On Ian Starshine's failed escape attempts...

[Loreweaver15]

...Has the idea been struck down that it's Geoff betraying him?

[Zherog]

Only about a hundred or so times.

[Reathin]

That's been my theory from day 1. Also, remember his reaction to thinking that Bozzok (sp?) was dead? My guess is that Boz is blackmailing him with something nasty (enough to want to avoid it, even if it meant staying in the Empire of Blood prison) to keep Ian from escaping.

Also, wait, struck down? As in, proven false?

[Loreweaver15]

That's been my theory from day 1. Also, remember his reaction to thinking that Bozzok (sp?) was dead? My guess is that Boz is blackmailing him with something nasty (enough to want to avoid it, even if it meant staying in the Empire of Blood prison) to keep Ian from escaping.

Also, wait, struck down? As in, proven false?

Yes, that's what I mean.

[Reathin]

Ah. In that case, it may have been? But I haven't seen any reference to that. Then again, my Perception score is about 1, so no surprise there.

[Zherog]

Yes, that's what I mean.

In that case, I don't recall it being 100% negated, no. As with any fan-posted theory, other fans post counter-points.

[Jay R]

"Geoff" is not a plant-name.

Geoff isn't the plant. Aunt Ivy is the plant.

[Loreweaver15]

"Geoff" is not a plant-name.

Geoff isn't the plant. Aunt Ivy is the plant.

...God dammit. Well played.

[JustWantedToSay]

"Geoff" is not a plant-name.

Nepenthes Geoffrayi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepenthes_geoffrayi)

Every old and common name is bound to have a plant or two named after it. :smallamused:

But i agree, Aunt Ivy probably gets payed in Shillings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_(person))

[NihhusHuotAliro]

My theory is that Tarquin's lackeys have slivers from Geoff's peg-leg and they keep using "Discern Location" on them.

[Yendor]

My theory is that Tarquin's lackeys have slivers from Geoff's peg-leg and they keep using "Discern Location" on them.

A thought like that did occur to me. Not in those words, but that they're being tracked via the peg-leg.

[ella ventic]

It certainly hasn't been struck down, as the comic has done everything but literally print "IT'S GEOFF THAT'S DOING THIS" in 80-point Comic Sans. I'm not saying Rich couldn't have some twist up his sleeve, but it is very clear that the readers are supposed to put the pieces together to come to that conclusion.
It's yet another example of how a father's mindless adherence to an idea can be horrible; in Tarquin's case he's wedded to the Lawful "adhere to storytelling conventions", while Ian's Chaotic "trust none but your family" is just as misguided as it is his closest family member who is betraying him. OH, THE IRONY. :smallamused:

[Grey Watcher]

... but it is very clear that the readers are supposed to put the pieces together to come to that conclusion. ...

I dunno, Burlew does love to build up expectations, only to thwart them with something completely unexpected. Of course, he's gotta play it straight sometimes to keep us guessing, so that just leaves us at the tinfoil hat level.

[AKA_Bait]

Well, if so, Amun-Zora's remaining special forces are probably in for a nasty surprise come the dawn.

[Grey Watcher]

Well, if so, Amun-Zora's remaining special forces are probably in for a nasty surprise come the dawn.

Could go the other way around, if Tarquin's lapdogs are expecting to fight two unarmed old men and find themselves face to face with a special forces squad plus a few PC-classed characters. :smallcool:

[Trillium]

What if Geoff is Shoulderpad Guy? :smalleek:
I can't imagine the reason, but hey, why not?

[Grey Watcher]

What if Geoff is Shoulderpad Guy? :smalleek:
I can't imagine the reason, but hey, why not?

Didn't we go down this rabbit hole with Miron? Is SPG going to be the new Therkla?

(For reference, there was a fad for a while speculating that Therkla was any number of other characters in disguise.

[orrion]

What if Geoff is Shoulderpad Guy? :smalleek:
I can't imagine the reason, but hey, why not?

About why not.

Tarquin's team works in pairs. It doesn't make sense to break up a pair to keep an eye on a prisoner for years on end. There's nothing to suggest that Ian is important enough a prisoner to justify keeping one member of their team inactive for so long.

[Sloanzilla]

TT: "We have this elaborate plan of achieving wealth and power, but it involves you spending 90% of your time in prison watching this one guy and then teleporting to the Kingdom of Tears every now and then."

