The Melee Bard! Help!

[Rossebay]

I want to play a Perform (Oratory) melee bard. We start at level 1. I'm cool with just about any race, feat combo, w.e. I need a plan.

I'm considering Dread Pirate as a prestige class, purely for flavor (not sure if it's optimal). That's just an idea, though. What are good feats, spells, and ACF's that help to build a proper melee bard?

[Rebel7284]

What books are open? What level do you think you will play until?

The best prestige class for bard is Sublime Chord.

For melee focus, it is common to see Warblade or Crusader using Song of the White Raven feat to get maneuvers while progressing your music.

You can combine those ideas by going:
Bard 4/Crusader 6/Sublime Chord 10

You will need Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell feats to qualify as casting 3rd level spells.

Use Snowflake Wardance feat to add your charisma to attack/damage.

Dragonfire Inspiration will allow you to boost your inspire courage damage (read the handbook on it)

[Rossebay]

All books are open, actually.

And I don't know what the campaign length is, but probably early teens.

[Dread_Head]

For a melee bard you'll want to optimise Inspire Courage, there's a handbook here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0) but the basics at low levels are take Inspirational Boost (SpC) as a first level spell and purchase a Badge of Valour (MIC) as soon as you can. You should consider taking a race that gives the Dragonblood subtype so you can take Dragonfire Inspiration (DrM) to change those +1s to hit and damage into +d6s of fire damage. Otherwise races that grant bonus feats are good so Human (Silverbrow Human if you want Dragonblood as well) or Strongheart Halfling if you wanna go Dex based. Magic Blooded and / or Unseelie Fey can be added to taste if you want.

For feats you should look at Power Attack as you can trade bonuses to hit from IC to bonus damage using it, best used with a THW though. If you go the THF route then Shock Trooper and Leap Attack would be good as well but then you end up as an Ubercharger on a bard chassis which may or may not be what you want. The other route would be to max Dex and take Weapon Finesse and TWF with DFI to provide bonus damage on all your attacks, this gets obscenely feat heavy though especially at low levels without flaws. If you do go the TWF route though Snowflake Wardance is a good feat to pick up for the Cha to hit and there's Slippers of Battledancing and Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows to get Cha to hit again and damage twice.

For spells the usual Bard ones will be pretty good Grease and Glitterdust are good debuffs / BFC. Alter Self and Mirror Image are good buffs.

In terms of PrCs Dread Pirate is decent for IC optimisation and has some other decent abilities but for a truly optimised bard some levels in Abjurant Champion or Swiftblade or some other Gish PrC would probably be better.

For ACF's trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack or Loresong, Countersong for Spellbreaker Song, Fascinate for Healing Hymn, Suggestion for Song of the Heart are all generally regarded as better.

[kpumphre]

Dervish Dancer

[Vaz]

I think a Warforged Words of Creation Bard can generate up to +18d6 Force Damage on each attack or something daft like that. Pick up a Skin of Proteus and take the form of something with a load of natural attacks, and you can generate around 85d6 Force Damage on a Full Attack.

[eastmabl]

Given the bard's middling BAB and the class' secondary emphasis on Intelligence, going into the Combat Expertise tree might be interesting. They are also the only PHB class that has proficiency in the whip, which gives a +2 to trip attempts. This might be an interesting way to play a trip monster, without going down the tired "spiked chain" route.

A human bard 1 with Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Whip gives you a +6 to trip attempts at first level, holding aside any strength modifier you have.

[Socratov]

Ok. Melee bard.

suggestions to disregard: Sublime Chord. sure it's great and fabulous, but not if you really want to go into melee.

suggestions to embrace: Inspire courage optimisation and Swiftblade.

