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warmachine
2007-01-24, 07:30 PM
OotS #405, and previous episodes, made me wonder whether Miko would keep her paladin powers if she destroyed Shojo. For this post, the broader question is what happens if a paladin places principle above legitimate authority, such as gathering ample evidence that some legitimate rulers are, indeed, corrupt and evil and destroying them? What are the guidelines for declaring authority unfit to rule?

The trouble is, the gods can rarely directly communicate with even their most trusted followers and communications with their church are far too slow. A holy warrior is a largely on his own and must rely on his own moral philosophy. Sooner or later, a genuinely good paladin will destroy an authority figure for good reason, refuse any power, fame or fortune and then lose his powers. Is there an appeals process? Do the gods listen to the moral arguments of their clerics and paladins?

headwarpage
2007-01-24, 07:33 PM
The DM, obviously.

And the Code is supposed to be a limiting factor. If you're a paladin and you don't want to accidentally fall, think first, then Smite. I think you can atone if you make a genuine mistake, though.

In my games, at least, you wouldn't fall for overthrowing a legitimately evil authority figure. But, in the case of "I thought he was evil, but he wasn't", then the paladin deserves to fall for running around smiting first and asking questions later.

Shisumo
2007-01-24, 07:34 PM
OotS #405, and previous episodes, made me wonder whether Miko would keep her paladin powers if she destroyed Shojo. For this post, the broader question is what happens if a paladin places principle above legitimate authority, such as gathering ample evidence that some legitimate rulers are, indeed, corrupt and evil and destroying them? What are the guidelines for declaring authority unfit to rule?

The trouble is, the gods can rarely directly communicate with even their most trusted followers and communications with their church are far too slow. A holy warrior is a largely on his own and must rely on his own moral philosophy. Sooner or later, a genuinely good paladin will destroy an authority figure for good reason, refuse any power, fame or fortune and then lose his powers. Is there an appeals process? Do the gods listen to the moral arguments of their clerics and paladins?

Destroying a corrupt, wicked, but legitimate authority is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic Good. As such, it's out of line for a paladin. The paladin's options for remedy are limited to Lawful ones, which is as aspect of their code just as surely as the Good is. Honestly, Miko's position is pretty much exactly the sort of place that a samurai ought to start thinking about how sharp her wakizashi is, and what she should write for her final haiku...

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 07:38 PM
It depends on setting--in Eberron, the Silver Flame church decides if you're holy or not, regardless of your true devotion to the flame.

Other'n that, it does go by DM.

Flabbicus
2007-01-24, 07:53 PM
Who judges the paladins?

The inevitables of course.


But I personally don't think she will attack him just yet. She will most likely claim that defending against the extremely evil lich and hobgoblin army storming the gates is more important and more of an immediate threat than a corrupt politician. Unless of course, she thinks Hinjo or O-chul or any other paladin is more capable and replaces Shijo with them, which I doubt she would do considering her not speaking out against him when he was acting senile.

Stormcrow
2007-01-24, 07:54 PM
Their god. Thats who judges a paladin, not authority, not kings nor emperors. They do their gods will. Many a good paladin lost his powers follow his superior who had strayed from the path.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-24, 07:55 PM
Destroying a corrupt, wicked, but legitimate authority is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic Good. As such, it's out of line for a paladin. The paladin's options for remedy are limited to Lawful ones, which is as aspect of their code just as surely as the Good is.

Actually, I read an excerpt from the Book of Exalted Deeds that explained quite well and quite convincingly that a paladin's allegiance was first to good, second to law. I'm not sure if I can find and post that, though....

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-24, 07:59 PM
Destroying a corrupt, wicked, but legitimate authority is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic Good. As such, it's out of line for a paladin. The paladin's options for remedy are limited to Lawful ones, which is as aspect of their code just as surely as the Good is. Honestly, Miko's position is pretty much exactly the sort of place that a samurai ought to start thinking about how sharp her wakizashi is, and what she should write for her final haiku...

...I do hope this is satire.

Paladins are Good first, and Lawful second.

Note that, for example, if a paladin commits an Evil act, or consorts with Evil creatures, he falls. Instantly. The same cannot be said for Chaotic acts or creatures.

Dark
2007-01-24, 08:10 PM
"The DM does it" is only true on one level. While it's possible for the DM to rule on this directly ("I, by the powers vested in me by WotC, declare your paladin Fallen!"), it makes more sense for the DM to role-play the authority who makes this decision. So that does raise the question of who that authority should be. It could be the paladin's god, or the paladin's church, or possibly even the paladin's own conscience. Perhaps paladins get their powers from their faith in their own righteousness, and they fall from doubt...

But I think it's best if the god decides. Role-playing the paladin's god also gives you a nice buffer against the heated arguments that might follow. Instead of a discussion about real-life ethics and how they might apply in D&D, you'd have a discussion about the god's nature and personality. And obviously the DM has final say on those. So instead of "I rule that what you did was evil", you have "I rule that your god no longer approves of you".

(And, I should note, I don't mean "Have the god rubber-stamp the DM's decision". Gods are immensely powerful, but they still have personalities and goals, and so they can be role-played.)

Sulecrist
2007-01-24, 08:10 PM
[quote=Shisumo;1886735]Destroying a corrupt, wicked, but legitimate authority is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic Good.quote]

Bold by me.

Isn't integrity a primary component of legitimacy? A corrupt government is by nature illegitimate, assuming social contract. And without social contract, would the Paladin be governed by it at all?

Ramza00
2007-01-24, 08:36 PM
The inevitables of course.


But I personally don't think she will attack him just yet. She will most likely claim that defending against the extremely evil lich and hobgoblin army storming the gates is more important and more of an immediate threat than a corrupt politician. Unless of course, she thinks Hinjo or O-chul or any other paladin is more capable and replaces Shijo with them, which I doubt she would do considering her not speaking out against him when he was acting senile.
I believe the plot progression is going to be, even if Miko doesn't do anything to Shijo, she will now have the "proof" that the OotS are evil, since she overheard the trial is a sham.

jjpickar
2007-01-24, 08:37 PM
I like the idea of the DM deciding in the context of the Paladin's god's agenda. After all, the Paladin casts divine spells, smites, and summons his mighty steed because his patron god grants these to him.

As for lawful alignment breaches, I usually prefer when I DM to let my Paladins be Neutral/Good. I would rather have them only wrestle with moral dilemma's than whether or not it's legal to enter the town sewer without a permit that has be presented in triplicate to the sub-lower-clerk of city waste management.

(Though, my favorite Paladins have to be the Paladins of Slaughter.):smallbiggrin:

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-24, 08:49 PM
I like to think of the Paladins of Tyranny as Judge Dredds. Judge, jury, executioner, eater of your immortal soul.

Jade_Tarem
2007-01-24, 08:51 PM
I would think Heironeous, god of paladins, or whatever the god of paladins is in X campaign (Paladine/Fizban in Dragonlance, for instance), would be the ultimate authority on the paladin code in-game. Metagame, though, it's the DM.

warmachine
2007-01-24, 08:52 PM
Destroying a corrupt, wicked, but legitimate authority is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic Good. As such, it's out of line for a paladin. The paladin's options for remedy are limited to Lawful ones, which is as aspect of their code just as surely as the Good is. Honestly, Miko's position is pretty much exactly the sort of place that a samurai ought to start thinking about how sharp her wakizashi is, and what she should write for her final haiku...
It can be argued that allowing a certainly evil and corrupt (or mad) person to remain in power is a dereliction of duty to decent people or the nation and abandonment of principles. Also, that the person has corrupted the law and the legitimate means of removing him is no excuse. One can have a duty to the nation, church and god as well as to the law. Such duties can conflict, such as stopping hostile nations acquiring powerful, magical items and leaders selling such items. If this happens, the paladin carefully gathers the facts, seeks trusted advice and judges in favour of the nation or church, can he say to his god "His law creates injustice, despair, poverty and all of the values you want stopped and I checked that it really was him. My duty to you dictates that I stop him!"

dungeon_munky
2007-01-24, 08:54 PM
For me, the paladin's lawfulness has always been the law of his god, rather than those of men, so knocking off the evil ruler of a country to protect countless lives is at the top of the paladin to do list. After all, Heironius would do the same thing.

I don't think that Shojo lying is enough to justify killing him, as he had best intentions at heart. As has been said, ask questions first, smite later.

RandomNPC
2007-01-24, 08:56 PM
when i have someone play a pally we talk about if something like this comes up, do they want to play law first type of pally, and get detect/smite chaos instead of evil, or stay as the book, and be a good first. they both still apply in all situations, but in a situation where its commit evil for the law or break a law for good, they have something to go on, but if its a major evil commited for a minor law, its still good bye powers.

Fireball.Man.Guy.
2007-01-24, 10:04 PM
Many a good paladin lost his powers follow his superior who had strayed from the path.

Bet you can't name 3.

Stormcrow
2007-01-24, 10:34 PM
Anyone who followed Arthas in Warcraft 3 :P

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-24, 11:05 PM
Anyone who followed Arthas in Warcraft 3 :P
*Ba-dum PISH*

Shisumo
2007-01-24, 11:52 PM
...I do hope this is satire.

