonus now equal to Ranger Level. Spellcasting as a bard, but with spells from the druid list. Access to improved evasion. Access to the Plant and Animal Domains (But only the Plant and Animal domains)

Paladins:Smite Evil infinite times per day, automatically. They get the bonus every single time they attack something evil. Remove Disease becomes Remove Any Status Effect and is now Cha mod times per day. Lay on Hands=Pal level x Cha mod or Pal level squared or Charisma mod squared, whichever is highest. Immunity to disease now includes charm and compulsions (like pathfinder), poisons, curses (including cursed items), blindness, and paralysis. Spellcasting as a bard, but with spells from the cleric list. Access to the Law and Good domains (They don't have a choice in the matter, they can only have the Law and Good domains.) Paladins now have all mounted combat feats when on their special mount, also weapon focus, weapon spec, greater weapon focus, greater weapon spec, and improved critical with the lance when on bonded mount. Bonded mount automatically traded in for a very young gold dragon at level 16, upgrades to young at level 20, upgrades 1 age category every 4 levels thereafter (into epic levels)

Barbarians:Rage infinite times per day. Rage bonus to strength and con=Barbarian Level. Rage bonus to will saves=1/2 barbarian level. Rage penalty to AC disappears. Damage Reduction =1/2 Barbarian level/-.

Rogues:Gain all 'rogue special abilities' by level 20. Crippling strike now does rogue level in str damage. Capstone ability of skill mastery, all rogue class skills. Trapsense=rogue level.

Monks:Get all bonus feats, no more picking. Get Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Spec, and Improved Critical Fist automatically. Flurry becomes standard action. Flurry now useable when moving. 'Run By Flurry' (move to opponent, flurry, continue moving up to full movement) Upgraded to warrior BAB. Slow Fall becomes 'as feather fall' at the first level slow fall is gained. Stunning Fist now automatic on every attack. Abundant Step now useable at will. Quivering Palm now automatic on every attack (The monk chooses if he wants to kill people or not, but the option's always there if they fail the save.) Empty Body useable at will and gained earlier. Wholeness of Body now monk level squared.

All Mundane Classes:There is no 'int mod+x skills' anymore. Instead, they get all class skills at level+3 ranks. Yes, all of them.

[Doorhandle]

By class:
Fighters get all PHB feats as soon as they qualify for them. They can still purchase feats from other books at their usual rate. (They now have access to EVERY fighter trick, instead of just one. The also have access to all exotic weapons, and have weapon focus/specialization/greater/improved crit with EVERY weapon in the game. Does +2 to hit and +4 damage and Improved Crit with every weapon mean all that much in the greater scheme of things? Well, no, but it at least sets them apart.

Rangers:No longer choose which of two bonus feats to take, they get all of them. Animal Companion now as strong as a Druid's. Favored enemy bonus now equal to Ranger Level. Spellcasting as a bard, but with spells from the druid list. Access to improved evasion. Access to the Plant and Animal Domains (But only the Plant and Animal domains)

Paladins:Smite Evil infinite times per day, automatically. They get the bonus every single time they attack something evil. Remove Disease becomes Remove Any Status Effect and is now Cha mod times per day. Lay on Hands=Pal level x Cha mod or Pal level squared or Charisma mod squared, whichever is highest. Immunity to disease now includes charm and compulsions (like pathfinder), poisons, curses (including cursed items), blindness, and paralysis. Spellcasting as a bard, but with spells from the cleric list. Access to the Law and Good domains (They don't have a choice in the matter, they can only have the Law and Good domains.) Paladins now have all mounted combat feats when on their special mount, also weapon focus, weapon spec, greater weapon focus, greater weapon spec, and improved critical with the lance when on bonded mount. Bonded mount automatically traded in for a very young gold dragon at level 16, upgrades to young at level 20, upgrades 1 age category every 4 levels thereafter (into epic levels)

Barbarians:Rage infinite times per day. Rage bonus to strength and con=Barbarian Level. Rage bonus to will saves=1/2 barbarian level. Rage penalty to AC disappears. Damage Reduction =1/2 Barbarian level/-.