Shoulder Pad Guy: "No"

[Rogar Demonblud]

My theory is that Tarquin's lackeys have slivers from Geoff's peg-leg and they keep using "Discern Location" on them.

The same thing could work if they had the bones from the leg that got chopped off.

[snikrept]

Well, if so, Amun-Zora's remaining special forces are probably in for a nasty surprise come the dawn.

Ah but: A heroic resistance cell inside the empire is quite cinematic. Tarquin would love to keep them around for the increased value to his eventual legend. They'll be fine, I think, even if he knows.

[Trillium]

About why not.

Tarquin's team works in pairs. It doesn't make sense to break up a pair to keep an eye on a prisoner for years on end. There's nothing to suggest that Ian is important enough a prisoner to justify keeping one member of their team inactive for so long.

What if they were working in pairs, and, say, SPG made some grave mistake - insubordination, failure, treason, whatever - and was incarcerated in Tyrinaria, disguised as Geoff (if he wasn't Geoff from the start) and made atone for his failures by keeping watch over the most high-level prisoner?

[Ashiver]

I may sound like a bard here, but hear me out. Rich used a lot of slapstick humor at Geoff's expense, I suspect he is indeed some kind of a villain. It's also been said that they receive food from Aunt Ivy, my guess is that she is making food to send to them as proof for Geoff that she is still alive. She is the hostage of this scenario for Bozzok to blackmail Geoff with. Either that, or for some other reason the both of them are plants.

[orrion]

What if they were working in pairs, and, say, SPG made some grave mistake - insubordination, failure, treason, whatever - and was incarcerated in Tyrinaria, disguised as Geoff (if he wasn't Geoff from the start) and made atone for his failures by keeping watch over the most high-level prisoner?

I just finished explaining that there was no evidence for a certain scenario, so you quote me and then post another scenario that also has zero evidence whatsoever? Yeah, ok.

If Geoff were hiding a huge chunk of his life like that, I have strong reservations that Ian would ever trust him at all. Also, Geoff was holding Elan hostage at one point, and he notes Elan's similarity to Tarquin right away and is willing to kill him despite knowing Tarquin is holding gladiatorial games in his honor. If he really were part of Tarquin's team that would have been an extremely poor move on his part.

[Trillium]

I just finished explaining that there was no evidence for a certain scenario, so you quote me and then post another scenario that also has zero evidence whatsoever? Yeah, ok.

If Geoff were hiding a huge chunk of his life like that, I have strong reservations that Ian would ever trust him at all. Also, Geoff was holding Elan hostage at one point, and he notes Elan's similarity to Tarquin right away and is willing to kill him despite knowing Tarquin is holding gladiatorial games in his honor. If he really were part of Tarquin's team that would have been an extremely poor move on his part.

But rampant baseless speculation is what forumes are for!
Facts don't require discussion, because facts just are.

[Aquillion]

I think it's made pretty obvious that Geoff was betraying him. Remember, when he escaped this time, Geoff was trying to come up with an excuse for them to go to Aunt Ivy's even though it made no sense at all for them to do that (as Ian pointed out.) Unless Geoff is an idiot, the only reason for him to make that suggestion was because that was part of how he usually arranges for Ian to get caught again.

Look at Geoff's expressions and reactions here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0814.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html) -- they're extremely suspicious, like he feels something's gone wrong with his usual plan.

[BrotherMirtillo]

But rampant baseless speculation is what forumes are for!
Facts don't require discussion, because facts just are.

Those two premises are utterly disconnected, and the second one isn't as self-evident as you might think. Speculation is about making a guess when you haven't got all the facts. (Some people do it with no facts whatsoever, but I'm not pushing that.) Discussion is about perceiving the sides and angles of something that might or might not be an objective fact. And yes, a fact just is, but regarding the method of tracking Ian, we're not there yet. We've got some sharply-resonating suggestions, but we're not there yet.

Am I decrying speculation? No. It's fun enough, and far be it for me to say there's no place in the world for dreams or imagination. Just remember the difference between "rampant baseless" guesses and logical argument.

