Doppelganger detecting dog?

[Jon_Dahl]

I'm trying to find a way for a small, poor and almost magicless kingdom to detect doppelgangers.

By RAW or RAI, could a dog smell a doppelganger?

[Erik Vale]

RAI: I think dogs can track specific individuals by scent, so depending on the doppelganger/the doppelgangers skill, yes.

RAW: I don't know, I don't remember seeing anything like it in scent, so by RAW depending on the doppelganger it would probably confuse the heck out of the dog.

Edit: Ever read the magician series, they note a doppelganger that was perfect because he had mud on his boots by walking through the sewers. Codewords and lucky rolls should cover most of it [lots of guests means lots of chances for a 20].

Extra Edit: Shapeshifters often can be detected by silver/cold iron vulnerability, either because their resistant to non-silver or allergy. Have people be willing to cut some non-dangerous part of their body with a normal dagger. Or depending on how much your willing to enforce fluff allergy, holding two metal bars, one silver, one cold iron... Or even do most trade with over-valued silver/cold iron pieces, that way doppelgangers have to handle the two on a common bases.

[Jon_Dahl]

RAI: I think dogs can track specific individuals by scent, so depending on the doppelganger/the doppelgangers skill, yes.

RAW: I don't know, I don't remember seeing anything like it in scent, so by RAW depending on the doppelganger it would probably confuse the heck out of the dog.

Edit: Ever read the magician series, they note a doppelganger that was perfect because he had mud on his boots by walking through the sewers. Codewords and lucky rolls should cover most of it [lots of guests means lots of chances for a 20].

Please note that the doppelgangers don't necessarily impersonate specific individuals. They may just appear as an unknown traveller.

[Erik Vale]

See above edits. Most relevant one now I think is silver/cold iron vulnerability/allergy.

[HammeredWharf]

"Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights." If doppelgangers smell different in your campaign, dogs could be trained to identify them. The Change Shape special ability does say the creature "retains most of its own physical qualities." Whether that includes its scent or not is up to the DM.

Doppelgangers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/doppelganger.htm) aren't particularly vulnerable to anything.

[Erik Vale]

Ahh, so a more specific answer for a creature than shapeshifters in general.

Given that detect dragonblood, undead, good, evil etc are a thing, I imagine Detect Shapeshifter could very easily exist as a level 1 spell. Get a item of it for [I think] 2000gp, or higher a court wizard.

[angry_bear]

I'd rule it that if a dog is familiar with dopplegangers, it'd be able to sniff them out.

[Erik Vale]

Mmmm. They are magically changing shape to another species, IMHO a Doppelgänger becoming a human would smell like generic human. Could work though, say slight differences and that the dog needs to be nearby, and telling between a human and doppelganger human is different from telling between a halfling and a doppelganger halfing, each requiring specialized training on par with dogs trained for drug sniffing/bomb sniffing.

[Rubik]

I don't recall the name off-hand, but there's a low-level spell in Eberron that can auto-detect shapeshifters of any kind, which means playing a changeling is actually a liability for disguising yourself, which makes no metagame sense whatsoever, since that's their specialty.

Discern Shapechanger (Sor/wiz 3, Races of Eberron p184 -- and it's in CArc, too.)

However, relying on scent to detect them would mean they'd all take Darkstalker, which they'd probably already have anyway.

[Togo]

Mmmm. They are magically changing shape to another species, IMHO a Doppelgänger becoming a human would smell like generic human. Could work though, say slight differences and that the dog needs to be nearby, and telling between a human and doppelganger human is different from telling between a halfling and a doppelganger halfing, each requiring specialized training on par with dogs trained for drug sniffing/bomb sniffing.

Certainly someone who had been human all day would have clothes that smell different from someone who had only been human, smell and all, for the last hour or so.

Particularly since most people in fantasy settings don't have a daily laundry service.

It's also worth noting that humans can tell the difference. Shapechanging gives a bonus to disguise checks, but a skilled observer taking 20, or 20 observers taking checks at random, might be able to penetrate the disguise. Don't forget masterwork equipment, and aid another, for these observers.

The more brutal method I've seen is the witch hunter method - simply to do violence to everyone. Those that are unusually tough and survive the process, those are your shape shifters.

[hymer]

However, relying on scent to detect them would mean they'd all take Darkstalker, which they'd probably already have anyway.

Darkstalker helps with hiding, not disguising, though.

I'm all for dogs smelling straight through doppelganger and similar shifts. I might make an exception for shifters who have scent on a permanent basis, who also change clothes, wash and so on to get rid of any smell from their previous shift, but I'd keep it at the +10 to disguise level.

[Erik Vale]

Certainly someone who had been human all day would have clothes that smell different from someone who had only been human, smell and all, for the last hour or so.

Particularly since most people in fantasy settings don't have a daily laundry service.

It's also worth noting that humans can tell the difference. Shapechanging gives a bonus to disguise checks, but a skilled observer taking 20, or 20 observers taking checks at random, might be able to penetrate the disguise. Don't forget masterwork equipment, and aid another, for these observers.

