Which stat can be boosted the highest?

[Nettlekid]

First and foremost, I'm stating now, I am excluding any means of getting infinite or near-infinite or for all intents and purposes unlimited and arbitrarily high stats. That means no Pun-Pun-esque shenanigans, no Festering Anger on a Cancer Mage, no Greater Consumptive Field on an anthill, that kind of thing. I'd also like to exclude races from this, just because I'm hoping to find out which stat can get the biggest boost for any character who wants to have that stat high.

With that out of the way, I'm wondering which of the six stats has been given the most support in terms of buffing? Every stat has the capability of gaining a +6 enhancement bonus, +5 inherent bonus, and +5 from levels. But there are also a plethora of stat-boosting spells and other abilities. Which stat has the most buffing potential?

I think I'm leaning toward Charisma at the moment. I know Wisdom has a huge boon in the form of Owl's Insight, which raises it by 1/2 CL, which can be pumped up very high. But Charisma has all sorts of smaller boosts, like Nixie's Grace, Snowsong, Inner Beauty, and Devil's Ego.

I guess this would be shortened if anyone knows of a list of all stat-buffing spells. I Googled a little and didn't find any.

[papr_weezl8472]

Even without Festering Anger, I'm pretty sure it's Strength. Giant Size alone is a +32, which is either a size bonus or an untyped bonus depending on how you read it. Polymorph can also get Str into the stratosphere.

[OldTrees1]

Charisma can give Cha mod bonus to Charisma.
So if you got to 26 Charisma then *tick* you have 34 Charisma *tick* 38 Charisma *tick* 40 Cha *tick* 41 Charisma.

Effectively all bonuses to Cha are doubled. It still might not catch Str though.

[Flickerdart]

Warhulk is +20 to Strength, Bear Warrior is another +20, so it's a solid bet that Strength wins.

[Nettlekid]

Even without Festering Anger, I'm pretty sure it's Strength. Giant Size alone is a +32, which is either a size bonus or an untyped bonus depending on how you read it. Polymorph can also get Str into the stratosphere.

True, that's a big one. Polymorphing into some Gargantuan creature with enormous Strength and then casting Giant Size makes it hard to beat.


Charisma can give Cha mod bonus to Charisma.
So if you got to 26 Charisma then *tick* you have 34 Charisma *tick* 38 Charisma *tick* 40 Cha *tick* 41 Charisma.

Effectively all bonuses to Cha are doubled. It still might not catch Str though.

Where is this coming from?


Warhulk is +20 to Strength, Bear Warrior is another +20, so it's a solid bet that Strength wins.

Those are both good boosts, though I'd prefer something simpler (by way of buffs) than having to sink 10 levels into a class.

[Telonius]

I guess having multiple Fiends of Corruption granting "Fiend's Favor" falls under "arbitrarily high" stats...?

[OldTrees1]

Where is this coming from?

Tattooed Monk: Bellflower tattoos class level^2/day for class level rounds each. So in my 26 => 40-41 Charisma example it would use 3 of the daily uses.

[Dread_Head]

There's also Bite of the Werebear for +16 enhancement bonus to strength.

[Rebel7284]

Most likely strength unless you have caster level in the hundreds to abuse owl's wisdom. =)

DMM persist Archivist with Persistent:
Giant Size
Bite of the Werebear
Draconic Polymorph/Shapechange
Greater Visage of the Deity
Holy Transformation
etc.
etc.

Will have strength in the hundreds.

[Drogorn]

Strength of my enemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthofMyEnemy.htm) lets you get a higher bonus the more power points you pump into it.

[Nettlekid]

So I guess Strength wins. Weird, I would have (and had) guessed Charisma. My aim was to find something that a Psion who planned on using Temporal Reiteration every round to make all buffs effectively permanent could max out, and then get a Void Disciple to have it work toward all his stats. Strength wasn't what I had expected, but it works as well as any I suppose.

[Max Caysey]

Does Goliaths qualify for War Hulk, by vitue of Powerful Build?