So, things not really said yet: DFI. DFI is awesome in melee. And becuase it is awesome you want to maximise it. A part of this is dropping, how cool it may be, for perform(windinstrument). this will enable you to use a masterwork horn (yes, you will be blowing your own horn) to give yourself more DFI. Another strong point is: be goody two shoes, CG Exalted si the way to go becuase you will get access to Words of Creation *angelic choir*. It DOUBLES your DFI. Which is as awesome as it sounds. One problem however, as a bard you are not the most durable person. Fortunately splats love bards so much that the bard is in a polygamous relationship with each and every one of them. In there is the solution to your problem: in Complete champion there is only 1 thing that's really worthwile and it's the Healing Hymn ACF. It boosts your healing spells (and everyone's as well). And if you don't cast spells, just play for a minute and in one night you will heal up as if you rested a full day of bedrest. then there is the feat+ACF combination called Bardic Knack+Jack of all trades. It enables you to pretty much out skillmonkey a factotum. It's glorious.

Anyway, get the Swiftblade, get a vest of legends, and beg your DM for the feat Chaos Music to boost your IC even further to mitigate the IC loss.

then get a slashing weapon, get snowflake wardance and slippers of battledancing and you are pretty much a god.

Have fun and don't forget to share the spotlight from time to time. :smallamused:

[Rebel7284]

Swiftblade and Sublime Chord are not mutually exclusive. I feel that even for a fighting focused bard, a sublime chord progression would add power. For example:

Bard 7/Swiftblade 3/Sublime Chord 1/Swiftblade +7/Abjurant Champion 2

8th level spells and 17 BAB. Also, the higher level slots make the swiftblade capstone actually useful!

Edit:

With that said, while Swiftblade is certainly nice for hitting people, it loses the silly numbers you can give to others with more inspire courage optimization. Depends on your party makeup more than anything.

[Talya]

Forget multiclassing, altogether.

Use the Savage Bard variant from UA.
Pump Charisma as high as is humanly (or any other LA+0 race) possible. Silverbrow Human is the best race (as you can instantly qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration, and get that bonus feat)
Add the "Spark: Magic Blooded" template to pump it even higher.
Swap Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack.
Swap Countersong for Spellbreaker Song.
Swap Fascinate for Hymn of Healing (just because)
Swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart (Feat, eberron ACF, but not setting specific)
Take Jack of All Trades (to enable bardic knack across trained-only skills), Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, and a heritage feat to move you to some sonic or force dragon. Also consider Martial Study (Devoted Spirt maneuver of your choice - we're going for intimidate as a class skill here) and Doomspeak. If you're going very, very good-aligned, Words of Creation is godlike. Melodic Casting is a good idea too, so you're feat starved. If you can take flaws, do it.
Spell: Inspirational Boost.
Ensure you have a Crystal Echoblade and a Badge of Valor.

Now you're a better jack of all trades than a Factotum, and the only reason you're not the best melee character in the world, is you make your party members better too, so they can stay ahead of you if they were already melee focused.

[gorfnab]

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3

Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8

[Gwendol]

I find bard/warchanter to be an interesting alternative to the bardadin or bardsader.

[Dread_Head]

I find bard/warchanter to be an interesting alternative to the bardadin or bardsader.

I find Warchanters class abilities are nowhere near as useful as the manoeuvres of a Bardsader or Bardblade or even the spells of staying straight Bard or entering Gish PrCs.

The exception to this is if you have Leadership or somehow otherwise have a large group of lower level warriors that you want to make a threat in combat in which case Warchanter is pretty glorious.

[Gwendol]

Inspire Legion FTW!

Seriously though, yes. Had it not been for combine songs the class would be very bad, as it stands it works well for those wanting to build a warrior skald or similar norse bard variant.

[Rossebay]

I was thinking:

Bard 4/Warblade 1/Swiftblade 9/JPM 6 (can sprinkle those JPM levels in whenever)
OR
Bard 4/Warblade 1/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 5 (SOME use of that capstone)

Magic-Blooded Silverbrow Human.
Nice DM is letting me put swift haste on the bard list and allowing that to qualify.
Taking Inspirational Boost. Also taking Bardic Knack and Healing Hymn.