Paladins are Good first, and Lawful second.

Note that, for example, if a paladin commits an Evil act, or consorts with Evil creatures, he falls. Instantly. The same cannot be said for Chaotic acts or creatures.

All true, but irrelevant. The paladin is both Good and Lawful. She cannot help anyone who will use her help for chaotic ends, even if those ends are good (also RAW). Relative weighting between the aspects of her alignment is beside the point here - she has to remain both.

A paladin who discovers evil in the heart of a legitimate authority has exactly two options: 1) attempt to work within the framework of the law to expose the evil and allow the consequences of that evil to reap the legal punishment, or 2) withdraw from that authority and find another one that will authorize a more direct action. (Well, there's an option 3, which is suicide, but that's rare in PCs, especially outside L5R games, and an option 4, which is stop being a paladin, but that's really unexciting.)

Seriously, this is the kind of dilemma that is the meat and drink of samurai drama - it's also around in places like modern legal fiction (anyone remember The Firm?) and superhero comics. The choices are pretty straightforward... what happens next depends mostly on the cleverness of the character and/or her player, but are definitely worth watching.

Hallavast
2007-01-25, 12:11 AM
The text book course of action for a Paladin in Miko's situation would be to formally bring Shojo up on charges. If found guilty, Shojo would be removed from a position of power, and Hinjo would likely succede him (assuming he's next in the hereditary line). Then she would do the same to the Oots. It's perfectly Paladin safe.

Mike_G
2007-01-25, 12:18 AM
Me.

I judge them.

Harshly.

Shisumo
2007-01-25, 12:19 AM
The text book course of action for a Paladin in Miko's situation would be to formally bring Shojo up on charges. If found guilty, Shojo would be removed from a position of power, and Hinjo would likely succede him (assuming he's next in the hereditary line). Then she would do the same to the Oots. It's perfectly Paladin safe.

:nod: Bingo.

Winged One
2007-01-25, 12:39 AM
All true, but irrelevant. The paladin is both Good and Lawful. She cannot help anyone who will use her help for chaotic ends, even if those ends are good (also RAW). Relative weighting between the aspects of her alignment is beside the point here - she has to remain both.

Actually, a paladin just isn't required to help somebody who's going to use it for chaotic or evil ends, by a strict interpritation of RAW.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-25, 12:55 AM
Okay, relevant excerpt from the Book of Exalted Deeds (It's an EXCERPT. Out of a BOOK. I'm not revealing mechanics or anything, people do this sort of thing with books all the time, and the rules don't seem to forbid it).

However, if this is a problem, let me know and I'll certainly take it down.


For better or for worse, a paladin is not just good: she is lawful good, sworn not just to uphold the principles of good but also bound by a code of conduct, and subject to local law as well. Many paladins are also members of a specific deity's church, a knightly order of some sort, or both. At the best of times, these various loyalties - her code of conduct, her church's laws, her order's demands, the laws of her nation, and the abstraction of her alignment - are all in harmony, and her path is clear before her. When circumstances are not so ideal, she finds herself torn between conflicting demands: her superior in her knightly order commands her to kill a brutal murderer who has escaped punishment in court on a legal technicality, for example. Her personal code requires that she punish those that harm innocents, and this killer certainly falls in that category. However, her personal code also instructs her to respect legitimate authority, which includes both her knightly superior and the local law that has let the killer go free. The demands of her good alignment suggest she should punish the wrongdoer, but the demands of her lawful alignment insist that she obey the judgment of the court. It is entirely possible that either her superior or the magistrate in the case is corrupt or even possessed. Whom does she obey? How does she sort out the conflicting demands of her loyalties?

Here's the kicker:

Paladins are by no means alone in this situation. Any character who tries consistently to do good eventually finds himself in a situation where different loyalties are in conflict. Chaotic good characters might care far less about a potentially corrupt or at least ineffectual court system, but they might have other personal standards or obligations that cause conflict in similar or different situations. In the end, however, many such conflicts boil down to a question of priorities, and for a character who aspires to exalted deeds, good is the highest priority. In the example above, the murderer must at least be captured, if not killed, before he can kill again. If she has reason to suspect corruption, either in the court or in her own order, the paladin must attempt to uncover it, though it might mean being cast out of her order, punished under local law, or both. Her paladinhood and her exalted status remain intact, since she acted in the cause of good even when that required questioning the legitimacy of authority. Magistrates or knightly superiors who serve the cause of evil while posing as agents of good are not legitimate authority, and the paladin is right for exposing their corruption.

Read it. Seriously. It's quite relevant.

Shisumo
2007-01-25, 12:58 AM
Actually, a paladin just isn't required to help somebody who's going to use it for chaotic or evil ends, by a strict interpritation of RAW.

By the most literal interpretation, I suppose you're right. That's not how I read it, but it's not clear how much weight the "provided" is supposed to carry. Regardless, the rest of the post stands. Among other things, as directly relevant to this discussion, the phrase "respect legitimate authority" appears in the paladin's code, which pretty much rules out attempting to assassinate your duly appointed boss, no matter how evil he is.

Diggorian
2007-01-25, 01:00 AM
One of my best rping experiences was smiting a king (but he was ask'in for it, read here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1873092&postcount=18) ). The DM playing their god judges them according to their code and the deity's dogma.

WWMD (What will Miko do?); I dunno. Many PC's would charge Shojo and two handed smite. Smart pally's would detect evil first, then try to arrest him. Brilliant PC's would seek the support of usually opposed community leaders -- say the church and merchant league -- in order to call for a vote of confidence.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-25, 01:06 AM
And the smartest PC's of all instead blackmail him for a hefty bounty.

Diggorian
2007-01-25, 01:10 AM
And the smartest PC's of all instead blackmail him for a hefty bounty.

If neutral, heck yeah! :smallbiggrin:

But I think we're talking pally, pally. :smallamused:

Shisumo
2007-01-25, 01:13 AM
Read it. Seriously. It's quite relevant.

(Reads)

...Nope. Can't agree. That's a Neutral Good description with lawful tendencies. It's relevant to an Exalted Deeds game because the Exalted game places heavy emphasis on the Good/Evil axis, but I don't think it's generally applicable. It's also a bit simplified, and the simplifications exaggerate the conflict in ways that the real-world situation would not.

In the example described, for instance, the paladin should know whether the code of his order* places the order's authority over that of the local law. He would also know whether a lethal sentence is within the bounds of his order's code. If the order he is given is in violation of the code, then the appropriate response is to ignore the order and report it to the relevant higher authority. If there is no higher authority, but the code of the paladin's order cannot be superseded by its highest ranking member, then the paladin simply ignores the order. In either case, he follows the highest-priority relevant law.

If the order's code does specify that it has the authority to supersede local law (and that, for whatever reason, the order and specifically the paladin's superior have the authority to condemn a man to death under the present circumstances) then the paladin goes out and smites the living hell out of the scumbag, and everybody's happy.

If not, then the paladin does everything he can to keep a very close eye on the killer in order to prevent a future murder and find a legal way to keep him off the streets again.

* I use "order" here to refer to whatever organization holds the paladin's highest loyalties. If he's not part of an organization, then most of the time these little pickles don't come up.

Gralamin
2007-01-25, 01:33 AM
Okay, relevant excerpt from the Book of Exalted Deeds (It's an EXCERPT. Out of a BOOK. I'm not revealing mechanics or anything, people do this sort of thing with books all the time, and the rules don't seem to forbid it).

However, if this is a problem, let me know and I'll certainly take it down.


Here's the kicker:


Read it. Seriously. It's quite relevant.

Theres one Little Problem here.


Paladins are by no means alone in this situation. Any character who tries consistently to do good eventually finds himself in a situation where different loyalties are in conflict. Chaotic good characters might care far less about a potentially corrupt or at least ineffectual court system, but they might have other personal standards or obligations that cause conflict in similar or different situations. In the end, however, many such conflicts boil down to a question of priorities, and for a character who aspires to exalted deeds, good is the highest priority. In the example above, the murderer must at least be captured, if not killed, before he can kill again. If she has reason to suspect corruption, either in the court or in her own order, the paladin must attempt to uncover it, though it might mean being cast out of her order, punished under local law, or both. Her paladinhood and her exalted status remain intact, since she acted in the cause of good even when that required questioning the legitimacy of authority. Magistrates or knightly superiors who serve the cause of evil while posing as agents of good are not legitimate authority, and the paladin is right for exposing their corruption.
Same thing you Quoted, Notice what I bolded. Your quote only Works if this Paladin is Trying to become Exalted.

Dervag
2007-01-25, 01:57 AM
In my games, at least, you wouldn't fall for overthrowing a legitimately evil authority figure. But, in the case of "I thought he was evil, but he wasn't", then the paladin deserves to fall for running around smiting first and asking questions later.Or, more probably "I thought he was evil and that I had a right to kill him, but I didn't."

Paladins are unlikely to make mistakes about whether a creature is evil (as per alignment). But they can definitely make mistakes about whether or not a given evil creature should die.