[Nettlekid]

Does Goliaths qualify for War Hulk, by vitue of Powerful Build?

Arguably yes, because in Races of Stone there are some Large-only feats that can be taken by Goliaths, but those are specified to be Goliath-friendly, and since War Hulk isn't specially described with "Powerful Build counts" then a lot of people will say no. However, Goliath Barbarian 1 lets you turn Large when you Rage, which means if you level up in a Rage you absolutely do qualify.

[Ravens_cry]

Most likely strength unless you have caster level in the hundreds to abuse owl's wisdom. =)

Um, Owl's Wisdom doesn't scale with level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/owlsWisdom.htm). It lasts longer, but it doesn't increase in bonus.

[Eloel]

Arguably yes, because in Races of Stone there are some Large-only feats that can be taken by Goliaths, but those are specified to be Goliath-friendly, and since War Hulk isn't specially described with "Powerful Build counts" then a lot of people will say no. However, Goliath Barbarian 1 lets you turn Large when you Rage, which means if you level up in a Rage you absolutely do qualify.

Then again, if Large is a prerequisite, you also qualify under Enlarge Person as Human. Drawback? The feat is only active when you're enlarged.

[Rebel7284]

Um, Owl's Wisdom doesn't scale with level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/owlsWisdom.htm). It lasts longer, but it doesn't increase in bonus.

Naming the spell correctly would have been helpful on my part. I was referring to Owl's Insight (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/owls-insight--4619/)

[Silva Stormrage]

Most likely strength unless you have caster level in the hundreds to abuse owl's wisdom. =)


I think you mean owl's insight :smalltongue:. A +4 isn't that impressive :smalltongue:

Edit: Sigh… swordsaged...

[Ravens_cry]

Naming the spell correctly would have been helpful on my part. I was referring to Owl's Insight (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/owls-insight--4619/)
Woah, that's nice. Not only is it a fairly rare bonus type, but it doesn't seem to have the strictures on not giving bonus spells.

Then again, if Large is a prerequisite, you also qualify under Enlarge Person as Human. Drawback? The feat is only active when you're enlarged.

Not too big of an issue. If you are a mundane without UMD, give someone with the spell on their list, or a good UMD score, a wand of it and have them zap you during combat. Cheap and cheerful.

[Chronos]

Quoth Drogorn:

Strength of my enemy lets you get a higher bonus the more power points you pump into it.
True, but at a ML of 20 it still caps out at only +18, only slightly higher than Bite of the Werebear's +16. That seems to me like a fairly large investment for a fairly small gain.

Oh, and any gain from a spell (or, under some rulings, only enhancement bonuses) can be increased by a further +2 via the feat Ability Enhancer. If you interpret the feat to work for all bonus types, then it favors the ability scores for which the most types are available from spells, being effectively a +2 per type. If you interpret it to work only on enhancement bonuses, then it favors everything except Int, which doesn't have any spells better than +4 (so the feat would put you at +6, same as a headband).

[Spuddles]

Even without Festering Anger, I'm pretty sure it's Strength. Giant Size alone is a +32, which is either a size bonus or an untyped bonus depending on how you read it. Polymorph can also get Str into the stratosphere.

Polymorph into firbolg to set str at 40, giant str for 72, bite of werebear for 90.

[Max Caysey]

Naming the spell correctly would have been helpful on my part. I was referring to Owl's Insight (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/owls-insight--4619/)

First thing I'm gonna do when I play the next time, is researching this spell, for every stat, with my wizard. This is a crazy good spell!

[kpumphre]

Warshaper adds +4str and +4con, and then you have Rage also adds to both

[Segev]

The most ironic thing, to me, here, is that Giant Size not only gives strength bonuses, but CAN shrink you back down (as it SETS your size category based on CL) if you get up to Colossal from other effects.

[Nettlekid]

Is there any way to Polymorph yourself to gain the high stats of another creature, and then somehow revert to your normal form without losing those stats? To be in essence a Firbolg, but not have to look like one all the time. Same request for Giant Size, since actually being that big could be troublesome.


