Sick and tired of D&D.....

[Piedmon_Sama]

The purpose of this thread is to ask for suggestions/advice on a new fantasy RPG. Specifically, what I'm looking for is something that is set up to be low-magic, preferrably either a D20 game or something that's easy to learn. I also want something that won't force me to buy 101 suppliments, with a system that's easy to amend/house-rule.

Basically, I'm sick of D&D's standard settings. I'm sick of having to address and readdress the alignment question, of painting out a new setting every campaign, deciding which out of the thousands of options that exist is allowable, and I'm sick of the power bloat that's led to scrolls of magic missile being easily available at a cornershop in some backwater village.

Magic is just too common and readily available in D&D for my liking. I also feel like too often it encourages players to focus on trying out "kewl" new races from the latest suppliment and substituting a weird build for character development. So.... I definitely want something that's geared towards more "low tech" fantasy, but with room to modify anything I want. I'm not looking for realism per se, actually I don't mind if the combat is somewhat over-the-top/pulp-style as long as the PCs aren't given too much power (as in, I-can-roll-into-town-and-kill-the-sheriff-and-all-his-men-at-level-2 power.)

Any suggestions? There's a few options.... Warhammer Fantasy and Conan D20 may be what I want, but in the case of the former I noticed a lot of suppliments at the hobby shop. I've heard about Exalted, but it sounds like characters are made more powerful than I may want them to be. So, I'm willing to hear suggestions and thank anyone for their advice in advance.

[Ashes]

Iron Heroes. Very low magic. No Alignment. No races other than human. No magic equipment dependency. Pulpy and cool combat maneuvers and a lot better feat systems. All you asked for. One book is all you need. (There ARE two other supplements, but first of all they are not necessary at all, and secondly they aren't "full-length" so aren't as expensive)

[Druid]

Step 1. Eliminate all magic casting classes (ranger can be modified, paladin should be dropped as it is to strongly tied to the alignment system) and limit your game to core only (not strictly necessary, but it does simplify things). Without the magic system alignment can be cropped entirely as there is almost nothing left in the game that relies on it.

Step 2. ???

Step 3. Profit!

It may also help to cut level progression of at lower than 20, maybe even as low as five. I'd also suggest you develop an easier way to heal wounds (unless that’s an inconvenience you want in the game). Even if it’s something as simple as letting the heal skill actually refill HP.

There you go, a none magic game using a system you already understand and don't have to buy any books for.

[Ashes]

Step 1. Eliminate all magic casting classes (ranger can be modified, paladin should be dropped as it is to strongly tied to the alignment system) and limit your game to core only (not strictly necessary, but it does simplify things). Without the magic system alignment can be cropped entirely as there is almost nothing left in the game that relies on it.

Step 2. ???

Step 3. Profit!

It may also help to cut level progression of at lower than 20, maybe even as low as five. I'd also suggest you develop an easier way to heal wounds (unless that’s an inconvenience you want in the game). Even if it’s something as simple as letting the heal skill actually refill HP.

There you go, a none magic game using a system you already understand and don't have to buy any books for.

No offense, but that sounds both really boring and ineffective, ast hte rules were designed for something else and therefore things like CR, Wealth-by-level will be completely off. Why not just shell out the few cash for a well-designed system that actually works like that?

[Druid]

It works better if you don't use any enemies with magic abilities or origins as well. If your only fighting NPC who are also limited to masterwork items with something more exotic thrown in on occasion the standard wealth by level guidelines shouldn't matter That's also one of the reasons this works best at low levels. As for it being fun, some people prefer low level, low power games. If the TC is tired of standard, high magic DnD then a low magic, low powered game might be a good change of pace.

[Nahal]

From what I hear Iron Heroes is a good bet. The new WoD (Vampire the Requiem, Werewolf the Forsaken, Mage the Awakening) stuff is also interesting, but places a lot of the onus on the storyteller since the system is very freeform. I've heard of a few others, like Shadowrun and Exalted, but I'm not too familiar with their workings.

[MrNexx]

The purpose of this thread is to ask for suggestions/advice on a new fantasy RPG. Specifically, what I'm looking for is something that is set up to be low-magic, preferrably either a D20 game or something that's easy to learn. I also want something that won't force me to buy 101 suppliments, with a system that's easy to amend/house-rule.