As for "Who judges paladins?" I would say that paladins are either judged by some powerful lawful good entity such as a deity or that deity's subordinate celestials...
or that paladins aren't "judged" as such and that their fall from a state of grace is a natural force rather than being something that someone has to decide to do to them.


Honestly, Miko's position is pretty much exactly the sort of place that a samurai ought to start thinking about how sharp her wakizashi is, and what she should write for her final haiku...Actually, that's probably true assuming that 'Southern' samurai of the OotS world are like historical samurai in that regard. She has just discovered that her lord is a dishonorable man and that he has persistently lied to and manipulated her and her compatriots, in a way that led to the death of some of those compatriots at Belkar's hands, for the express purpose of getting around the oath that her order holds sacred.


As for lawful alignment breaches, I usually prefer when I DM to let my Paladins be Neutral/Good. I would rather have them only wrestle with moral dilemma's than whether or not it's legal to enter the town sewer without a permit that has be presented in triplicate to the sub-lower-clerk of city waste management.A lawful person doesn't have to act like that. Most lawful people are not complete idiots, nor are they as hidebound as the above example implies.

I would say that a paladin is tightly restricted with respect to the good/evil axis (she can't commit any significantly evil act without serious repercussions), but that a paladin is relatively loosely restricted with respect to the law/chaos axis (a paladin may well charge into the sewers to pursue the assassin without going and filling out the proper paperwork first).


The text book course of action for a Paladin in Miko's situation would be to formally bring Shojo up on charges.How?

Sapphire city isn't a constitutional monarchy or a democracy. Lord Shojo is the highest legal authority in town. There's no place to put him on trial to except possibly by appeal to divine intervention.


Your quote only Works if this Paladin is Trying to become ExaltedOr if the paladin is simply behaving as a candidate for exaltedness would behave (as almost any paladin would). In character, paladins do that which is good because it is right, not because they are trying to gain access to exalted feats.

Adlan
2007-01-25, 09:01 AM
I'm thinking she does like a dwarven slaver does, dyes her hair red, shaves it to a mohawk, and charges stark naked into the middle of xycons army, hoping for an honourable death.

headwarpage
2007-01-25, 09:39 AM
Yes, Dervag, that's pretty much what I meant. Not all evil people can be killed without falling, and not all people who can be killed without falling are evil.

And my original answer was somewhat flippant. In-game, it's generally the paladin's god - as roleplayed by the DM. As for the specifics of lawful vs. good, I think it depends on the Code of the individual paladin. As a DM, if you know you're going to be throwing stuff like that into the game, you should sit down with the paladin's player and hammer out exactly what the Code consists of. If the game isn't going to include a lot of moral dilemmas, or if the DM is planning to be lenient, that may not be necessary.

To my mind, the paladin's Code consists of two things: an unwritten compact between the paladin and his god, and a set of oaths that the paladin swears upon becoming a paladin - which are usually articulations of the compact between the paladin and the god, but may include other things. In the OotS example, if Miko's Code consists primarily of serving the ideals of the 12 gods, she could overthrow Shojo (if he actually deserved it) without falling. But if her Code explicitly stated loyalty and obedience to the commander of the Sapphire Guard, she might fall for overthrowing him, no matter how corrupt he was.

Which raises an interesting point - who here has voluntarily done something to cause their paladin to fall? I'm not talking about intentionally falling to become a blackguard, but rather a situation where the greater good required the paladin to violate their Code, knowing that they would lose their god's favor, but believing that what they were trying to accomplish was more important than themselves.

Spartan_Samuel
2007-01-25, 09:48 AM
As it was said before, the Paladins follow their God's will first, and then their Emporer's law second. Basically Good first, Law second.

Personally, I think it was all a sham. The entire 'reveal all of the skeletons in my closet to someone who never wanted nor needed to hear it' session was staged. They knew Miko was listening, and they know she's out for revenge (of course hiding within the confines of her lawful god's will) against the OotS crew. But again, as it was said before, she has no real proof except what can be perfectly described in court as Heresay.

warmachine
2007-01-25, 10:11 AM
The text book course of action for a Paladin in Miko's situation would be to formally bring Shojo up on charges.
How?

Sapphire city isn't a constitutional monarchy or a democracy. Lord Shojo is the highest legal authority in town. There's no place to put him on trial to except possibly by appeal to divine intervention.

This is a key part of my question. The law can be perverted to create gross injustice, poverty and all the other values the paladin believes he must oppose. There can be a conflict between good and law but no way to legally fix the law.

Worse, though divine intervention is a higher authority, the gods can rarely get directly involved. The purpose of clerics and paladins is to wield divine power on the god's behalf. The paladin IS the divine intervention. Also, as gods can rarely convey their direct decisions, the cleric or paladin must make decisions on his behalf. The paladin IS the divine judgement. The god is only able to audit his agents, not command or direct them. The paladin stops the corrupt leader on his own initiative or it doesn't get done.

Can the paladin argue with his judge?

Saph
2007-01-25, 10:54 AM
In the example described, for instance, the paladin should know whether the code of his order* places the order's authority over that of the local law. He would also know whether a lethal sentence is within the bounds of his order's code. If the order he is given is in violation of the code, then the appropriate response is to ignore the order and report it to the relevant higher authority. If there is no higher authority, but the code of the paladin's order cannot be superseded by its highest ranking member, then the paladin simply ignores the order. In either case, he follows the highest-priority relevant law.

This sounds like Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good. If Shazzbaa was putting too much emphasis on the 'good', you're putting too much emphasis on the 'lawful'.

Paladins must uphold Law AND Good. They're not allowed to pick one or the other. They have to do all they can for both. If they're in a situation where following the law means committing an evil act, then the paladin's duty is to find an alternative, even if this doesn't seem possible at first sight.

Also, remember that a paladin isn't necessarily a Japanese samurai. Suicide does not have to be her default response.

- Saph

elliott20
2007-01-25, 11:46 AM
I think, in a world of relative morals, trying to argue the strict ethics of one action is a pretty difficult one. It's for this reason that using the "ask your God" response is in my opinion the best one. Within each society, lawful and good can be defined very differently. However, one thing for sure is that it will inexplicably be tied to one particular diety.

It also saves a lot of time that the player will be spending waxing rhetorics with his GM.

Diggorian
2007-01-25, 12:45 PM
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

To me, this looks like Good prioritized over Lawful. Paladins can jay walk, trespass, and even question authority (which can be done in a respectful maner) if it serves good to do so. As I think the ultimate judge of a pally is their god, they cant really argue cause it's one-sided.

A cheap solution, a plane shift could let'em do it though :smallamused: I've had lesser DMs intro a story arch every time by having my paladin's god manifesting in the flesh, identifying himself, then grappling him with a +8 holy axiomatic plot hook of railroading. Hated these cause it took the faith out of my religious character.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-25, 12:55 PM
...Paladins aren't heralded and celebrated because they follow the rules reall well.
They're heralded and celebrated because they SAVE THE SODDING WORLD FROM DARKNESS. A lot.
I can't see where someone would really see otherwise in terms of flavor, or intent from Wizards.

Fawsto
2007-01-25, 01:47 PM
I'd say that above Lords or Gods what is always checking the Paladin's acts is his own definition of right and wrong that he develops in the begining of his career (lvl 1). I like to think that those vows on Player's Handbook are merely examples of the way of the Paladin (They are mostly correct, but some times there are statements there that won't make the Paladin do any good), and the Player will discuss the definitions of good and law with the DM. Example: I like to play Paladins like this:

.My Paladins are altruists: They like to save and help people, besides that, they put their lifes in the line for them.
.My Paladins are Merciful and Respect Life: They will never end an enemy life if he has the option to keep his life (for apropriate trial).
.My Paladins are not violent persons: Even if someone desires to fight a paladin he will try to talk first.
.My Paladins are brave: They have no fear when it comes to risking his life for a good cause.
.My Paladins are Honored: They will never steal, disrespect authorities or tell lies that geopardize other people, thus he knows that a minor lie is capable of saving hundreads of lifes, also he can keep a secret

See these would be the proposals of my code when I first talk to the DM. Even if the DM is the one who tells if I lose or not my Paladinhood, it would be under my terms (whose I think are completely plausible). Notes to remember: Not all the Paladins serve a lord. Not all the Paladins serve even a deity. Law changes from Place to Place (shades of gray).

The DM will always know, under these proposals, if I am doing something that is against my codeline.

Got it? :smallsmile:

Caelestion
2007-01-25, 02:01 PM
To me, this looks like Good prioritized over Lawful. Paladins can jay walk, trespass, and even question authority (which can be done in a respectful maner) if it serves good to do so. As I think the ultimate judge of a pally is their god, they cant really argue cause it's one-sided.
Not that "jaywalking" is even a crime in this country, but surely just because paladins serve Good over Law doesn't mean that they blatantly trespass or break minor laws simply for the greater good. That's called Neutral Good generally.

clarkvalentine
2007-01-25, 02:06 PM
At my table, the paladin's player judges the paladin.

Of course, my players are trustworthy and don't abuse that sort of power.

belboz
2007-01-25, 02:11 PM
Since, really, it is the GM (or their Divine NPCs) who make the decision, I can only tell you how *I'd* rule.