The most ironic thing, to me, here, is that Giant Size not only gives strength bonuses, but CAN shrink you back down (as it SETS your size category based on CL) if you get up to Colossal from other effects.

I've always found this amusing. That a Fine and Gargantuan creature both get +32 Str for transforming to a Colossal creature, and that a Colossal creature could turn Huge and get stronger.

[Chronos]

Some polymorph forms have their own shape-changing abilities that you can use, under some polymorph effects, and sometimes those will work in such a way that you can keep your ability score adjustments. Won't apply to a Firbolg, though.

[Nettlekid]

Some polymorph forms have their own shape-changing abilities that you can use, under some polymorph effects, and sometimes those will work in such a way that you can keep your ability score adjustments. Won't apply to a Firbolg, though.

Which creatures can you think of that this works with? The closest thing I can think of is using the Dragons of Eberron spell Strength of the True Form, but that compares current and original forms, so it won't work if my current form is my original form, even though there's a redirect.

[Metahuman1]

If they've not already been mentioned, Construct Graph's form MM 2 can net a character a total of +48 Str.

[Nettlekid]

If they've not already been mentioned, Construct Graph's form MM 2 can net a character a total of +48 Str.

What page is this on? Not seeing it.

[Ravens_cry]

I've always found this amusing. That a Fine and Gargantuan creature both get +32 Str for transforming to a Colossal creature, and that a Colossal creature could turn Huge and get stronger.
Well, you know how when you forge iron into steel and compress it, it gets stronger? Same principle.:smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

Solars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) have the Change Shape ability, which is mostly just cosmetic, and leaves it with the Solar's ability scores and most of its abilities. So you could Shapechange into a solar, and the Change Shape back into a humanoid. Of course, a solar's physical scores, while nice, are nowhere near as high as some creatures'.

[Nettlekid]

Solars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) have the Change Shape ability, which is mostly just cosmetic, and leaves it with the Solar's ability scores and most of its abilities. So you could Shapechange into a solar, and the Change Shape back into a humanoid. Of course, a solar's physical scores, while nice, are nowhere near as high as some creatures'.

Ah, excellent. So Shapechange into a Solar, cast all the appearance-altering buffing spells on yourself (Giant Size, Bite of the Wearbear, et al) and Change Shape to your preferred form so you don't look all freaky. Excellent. Now to find the creature with the highest Strength that also has Change Shape.

EDIT: At first glance, Titan works pretty well, with an impressive 43 Strength.

[Irk]

Actually, I would say it is wisdom. There are ways of boosting CL up to 500, and I even know of a way to get it to infinity, but that is not what your looking for. The spell owl's insight is uncapped, yet not available to wizards, which have the easiest to boost CL. However, limited wish allows you to duplicate a 5th level spell from any list as long as it is not of a school prohibited to you, and I''ll assume that owl's insight is not. With full circle casting (that is, CL 40). With a scroll of consumptive field, you can raise your CL by another 1/2. I know you said no consumptive field, but the amount provided by it is capped in this scenario, and I'm not using it for the strength boost. Reserves of Strength is +3. ioun stone is +1. band of spell enhancement is +2. Bead of Karma is +4. Arcane thesis is +2. Heighten spell + Earth spell is +3 (as it is technically a seventh level spell, heighten brings it to 9, earth spell adds 1, which is negated by arcane thesis, which takes effect on heighten spell). That comes out to a base of 55, which goes up to 72 with consumptive field. just this gives +36 to wisdom. Hold on, I'll get it higher, watch.