Final Scores: (thank god we rolled)
Str 15
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 10
Cha 18

feats:
flaw: dragonfire Inspiration
flaw: expeditious dodge
human: mobility
1. Chaos Music
3. Snowflake Wardance
6. Song of the White Raven (can't get it any earlier if I want Wall of Blades)
9. Probably Words of Creation, if I can.
12. Song of the Heart
criticisms?

[Dread_Head]

That looks like a decent build, not much more to say really, seems you've taken most of the advice given here in.

If you're taking Snowflake Wardance you should probably take the TWF feat as well and / or pick up Goves of the Balanced Hand. Mainly because you can't THF with Snowflake Wardance and thus you'll be using more attacks to gain damage with DFI rather than the multipliers of THF.

Also unless your DM is allowing the Silver Dragon fluff heritage of Silverbrow Human to make DFI cold based you should probably pick up Draconic Heritage to change the damage type from fire (the most resisted) to something else with sonic probably being the best choice.

Beware Song of the White Raven as activating IC as a swift action means you can't use Inspirational Boost with it which will drop your bonuses from IC.

I'd change your feat progression to
Flaw: DFI
Flaw: Expeditous Dodge
Human: Mobility
1: TWF
3: Snowflake Wardance
6, 9, 12 and 15 in any order: Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Draconic Heritage and Chaos Music

Also consider taking Power Attack at some point but with TWF it would be less necessary.

[Rossebay]

I'm alright with using a move action to power a swift and use both IC and IB in one turn.
besides, after that I can just maintain IC with swift actions, no?
I was considering TWF, but I don't know that I really have the actions/feat space to support fleshing it out until later levels.
Besides, I can just grab Wolf Fang Strike at 5 when I take Warblade 1, along with Moment of Perfect Mind and Wall of Blades.

With efficient use of turn economy, WFS almost replaces TWF, especially when I'm using Perpetual Options and such, and allows me to focus on better DFI/IC progression.

The only thing that bugs me here is the same thing that bugs you--I don't have the swift actions...
Hm. So there's no real reason to get SotWR if I need swift actions for other things, right?
I guess I can replace it with TWF but that seems a bit redundant with WFS/Perpetual Options.

[Socratov]

I was thinking:

Bard 4/Warblade 1/Swiftblade 9/JPM 6 (can sprinkle those JPM levels in whenever)
OR
Bard 4/Warblade 1/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 5 (SOME use of that capstone)

Magic-Blooded Silverbrow Human.
Nice DM is letting me put swift haste on the bard list and allowing that to qualify.
Taking Inspirational Boost. Also taking Bardic Knack and Healing Hymn. Song of the heart traded for suggestion (traded fascination away allready)

Final Scores: (thank god we rolled)
Str 15
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 10
Cha 18

feats:
flaw: dragonfire Inspiration
flaw: expeditious dodgeLingering Song (music lasts longer and you don't have to play it, very good in fights since it frees up actions)
human: mobility Jack of all trades (goes extremely well with bardic knack)
1. Chaos Music
3. Snowflake Wardance
6. Song of the White Raven (can't get it any earlier if I want Wall of Blades)You do know that either inspirational boost or song of the white raven can be used in a turn because of both being a swift action. I advise to drop this (and the warblade level), use the first turn to perform all actions), and then join the fray, Take WoC for this level and free up feats for other cool uses
9. Probably Words of Creation, if I can.if you do follow the advice above, take melodic casting and free up your consentration in favour of Perform
12. Song of the Heart Improved initiative. You want to act first. Even better, everyone wants you to act first, So more initiative is very good for you.

criticisms?
Alterations mine (bolded and strikethrough)

[Bloodgruve]

I got to test run my Whip bard last night. I had a lot of fun. We got to use a 48 pt buy so it was easier to work with. 2x Whip-Dagger from Arms and Equipment Guide.