Palladium Fantasy.

The mechanics aren't d20, but they're very familiar to anyone who knows d20. They're easy to learn and house rule, and the game can be played at varying levels of magic power without ruining the experience... even if you play it with the default level of magic power, magic isn't a win button. Alignment is still present, but it's defined and descriptive. If you are of Principled alignment, you act like THIS. If you start acting more THAT way, you become Scrupulous alignment... and it's based on a system of 10-12 statements of what these people will do, will not do, and never do, rather than vague statements that are open to individual interpretations.

You can play it all with the main book; it costs $26.95. One of the primary pantheons is Egyptian, so you can just use that without buying supplements, right out of the box, though there are some neat unique pantheons, as well, and a good number of supplements.

Palladium's supplements are less expensive than D&D books but well constructed. It meshes well with all of Palladium's books, so if you want to throw in futuristic elements, you grab a Rifts book and plop some stuff in. If you want martial arts, you grab Ninjas and Superspies (or any of the other books with martial arts stuff in it) and put them in. Since the books are cheap and they last, you've got good material to last you a while.

[Frosty Flake]

I kinda like GURPS as you only need d6s and you can do anything and everything or nothing with one book... two if you really like the system. It's sort of purchace-based, so rather than levels and what-not you spend XP directly on improving your chance to hit or hit points or "Erotic Art: Orc" :P pretty easy to learn too, as there's really only two kinds of rolls.

[Dausuul]

I kinda like GURPS as you only need d6s and you can do anything and everything or nothing with one book... two if you really like the system. It's sort of purchace-based, so rather than levels and what-not you spend XP directly on improving your chance to hit or hit points or "Erotic Art: Orc" :P pretty easy to learn too, as there's really only two kinds of rolls.

GURPS isn't very good for heroic fantasy, though. It doesn't handle high power levels well at all.

I'd say Iron Heroes if you want heroic fantasy, GURPS if you want realism.

[Maltrich]

GURPS does just fine for heroic fantasy. Run a three- or four-hundred point game, with a few levels of Extra Hits and Hard to Kill. I would suggest remodeling the magic system or cutting it out, because it makes spellcasting pretty easy and that's probably not what you want.

The ritual magic system from GURPS Magic is pretty nice... you could just make all spells ritual, thereby eliminating its use in combat. You could also force players to contact demonic patrons for their magic, and slowly accrue disadvantages as the demons chip away at their psyche. Actually, I think I might do that in my next campaign... although my next campaign was going to be cyberpunk/Cthulhu, so it would kind of be that way anyway.

[krossbow]

Use D20 modern, allow the magic classes and psionic classes in it to be taken at level one, and then do a Final fantasy esque campaing running around shooting shots at magic powered enemies.

[Yakk]

www.epicrpg.com

Skill based. Character initial skills are based on their pre-adulthood life (random charts provided) and their chosen guild before adventuring (setting-specific, picked by player). New skills require downtime to learn.

2d10 based insead of 1d20 based. Under 5 is auto-fail. Active defences, which makes ganging up really powerful (if you are out of defences, even gimps can hit you).

Healing is once per day per person. Combat is deadly (70 lifepoints is edge-of-legendary LP, and heavy crossbows do 4d10 damage in the hands of a newb. 24 lifepoints is average human).

At the same time, a Grand Master swordsman will beat the living snot out of one or two green mercs.

No D&D style alignments -- there is the concept of "disposition", like "I am motivated by greed", but it is mostly to provide a roleplaying seed. "Hmm, a holy monk, who prefers to be reactive and whose main motivation is greed..." Honestly, being kicked out of your guild and/or shot by the city watch is the main ethical constraint on most characters.

Multi-"charge" enchanted items are rare, and require "essence" from the wielder to work. Some of the magical skills players can learn can make magical potions however (alchemists, philtrologist).

Bonus's are roughly at the same scale. So if you have a feel for what "+8 to hit" means in D&D, it means the same in Epic.

Armor soaks damage, but slows you down. Encumberence makes you move slower in combat and dodge worse. The person with the longest weapon gets to try to hit first when you close and attack.