EDIT: Got it. Wizard 5 / red wizard 10 / sorcerer 1 / beguiler 1 / dread necromancer 1 /bard 1 / Duskblade 1. With the full circle magic red wizard grants you (in addition to a nifty +4 CL) every arcane spellcasting class you have has a CL of 40. Unfortunately this won't do us much good, so what do you do? Well, you take MASSIVE advantage of the feat Theurgic specialist that allows you to add each arcane CL whenever you cast a spell from your chosen specialist school. What do we choose? UNIVERSAL. what does this do? it gives us a CL of 244 to cast limited wish. What next? NOW we apply all the other things from above to get us up to 259. THEN we use consumptive field for a final CL of 388. Owl's insight means we get a +194 to wisdom Keep in mind all I really need is 5 levels of red wizard, I just got bored of searching for other arcane spellcasting classes. this could potentially bring up the CL to 679 with consumptive field. This'd give us +339, so I think Wisdom is a potential candidate.

[OldTrees1]

Actually, I would say it is wisdom. There are ways of boosting CL up to 500, and I even know of a way to get it to infinity, but that is not what your looking for. The spell owl's insight is uncapped
Owl's Insight is prohibited same as Festering Anger.

[Irk]

Owl's Insight is prohibited same as Festering Anger.

No, it isn't.

[Nettlekid]

Yeah, I'd allow Owl's Insight. Basically anything that doesn't end up going into "This can be however high you want it, it is unlimited" territory. So as long as you aren't making CL infinite (which I know you can, so don't) then Owl's Wisdom works.

[OldTrees1]

No, it isn't.


First and foremost, I'm stating now, I am excluding any means of getting infinite or near-infinite or for all intents and purposes unlimited and arbitrarily high stats. That means no Pun-Pun-esque shenanigans, no Festering Anger on a Cancer Mage, no Greater Consumptive Field on an anthill, that kind of thing.

Yes Owl's Insight is excluded. See arbitrarily high stats

[Irk]

Yeah, I'd allow Owl's Insight. Basically anything that doesn't end up going into "This can be however high you want it, it is unlimited" territory. So as long as you aren't making CL infinite (which I know you can, so don't) then Owl's Wisdom works.

See? Owl's insight is okay as long as I don't employ infinite CL. In my example, I do not, and achieved about +340 to wisdom. If I wanted to abuse it I would just give myself +infinity with the same spell with improved spellcasting.

[Nettlekid]

Er, where's Theurgic Specialist from? Is it a Dragon Magazine thing, because I'd prefer not to use those.

EDIT: Y'know, it's funny. I don't know where my personal cutoff is, but if I imagine having all stat mods of somewhere between 25 to 50 I think that's really cool and I'd love to imagine a super strong character who has those stats, but getting too high (100+ maybe?) just makes it too big and I get bored with imagining it. Weird. My own thing.

[OldTrees1]

See? Owl's insight is okay as long as I don't employ infinite CL. In my example, I do not, and achieved about +340 to wisdom. If I wanted to abuse it I would just give myself +infinity with the same spell with improved spellcasting.

I am corrected.
Question: Did you factor in Circle Magic's caster level cap? (aka Circle Magic's bonus to caster level decreases as you add other bonuses to caster level)

[Irk]

Yes, see theurgic specialist (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Theurgic_Specialist).

[Irk]

Er, where's Theurgic Specialist from? Is it a Dragon Magazine thing, because I'd prefer not to use those.
yeah, sorry. similar effects could be accomplished with master spellthief


EDIT: Y'know, it's funny. I don't know where my personal cutoff is, but if I imagine having all stat mods of somewhere between 25 to 50 I think that's really cool and I'd love to imagine a super strong character who has those stats, but getting too high (100+ maybe?) just makes it too big and I get bored with imagining it. Weird. My own thing.

Have you looked into Tempest_Stormwind's optimization showcase series (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3670571)? it seems like the kind of thing you might like. Some of the authors are part of Dreamscarred press. (Including stormwind himself.)

[OldTrees1]

yeah, sorry. similar effects could be accomplished with master spellthief

Master Spellthief seems to clash with using Circle Magic on each class caster level. (although using Circle Magic on all but 1 class would work)


Yes, see theurgic specialist (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Theurgic_Specialist).

And how does consumption field not negate 1 of the Circle Magic bonuses to cl?