The more brutal method I've seen is the witch hunter method - simply to do violence to everyone. Those that are unusually tough and survive the process, those are your shape shifters.

1-2: Good points, I hadn't thought of that.

3: Already said that lots of guests make for lots of nat 20's.

4: Or adventurers, and kills a lot of important low level people.

Also, detect thoughts could be good.

[Rubik]

Darkstalker helps with hiding, not disguising, though.Thing is, if Darkstalker keeps anything from smelling you in the first place, there's no way said things could pierce your disguise using it, either.

[hymer]

It keeps them from smelling you if you're hiding. If you're that good at hiding, no need to disguise yourself to begin with.

[Rubik]

It keeps them from smelling you if you're hiding. If you're that good at hiding, no need to disguise yourself to begin with.Well, disguising yourself as someone else usually means you're hiding your identity, and thus, yourself.

[hamishspence]

Thing is, if Darkstalker keeps anything from smelling you in the first place, there's no way said things could pierce your disguise using it, either.

Lack of scent, may be a "tripwire" in itself. If you train a dog to react to living beings with no scent, when brought before them (not sure how you'd do that though) you may be able to identity people with the feat.

[Erik Vale]

Theres a animal trick where it just points out unusual things. Something without scent would be unusual.
Follow with rewards for that particular lack of scent, and now it looks for when scents disappear. Of course, actual training would be hard.

[hymer]

@ Rubik: I admit the wording of Darkstalker is not the clearest. Bringing disguise into it, when that skill is not mentioned at all in the feat, seems to be going a bit far, however. Other skills can be used to 'hide' something about yourself (bluff and forgery spring to mind), but those I would also say aren't affected by the feat.

[phlidwsn]

I don't recall the name off-hand, but there's a low-level spell in Eberron that can auto-detect shapeshifters of any kind, which means playing a changeling is actually a liability for disguising yourself, which makes no metagame sense whatsoever, since that's their specialty.



Keep in mind for Eberron, a caster with 3rds isn't as common as other settings, given that most NPCs top out at 10-12th level for kings and faction leaders(excepting a few iconic examples). Most casters will be Adepts, just like most priests are Experts, not Clerics.

[XionUnborn01]

Theres a animal trick where it just points out unusual things. Something without scent would be unusual.
Follow with rewards for that particular lack of scent, and now it looks for when scents disappear. Of course, actual training would be hard.


Lack of scent, may be a "tripwire" in itself. If you train a dog to react to living beings with no scent, when brought before them (not sure how you'd do that though) you may be able to identity people with the feat.

Guys, you're forgetting something major. This is a world where magic exists, specifically magic to communicate with animals. A few sessions with a dog while you can actually talk to it to train it to look for lack of scent should be fairly easy. After a week I would say that most dogs would be fairly adept at finding 'dead-scent zones' if you were to use magic to help train them.

[hamishspence]

Guys, you're forgetting something major. This is a world where magic exists, specifically magic to communicate with animals.

True, but this particular kingdom may not have much of it:



I'm trying to find a way for a small, poor and almost magicless kingdom to detect doppelgangers.

[XionUnborn01]

True, but this particular kingdom may not have much of it:

Oh crap, I forgot about that part. Wait are there burrowing animals with scent? If so, just call in a gnome! A team of 4-5 gnomes could train a dog in a week probably if they could all use their SLA.

Tack on Magic in the Blood for a few more minutes a day each?

If that's more magic that is available still, I'm not sure what to do.

[Grollub]

Oh crap, I forgot about that part. Wait are there burrowing animals with scent? If so, just call in a gnome! A team of 4-5 gnomes could train a dog in a week probably if they could all use their SLA.

Tack on Magic in the Blood for a few more minutes a day each?

If that's more magic that is available still, I'm not sure what to do.

gnome trained "bloodhound" badgers!! hah.. epic

[Jeff the Green]

If scent will work, anyone can get it for the price of two feats (Martial Study (any tiger claw) and Martial Stance (hunter's sense)).

[evilserran]

What about true sight? Would let you see through the shapechange. High ranking officers could have a trinket, bloodline or ritual done to gran them "true sight" Heck if you dont want it abused, say the breed of dog was made a long time ago by a wizard experimenting, and the dog is able to have "true sight" as genetics.

[(Un)Inspired]

Particularly since most people in fantasy settings don't have a daily laundry service.

I literally don't think I've ever been in an adventuring party where this was true. It's a cantrip after all.

[Rubik]

I literally don't think I've ever been in an adventuring party where this was true. It's a cantrip after all.Do big red dragons take baths beyond taking them in pools of lava?

[(Un)Inspired]

Do big red dragons take baths beyond taking them in pools of lava?

Oh yeah all the time. Sometimes you have to substitute the blood of the innocent for lava.

Sometimes you have to substitute prestidigitation for the blood of the innocent. It's a rough life.

[Zirconia]

True, but this particular kingdom may not have much of it:

Though for merely training the dogs, you don't need a permanent staff of people who can talk with the dogs, just a one-time hire, maybe refreshers once a year or something. And I would actually think in a world with magic, there would be a reasonably solid industry of horse and dog trainers who would have the "Speak with Animals" capability, whether through their own abilities or something like an Eternal Wand. At the prices warhorses and wardogs sell for, it is easy to imagine a trainer could buy one after a few years and be able to do much faster and more specialized training. I know one or two people who do fancy embroidering for a side business, and they dropped $10-15k on a computer controlled embroidering machine, as a RL example.