1) So long as one's leader is acting for good and/or law, and *not* acting for evil and/or chaos, they must be obeyed--this is part of the Paladin Code.
2) If the Paladin Code requires an evil or highly chaotic act, morals and ethics take precedence over the code itself. Any LG-god-approved Paladin Code in my campaign would explicitly include a clause to this effect, so it wouldn't even count as oath-breaking.
3) A paladin, in disobeying or (especially) deposing of a corrupt leader, must still follow certain rules. A CG character can shoot the bad guy from in the bushes; a LG character should hesitate, and this would be *very* bad for the paladin. If the leader cannot be pressured to step down through diplomatic means, and forming a schism from the original organization is not feasible (in which case, if the original organization is actively evil, it can be attacked as an evil organization), the most honorable way to handle this situation would be a formal and public accusation, followed by a challenge to single combat.

A Divination or Commune spell, if one is available (e.g. through the paladin's trusted spiritual advisor), is strongly recommended by trying this stuff. For Commune, a deity of course has a 100% chance of knowing his/her own attitude about paladin behavior.

Actually, as someone pointed out earlier, Miko may be in a bit more of a bind than a typical campaign's Paladin. Depending on the Samurai code of Azure City, and how the populace feels about it, she might face great disgrace if she disobeys her lord without committing suicide afterwards. But even in this case, I wouldn't rule that she'd permanently fall just because of that (although she might need an Atonement for oath-breaking--because of the samurai oath, not the paladin oath), just that she'd be a social outcast and possibly a wanted criminal.

headwarpage
2007-01-25, 02:21 PM
Not that "jaywalking" is even a crime in this country, but surely just because paladins serve Good over Law doesn't mean that they blatantly trespass or break minor laws simply for the greater good. That's called Neutral Good generally.

Lawful doesn't necessarily mean that a character follows every law in the world, though. It also describes a certain type of disciplined, ordered personality. And the paladin in particular could be far more concerned with the absolute laws of his god than the more ephemeral rules that men make.

The paladin has three basic requirements: commit no evil act, follow your Code, and maintain a LG alignment. Note that it doesn't prohibit individual chaotic acts, just an actual alignment change. A LG character can do any number of small chaotic things, and doesn't need to follow every law to the letter. Witness Roy pretending to be the King of Nowhere. It's not Lawful, and it's not Good, but I don't see anybody (well, not too many people) suggesting he should no longer be considered LG because of it. That's not to say a paladin should be able to do things like that, it's just an example of how much the LG alignment actually allows.

I'd expect that in 99% of cases, you'd run afoul of the Code long before you did enough non-Lawful things to warrant an alignment change. So again, it all comes down to what's in that poorly-defined Paladin's Code. And if the DM is going to make an issue of it, the player and DM need to sit down beforehand and hash out exactly what that Code says.

clarkvalentine
2007-01-25, 02:29 PM
And if the DM is going to make an issue of it, the player and DM need to sit down beforehand and hash out exactly what that Code says.


This is why I generally leave it up to the player - it's exactly as much of an issue as they want it to be, in that case. As a DM I tend to take my cues from the players.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-25, 02:59 PM
Same thing you Quoted, Notice what I bolded. Your quote only Works if this Paladin is Trying to become Exalted.

Ahh, sorry, that wasn't my quote -- I copied that excerpt from a friend's journal, his bold copied over for some reason. But yes, I see what you've pointed out.

I guess I just look at paladins differently, then. I always saw the Exalted view of paladins as being what a paladin should, in theory, aspire to. It seems weird to me that it would be wrong for a normal paladin to put Good before Law, but right for an Exalted paladin to do so. I would think an Exalted paladin would be the epitome of what a paladin, in the D&D worldview, should be.

Now naturally it's probably fun to play an overly-zealous, or Miko-style, or bad-cop paladin, but all of those are corruptions of the paladin ideal... and I'd always seen the Exalted paladin (as defined in the excerpt I posted) as being that ideal.

I guess it doesn't matter much; in the end things like this are up to the DM, and I'm fortunate enough to have a DM I agree with. :smalltongue:

Diggorian
2007-01-25, 03:03 PM
Thank you headwarpage for saving me from typing of exactly that point you made well. :smallbiggrin:

I generally leave the code as is, vague, with some flavor for the individual god. Paladins of Heironeous (LG) are a bit less disciplined than those of St. Cuthbert (LN), but more so than those of Pelor (NG) in my games. All are LG though. Cuthbertans see order as the way to accomplish good. Pelorians are lawfully devoted to the tenants of goodness from their patron.

Diggorian
2007-01-25, 03:30 PM
Now naturally it's probably fun to play an overly-zealous, or Miko-style, or bad-cop paladin, but all of those are corruptions of the paladin ideal... and I'd always seen the Exalted paladin (as defined in the excerpt I posted) as being that ideal.

I know what you mean. Though I encourage a little variation in paladins, I cant get behind the variants like Paladin's of Freedom, Slaughter, or Tyranny. Each seem oxymoronic.

If a player really wanted to play these I'd re-name them someting like: Avenger of Trithereon, Erythnul's Destroyer, and Hextorian Enforcer.

Caelestion
2007-01-25, 03:39 PM
I call them Liberator (CG), Infernal (LE) and Havok (CE). *shrug*

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-25, 04:01 PM
Good over law for a regular paladin, always. My proof? They get Detect Evil and Smite Evil, not Detect Chaos and Smite Chaos. Clearly, the whole class is skewed more towards fighting evil.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-25, 04:06 PM
On the specific instance: I agree with the people who say "arrest him" for this specific instance. Of course, we don't know much about Azure City's legal system, but it seems entirely reasonable that the man could be brought up on charges based on his revelations, as heard by two legitimate law enforcement officers.

Of course, it doesn't work like that in America, since it's hearsay evidence and you're not allowed to take verbal statements as evidence before informing the suspect of his Miranda Rights. But this is an at least somewhat autocratic medieval state. I doubt laws are that specific there. And even in America, that would be enough to start an investigation to turn up useable evidence.

I'll talk about the general justification later, but this question boils down to qui custodiet ipsos custodes?

Caelestion
2007-01-25, 04:10 PM
"Who polices the policemen?" :)

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-25, 04:14 PM
Easy.

Batman.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-25, 04:21 PM
So we get a powerful Wizard...

clarkvalentine
2007-01-25, 04:24 PM
Of course, it doesn't work like that in America, since it's hearsay evidence and you're not allowed to take verbal statements as evidence before informing the suspect of his Miranda Rights.

If the suspect hasn't been arrested, anything the suspect says is fair game.

SadiraWhitethorne
2007-01-25, 04:24 PM
a paladin who acts against thier alignment or gods wishes is usually stripped of thier paladin abilities becoming a fighter without the extra feats

Fax Celestis
2007-01-25, 04:26 PM
...Paladins aren't heralded and celebrated because they follow the rules reall well.
They're heralded and celebrated because they SAVE THE SODDING WORLD FROM DARKNESS. A lot.
I can't see where someone would really see otherwise in terms of flavor, or intent from Wizards.

You wouldn't happen to look like a certain platinum blond vampire from a popular TV show created by Joss Whedon, would you? Because you certainly sound like one.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-25, 04:30 PM
Me.

I judge them.

Harshly.
Well then it's an excellent thing that you're not any sort of authority. :smallbiggrin:

Theres one Little Problem here.


Same thing you Quoted, Notice what I bolded. Your quote only Works if this Paladin is Trying to become Exalted.
He's a paladin. If he isn't striving to serve Good every waking moment of his life, why did he take up that mantle?

Dervag
2007-01-25, 04:37 PM
Personally, I think it was all a sham. The entire 'reveal all of the skeletons in my closet to someone who never wanted nor needed to hear it' session was staged. They knew Miko was listening, and they know she's out for revenge (of course hiding within the confines of her lawful god's will) against the OotS crew. But again, as it was said before, she has no real proof except what can be perfectly described in court as Heresay.Except that more than one paladin heard it, and that paladins can be the target of lie-detector spells.


Also, remember that a paladin isn't necessarily a Japanese samurai. Suicide does not have to be her default response. - SaphYou are absolutely right, a paladin is not necessarily a samurai and, in fact, usually isn't. However, Miko is a samurai as well as being a paladin, so her reactions will generally reflect an overlay of samurai custom onto paladin codes.

In the same way, a paladin who is also a Western-style knight might well have their own chivalric customs that overlay onto the paladin code, such as disdaining to use projectile weapons.


I think, in a world of relative morals, trying to argue the strict ethics of one action is a pretty difficult one.The entire paladin class is based on the assumption of nonrelative morality, as are many other parts of D&D. If there is no way to define 'good' or 'lawful' independently of the observer, then how do you explain the workings of a spell like 'Protection from law'?


Not that "jaywalking" is even a crime in this country, but surely just because paladins serve Good over Law doesn't mean that they blatantly trespass or break minor laws simply for the greater good. That's called Neutral Good generally.It is possible to be Lawful Good without being absolutely lawful. A paladin is not an inevitable. Paladins are customarily associated more closely with good than with law. They are lawful because they are disciplined and because they respect laws, but major goods take priority over minor laws.