Enough of that -- here's my non-Geoff-or-Ivy guess. How likely is it that the Empire's just using a Scrying spell? I hadn't considered Discern Location because I didn't know about it until I read NihhusHuotAliro's post above, and that one would be more reliable, but it would take a far higher-level caster. If they used Scrying, they wouldn't have to go to Malack or whoever every time a mid-level guy ran amok.

[Phexar]

"Geoff" is not a plant-name.

Geoff isn't the plant. Aunt Ivy is the plant.

Also Geoff isn't truly related by blood to Ian (as his brother-in-law), but Ivy is. She's Ian's very own sister, which is even more fitting for someone who makes a point of only trusting family. Ivy was also the one who asked Ian to come to the Empire of Blood.


"My sister asked me to come help her and her husband with this rebellion thing."

[Scow2]

I think it's made pretty obvious that Geoff was betraying him. Remember, when he escaped this time, Geoff was trying to come up with an excuse for them to go to Aunt Ivy's even though it made no sense at all for them to do that (as Ian pointed out.) Unless Geoff is an idiot, the only reason for him to make that suggestion was because that was part of how he usually arranges for Ian to get caught again.You mean, other than that he wants them to go check in with their long-time friend and support to help them back on their feet now that they're safe?

Geoff isn't treacherous... he's just a bit more thuggish and less canny than Ian.

[orrion]

But rampant baseless speculation is what forumes are for!
Facts don't require discussion, because facts just are.

Speculation is when you posit the outcome when you don't have all the facts.

It is not positing the outcome when you don't have any facts.

[sengmeng]

TT: "We have this elaborate plan of achieving wealth and power, but it involves you spending 90% of your time in prison watching this one guy and then teleporting to the Kingdom of Tears every now and then."

Shoulder Pad Guy: "No"

So why would Geoff do it?

[David Argall]

I think it's made pretty obvious that Geoff was betraying him. Remember, when he escaped this time, Geoff was trying to come up with an excuse for them to go to Aunt Ivy's even though it made no sense at all for them to do that (as Ian pointed out.) Unless Geoff is an idiot, the only reason for him to make that suggestion was because that was part of how he usually arranges for Ian to get caught again.
Given our suspicions, going to Aunt Ivy would have been a bad mistake, but no, it was not senseless. In fact, it is almost the automatic action, which is why it would also be the first place the police would look. But Aunt Ivy can be assumed to be a competent thief with high hide skills. So if Tarquin was not really looking for them, she should be able to hide them [assuming she doesn't finger them instead.] And Tarquin is not that much of a "make every effort to catch these small timers" man. He let our bounty hunters walk away, and then fly away. He goes after Elan hard, but he's family, and "deserves" the extra effort. Ian just gave him some sass. That's death penalty stuff of course, but Tarquin has lots of fish to fry. He has to depend on underlings to do things like find Ian.



Look at Geoff's expressions and reactions here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0814.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html) -- they're extremely suspicious, like he feels something's gone wrong with his usual plan.
Compared with his expression while talking with Belkar, Geoff's expressions are normal enough. He is about to get a ticket out of jail, unless Ian messes it up, as he is likely to. And then Ian starts acting in unexpected ways, which is going to make Geoff nervous in any case. Nothing to see here, maybe...
Certainly nothing compared to Belkar-Geoff in 779 where the very fact of there being a conversation at all raises alarms, and Geoff hints there is something between him and Bozzok.
But what? We still have no motive that really explains suffering in the arena with a constant threat of death. Some might do if we started firmly convinced there is a spy and we know who. But it can all be explained any of several ways.
Let's see... Bozzok talks of overseas friends, which could be Geoff and Aunt Ivy, but Haley is surprised that Geoff is present, which seems strange if he had been in place from the start of Ian's jail time. Tarquin's team could fit, but his go-fer seems strangely ignorant of the details of Ian's imprisonment if Ian was a "special" prisoner.
Ian says he got himself put in the arena [to recruit], which again points to Geoff and Ivy. As does the failed escape attempts. But we still have them suffering about as much as Ian, and for no visible reward. That's a puzzle.
One thing that does seem clear is that the loose threads were not tied up, and we will be seeing more of Ian and the others.

[martianmister]

I think it's made pretty obvious that Geoff was betraying him. Remember, when he escaped this time, Geoff was trying to come up with an excuse for them to go to Aunt Ivy's even though it made no sense at all for them to do that (as Ian pointed out.) Unless Geoff is an idiot, the only reason for him to make that suggestion was because that was part of how he usually arranges for Ian to get caught again.