Rogues:Gain all 'rogue special abilities' by level 20. Crippling strike now does rogue level in str damage. Capstone ability of skill mastery, all rogue class skills. Trapsense=rogue level.

Monks:Get all bonus feats, no more picking. Get Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Spec, and Improved Critical Fist automatically. Flurry becomes standard action. Flurry now useable when moving. 'Run By Flurry' (move to opponent, flurry, continue moving up to full movement) Upgraded to warrior BAB. Slow Fall becomes 'as feather fall' at the first level slow fall is gained. Stunning Fist now automatic on every attack. Abundant Step now useable at will. Quivering Palm now automatic on every attack (The monk chooses if he wants to kill people or not, but the option's always there if they fail the save.) Empty Body useable at will and gained earlier. Wholeness of Body now monk level squared.

All Mundane Classes:There is no 'int mod+x skills' anymore. Instead, they get all class skills at level+3 ranks. Yes, all of them.

Well, While crazy overpowered is good in it's own right, I still don't think that's the best way to go about making things more fun.

I'm sort of with you on the fighter and the last point made: I figure everyone should et 4 ranks into every class skill at level one, and then gain skillpoints as normal from there.

Things I would suggest

*Immortal's handbook had "meta-combat mauvers", where you could take penalties on your attack rolls to make them have additional effects. Could be interesting.

*Barbarians should get pathfinder's strength-surge as a normal ability.

*Biggest piece of advice: Let people PUNCH MAGIC. No, seriously. fighters, should be able to pick up force-walls if they can reach their edges, or cut through them. Archers could snipe magical spells out of the air, a monk could catch a fireball and throw it back. If he hits an artery juuuuust-so, a rogue could know a druid out of his wildshape, and with a good enough grapple check, you can force a wizard to take you along for the ride when he teleports, or even stop him from doing so entirely. Things like that.

[Eldan]

Light weapons and special finesse weapons can use dexterity to hit automatically instead of strength. Weapon Finesse no longer exists as a feat.

[Angelalex242]

Well, the sad thing is, all of my fixes doesn't really make any of these guys the equal of a well optimized wizard/cleric/druid.

But I like to hope the big numbers the other classes now wield would come close to trying. Or at least shove T1 classes into a more utility roll, where their DPS is woefully inadequate.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To make mundane combat, you need to create player choices beyond "I hit him really hard. Again." Most of these fixes are simply same game with bigger numbers.
Believe me, I think most of us are aware of that, but you kind of have to deal with that on the class design side of things.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Whenever you score a melee critical with an appropriate weapon, have the option to trade the damage for a free trip, disarm, sunder, etc. attempt.

[Logic]

While not exactly an improvement for mundanes only, I have been toying with the idea that certain classes would have a "talent pool" of abilities.

Some classes, such as rangers, paladins, & monks would have multiple talent pools to draw from, but these talent pools could not be stacked to grant the same actions.

For example, fighters would have a "Discipline Pool" (which a lower value would be granted to Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers and Rogues) that would allow them to spend points from this daily pool to be able to do things such as bull rush, trip and make a full movement action that costs no standard or move action, or to grant the character a temporary damage reduction, add a miss chance to her defense or something similar.

Turn Undead, remove disease, lay on hands and smite might all fall under the Paladin's "Sacred Talents Pool"

[Eldan]

To make mundane combat, you need to create player choices beyond "I hit him really hard. Again." Most of these fixes are simply same game with bigger numbers.

Oh, absolutely. If I at any point sat down and wrote up an actual list of house rules I like into a sort of "D&D: Eldan Edition", I'd implement about half of what's been mentioned in this thread, in addition to replacing the mundanes with ToB classes.