On the specific instance: I agree with the people who say "arrest him" for this specific instance. Of course, we don't know much about Azure City's legal system, but it seems entirely reasonable that the man could be brought up on charges based on his revelations, as heard by two legitimate law enforcement officers.That depends. In historical societies like those of Azure City, the ruler was not subject to a trial because he was the focus of the law. The entire legal system was based on the ruler's authority and on the delegation thereof. You could no more put a king on trial than a modern American court could declare the Constitution to be null and void.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-25, 04:40 PM
You wouldn't happen to look like a certain platinum blond vampire from a popular TV show created by Joss Whedon, would you? Because you certainly sound like one.
With that LA? Hell no.

Mike_G
2007-01-25, 05:25 PM
Well then it's an excellent thing that you're not any sort of authority. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, it's too bad.

Paldins should be judged harshly, and held to a higher standard. Their pure espousal of the ideals of Lawful Goodness that has caused them to be chosen as the earthly hand of their deity should result in much more strict standards for behavior than that of a different PC who happens to be LG.

I've played in too many games with "Smite 'em all and let Pelor sort 'em out" types, where my freaking CN Rogue had to be the voice of mercy and restraint, to have anything but contempt for a "Judge Dread" type Paladin.



He's a paladin. If he isn't striving to serve Good every waking moment of his life, why did he take up that mantle?

Exactly.

Yes, it's convenient to kill anything that pings Evil, but a Paladin should go the extra mile to be sure than any destruction of sapient life is justified, and measured, and the best of bad options.

Orther than that, just be a Fighter with an LG alignment if you don't want to actually work at it.

Shisumo
2007-01-25, 10:26 PM
This sounds like Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good. If Shazzbaa was putting too much emphasis on the 'good', you're putting too much emphasis on the 'lawful'.
That's 'cause you quoted the lawful part. The "good" part was the section that came next, where I said, "No matter what, the paladin does everything he can to make sure the murderer is stopped."


Paladins must uphold Law AND Good. They're not allowed to pick one or the other. They have to do all they can for both. If they're in a situation where following the law means committing an evil act, then the paladin's duty is to find an alternative, even if this doesn't seem possible at first sight.
I absolutely agree. I would furthermore add that there is a reason why atonement exists, and it is not limited to helms of opposite alignment. Sometimes, you get stuck in a quandary, you grit your teeth and choose, you violate your code, you do penance and atone, and you go on.


Also, remember that a paladin isn't necessarily a Japanese samurai. Suicide does not have to be her default response.

As was pointed out elsewhere, I was speaking specfically of Miko, who is a samurai (though not, admittedly, a Japanese one).

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 09:51 AM
Well, even if paladins never lie and can be tested for untruths, the best a truthful statement will register is that the speaker believes they are telling the truth.

Fatty Maroon
2007-01-26, 11:30 AM
I am actually having a dillema with this now, our party is supposed to kill/ remove from power an evil man who has lawful fontrol over a town, yet he is very much so evil. But everyone knows he is evil and theres nothing they can do about it. I have no idea on how to gert him out of power lawfully now.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-26, 11:40 AM
He's an illegitimate authority. Waste him.

Caelestion
2007-01-26, 12:12 PM
So you define illegitimate as someone you disagree with or who doesn't bother with being good-aligned? I wouldn't have thought "illegitimate" could be so much fun...

Wolf53226
2007-01-26, 12:18 PM
Must agree with Caelestion here, just because he is evil, doesn't mean he's an illegitimate ruler.

Telonius
2007-01-26, 12:28 PM
Apparently our dear Giant is about to answer the question.

FdL
2007-01-26, 12:52 PM
I would think Heironeous, god of paladins, or whatever the god of paladins is in X campaign (Paladine/Fizban in Dragonlance, for instance), would be the ultimate authority on the paladin code in-game. Metagame, though, it's the DM.

Horrible spoiler there :(

Regarding the topic, I think it's ultimately up the her god to judge Miko. But as I see the situation now, this will definitely lead to her losing her powers and maybe to become a fallen paladin. Which would only be natural, for the Order to have a new enemy (seeing that no one likes her).

jjpickar
2007-01-26, 12:59 PM
Wasting evil is fun.:smallbiggrin: Trying to figure out if it's right to waste evil is horribly boring. Why do I play D&D? To have fun. Dr. Seuss said fun is good. Therefore wasting evil is both fun and good.

I know moral and ethical dilemmas are the meat and drink of role playing. But quite frankly, I would much rather be playing an FPS if they crop up in a game I'm playing.

That's why I like the Chaotic/Evil alignment best. You can kill and destroy whatever you want and you can let those Paladins just try and stop you.:smallbiggrin: Oddly enough, I like to kill Paladins in D&D.

Diggorian
2007-01-26, 01:41 PM
I am actually having a dillema with this now, our party is supposed to kill/ remove from power an evil man who has lawful fontrol over a town, yet he is very much so evil. But everyone knows he is evil and theres nothing they can do about it. I have no idea on how to gert him out of power lawfully now.

This an especially salient problem nowadays as we see one good intentioned global power dealing with the results of ousting an evil regime.

Given that I agree that paladins should uphold good first, were my PC pally in such a situation they'd try to get the evil ruler to undue his harmful rulings. If he refuses, I'd then offer him a chance to surrender his authority to one more aligned with the peoples needs. If he refuses this, then I'd resort to violence to remove him form power.

It's overlooked in many D&D games that good seeks killing as a last resort. I'm more of a Hinjoan than a Mikonite :smallamused:

Divides
2007-01-26, 02:17 PM
...I do hope this is satire.

Paladins are Good first, and Lawful second.

Note that, for example, if a paladin commits an Evil act, or consorts with Evil creatures, he falls. Instantly. The same cannot be said for Chaotic acts or creatures.

Their class features also reflect this. For example, if a paladin was as lawful as they were good, they'd be getting "smite evil OR chaos," not simply "smite evil."

Also, IMHO, not all types of lawful automatically submit to the all authority. Law is as much about consistency/discipline as it is about obediance... there are many monk archetypes that demonstrate this :-p. Now, in my experience paladins usually DO pledge their allegiance to the principals of one organization or another... but it's (usually) the principal's, and not STRICTLY the leader, who they obay.

Of course, I personally feel kinda like Miko is about 1 step from slipping from LG to LN and losing her class features, anyway... but maybe that's just me :-p.



Isn't integrity a primary component of legitimacy? A corrupt government is by nature illegitimate, assuming social contract. And without social contract, would the Paladin be governed by it at all?

That would be my interpretation :-p.


[EDIT ADDED]


I absolutely agree. I would furthermore add that there is a reason why atonement exists, and it is not limited to helms of opposite alignment. Sometimes, you get stuck in a quandary, you grit your teeth and choose, you violate your code, you do penance and atone, and you go on.

There's deffinetly merrit to this argument, I suppose...



Horrible spoiler there :(

Regarding the topic, I think it's ultimately up the her god to judge Miko. But as I see the situation now, this will definitely lead to her losing her powers and maybe to become a fallen paladin. Which would only be natural, for the Order to have a new enemy (seeing that no one likes her).

Which really only leaves one major question... just how big of a smirk will be on Belker's face?

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-26, 04:42 PM
Man, I hope someone takes Miko down a peg. With power-attack, if needbe.
At any rate, regarding the "completely legal" evil type, you CAN go in and waste them, but only if they're abusing their power. Someone who just happens to be evil that runs the show isn't a fair target.
If you can, delve into his history, learn about him, and bring him down for a past transgression.

Diggorian
2007-01-26, 05:18 PM
Of course, I personally feel kinda like Miko is about 1 step from slipping from LG to LN and losing her class features, anyway... but maybe that's just me :-p.

Assuming you've read #406, I gotta say she just took the last step ...


Lying to protect a nation really cant be treason, as you're protecting Azure city -- treason = destroying a gov't. At the leasts it's debatable, but Miko carried out an 'execution' without any deliberation, even cutting off (among other things) Shojo's rational counter-points during her self-righteous tirade. Not lawful, especially not good.

Whamme
2007-01-26, 06:31 PM
Well then it's an excellent thing that you're not any sort of authority. :smallbiggrin:

He's a paladin. If he isn't striving to serve Good every waking moment of his life, why did he take up that mantle?


So others don't have to. (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20061223.html)

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-26, 06:56 PM
...That...doesn't work remotely.

Whamme
2007-01-26, 06:58 PM
...That...doesn't work remotely.

Who are you replying to? I am confused.

headwarpage
2007-01-26, 07:08 PM
Random question - does a paladin know when they fall? Somebody in the comic discussion suggested that Miko might not even realize she had lost her powers for a while, until she tried to use them. Personally, I've always imagined that a fallen paladin could feel the blessings of the gods falling away. But what are other people's thoughts on that?

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-26, 07:13 PM
Who are you replying to? I am confused.
I mean the "so others don't have to." Not in this context, at least. ...well, I guess it does, kind of.