6 types of magic. 2 pseudo-science (metaphysics and alchemy), 2 ancient real-world traditional (theurgy and philtrology), 2 spiritual (shen (ki magic), mentalism (psi magic)). Not all magic is in all areas of their default world. Most magic is hidden by secret societies/cults/large religious organizations, and if you stop supporting your guild they will stop teaching you. (you can learn spells without a guild, but it takes more time/XP/etc).

Some cool spells -- Shen can let you walk on walls or throw someone dozens of meters, Metaphysics can restart people's hearts with electricty or throw someone into orbit, Alchemy can turn your dog's blood into a healing potion or generate an acid cloud, theurgy can shoot an arrow into the air and draw an omen from where it lands (say, a friend's neck... oh, what we are looking for is in the neck of the world!), etc.

Magic has the possibility to fail, and has success levels. Most magic can be resisted multiple ways -- a ray that turns you into a toad could be dodged, blocked, or just resisted using your magical essence.

One area is European-dark-ages like, to start the dip into the new system easier. Other parts of the world vary hugely.

It is a relatively new game -- there are a grand total of 4 books out (65$ via mailorder). Core Rules, Creatures, World & Guilds, Magic.

Writing your own guild is relatively easy.
5 skills, 2 or 3 secret masteries, a reason for the organization to exist, rules for the members, how it fits in society, and what it looks for in recruits.

Masteries are "special abilities". They range from "you get an extra evasion action every round" to "Conflict Path Shen abilties of cost 1 no longer cost you anything" to "You may increase any physical attribute by 1" to "You are given access to the guild's secret beaurocratic contacts. With a little or a lot of red tape, you can now get the beaurocracy to do what you want -- prisoner who happen to be your friend released, bridges built, taxes on sheepherding eased, guards reassigned, etc".

Quite tight. :)

[oriong]

GURPS isn't good at high fantasy. The new system is a bit better, but the combat system is just too realistic to make it work out that well for a game where a hero might regularly take on a dragon single-handed.

That said, it's still a good option in this case since the OP was asking for Low-Fantasy, not High, and GURPS does do an excellent job at making Low Fantasy (it can be as simple as just popping the setting into a low-mana-version). You'll need the core GURPS books, and Banestorm if you don't want to make up your own fantasy setting. And maybe GURPS Magic, so that'll set you back a bit of money.

D20 Modern's system, adapted to a primitive setting, is actually quite good at a low-magic but heroic system

Exalted is a bad choice. It is about as high magic as you can get since there's really not a single character who doesn't have awesome magical powers. You can play as ordinary humans but the game isn't made for it.

An interesting options might be a Call of Cthulhu Dreamlands game, very much against magic, but it's also still CoC so it's high lethality.

[Sulecrist]

Warhammer Fantasy is exactly what you're looking for.

Presumably you know what it is, since you mentioned it. I'd take a look as soon as possible.

Everything wrong with D&D WHFRP does right.

[Were-Sandwich]

Iron Heroes has already been mentioned, and I second it.

Arrowflight, by Deep7, is a very simple game to learn, with a simple unified mechanic, a well written backstory and low-magic, with renassaince level tech, but you can lose the latter without losing anything.

[Thomas]

You only need one book for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, though I'd seriously recommend getting at least the magic and monster supplements. You'll still get away with a fraction of what most D&D groups end using.

I recommend - unsurprisingly - RuneQuest. In playing style, it's not as big a leap from D&D as HeroQuest (not the GW game; their license on the name ran out and Stafford snagged it up) would be, but in quality, it's worlds apart. (Although Mongoose does need to get their **** together.)

The old Chaosium version (3rd edition) is still great, if you can find it anywhere, and the HeroQuest books make great source material (I'm using them in my RuneQuest campaign), but the newest version is Mongoose's RuneQuest (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=39&PHPSESSID=90e864d118804049b5b41bedb8bd9e6e). They've published the rules a bit sneakily (you've got the basic stuff and one magic system in the basic book, you've got two other magic systems in the Companion, you've got cult rules and another magic system in the two Cults of Glorantha books, and you've got the last magic system in Magic of Glorantha).