[Nettlekid]

The thing about Master Spellthief (I love it if it works, and I have a semi-theoretical-almost-got-used level 21 character with a CL of 158 or something thanks to it) is that it says "arcane spellcaster levels" as opposed to outright saying "caster level," which inclines me to think that it works by adding actual class levels and not proper caster levels. Which makes it good to use with Bloodlines, but not as amazing for things like an Ultimate Magus.

EDIT:

Have you looked into Tempest_Stormwind's optimization showcase series (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3670571)? it seems like the kind of thing you might like. Some of the authors are part of Dreamscarred press. (Including stormwind himself.)

I have, and I really like them. They're optimized and theoretical optimization, but not so overpowered that they couldn't be used in an appropriate game. They take a single idea and make that as good as it can be, instead of imitating or approximating it with cheese and overused overpowered stuff, and I like the feel of it.

[Irk]

And how does consumption field not negate 1 of the Circle Magic bonuses to cl?

Even if you remove it the bonus is still 170 or so. Where does it say other bonuses to CL negate circle magic bonuses? I just didn't see it.

[OldTrees1]

Even if you remove it the bonus is still 170 or so. Where does it say other bonuses to CL negate circle magic bonuses? I just didn't see it.

"Increase the circle leader's caster level by one for every circle bonus level expended (maximum caster level 40th)."

If the circle leader's caster level is 40 or greater then circle magic either has no effect or reduces the circle leader's caster level down to 40.

I agree that Owl's Insight is still sizable even after these nitpicks of mine.

[Irk]

"Increase the circle leader's caster level by one for every circle bonus level expended (maximum caster level 40th)."

If the circle leader's caster level is 40 or greater then circle magic either has no effect or reduces the circle leader's caster level down to 40.

I agree that Owl's Insight is still sizable even after these nitpicks of mine.

Fair enough. The question is whether or not it's highest with the bounds set in place.

[OldTrees1]

Fair enough. The question is whether or not it's highest with the bounds set in place.

So what Wisdom would the Master Spellthief version reach?
(assuming Circle magic is used on all but 1 class and that remaining class is the one that gets the Master Spellthief and consumptive field bonuses)

[Irk]

So what Wisdom would the Master Spellthief version reach?
(assuming Circle magic is used on all but 1 class and that remaining class is the one that gets the Master Spellthief and consumptive field bonuses)

I'm very tired an I ought to be sleeping for finals tomorrow, but I believe that since master spellthief stacks with all other classes to determine what level spell you can steal, you only need one spellthief level. for circle magic, you only need 5 red wizard level. By using the elf wizard + versatile spellcaster trick, we can qualify for red wizard with one level of wizard (not at level 1 but with only a single level of wizard). since spellthief takes up the last class (that receives master spellthief), and red wizard + wizard takes up another six levels, that gives us 13 dips we can use, all of which will get full CL from circle magic, not counting the actual red wizard part. with the red wizard side included, it's a boost of 14*40 or 560; that goes up to 840 with the field, which gives a total of +420 to Wisdom. Woohoo. I probably missed something.

Good Night [morning].

[Chronos]

Even aside from being Dragon magazine material, Theurgic Specialist can't work on Limited Wish. It only applies to spells from your school of specialization, and you can't specialize in Universal.

[OldTrees1]

Even aside from being Dragon magazine material, Theurgic Specialist can't work on Limited Wish. It only applies to spells from your school of specialization, and you can't specialize in Universal.

Spellthief fixes that issue. We just need a Druid cohort to steal the spell from.
It also solves the problem of using Dragon Magazine since the build switched to using Master Spelltheif instead.

[Irk]

Even aside from being Dragon magazine material, Theurgic Specialist can't work on Limited Wish. It only applies to spells from your school of specialization, and you can't specialize in Universal.
You can specialize in universal, actually.

[OldTrees1]

You can specialize in universal, actually.