[Seerow]

BAB gets added to initiative.

Choose the better of 10 and your BAB as your base AC.

Weapon Finesse is no longer a feat. Everyone can choose to use dex with a light/finessible weapon.

Unarmed strikes no longer take the penalty to hit or AoOs for use.

Two Weapon Fighting is now a proficiency, not a feat chain.

For every bonus attack you gain from BAB, you can make one additional AoO.

For every bonus attack you gain from BAB, you can choose to reduce your opponent's effective size category by 1 for any attack or effect you generate.

For every bonus attack you gain from BAB you gain one bonus fighter feat you can change each day.

Starting at BAB+11 you can choose to initiate any combat maneuver desired as a part of the attack (see: feats like Knockdown, Knockback. Or the Improved Grab ability)

Hitpoints are now 1d4 = 1d3+1, 1d6 = 1d3+2, 1d8 = 1d3+3, 1d10 = 1d3+5, 1d12 = 1d3+7.

[D-naras]

If you attack an opponent with an ordinary or extraordinary weapon or unarmed attack, regardless of a hit or a miss (not spells, spell-likes and supernatural abilities), you may spend a swift action to gain temporary hit-points equal to your BAB until the beginning of your next turn or double that amount if you use a small or large shield and triple that amount if you use a tower shield.

If you didn't use a spell, spell-like or supernatural ability this turn, you may, as an immediate action, move 5-ft after the first attack against you resolves.

[Seerow]

Some more:

Bonus to move speed equal to BAB round down to the nearest 5ft increment (so at BAB 1 it's 0, at BAB 19 it's 15, at BAB 20 it's 20).

Characters can spend a swift action to double their move speed bonus from BAB.

Characters can spend a swift action to move half that distance without a move action. (so at BAB10 a swift action turns into an extra 5ft step. At BAB20 it's 10ft as a swift action)

During a full attack, you can take a 5 ft step between each attack, not counting against your normal move speed.

Fighting defensively no longer requires penalty to hit, takes a swift action. Total defense is a swift+move action, but lets you use your standard action normally. Again, no penalties besides the actions.

Feinting is a swift action. Feinting is one of the combat maneuvers you can use as part of an attack at BAB11+

You can use an attack of opportunity to add half your BAB to a saving throw.

The DC for casting defensively is increased by the BAB of the threatening creature. (Base DC dropped to 10 from 15 to compensate)

As a part of a full attack, you can sacrifice a later attack to reroll miss chance on an earlier attack (so if you have +20/15/10/5, against a creature with miss chance if the first attack fails, give up the +5 attack to reroll your miss chance)

Precise Shot is now free for anyone with BAB+1 and a ranged weapon proficiency.

Precision damage now deals half damage rather than no damage to creatures normally immune to critical hits.

The max range for precision damage doubles for every 5 points of BAB (so 30' at 0, 60' at 5, 120' at 10, 240' at 15, 480' at 20)

Intelligence no longer provides bonus skill points.

Knowledge, Profession, Craft, and Perform are now categorized as background skills. Everybody gets 2+int mod background skills per level (in addition to normal skills) to invest in these skills.

Spot is now a class skill for all classes, characters gain a +2 synergy bonus to spot for every 5 points of BAB they possess.

All skill synergies now increase by 2 for every 5 additional skill ranks possessed.

All characters can choose 2 skills to add to their list of class skills for any classes they take at character creation.

Two handed weapons no longer gain 1.5x str to damage. Characters can now trade out 3 points of strength to damage to gain extra weapon damage dice. (so with a greatsword you can have 4d6 with 16str, 6d6 at 22str, 8d6 at 28 str, 10d6 at 34 str)

When bullrushing you can choose whether you want to move with the opponent, regardless of how far you push them.

[Draz74]

Allow melee attacks to hit flying targets with an appropriate Jump check (as part of the same action used to attack).

[Seerow]

For every bonus attack gained from BAB, you may ignore one feat-based prerequisite for any feat you take.