Frojoe21
2007-01-26, 07:16 PM
When a Paladin falls, I always think of what Bartleby said in Dogma; that there is something of a void in one's being. My interpretation of a paladin falling is feeling a distinct emotional or spiritual hole, that just doesn't sit right with the paladin. That is why the atonement spell is there, as a way to alleviate that emotional/spiritual "hole" that is inside them..

Matthew
2007-01-26, 07:24 PM
Random question - does a paladin know when they fall? Somebody in the comic discussion suggested that Miko might not even realize she had lost her powers for a while, until she tried to use them. Personally, I've always imagined that a fallen paladin could feel the blessings of the gods falling away. But what are other people's thoughts on that?

I think that both could be valid interpretations, depending on the nature of the fall.

headwarpage
2007-01-26, 07:25 PM
When a Paladin falls, I always think of what Bartleby said in Dogma; that there is something of a void in one's being. My interpretation of a paladin falling is feeling a distinct emotional or spiritual hole, that just doesn't sit right with the paladin. That is why the atonement spell is there, as a way to alleviate that emotional/spiritual "hole" that is inside them..

Yes, exactly. In Miko's situation, I'd imagine that she will immediately feel that, and have a moment of "Oh, gods, what have I done?" Or she'll feel it and conclude that the gods are unworthy of her service anyway.

Matthew
2007-01-26, 07:28 PM
It depends on her emotional state. She may have such strong conviction that she mistakes something inside herself for the presence of God or she might find a more sinister deity has taken the place of her rightous one without her knowing.

headwarpage
2007-01-26, 07:42 PM
Well, it's not spelled out in the RAW, so it's really a case of going with whatever you like for flavor. I was mostly curious about what people thought.

And yes, in Miko's case, she may just be too emotional to notice or care. Or there may be a god who just waits around for paladins to fall so he can convert them to blackguards while they're vulnerable.

Dervag
2007-01-27, 12:36 AM
That's why I like the Chaotic/Evil alignment best. You can kill and destroy whatever you want and you can let those Paladins just try and stop you.:smallbiggrin: Oddly enough, I like to kill Paladins in D&D.Well, we now have the vote of the 'roleplay a sociopath' faction. So what does everybody else think?


Assuming you've read #406, I gotta say she just took the last step ...If she's not a murderess now, it's not for lack of effort.

Of course, Durkon might still be able to save him. Shojo is a 14th level aristocrat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html), so he might not have been knocked down below -10 by that.

I don't know what will happen. I'm convinced that this will make Miko fall, but I'm not sure how fast she'll notice. She's very likely to be in the middle of a fight very soon, and she may try and fail to call up her paladin abilities quickly at that point. On the other hand, she might just go berserk and start attacking everything in sight. I do not think she's going blackguard, though.

Sulecrist
2007-01-27, 01:04 AM
Of course, Durkon might still be able to save him. Shojo is a 14th level aristocrat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html), so he might not have been knocked down below -10 by that.

That looked like Power Attack to me. And she kind of charged... while we're talking about crunch, maybe she's getting a little Shock Trooper action.

Deadly Shock Trooper action.

*cough*

Paladins... need nonpaladins to be monitored by. I actually liked the whole wizard-Batman thing mentioned earlier. I might have to steal that.

Divides
2007-01-27, 01:10 AM
Man, I hope someone takes Miko down a peg. With power-attack, if needbe.
At any rate, regarding the "completely legal" evil type, you CAN go in and waste them, but only if they're abusing their power. Someone who just happens to be evil that runs the show isn't a fair target.
If you can, delve into his history, learn about him, and bring him down for a past transgression.

I'll second that. Although, really, I, myself, would argue that harming someone who who registers as evil but doesn't seem to be doing any harm (and as such, may very well be borderline neutral for all you know) without any reason beyond your DE getting, "yes reading," probably isn't really in line with the exalted interpretation of most paladin's either.

Being good only to those who happen to also be good alignedisn't what "good" is about, IMHO. You can smite those who are doing harm, but those who may have enough redeaming qualities to actually be redeamed probably should be redeamed, not smoten.

Just a thought, though, and heavilly up for interpretation, I suppose.



Well, it's not spelled out in the RAW, so it's really a case of going with whatever you like for flavor. I was mostly curious about what people thought.

True, although there is the point that a paladin that violates their code loses their immunity to fear (if I'm not mistaken), so you could make a pretty strong case that the paladin would notice that (and possibly even everyone within 10 feet of them O_O), even if the DM doesn't support any other reason for them to notice.

But anyway, as other have said, I'm in favor of the "empty void" feeling (as well)... although as has been covered, emotional state may temporarilly cover this up (not to mention that I'm sure allot of fallen paladins are very good at denial).




Of course, Durkon might still be able to save him. Shojo is a 14th level aristocrat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html), so he might not have been knocked down below -10 by that.

Heck, even that aside, arn't clerics heading there right now with the resources and prepared spell slots to res the dead wizard?

Sulecrist
2007-01-27, 01:29 AM
True, although there is the point that a paladin that violates their code loses their immunity to fear (if I'm not mistaken), so you could make a pretty strong case that the paladin would notice that (and possibly even everyone within 10 feet of them O_O), even if the DM doesn't support any other reason for them to notice.


I never even thought about that before. That's really fantastic--as a DM, it could be a great way to slowly let a Paladin know that they've done something wrong. They start feeling afraid again.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-27, 03:22 AM
That looked like Power Attack to me. And she kind of charged... while we're talking about crunch, maybe she's getting a little Shock Trooper action.

Deadly Shock Trooper action.

*cough*

Paladins... need nonpaladins to be monitored by. I actually liked the whole wizard-Batman thing mentioned earlier. I might have to steal that.
I was joking. Although that's a good excuse for me to bring in a Silver Pyromancer NPC in my Eberron campaign, accompanying some lowbie Paladins.

Then again, SP's are Evoker-focused, and Bat-Wizards usually ban Evoc...

Also, the one comment I plan on making with regard to Miko's slashy-slashy is that it represents why Paladins should not allow their own personal prejudices to get in the way. Even when you're following something that seems to be a "logical" conclusion to you, you can be wrong. Mortal, and all that.

Matthew
2007-01-27, 07:13 AM
I never even thought about that before. That's really fantastic--as a DM, it could be a great way to slowly let a Paladin know that they've done something wrong. They start feeling afraid again.

I think Paladins still experience fear, they are just immune to the effects.

headwarpage
2007-01-27, 08:44 AM
Well, how many HP does Shojo actually have? He's never been a warrior-type, so we have no reason to think he had any sort of Con bonus even when he was young, and he's taken a few aging penalties - at least -3, if not -6. Given that senility seemed entirely plausible to the people around him, he's probably venerable, so that's a -6 to Con, and a -3 HP/level hit. If he didn't have a Con bonus to begin with, his average HP at this point would be all of 21. With a full power attack (2-handed, you'll notice), Miko would knock him to -10 every time even if she didn't crit. Even without power attacking (and it really looks like she did), she'd have a shot at it.

Yes, there's a few assumptions in there, but as Rich has said, plot>rules. And if it only takes a few convenient (and entirely reasonable, imo) assumptions to make the plot work within the rules, that's even better.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-27, 11:55 AM
Plus, it sort of looked like a coup de grace. I'd say sitting in a chair unarmed with no intention of fighting back would qualify for helpless.

Diggorian
2007-01-27, 12:05 PM
Judging by Rich's art in the last panel, Shojo has a rip in his torso box, not just the usual damage red-line characters get with survivable HP loss. I think he's a goner ('til those clerics come to raise him, I hate Resurrection for this reason -- robs killing of it's gravity). I like that literally and symbolically the throne has been sundered too.

I'm thinking a Paladin would feel their fall all at oncethough I've used piecemeal warnings before. A Paladin in my game, with holy symbol stamped on his mirror shiny plate and all, that played only by the letter of code and alignment. He was literally waiting until level 11 to become a Blackguard. :smallyuk:

One day his armor lost it's luster, and just wouldnt shine any more. He couldnt figure why. Bought a whole new shiny suit, and gradually that one became dull too.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-27, 02:44 PM
One day his armor lost it's luster, and just wouldnt shine any more. He couldnt figure why. Bought a whole new shiny suit, and gradually that one became dull too.
That's...a really, really good idea.
Mind if I gank that for my fallen-types?

Edit: Also, I personally like the idea that paladins experience fear, but they're immune to it. My Eberron Silver Flame pally is full of worry and doubt about himself and his church's methods--I'm going for the reformist instead of the "normal" Flame paladin. My best guess is he's going to get himself excommunicated when he finishes making a book, but his connection to the Silver Flame might stay. THAT'LL be awesome.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-27, 03:26 PM
Man, I hope someone takes Miko down a peg. With power-attack, if needbe.
At any rate, regarding the "completely legal" evil type, you CAN go in and waste them, but only if they're abusing their power. Someone who just happens to be evil that runs the show isn't a fair target.
If you can, delve into his history, learn about him, and bring him down for a past transgression.
If he isn't doing horrible things with his power, he wouldn't be evil in the first place.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-27, 03:29 PM
If he isn't doing horrible things with his power, he wouldn't be evil in the first place.
I disagree. You can be plenty evil without ever taking action. It's not a measure of what you do (though they can certainly affect it), but it IS a measure of what you are.