CG Human, Skills in the 6x Knowledges for KnoDevo, Perform (Beatbox/Sing) and UMD

Feats
1. Melodic Casting, TWF (H), Oversized TWF(F), Extra Music (F)
3. Knowledge Devotion
6. Snowflake Wardance
9. Song of the White Raven
12. Words of Creation

*Bardic Knack ACF from PHB2

*Healing Hymn ACF. This is pretty amazing, +perform ranks to healing spells. 0lvl Cleric heal for 7pts at 3rd level is pretty dam nice...

*Song of the Heart Eberron Bard trade for Suggestion at 6th level.

*Warblade dip at 9th level to qualify for White Raven and also get Iron Heart Surge to clear fatigue with Snowflake.

*Collector of Stories Skill Trick for KnoDevo

Whip-daggers do lethal damage and are great for reach fighting. You don't threaten your reach though so you don't get to make Attack of Opportunities. You also provoke AoO's as a ranged weapon. This build will allow for dual wielding Crystal Echoblades when I get them also...

Badge of Valor for +1 IC..

Whips are fun and Bards are proficient!

Blood~

[Dread_Head]

I'm alright with using a move action to power a swift and use both IC and IB in one turn.
besides, after that I can just maintain IC with swift actions, no?
I was considering TWF, but I don't know that I really have the actions/feat space to support fleshing it out until later levels.
Besides, I can just grab Wolf Fang Strike at 5 when I take Warblade 1, along with Moment of Perfect Mind and Wall of Blades.

With efficient use of turn economy, WFS almost replaces TWF, especially when I'm using Perpetual Options and such, and allows me to focus on better DFI/IC progression.

The only thing that bugs me here is the same thing that bugs you--I don't have the swift actions...
Hm. So there's no real reason to get SotWR if I need swift actions for other things, right?
I guess I can replace it with TWF but that seems a bit redundant with WFS/Perpetual Options.

You can't actually use a move action for a swift action according to RAW which really sucks for builds like this. After that though IC doesn't take any actions to maintain so you can just keep singing or orating and attack away.

I'm not particularly familiar with ToB so I can't offer advice on strikes and whatnot. I agree with the fact that SotWR is redundant if you're already using that swift action for something else.

@socratov

Suggestion can't be swapped for Song of the Heart without getting to Bard 6 and that doesn't look like the plan here. I'm also not sure if Lingering Song is useful as the Bard is going to mostly be focusing on IC and combat so can just keep singing it rather than stopping and Melodic Casting might be redundant as well as beyond 1st level no more Perform ranks need to be spent if no more Bard than 4 is being taken. Also I believe the Dodge and Mobility feats are the prereqs for Swiftblade so they can't be lost.

[Rossebay]

Alterations mine (bolded and strikethrough)

I like it, but I feel like it really shifts focus away from melee and back to main buffer.

The suggestion switch--you're right, I blanked on that, and that does free up a feat slot and make my scaling smoother for the DM.
oh, wait, nevermind? I thought Chaos Music would allow for that.
I suppose at that point I could pick up TWF or Lingering.

Apparently it's a house rule here, but we allow the conversion of move actions to swift actions, so I can still use everything in a turn (IB, IC, DFI, SFWD).

[Socratov]

You can't actually use a move action for a swift action according to RAW which really sucks for builds like this. After that though IC doesn't take any actions to maintain so you can just keep singing or orating and attack away.

I'm not particularly familiar with ToB so I can't offer advice on strikes and whatnot. I agree with the fact that SotWR is redundant if you're already using that swift action for something else.

@socratov

Suggestion can't be swapped for Song of the Heart without getting to Bard 6 and that doesn't look like the plan here. I'm also not sure if Lingering Song is useful as the Bard is going to mostly be focusing on IC and combat so can just keep singing it rather than stopping and Melodic Casting might be redundant as well as beyond 1st level no more Perform ranks need to be spent if no more Bard than 4 is being taken. Also I believe the Dodge and Mobility feats are the prereqs for Swiftblade so they can't be lost.

you got me there. That's why I forgot to mention to take bard to 6 or seven and drop a couple of levels of Swiftblade (the last levels don't add as much as the previous). It gets you greater stuff in the end. Plus, more bard levels (drop de abjurant champion regardless?) equals more IC and thus more DFI. Also, I really urge to use a horn. It's a free (2 with WoC) +1 to DFI.