Given our suspicions, going to Aunt Ivy would have been a bad mistake, but no, it was not senseless. In fact, it is almost the automatic action, which is why it would also be the first place the police would look. But Aunt Ivy can be assumed to be a competent thief with high hide skills.

Why? For all Geoff knows, they were amnestied. He had no reason to think like Ian.

[sengmeng]

I think Ivy is the far more likely candidate for betrayal, simply because Geoff has gone through way too much misery by sticking with Ian. If he is bein bribed by Bozzok, then he's an idiot because he's not benefitting from it. Ivy probably isn't suffering in this situation, so she could presumably be motivated by greed to maintain the status quo.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

So, some people say that it's unreasonable to think that Tarquin's lackeys can cast "discern location".

Remember the tracking rune on the flying carpet? Tarquin has lackeys who can do that, who can make a tracking device rune in objects.

Assuming that Bozzok makes periodic (it doesn't matter what interval of time) payments to keep Ian and Geoff in jail, the tracking device rune pays for itself eventually and then some. Profit. If I'm not mistaken, you'd only have to cast it once.

Since the prisoner cells are in an anti-magic area, the rune only operates when they leave.

It doesn't have to be in the peg-leg, it could be in a loincloth or shoe (it seems that both those are provided to prisoners).

[Grey Watcher]

It doesn't have to be in the peg-leg, it could be in a loincloth or shoe (it seems that both those are provided to prisoners).

In Geoff's case, the peg-leg seems the most likely though, as it's the thing he's least likely to replace once he's out.

[Yendor]

So, some people say that it's unreasonable to think that Tarquin's lackeys can cast "discern location".

Remember the tracking rune on the flying carpet? Tarquin has lackeys who can do that, who can make a tracking device rune in objects.

Discern Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm) is an eighth-level spell, and I'm pretty sure that's out of Malack's range. And if they had it, they wouldn't need a tracking rune, just track the person or object directly. So it's probably some lesser spell they used to track the carpet, and quite possibly the same one they're using on Geoff.

[Kish]

Discern Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm) is an eighth-level spell, and I'm pretty sure that's out of Malack's range.
It can't be out of Miron's range, though.

Even assuming Laurin doesn't have a psionic version of it.

[pendell]

Okay, before we jump to solutions, what other spells , feats, or other options are available to track Ian?

1) Discern location. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm). 8th-level Sorc/Wiz Clr 8, Knowledge 8.

2) Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) Brd 3, Clr 5, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4.

3) Arcane Eye (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneEye.htm) Sor/Wiz 4 .

4) ClairAudience/Clairvoyance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clairaudienceClairvoyance.htm) Brd 3, Knowledge 3, Sor/Wiz 3

What other options are there? Laurin's psionic powers, for example? Goodness knows she's got PP to burn on a standard day.

Also, what options does Ian have to foil magical detection and tracking? He's probably a high-level rogue. I doubt he'd have lived this long if he didn't have SOME way to foil such detection.

1) Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm), Protection 8, Sor/Wiz 8. While Ian cannot cast this himself, a thieves' guild might be able to afford to have it cast, especially if he was the onetime head of the thieves' guild in Greysky.

2) Third Eye: Conceal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#conceal) . At a cost of 120,000 GP, this should be well within his wealth by level. He may even have something like that concealed on his person.

3) Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) Rgr 4, Sor/Wiz 3, Trickery 3 . Again, Ian can't cast this himself but he could find a mercenary caster to do it like the one who removed Belkar's curse.

4) Mage's Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm). Sor/Wiz 5.

5) Amulet of proof against Detection And Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofProofagainstDetectionand Location). Wondrous item , 35,000 GP

6) Oh, right . lead sheets (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Divination). How could I have missed that, given how often it's come up as a joke?

Oh, yes, and what non-magical abilities and solutions are available to track him? The only one I can think of is an informant, and that would have to be a family member because Ian won't trust anyone else.

Once we know what the options are, then we can move from there to deciding what is likely being used.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Now that I've gone through that list , I see that there are an abundance both of magical scrying abilities and of magical ways to foil scrying of various kinds.

Granted, Ian is a rogue -- but Tarquin is a warrior. We can assume that both are high-level characters who can draw on mages, clerics et al for favors , gold, or sexytime (another bit of speculation we've seen waaayyy too much of).