10 ranks of jump negates the need for a running start to jump.

12 ranks of Hide and Move Silently grants Darkstalker as a bonus feat.

You automatically have any skill trick your skills qualify you to pick up.

[Kane0]

Take out the drawbacks for alternate forms of attack, such as tripping and sundering.

Allow like a +2 conditional modifier to whatever roll if one is attempting something specific or improvised, such as throwing sand in your foe's face or aiming for their 'nads.

You don't have to change the rules much, just encourage the players to think up fun things to do themselves. The default response should be more 'yes, and' or 'yes, but' rather than 'no' but thats just general DM advice anyway.

Alternatively buff the Profession (DM) skill and raise the Rule of Cool feat's bonus from +2 to +4.

[Dienekes]

You see, I'm of the opinion that, disregarding the Tier system for at least a little bit, the problem with mundanes is that they don't have enough COOL ****! they can do. More than the whole system being imbalanced in favor of casters, as long as a class can do a lot of cool **** the player will at the very least be having a decent enough time.

But mundanes get cool **** in the form of feats: each of which have annoying prerequisites and you only get 7 of them. So the simplest way to get mundanes more cool **** would be to make newer awesome feats. And make the prerequisite to get those feats pretty simplistic. Maybe a minimum level, or minimum base attack bonus requirement, or skill rank, and one other feat tops.

But that's already a pretty vast overhaul of the system. So we have kind of a catch 22 thing going on.

As of now your list, while it's definitely an improvement, but still really doesn't give them a lot of cool ****. Just Combat Expertise for cheap really. Though the skill points are admittedly nice.

[The Troubadour]

Grant Power Attack, a ranged equivalent, and Combat Expertise as bonus feats whenever a character hits BAB +1. (Grod)

Perhaps a reverse Combat Expertise could be created? A Feat that allows you to reduce your AC by a certain amount and add said amount as bonus to your attack rolls for the whole round?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Perhaps a reverse Combat Expertise could be created? A Feat that allows you to reduce your AC by a certain amount and add said amount as bonus to your attack rolls for the whole round?
Sure. We can do all four, M&M-style:

-BAB from attack, +BAB to damage
-BAB from damage, +BAB to attack
-BAB from attack, +BAB to AC
-BAB from AC, +BAB to attack

You can do any one on any attack.

[The Troubadour]

Sure. We can do all four, M&M-style:

-BAB from attack, +BAB to damage
-BAB from damage, +BAB to attack
-BAB from attack, +BAB to AC
-BAB from AC, +BAB to attack

You can do any one on any attack.

Hm, I like it. But would it be possible to combine them? My gut instinct says "no", but I haven't really thought about it.

Also, is creating new Feats considered "low impact"?

[Dienekes]

Sure. We can do all four, M&M-style:

-BAB from attack, +BAB to damage
-BAB from damage, +BAB to attack
-BAB from attack, +BAB to AC
-BAB from AC, +BAB to attack

You can do any one on any attack.

The - to damage one is going to scale weird. Just for the record.

[erikun]

The 5-foot step is part of the attack and full attack actions, rather than an independent action in itself. A character cannot make a 5-foot step if they do something other than attack, such as with casting a spell. (Spell that involve an attack roll as part of casting do not allow a 5-foot step either.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hm, I like it. But would it be possible to combine them? My gut instinct says "no", but I haven't really thought about it.

Also, is creating new Feats considered "low impact"?
M&M allows you to do a 2 points without the "advantage," and 5 points with. (Which is pretty big, given how tight the numbers in that system scale). But to be honest, I don't see what's wrong with allowing the full "up to BAB" scaling for anyone. Gets rid of a few feat taxes and introduces a bit more strategic thinking...

[D-naras]

Sure. We can do all four, M&M-style:

-BAB from attack, +BAB to damage
-BAB from damage, +BAB to attack
-BAB from attack, +BAB to AC
-BAB from AC, +BAB to attack

You can do any one on any attack.