No alignment (unless you count "Chaotic monster" and "not a Chaotic monster"), magic is not commonly available in the basic rules even though "everything is magical" (this is something I immediately worked to fix, because in my Glorantha, every Orlanthi peasant does use magic to help him plow the fields or hunt for game; although I think Westerners don't get to use magic for everyday tasks), you're quite expected to only allow humans as player races (because non-humans are way too alien, and because they're not balanced to humans; a dark troll is better in every conceivable mechanical way than a human)... RuneQuest combat is traditionally lethal, with limbs getting lopped off, although the new edition mitigates this somewhat (with hero points, which function like Warhammer Fantasy RP's fate points, allowing you to mitigate a deadly blow, etc.). The game's skill-based, which means there's a balance - nobody has exclusive access to magic to rule the game.

They've just put out the first Lankhmar sourcebooks for RQ, too. I don't know how well it fits the magic system, but I suppose in Nehwon you wouldn't get players using magic anyway.

Conan d20 is great, too, of course.

[Charity]

Harnmaster if it is still available, low magic goodness, the combat is more complex than D&D, but nothing you couldn't handle I suspect.

Ooo theres a third edition (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9258.phtml)


Oh yeah ^ Runequest is great too.

Harnmaster here http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/allharnitems.cfg
don't be worried about the many supliments, you don't need any of them.

[Caelestion]

Palladium also has glaring imbalances - usually in the way of hopelessly overpowered base classes in supplemental books. With Rifts, it's the whole system. (I do like Heroes Unlimited though.)

[paigeoliver]

How about running the old NON-Advanced D&D. The Rules Cyclopedia runs about $25 shipped on ebay and collects all the boxed sets into one cohesive rulebook.

In that game you can't buy magic items ANYWHERE. They don't even have prices. If you start out at first level then you will have a low magic game by default too.

Clerics don't even get spells at 1st level. First level wizards start off with only one spell and need a lot more XP to advance than the other classes.

The game has a built in setting as well. All the available modules are set in the "Known World" and they talk about it quite a bit in the rulebook as well.

There ARE add on books for it, but they have all been out of print for like 15 years and are all fairly rare, and don't really introduce any power-creep anyway.

And most importantly the characters are A LOT less powerful than 3.5 D&D characters, and the game plays a lot faster as well. It does have alignment, but it only has the law and chaos axis and it can basically be ignored, it doesn't really do anything in the game.

[MrNexx]

Palladium also has glaring imbalances - usually in the way of hopelessly overpowered base classes in supplemental books. With Rifts, it's the whole system. (I do like Heroes Unlimited though.)

Palladium has a very different design philosophy than D&D... mainly, that balance isn't terribly important, or, that if it is, it's the province of the individual GM, and not the game system.

It is very difficult to have an unbalanced Palladium Fantasy game, IME. It's almost impossible for one character to completely dominate the game except by force of personality... I've never seen it done by force of stats without GM complicity.

[Talyn]

If you want something that's still d20 and you don't like Iron Heroes (I personally am not a fan) you could give the Grim Tales d20 variant a try. It's produced by Badaxe Games and seems to be right in line with what you are talking about.

[KoDT69]

I don't see a reason to switch games. All a DM has to do is change a few small details and BAM no/low magic campaign, even using a known game world. Who says Elminster has to me a mage? Mage - m + s = Sage :smallbiggrin: You can easily put a limit to what is available with little to no effort. Spell-like effects can be converted to actual skill-based actions. Wealth can be limited. I played a no magic campaign twice and both were fun. We used a crafting system to simulate minor magic enhancement on weapons, but we're talking 16th level and max craft skill to make a +3 equivalent weapon, and it was very expensive and time consuming (much like applying the RAW to actual magic item creation). The last one was Renaissance level technology so I took max skill in mechanical engineering and had a rogue with primitive and less effective Batman type gear. It was fun!

[Artemician]

But the thing is, most people don't have that kind of time to houre rule everything, and in a way that everyone will agree with.

Piedmon him(her)self said that (s)he didn't have the time to read through a lot of splatbooks, so what are the odds that (s)he will have the time to copmletely redo the d20 system?

[Thomas]

Changing games is a good idea because many, many games are plain better than D&D.

[MrNexx]

Especially if you're looking for something other than high-magic, "I just got the ability to destroy my opponents by farting" gaming.