For something like penetrating Darkstalker and various other fantasy concealment methods such as plain old invisibility and such, it might be good to use particularly smart breeds of dogs like Border Collies. I saw a special on one which had something like a 100 word "vocabulary", you could name an item you wanted it to fetch from the next room and it would go get it.

[dragonkingofthe]

Why dogs? why not cats?

I don't say this as a cat person (well not just as a cart purson) cats have a long tradition of have some magical ability attributed to them (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CatsAreMagic) so why not extend that to 'see shape shifting' we like how in Bartmaius cats can see into the second and third plane.

[Hurnn]

dopplegangers specificly Assume the shape says nothing of smell so yes they shoudl be able to be detected by dogs, you just have to train them to detect dopplegangers by smell, the smell of the humans clothes they are wearing would totally ineffective at stopping them.

[Rubik]

Why dogs? why not cats?

I don't say this as a cat person (well not just as a cart purson) cats have a long tradition of have some magical ability attributed to them (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CatsAreMagic) so why not extend that to 'see shape shifting' we like how in Bartmaius cats can see into the second and third plane.Because, while dogs have excellent senses of smell, cats just smell bad.

[dragonkingofthe]

Because, while dogs have excellent senses of smell, cats just smell bad.

irrelevant.

I was speaking more from the historical prospect that cats have some intrinsic magic power. Smell has nothing to do with, humans have for thousands of years given cats some level of magical powers, and if a GM pull the 'only cats scare Imhotep' hay I'd totally roll with it, it's got the historical grounding to make it believable and not just a hand wave. heck, even in minecraft cats can scare away creepers.

[hamishspence]

First words out of cat's mouth when you cast Speak with Animals:

"I see dead people"

:smallamused:

[XionUnborn01]

gnome trained "bloodhound" badgers!! hah.. epic

That would actually be a really cool security feature for a gnome dwelling to have!

DM: "You walk into the cavern, and you can hear the sound of dirt falling from the ceiling and being disturbed on the floor. You hear the faint sound of sniffing from all around you, out of nowhere you hear a voice calling out: 'The fighter is a doppleganger!'. as a swarm of badgers surround you."

PC: "Wait...what?"

[Jon_Dahl]

dopplegangers specificly Assume the shape says nothing of smell so yes they shoudl be able to be detected by dogs, you just have to train them to detect dopplegangers by smell, the smell of the humans clothes they are wearing would totally ineffective at stopping them.

This is a very good point. Shape changes, smell remains.

[hamishspence]

If the doppleganger did figure out it needed to change smell, I'd rule it as a Disguise check to successfully match smells (opposed by the animal's Spot check - Spot could incorporate other senses beside vision).

[Lord Vukodlak]

1-2: Good points, I hadn't thought of that.

3: Already said that lots of guests make for lots of nat 20's.

4: Or adventurers, and kills a lot of important low level people.

Also, detect thoughts could be good.

A nat twenty probably wouldn't do it. Dopplegangers have +9 to the disguise skill and has +19 when using changeshape.(+23 if it can also read the targets thoughts)
Presuming they take 10 when making the disguise that's a Disguise DC of 29. Unless you have a +9 to spot a natural 20 won't do the job and I doubt guards would spend a few minutes focused on each guest so they could take 20 on their checks.

[(Un)Inspired]

If some chump dog can totally ruin a doppelgänger then I want their la reduced.

[dragonkingofthe]

If some chump dog can totally ruin a doppelgänger then I want their la reduced.

you know how much a good well trained, well bred hunting dog costs? I have no idea but it can't be cheap.

[Hurnn]

you know how much a good well trained, well bred hunting dog costs? I have no idea but it can't be cheap.

More than guard, less than riding Iwould supose. Honestly they only need 3 tricks to work and if you dont care about combat efficiency, an alternate guard dog package for 25 gold seems about right. If you want it to kick ass too you are moving into ridding dog teritory, where 100-150 gp is about right.

Completely off topic man if I was a commoner I'd totally get into the dog breeding and training gig, they sell for a completely outrageous amount of money.

[(Un)Inspired]

Puppy mills aren't a good thing my friend. For the dogs... or for poor doppelgangers I suppose.

[Maginomicon]

As I recall, the Lupin race from Dragon Compendium can automatically detect the presence of creatures with the shapechanger subtype.

[Lord Vukodlak]

More than guard, less than riding I would supose. Honestly they only need 3 tricks to work and if you dont care about combat efficiency, an alternate guard dog package for 25 gold seems about right. If you want it to kick ass too you are moving into ridding dog teritory, where 100-150 gp is about right.

No it be a great deal more then a ridding dog. To train a dog to recognize the scent of shapechangers you'd need shapechangers on hand to help train the dog. Either a spell caster using illusionary magic or a doppleganger you've captured and forced into doing your bidding either way that gets pricey.