[Rossebay]

you got me there. That's why I forgot to mention to take bard to 6 or seven and drop a couple of levels of Swiftblade (the last levels don't add as much as the previous). It gets you greater stuff in the end. Plus, more bard levels (drop de abjurant champion regardless?) equals more IC and thus more DFI. Also, I really urge to use a horn. It's a free (2 with WoC) +1 to DFI.

How does a horn increase IC?

[Hiro Quester]

Other spells useful for a melee bard:

Level 1:
Improvisation: get a pool of luck points you can add to any attack, skill or ST roll.
Shock and Awe: flatfooted opponents -10 to initiative

2:
Mindless Rage: make the enemy spell caster attack you using only non-magical attacks.

3:
Creaking Cacophony: an area effect that makes enemies take 150% damage from sonic attacks. Make tour DFI sonic based and your allies do even more serious damage!
Haste and Slow (you win)
Glibness (indispensible for distracting an opponent: "Look, a dragon is attacking you!" and a million other uses)

4:
Sirene's Grace: can make you insanely hard to hit: +4 to CH and DEX; add your CH bonus to your AC.

6: Otto's Irresistable Dance (obviously --if you take Sublime Chord you get this early).

Other useful feats to consider:
Doomspeak: target is -10 on all saving throws next round
Melodic Casting: make a perform check instead of a concentrate check to cast in combat. Can cast spells while using Bardic Music)

[Hiro Quester]

How does a horn increase IC?

The Breaking Down Inspire Courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0) thread explains. Look under "Your Performance" for a list of different masterwork instruments and their bonuses.

[Bloodgruve]

Other spells useful for a melee bard:

Level 1:
Improvisation: get a pool of luck points you can add to any attack, skill or ST roll.
Shock and Awe: flatfooted opponents -10 to initiative

2:
Mindless Rage: make the enemy spell caster attack you using only non-magical attacks.

3:
Haste and Slow (you win)
Glibness (indispensible for distracting an opponent: "Look, a dragon is attacking you!" and a million other uses)

4:
Sirene's Grace: can make you insanely hard to hit: +4 to CH and DEX; add your CH bonus to your AC.

6: Otto's Irresistable Dance (obviously --if you take Sublime Chord you get this early).

Other useful feats to consider:
Doomspeak: target is -10 on all saving throws next round
Melodic Casting: make a perform check instead of a concentrate check to cast in combat. Can cast spells while using Bardic Music)

2: Alter Self! Turn into a Troglodyte, get +6 Natural Armor and Claw/Claw/Bite.. Great for melee bard and natural attacks synergize well with IC/KnoDevo/DFI. Lasts for 40 minutes to start..

[Petrocorus]

My 2 CP: the bardadin:
Bard 2 / Paladin 2 / Bard +6 / Sublime Chord 2 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 3 / Unseen Seer 4

Harmonious Knight ACF or Devoted Performer feat allow you to stack the level of paladin for bardic music.
DFI is of course the best way to make a melee Bard, but snowflake wardance is interesting too.

Look the Slippers of battle dancing from MIC, i think.



I think a Warforged Words of Creation Bard can generate up to +18d6 Force Damage on each attack or something daft like that. Pick up a Skin of Proteus and take the form of something with a load of natural attacks, and you can generate around 85d6 Force Damage on a Full Attack.

DFI on a Warforged? How a warforged can be dragonblooded?

[Vaz]

Maximised Reincarnation.
Dragontouched with Emerald Draconic Heritage
Dragonborn

[Nightraiderx]

Other spells to consider:
Warcry for charging/intimidate

Whirling blade is always fun.
Allegro for more party buffs
Siren's Grace is a great buff for bards