[Thomas]

Hey, I'm not knocking characters who fart a column of flame and destroy an army... I'm a fan of MunchkinQue (http://www.crashbox.com/nikk/munch.htm)-- er, super-high-level RuneQuest, after all. The thing is, D&D can't even support really epic gaming, because the rules break down (and casters, especially casters with Epic Spellcasting, win).

If you only like one or some aspects of D&D, there's bound to be a better game for it. If you like playing D&D, though (which I do, often), you can't beat it. :smalltongue:

[Journey]

The trouble is "I just got the ability to destroy my opponents by farting" gaming is the kind that seems to be the most popular these days.

I would second the recommendation for Harnmaster. It only looks complicated if you've never played a skill based system. I believe it is in fact much easier to learn than GURPS. It also has a superior magic system, although I feel the religion system could use a bit of work.

Edit: You don't need the Harnmaster Magic or Harnmaster Religion supplements to play the game, either, even if you want to include magic (although I'd recommend at least Magic, because it kind of completes the system in some sense).

[Last_resort_33]

Non Advanced D&D is an absolutely brilliant game... It's what I play whenever I get pissed off with characters who can "destroy their opponents by farting". I am being totally 100% serious... it is the game that made roleplaying for a reason... you sometimes need to scrape the cheese out and move away from the "Answer me these questions three" type puzzles, but that's up to the DM.

Either that or say "I'm making my own world/setting. If it's not in the Player's Handbook then you can't have it" In my last game I refused to let people buy magic weapons and made them too rare to give away.. of course I had to tweak the CRs a bit... The only magic swords in the world that they knew of, were: The one owned by King Alleron, The one Owned by Prince Wyrian, The one Owned by the Undead Lord, The one buried with an Ancient dead king and the one owned by the Blackguard Boss.... that was 2 years of 6 hours gaming per week, and compared to the swords, other items were in short supply.

HackMaster and Tunnels and Trolls are good fun games... the hackmaster rulebook it a bit thick, but it's very much like AD&D... but most of the rules don't apply. (It's got like a page of tables for the effects of drunkenes, and the DM screen has about 9 fold out pannels and includes a table for the games group pizza order)

Tunnels and Trolls is less of a serious roleplaying game and more a great piece of fun... including classic spells such as "TAKE THAT YOU FIEND"

Ars Magica.... I like the magic system... because although the entire game is based on magic, then most of the magic is quite subtle, especially at low levels... that's as far as I can remember though... it might have changed since then.

[MrNexx]

HackMaster and Tunnels and Trolls are good fun games... the hackmaster rulebook it a bit thick, but it's very much like AD&D... but most of the rules don't apply. (It's got like a page of tables for the effects of drunkenes, and the DM screen has about 9 fold out pannels and includes a table for the games group pizza order)

And you have to buy 9 $20 books to get a complete set of monsters. That's what turned me off.



Ars Magica.... I like the magic system... because although the entire game is based on magic, then most of the magic is quite subtle, especially at low levels... that's as far as I can remember though... it might have changed since then.


Yes, but it's also somewhat restrictive. No bones about it, I LOVE the game. But it is very tied to a very specific game world, and not a lot of people are comfortable playing a game where Catholicism is assumed to be correct.

[Fax Celestis]

...am I the only person who played Everway and liked it?

[Roderick_BR]

Hmm... you want a D20 medieval system with low magic, or a setting for it? Because the rules are fairly easy:
Remove rangers, paladins, clerics, and druids. Keep Fighters, Rogues, monks, and Bards if you want at least one low-power spellcaster in the group. Remove his direct damage spells (bad has very few already) and make all spellcasting be a full round action. You can take out monk if it's too confusing.
Magic scrolls in any backwater village? It's all your DM's fault. Just limit it. Remember the goodies limit in the DM's guide. A small village won't have many valuable stuff to buy. Large cities will have some good stuff, but they'll be rare. A month-long campain can get the fighter just a +1 longsword.
Use only monsters without spell-like abilities. Or if you use, you can put them as legendary creatures, that few have seen, and even less survived a combat.