Diggorian
2007-01-27, 08:46 PM
That's...a really, really good idea.
Mind if I gank that for my fallen-types?

Sure, I'm done with it. :smallwink: But, I agree with Renegade, Shojo wasnt/isnt evil at all.

I believe evil is as evil does (judged by actions), but his intentions dont even seem evil. Lying to keep yourself alive and your kingdom free of corruption can be Neutral Good no problem.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-27, 11:55 PM
I don't think Shojo is evil at all. ...or, was.

TheOOB
2007-01-28, 12:49 AM
Meh, Miko is on the high road to becoming a blackguard, and she has been for a long time. She does a bit too much of the cold blooded killing and not enough of the compassion and mercy.

Contrary to popular belief, paladins, unlike clerics, are not judged by gods (at least not in the standard D&D setting). A paladin can worship a god, just like a cleric, but a paladin is in no way required to worship a god and there is no penalty to a paladins abilities if they anger their god, they only have a penalty if they either a)become an alignment other then lawful good, or b)break their code. Keep in mind that a Paladin must be lawful good in addition to following the paladin code, and that the paladin code doesn't neccesarly have anything to do with the alignments of law or good.

Also note that in D&D alignment is not reletive or subjective, it is, and only is, a definate quality someone has based on their actions that determines how magic effects them. If alignment was relitive and based on intent then you could declare yourself evil in response to an unholy blight spell and take no damage. I think most people agree that a good person gives of themself to help others, and an evil person hurts others for personal gain. Miko killed Shojo because it was easy, the option to have a trial and make sure Shojo gets what he deserved was available, and she probally has the influence to make it fair, but she didn't even attempt to wait and see if that was possible, instead she took the easy way out and killed a defenseless old man in cold blood because it was the quickest way to eliminate what she thought was evil.

For the record, if OotS was a campaign I was DMing, Miko would have lost her paladinhood the second she attacked the OotS unprovoked (an evil aura doesn't count, killing someone for that is like pulling someone over because their black).

Diggorian
2007-01-28, 01:24 AM
For the record, if OotS was a campaign I was DMing, Miko would have lost her paladinhood the second she attacked the OotS unprovoked (an evil aura doesn't count, killing someone for that is like pulling someone over because their black).

Watch your implications there.

I agree that evil, like any alignment, is determined by action not intention. Because of this, I sanction paladin's dispensing justice to those evil they meet. Not necessary outright killing, but worthy of investigation. They wouldnt have the alignment if they hadnt behaved evily before and frequently.

If cops IRL could sense car thieves, and did, they'd have reason to run their plates. Sadly, not all black people are car thieves or criminals, and catching true criminals is harder.

TheOOB
2007-01-28, 01:31 AM
Ahh, but the the term "evil" covers a lot of ground, not all of it entirely clear, and not all of it something that warrents death by katana. Is the school bully who steals lunch money from smaller kids evil? More then likely. Does he deserve to die? No.

Once you start killing/arresting people based on something such as detect evil rather then evidence you start heading into Minority Report territory.

Diggorian
2007-01-28, 03:21 AM
Yeah Oob, that's why I say evil should be investigated by paladins two posts up. Cold-blooded pre-emptive killing is against the goodness of a paladin. Justice can be dispensed in many ways.

clericwithnogod
2007-01-28, 06:06 AM
I nominate Belkar for Judge of the Paladins. He'd put an end to this goody-two-shoes stuff once and for all...

Blech, Paladins...effete snobs deserving the Kurgan treatment for such.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-28, 03:10 PM
Effete? Bah. Part of what the class is about is wading into the fray with the nastiest nasties that Evil can come up with. Of course, there are many other aspects including diplomacy, protecting the innocent, and bringing the guilty to justice. But there's a reason Paladins are immune to fear-effects.

And snobs? Well, some. Paladins are more often than not noble, since the class is patterned after the knight-errant of medieval lore, and sometimes they let their status as chosen holy warriors go to their heads a bit. But many are simply humble servants of Lawful Goodness who want to do the best they can.

At least, of the ones I've played.

Hallavast
2007-01-28, 10:23 PM
This is a key part of my question. The law can be perverted to create gross injustice, poverty and all the other values the paladin believes he must oppose. There can be a conflict between good and law but no way to legally fix the law.

Worse, though divine intervention is a higher authority, the gods can rarely get directly involved. The purpose of clerics and paladins is to wield divine power on the god's behalf. The paladin IS the divine intervention. Also, as gods can rarely convey their direct decisions, the cleric or paladin must make decisions on his behalf. The paladin IS the divine judgement. The god is only able to audit his agents, not command or direct them. The paladin stops the corrupt leader on his own initiative or it doesn't get done.

Can the paladin argue with his judge?
In short, yes. The paladin has a duty to uphold the spirit of the law to promote and maintain the common good. If a law is evil or unjust, it is the Paladin's job to abolish it or see to it that someone with authority can abolish it. A lawful good person does not support unjust or evil laws, they simply seek legal solutions to problems with the law first. In this case, changing the one in power will in practice change the law.

A paladin may very well be ignorant to his deity's wishes, but as long as he upholds the spirit of his code (which must have been made with good intentions by a god or church) with goodness in his heart, he will maintain his powers. Miko, however is blinded by an evil motive. Revenge. Furthermore, I'm sure she violated her code. If a paladin knowingly violates the code with evil in their heart, then that paladin knows their authority and power mean nothing. And so, they lose their powers. This is why Mace Windu fell. It relies on a theme that guilt is inherent in evil deeds.

the_tick_rules
2007-01-28, 11:15 PM
when did mace windu fall? As for judging paladins, either their fellow paladins or themselves in terms of their code. but anyone can make personal judgements.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-29, 01:08 AM
when did mace windu fall?
After getting his hands chopped off. A couple of hundred stories.

knightsaline
2007-01-29, 03:34 AM
Who watches the watchmen? The other watchmen. Who watches those watchmen? The first group of watchmen. Who watches both gropus of watchmen as a precaution? The leader of the watch. have any of you read "THUD!" by terry pratchett or any of the other ankh morpork city watch books ? Vimes is constantly asked "who watches the watchmen?" to which he replies "we watch each other" when asked who watches him, he replies "I watch myself". My guess is that the paladins watch each other. should one of them break the code, the paladins council charges the accused of breaking the code and committing an evil act. if found guilty, the paladin has a few options.
a) he/she is stripped of his/her powers by the pallys council and sent by the council on a quest. if the accused succeeds on the quest, they receive atonement
b) same as above, but the council jails them
c) council strips the pally of their powers and they live their life as a fighter minus the bonus feats
d) the accused summons an evil outsider and swears to be an anti paladin
e) the pally finds the opposed order of his/her previous order (if pallys of freedom, tyranny and slaughter exist in that world)
f) pally council demands the former pally to kill themselves
g) pally council kills them via a twohanded longsword+ power attack
h) former pally asks to die a honourable death in battle. the pally dyes their hair red, shaves it into a mohawk, picks up a greataxe, strips off their armour and goes to slay the tarrasque alone.

personally, i favor (h) and (g), due to thier coolness. If the paladin order has been trying to "tame" the barbarians, the order might have an executioner named Bjorn Paladynslayr. i have to create a barbarian whose sole purpose in life is to kill paladins

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-29, 04:25 AM
After getting his hands chopped off. A couple of hundred stories.

BAHAHAHAHAHAAA!
...oh, I'm going to hell.

Dervag
2007-01-29, 05:57 AM
Well, how many HP does Shojo actually have? He's never been a warrior-type, so we have no reason to think he had any sort of Con bonus even when he was young, and he's taken a few aging penalties - at least -3, if not -6. Given that senility seemed entirely plausible to the people around him, he's probably venerable, so that's a -6 to Con, and a -3 HP/level hit. If he didn't have a Con bonus to begin with, his average HP at this point would be all of 21. With a full power attack (2-handed, you'll notice), Miko would knock him to -10 every time even if she didn't crit. Even without power attacking (and it really looks like she did), she'd have a shot at it.Well, Elan got impaled once when he was fighting Nale. He got knocked down to -7 HP or so, but he lived.

As a rule, I don't count characters as dead in this strip unless something important falls off or their eyes go all XX.

I don't know whether it would be better plotting if Shojo died here or not.


If he isn't doing horrible things with his power, he wouldn't be evil in the first place.Cough*Vetinari*cough...
Seriously, a person may well be evil without being monstrous (in the moral sense). For instance, they might be ruthless bloody-minded bastard who'd stab you as soon as look at you, and still end up leading their country to greatness anyway.


Meh, Miko is on the high road to becoming a blackguard, and she has been for a long time. She does a bit too much of the cold blooded killing and not enough of the compassion and mercy.I don't think she'd make a blackguard. She's not chaotic enough.

Of course, bisecting a head of state is a fairly chaotic act, now that you mention it...