What if we change BAB to be this:

Combat Prowess: Instead of BAB characters gain Combat Prowess in the same way as they did before. Full BAB gain 1 per level and so on.

When characters roll initiative, they decide how to apply their Combat Prowess. They can allocate any amount from their total Combat Prowess on either: AC, Attack rolls, Damage Rolls, Temporary Hit Points. They gain a bonus to AC, Attack rolls and Damage rolls equal to the amount assigned to each and Temporary Hit points equal to twice the amount assigned until their next turn. After the first round of combat, at the beginning of a character's turn, that character can re-assign his Combat Prowess.

[The Troubadour]

How about this new combat maneuver:

Sure Strike: This maneuver can be used in conjunction with any attack, even as part of a Full Attack action. When Sure Strike is declared in conjunction with an attack, that attack is rolled as a melee touch attack, using the character's Dexterity modifier in place of his Strength modifier for the attack roll; however, the character can't add his Strength modifier to that attack's damage roll, nor can he use Power Attack with it.

[Eloel]

What if we change BAB to be this:

Combat Prowess: Instead of BAB characters gain Combat Prowess in the same way as they did before. Full BAB gain 1 per level and so on.

When characters roll initiative, they decide how to apply their Combat Prowess. They can allocate any amount from their total Combat Prowess on either: AC, Attack rolls, Damage Rolls, Temporary Hit Points. They gain a bonus to AC, Attack rolls and Damage rolls equal to the amount assigned to each and Temporary Hit points equal to twice the amount assigned until their next turn. After the first round of combat, at the beginning of a character's turn, that character can re-assign his Combat Prowess.
But then whichever assignment you make, you're still doing -Attack +Whatever, which we can already do (with feats) anyhow.

[D-naras]

But then whichever assignment you make, you're still doing -Attack +Whatever, which we can already do (with feats) anyhow.

And if you use this rule, you don't need feats to fight effectively and have interesting choices to make during combat! Hurray!

[Eloel]

And if you use this rule, you don't need feats to fight effectively and have interesting choices to make during combat! Hurray!

Indeed, but the point they were trying to make was to let there be a choice that gave +attack at cost of -AC or -damage, which your system does not capture.

[D-naras]

Indeed, but the point they were trying to make was to let there be a choice that gave +attack at cost of -AC or -damage, which your system does not capture.

Ok, I got what you are saying now. Yeah, my proposed system doesn't do that. Maybe add the option to act as flat-footed for +Dex prowess or something?

[The Troubadour]

Came up with some new maneuvers. These are meant to replace Power Attack, Combat Expertise and related Feats. I'm repeating Sure Strike for convenience's sake.

Sure Strike: This maneuver can be used in conjunction with any attack, even as part of a Full Attack action. When Sure Strike is declared in conjunction with an attack, that attack is rolled as a melee touch attack, using the character's Dexterity modifier in place of his Strength modifier for the attack roll; however, the character can't add his Strength modifier to that attack's damage roll, nor can he use Power Attack with it.

Heavy Strike: This maneuver can be used in conjunction with any attack, even as part of a Full Attack action. When Heavy Strike is declared in conjunction with an attack, the total result of that attack's damage roll (except from extra dice, such as Sneak Attack or a flaming weapon) is doubled (or tripled, or quadrupled, in the case of a critical hit or a charge, depending on the weapon); however, until the beginning of the character's next turn, he loses his shield bonus to AC (if any) and is considered flat-footed.

Overpowering Strike: This maneuver can be used in conjunction with any attack, even as part of a Full Attack action. When Overpowering Strike is declared in conjunction with an attack, the caracter suffers a penalty to his attack roll equal to the target's Strength modifier; if the attack is a successful hit, the target loses his shield bonus (if any) to AC and is considered flat-footed until the beginning of his next turn.