At any rate, given this, and given that Ian was the head of the thieves' guild in greysky city, how likely is it that he set out to liberate a continent from an evil empire without taking precautions?

Especially someone as untrusting and paranoid as he is?

OTOH, he does have a real blind spot towards family.

That's why I believe he's being sold out by his kin, either Geoff or Ivy or both. Because I think he's a highly capable rogue who knows about magical detection -- expects it, even -- and has spent a lifetime foiling it. I think it's likely his blind spot that is doing him in, and his blind spot is towards his own family.

Another reason I dislike the magical theories is because Ian is small change, worth only 825 GP a month. I can't imagine team Tarquin pooling their resources from three empires to chase down one prisoner worth that amount. If he gets away, I think they'll just perform the standard investigation but not more than that.

After all, which is easier: To relentlessly hunt down the prisoner using all resources at his disposal, or just lie and tell Bozzak you still have him? When Ian escaped the last few times, do you think Tarquin and co. allowed the payments to be interrupted because of that trifling fact?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[orrion]

Okay, before we jump to solutions, what other spells , feats, or other options are available to track Ian?

1) Discern location. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm). 8th-level Sorc/Wiz Clr 8, Knowledge 8.

2) Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) Brd 3, Clr 5, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4.

3) Arcane Eye (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneEye.htm) Sor/Wiz 4 .

4) ClairAudience/Clairvoyance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clairaudienceClairvoyance.htm) Brd 3, Knowledge 3, Sor/Wiz 3

What other options are there? Laurin's psionic powers, for example? Goodness knows she's got PP to burn on a standard day.

Also, what options does Ian have to foil magical detection and tracking? He's probably a high-level rogue. I doubt he'd have lived this long if he didn't have SOME way to foil such detection.

1) Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm), Protection 8, Sor/Wiz 8. While Ian cannot cast this himself, a thieves' guild might be able to afford to have it cast, especially if he was the onetime head of the thieves' guild in Greysky.

2) Third Eye: Conceal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#conceal) . At a cost of 120,000 GP, this should be well within his wealth by level. He may even have something like that concealed on his person.

3) Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) Rgr 4, Sor/Wiz 3, Trickery 3 . Again, Ian can't cast this himself but he could find a mercenary caster to do it like the one who removed Belkar's curse.

4) Mage's Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm). Sor/Wiz 5.

5) Amulet of proof against Detection And Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofProofagainstDetectionand Location). Wondrous item , 35,000 GP

6) Oh, right . lead sheets (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Divination). How could I have missed that, given how often it's come up as a joke?

Oh, yes, and what non-magical abilities and solutions are available to track him? The only one I can think of is an informant, and that would have to be a family member because Ian won't trust anyone else.

Once we know what the options are, then we can move from there to deciding what is likely being used.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

He just pops out of a prison and has 120,000gp lying around, huh? Or somehow managed to keep an item concealed for years in a prison? I'm finding those cases hard to believe.

[Mike Havran]

Tarquin didn't recognize Ian when they first met. Of course he could pretend it, but there is little reason to believe that. That means (and is further backed up by the relatively small amount of gold Ian brings to their purse each month) Ian is of very little importance to them. And I can't see why they would waste Discern Location or something similarly high-end for such a lowly asset.

If Ian was held by ordinary security procedures (such as the tracking rune), he should have been caught by now - if Gannji got a hold on the wanted poster, guards have it as well (that actually raises a question how did Gannji manage to find him so quickly if Ian was trying his best to lie low).

If Geoff was working for Tarquin, he would have thought twice about threatening his son with a shiv. Geoff can work for a Bozzok, but it must be one heck of a good reason why he wants to rot in prison where he can die every single day for all those years.

What about the simplest reason? Ian and Geoff did not escape because of a combination of functioning prison security, bad luck and Ian's overestimation of his abilities as a master thief.

What bothers me most about this is why is Bozzok willing to pay gold every month instead of paying a single bill to have him executed?

[Nightcanon]

I think it's made pretty obvious that Geoff was betraying him. Remember, when he escaped this time, Geoff was trying to come up with an excuse for them to go to Aunt Ivy's even though it made no sense at all for them to do that (as Ian pointed out.) Unless Geoff is an idiot, the only reason for him to make that suggestion was because that was part of how he usually arranges for Ian to get caught again.