Contrary to popular belief, paladins, unlike clerics, are not judged by gods (at least not in the standard D&D setting).I've always believed that an oath or code can only be enforced by an intelligent being or force. Something judges the paladins, even if it isn't a god. The alternative makes little sense to me, and I prefer to let what I consider to be sense override the RAW.


For the record, if OotS was a campaign I was DMing, Miko would have lost her paladinhood the second she attacked the OotS unprovoked (an evil aura doesn't count, killing someone for that is like pulling someone over because their black).Remember that Miko was actively pursuing the Order of the Stick to stand trial for 'crimes against reality'. They were already highly suspect in her eyes, and the people she encountered along the way would only have exaggerated her conviction that the Order was a threat.

When she encountered them (strips 199 and 200), she did call on them to surrender, and Roy refused. This suggested that Roy was the leader (which he was) and Roy did have a powerful aura of evil. So from Miko's perspective, the intensely evil leader of a band of dangerous criminals had just refused to surrender, which is a fairly textbook example of a case where a paladin might reasonably start attacking.

I don't think that paladins have to be stripped of their powers by some 'council', because no ordinary agency can give them their powers in the first place. The process of stripping away their power pretty much has to be supernatural.

Khantalas
2007-01-29, 06:09 AM
I don't think she'd make a blackguard. She's not chaotic enough.

You do realize that you need be only evil to be a blackguard?

Lapak
2007-01-29, 10:34 AM
That's...a really, really good idea.
Mind if I gank that for my fallen-types?

Edit: Also, I personally like the idea that paladins experience fear, but they're immune to it. My Eberron Silver Flame pally is full of worry and doubt about himself and his church's methods--I'm going for the reformist instead of the "normal" Flame paladin. My best guess is he's going to get himself excommunicated when he finishes making a book, but his connection to the Silver Flame might stay. THAT'LL be awesome.I like both the armor and the fear. Though I haven't done gradual falls with paladins before, I rather like the idea of a progression combining these: their surface appearance starts to fade, with armor dulling and holy symbols fading away from whatever they're inscribed on. Then the falling paladin realizes that the great hand that held fear at a remote distance isn't there any more; that their muscles are turning to water and their heart is beating faster in the face of danger. THEN they lose the ability to channel their active powers.

What's best about it is that I can see this leading to either redemption and restoration or bitterness and a deeper, surer fall.

Diggorian
2007-01-29, 11:29 AM
Sadly, we didnt finish the campaign because we wanted to return to another game. Then one of my players, whom is a much more experienced DM, started running another D&D campaign. So we just went with that.

The last plot developement was the introduction of an NPC that may have been his long-lost twin, a rogue with an uncertain alignment (not good). The pally never detected evil on him since he felt a bond to the guy despite the other PC's disliking him. If he didnt know he was evil he could associate with him.

The rogue was related to him, a disguised outsider meant to fulfill the Blackguard requirement. He'd often tempt him with leaving the party, a viable option my DM style allows.

"That monk girl is too naive to see the dark truths of the world, and the wizard wields you as a shield while he accumulates power for himself. They dislike me cause I tell you the truth, my brother." I played him like the player's other PCs in other games, which are anything but paladinish.

By the rules, pally's nor clerics require gods. To me though, that's ridiculous. I dont have deities or angels showing up to preach at them, but portray it like a detached mysterious benefator/parent.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-29, 12:18 PM
HaHA! New revelations of the comic.
And let me just say I don't give a good god damn. That was a LONG time in coming. :D

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-29, 01:29 PM
HaHA! New revelations of the comic.
And let me just say I don't give a good god damn. That was a LONG time in coming. :D
It had been coming since #406 and not a moment sooner. Now, I know the weekend seems like a long time when there's a cliffhanger like that, but let's keep some perspective here. :smallwink:

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-29, 01:44 PM
I've been waiting for her to fall since she went in swords (heh) akimbo on the gang. Good riddance to bad paladins.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-29, 02:07 PM
Okay, so she should have fallen for attacking the strongly evil leader of a group of criminals who had just refused to surrender? That's... fairly screwed up standards for falling you have there.

Maxymiuk
2007-01-29, 02:11 PM
I've been waiting for her to fall since she went in swords (heh) akimbo on the gang. Good riddance to bad paladins.

You mean with the swords through her hips? :smalltongue:

Akimbo (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/akimbo)


To get back on track, a paladin gets judged by his or her own deity. They're friggin' HOLY warriors after all - it would take a very aloof (or uncaring) god to hand out his powers left and right and then not check up on what his followers are doing with it.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-29, 02:15 PM
Okay, so she should have fallen for attacking the strongly evil leader of a group of criminals who had just refused to surrender? That's... fairly screwed up standards for falling you have there.

I have a problem with a paladin who trusts an easily fooled detection ability and refuses to even consider talk to clear matters up before it comes to blows.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-29, 03:07 PM
I have a problem with a paladin who trusts an easily fooled detection ability and refuses to even consider talk to clear matters up before it comes to blows.
I think your memory is a little rusty. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) She gave them a chance to surrender. Also, she'd been hearing all along the way how horrible they are (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0174.html), and to top it all off, was told they had destroyed the Redmountain Gate. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) She had plenty of reason to attack.

Diggorian
2007-01-29, 03:45 PM
I kinda saw it coming from when she was gonna kill Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html), then when the Order stuck up for him she was about to fight them all to the death until Shojo stopped her. Wrath.

Did anyone else notice the color drained from her outfit, as though dulled away :smallbiggrin:

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-29, 03:50 PM
I think your memory is a little rusty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html).
You're mistaken. Usually, letting someone finish saying "Without a little--" before engaging is sort of jumping the gun.
It might just be my dislike for her, or my pet peeve for being unable to defend myself, but I personally would at least let the bastich finish his sentence.

And having gone over the fight again, Roy makes multiple attempts to get her to explain further--and when he's effectively helpless (not Helpless, mind), she smites him without even giving him the chance to say a thing.
I'm sorry, if that's not being a little too quick to judge, Belkar is NG.

Dervag
2007-01-29, 08:26 PM
I've been waiting for her to fall since she went in swords (heh) akimbo on the gang. Good riddance to bad paladins.That made her dangerously aggressive, and probably a candidate for an eventual fall, but it didn't warrant a fall in and of itself. Again, she knew these people had committed 'crimes against reality'. She knew that they had caused serious misfortune to several people she had come across while tracking them. She knew that their leader had a powerful aura of evil. And she knew that he had just refused to surrender.

Given that she was outnumbered six-to-one by enemies of unknown power, launching an attack wasn't necessarily a bad choice.

Granted, she's a self-righteous jerk with a combative streak that verges on homicidal mania, but I don't think she's done anything that would warrant falling until now, especially if her paladin code is tied into the samurai ethic the way that the traditional one is tied into the chivalrous ethic.

clericwithnogod
2007-01-29, 09:45 PM
But there's a reason Paladins are immune to fear-effects.


Yep, because a divinely granted immunity to fear is the only way a god can keep a paladin from running away from danger like a big sissy. :smalltongue:

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-29, 09:47 PM
That made her dangerously aggressive, and probably a candidate for an eventual fall, but it didn't warrant a fall in and of itself. Again, she knew these people had committed 'crimes against reality'. She knew that they had caused serious misfortune to several people she had come across while tracking them. She knew that their leader had a powerful aura of evil. And she knew that he had just refused to surrender.
Yeah, I probably would warn her with in-game signs following that.


Given that she was outnumbered six-to-one by enemies of unknown power, launching an attack wasn't necessarily a bad choice.

Maybe. Still, even if it's more hazardous, the "paladin" thing to do is to remove all chance of doubt. Problem is, most people play that Lawful Stupid.

Granted, she's a self-righteous jerk with a combative streak that verges on homicidal mania, but I don't think she's done anything that would warrant falling until now, especially if her paladin code is tied into the samurai ethic the way that the traditional one is tied into the chivalrous ethic.
On their own, no, none would cause a fall until now. But it's not a matter of pushing against a barrier that rebounds--continually dubious acts pile up. I would have probably made her fall when she was about to kil Belkar way back when.

It's all opinion, I guess. I just voice mine a little too loudly.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-29, 09:49 PM
Yep, because a divinely granted immunity to fear is the only way a god can keep a paladin from running away from danger like a big sissy. :smalltongue:
I don't see you facing an angry dragon without soiling your armor and helping confuse it by running away some more. :smallamused:

Divides
2007-01-31, 03:40 AM
HaHA! New revelations of the comic.
And let me just say I don't give a good god damn.

Really? I sure as hell give a good god damn.

Actually, I give 12 of them.

You know, like "Good, the 12 gods damned Miko!"

Or something to that effect :-p.



I kinda saw it coming from when she was gonna kill Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html), then when the Order stuck up for him she was about to fight them all to the death until Shojo stopped her. Wrath.

Did anyone else notice the color drained from her outfit, as though dulled away :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, she lost her white and blue!

...

Now stop being so smug, dag-nab-it!



On their own, no, none would cause a fall until now. But it's not a matter of pushing against a barrier that rebounds--continually dubious acts pile up. I would have probably made her fall when she was about to kil Belkar way back when.

I must say that I agree with this ^_^.