[Caelestion]

Yes, but it's also somewhat restrictive. No bones about it, I LOVE the game. But it is very tied to a very specific game world, and not a lot of people are comfortable playing a game where Catholicism is assumed to be correct.
I don't see the problem. I doubt many people are upset by the assumptions of Faerûn or Oerth, yet somehow they're offended by the premise of a fantasy mediaeval Earth and its dominant Catholicism. It's still roleplaying after all.

[Thomas]

Real religions are a touchy subject. I know several religious roleplayers who refuse to play a character that believes in a made-up religion; they see that as going against their own beliefs and the tenets of their own religion.

[Caelestion]

Religious roleplayer? Heh. Decades of "Asmodeus created D&D" hysteria rather makes that phrase sound like an oxymoron, even when it isn't!

[Thomas]

Every parent isn't a Patricia Pulling, and every Christian isn't a Jack Chick...

Heck, there was a minor RPG in Finland created by a bunch of young Christians, set around 1 AD...

[Caelestion]

I'm well aware of that Thomas, hence the "even when it isn't" comment at the end. I guess that's why there was no cleric in that awful D&D film with Richard O'Brien and Joseph Gordon-Levitt.

[Jorkens]

The new WoD (Vampire the Requiem, Werewolf the Forsaken, Mage the Awakening) stuff is also interesting, but places a lot of the onus on the storyteller since the system is very freeform.
What's changed in the new WoD? I used to play the old versions - I think I was most familiar with Mage and Changeling and both would seem to fit the OP's requirements provided you don't mind low fantasy. And one of the historical (eg Dark Ages) versions would get you around that too.

[Wizard_Tom]

If you're sick and tired of DnD, allow me to offer some suggestions. My gaming group plays a wide variety of different role-playing games, some of which are fantasy, some of which aren't. Most of them are stand alone books, maybe with one or two extra books.

First the fantasy section...

1. The Burning Wheel- Burning Wheel is a DnD alternative. The rules are pretty simple (easier then d20 at least). It is less magic focused and doesn't have traditional classes. You'll need 2-3 books depending on your style of gameplay.

2. Ars Magica- I haven't played it, but part of my group has and they enjoy it. It also gives everyone a chance to GM, not just one person. Only 1 book is needed.

3. The Riddle of Steel- Also a DnD alternative, with very limited magic (it's completely possible to play with no magic at all). The rules are not simple to learn, as the combat system is the most realistic in a table-top game. Combat is also very lethal, so it actually becomes less of a focus of the game. There are no "trash mobs" in it. Every fight should be highly meaningful. It supports politically/socially aimed characters just as well as combat junkies (who usually have a bit of combat knowledge themselves). Only 1 book is needed, though having the flower of battle supplement is nice.

Other Fantasy Games

1. Legend of the Five Rings- An oriental themed RPG. It was translated into DnD for one of it's editions, but is back in it's own system now. Games can involve heavy magic, but there aren't really magic items. 1 book needed

2. Fireborn- A cross between horror and high fantasy, the players are in modern day london as magic returns to the world. Each of the players is a reincarnated dragon from the previous era. In the modern age they are relearning who they are in a very World of Darkness type setting, though they occasionally "flashback" and play as their draconic selves. 2 books are needed and the website has a lot of free supplemental material.

Now for somethings completely different. Most of these are far less "crunchy" then the above games, that tend towards more narriative (by both players and GM) game play...

1. Prime Time Adventures- You are characters in a tv show. Can be any setting, very simple mechanics, lots of role-playing, and only 1 book.

2. With Great Power- A melodramatic super hero role-playing game. Less open ended and a bit more crunchy then Prime Time, but has a lot in common (like the fact that both use playing cards). Plot progression is very focused and it avoids dead time with nothing happening. 1 Book, for $20. I highly recommend it.

3. The Mountain Witch- This is a self contained adventure. It focuses around a trust mechanic and single dice rolls. Also 1 book, can usually run the whole adventure in 2-3 sessions.

There are many more, but this should be a pretty good list.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Wow, lots of posts. Thanks for all the advice, guys. I've got a few names to browse for on my next visit to the hobby shop now.

As for just modifying D&D---practically every campaign I've DMd has been so heavily modified. I use a lot of alternatives from Unearthed Arcana to make both combat more tricky and magic less necessary, so that when I throw out the price lists on magic items it doesn't screw over the players as bad.