Huh? Evidence please? :smallsmile:

[Urpriest]

Is there any way to Polymorph yourself to gain the high stats of another creature, and then somehow revert to your normal form without losing those stats? To be in essence a Firbolg, but not have to look like one all the time. Same request for Giant Size, since actually being that big could be troublesome.

Stacking Alter Self on top of a Polymorph accomplishes that to some extent.

[Irk]

Huh? Evidence please? :smallsmile:

I'm actually posting from a place that blocks the SRD so it's difficult for me to link but if you just google "school specialization SRD", you scroll down to universal, it tells you that you may specialize in universal. I wish I was posting form home so I could link it, but I can't so just search that and find it, it should be there.

[OldTrees1]

I'm actually posting from a place that blocks the SRD so it's difficult for me to link but if you just google "school specialization SRD", you scroll down to universal, it tells you that you may specialize in universal. I wish I was posting form home so I could link it, but I can't so just search that and find it, it should be there.


Universal
Not a school, but a category for spells that all wizards can learn. A wizard cannot select universal as a specialty school or as a prohibited school. Only a limited number of spells fall into this category.

Perhaps your source is faulty?

[Irk]

Perhaps your source is faulty?

No, I'm just an imbecile. Apologies, I really need to start reading things more carefully. As you pointed out, the highest is achieved with master spellthief. Thanks for correcting me.

[OldTrees1]

No, I'm just an imbecile. Apologies, I really need to start reading things more carefully. As you pointed out, the highest is achieved with master spellthief. Thanks for correcting me.

You're welcome
Thanks for doing the master spellthief legwork

[strider24seven]

If the Book of Erotic Fantasy is allowed, Charisma is definitely the highest.

Beauty's Caress gives +1d4 enhancement per 2 caster levels, capped at 5d4, as a 3rd level bard spell. Reserves of Strength (http://dndtools.eu/feats/dragonlance-campaign-setting--98/reserves-strength--3617/) uncaps it, and, depending on your levels of metamagic reduction, you can Extend, Persist, Empower, and/or Maximize it. for +6 enhancement to CHA per 2 caster levels.

[OldTrees1]

If the Book of Erotic Fantasy is allowed, Charisma is definitely the highest.

Beauty's Caress gives +1d4 enhancement per 2 caster levels, capped at 5d4, as a 3rd level bard spell. Reserves of Strength (http://dndtools.eu/feats/dragonlance-campaign-setting--98/reserves-strength--3617/) uncaps it, and, depending on your levels of metamagic reduction, you can Extend, Persist, Empower, and/or Maximize it. for +6 enhancement to CHA per 2 caster levels.

+5d4 -Reserves of Strength-> +6d4 -Empower Maximize-> +24+1/2*6d4
+24+1/2*6d4 ~= +32 Cha far from the current record
Adding in Bellflower tattoos and you get ~+64 Cha which is still far from the current record

[Urpriest]

+5d4 -Reserves of Strength-> +6d4 -Empower Maximize-> +24+1/2*6d4
+24+1/2*6d4 ~= +32 Cha far from the current record
Adding in Bellflower tattoos and you get ~+64 Cha which is still far from the current record

You're misunderstanding. Reserves of Strength uncaps the spell. It doesn't say it just uncaps the spell for the purposes of its own CL boost.

[OldTrees1]

You're misunderstanding. Reserves of Strength uncaps the spell. It doesn't say it just uncaps the spell for the purposes of its own CL boost.

The example was only 3cl above the cap. So while the feat allows its cl boost to exceed caps, I do not see it necessarily uncapping the spell.

[Irk]

The example was only 3cl above the cap. So while the feat allows its cl boost to exceed caps, I do not see it necessarily uncapping the spell.

I usually employ your interpretation, but the other is sometimes brought up due to this line:

You can exceed the normal level-fixed limits of a spell withthis feat...

[OldTrees1]

I usually employ your interpretation, but the other is sometimes brought up due to this line:

I do see how the other interpretation can be reached.

Honestly I wish the authors did more proofreading.

[strider24seven]

Honestly I wish the authors did more proofreading.

Amen to that.