Unfortunately, that still doesn't solve the problem of players' expectations. I literally just had to wrangle for practically a whole week with one player when I told him my next game was going to be "Core Race/Class only" (I allowed feats and spells from the Completes, Races, and PHBII even). He had just gotten Savage Species and wanted to play a monstrous character. Everyday it was "c'mon, let me have a minotaur character/illithid character/trumpet archon character/succubus character, it'll be fun...."

So the problem with D&D is, even though I can modify it, that's not what people expect when I say "hey guys, let's play D&D." I want a game where that kind of "half-dragon-minotaur-psionic-warrior-crashes-your-setting" crap isn't even a consideration.

[Wizard_Tom]

Most of the games listed in my post are less likely to be found at a local hobby store (though I could be wrong). Most of them we've ordered online or bought at Cons. A great sight to check out for less well known role-playing games is The Forge (www.indie-rpgs.com).

[Helgraf]

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

Absolute Need:
Core Rulebook

Good 2nd choices:
Old World Bestiary (more monsters; covering all the creatures of the Empire [the primary setting] and a number of ones from outside its borders)
Realms of Sorcery (expanded magic system, including additional careers for wizards who don't follow the 'rules' and risk burning for it)
Tome of Corruption (covers all things Chaos; a good evil suppliment).
Old World Armoury (extra equipment, exchange rates, rules for bartering)

So that's 5 books in total; there's several more, generally gazetter style sourcebooks (Sigmar's Heirs for more detail on the Empire, Knights of the Grail to cover Bretonnia), adventurers (the Paths of the Damned campaign, Plundered Vaults [a collection of short adventures], Kazak Azgal), or specific-needs books (Book of the Horned Rat details the rat-man Skaven in great detail, but frankly if they're not a major antagonist or you don't care about being "book-accurate" you can just fake it - there's enough material in the Bestiary to use them as enemies and give you a feel for their culture), but you don't _need_ them.

In truth, you can run just with the Core Rulebook with great ease.

The system itself is simple as dirt to learn and to teach; all you'll need is 2 d10s; it's a percentile based system that uses 1d10 as the base damage roll (modified by your weapon and any special qualities it possesses). Combat is intentionally abstract, but can be brutal.

[Roderick_BR]

Ah, I see your point. Well.. every game is bound to have that. In my old gaming group we would came up with new stuff every now and then, but the main campaign would rarely be messed up by non-core rules. (I lost count how many times my friend wanted to play kenders...)

[Diggorian]

So the problem with D&D is, even though I can modify it, that's not what people expect when I say "hey guys, let's play D&D." I want a game where that kind of "half-dragon-minotaur-psionic-warrior-crashes-your-setting" crap isn't even a consideration.

I'd advise D20 Modern. A very different setting from D&D yet similar game mechanics to what you're familiar with. Occupations with generic ability-defined classes and free multiclassing gives alot of diversity; you can stat out virtually any character on TV or movies. No alignment, just allegiances prioritized how they want which can be immoral. PC's can be half-Japanese to half-Somalian without the cheese :smallbiggrin:

Magic completely optional.

It can even be educational cause ya can base adventures off real-life current events.

[Matthew]

Conan D20, for sure. War Hammer Fantasy Roleplay as well (though I am only familiar with First Edition). Iron Heroes is apparently quite good, but I a not familiar with it.

[Subotei]

Go for 3rd Ed Runequest if you can get it: be frightened for your character in combat again...

[Thomas]

Go for 3rd Ed Runequest if you can get it: be frightened for your character in combat again...

3rd's fine, but 4th's better, and the SRD's freeeee...

[RaistlinandPals]

I'd second D20 Modern. D20 Future is also pretty cool (mecha!). The only thing I didn't like about D20 is the wealth bonus system. Whats kinda cool about the D20 is that its like a PHB, DMG, and MM all wrapped in one. Of course, if you want to play future, then a little more money has to be spent.

P.S. I sympathize with you entirely on the wanting to play with basic races. I have almost lost track of the number of weird races/templates I've seen my friends play in our campaign.

[Folie]

May I suggest Savage Worlds? It's a universal system that's designed to be very simple and easy to customize. I like it a lot!