Look at Geoff's expressions and reactions here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0814.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html) -- they're extremely suspicious, like he feels something's gone wrong with his usual plan.

You mean in 814 when Ian is tearing a strip off the fascist dictator who has capriciously pardoned them? And in 815 when Ian has them run away again, despite said pardon? Geoff is just the guy who thought he was going to rot in prison, who unexpectedly finds himself released on the whim of a megalomaniac, and doesn't want to rock the boat. And wanting to see Ivy? She's his wife, for goodness' sake.

[Nightcanon]

So why would Geoff do it?

Got it! Geoff is actually a monk*, with one of those vow of poverty prestige classes that means that he's actually at peak power when imprisoned with only a loin cloth and his collection of lice...

...and he's also a vampire, so he doesn't mind playing the long game. What's it to him if he has to spend a lifetime waiting for Ian to die in prison?

*it's there in black and white in the strip where Ian explains how they stay alive by not being on the Bill for the arena: don't be anywhere near good enough at combat to be entertaining, but suck less than a level 1 commoner so you don't get slaughtered for the lolz.

[brionl]

I think Ivy is the far more likely candidate for betrayal, simply because Geoff has gone through way too much misery by sticking with Ian. If he is bein bribed by Bozzok, then he's an idiot because he's not benefitting from it. Ivy probably isn't suffering in this situation, so she could presumably be motivated by greed to maintain the status quo.

Neither Bozzok, nor Tarquin are the type to bribe somebody. If Ivy and/or Geoff are ratting out Ian it's because of some sort of threat.


He just pops out of a prison and has 120,000gp lying around, huh? Or somehow managed to keep an item concealed for years in a prison? I'm finding those cases hard to believe.

I'm guessing you never read Papillon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papillon_(book))? Or don't remember strip 261 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0261.html)?

[Nightcanon]

That's why I believe he's being sold out by his kin, ei her Geoff or Ivy or both. Because I think he's a highly capable rogue who knows about magical detection -- expects it, even -- and has spent a lifetime foiling it. I think it's likely his blind spot that is doing him in, and his blind spot is towards his own family.

Another reason I dislike the magical theories is because Ian is small change, worth only 825 GP a month. I can't imagine team Tarquin pooling their resources from three empires to chase down one prisoner worth that amount. If he gets away, I think they'll just perform the standard investigation but not more than that.

After all, which is easier: To relentlessly hunt down the prisoner using all resources at his disposal, or just lie and tell Bozzak you still have him? When Ian escaped the last few times, do you think Tarquin and co. allowed the payments to be interrupted because of that trifling fact?
.
I think that Ian's insistence that [non-family] = [untrustworthy] and conversely [family] = [trustworthy] is about the only thing that the 'Geoff+/-Ivy is betraying Ian' theory has going for it. Otherwise, what does Geoff gain from it? What about Ivy? If she wants Geoff out of the house, why not suggest he takes up fishing rather than keep setting the secret police on him? On the subject of resourcing the hunt for escaped prisoners, the main resource that Team Tarq has here is themselves. Yes, a scroll of Discern Location is a bit much to burn every time a prisoner you are being paid 850gp a month to hold escapes. On the other hand, if they want to keep Ian (or any other political prisoner) under surveillance, they have the spell slots to do that easily enough. If Laurin has the power points left before she goes to bed, she locates the top person on the most wanted list, before going to sleep and waking up again with a full tank. Harder for Miron to do unless he's a spontaneous caster, but still, if he has a handful of level 8 slots he can afford to assign one to surveillance on a standard office day, even as a wizard.

[Shale]

The main thing the theory has going for it is that Bozzok said his "friends" wrote to Ian to get him to leave Greysky, and then Ian said Geoff and Ivy wrote to him to get him to leave Greysky. Either one of them was lying, or Geoff and Ivy are working for Bozzok.

[Mike Havran]

The main thing the theory has going for it is that Bozzok said his "friends" wrote to Ian to get him to leave Greysky, and then Ian said Geoff and Ivy wrote to him to get him to leave Greysky. Either one of them was lying, or Geoff and Ivy are working for Bozzok.Technically, Ian mentions that only Ivy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html) wrote him (second-to-last panel). So Geoff could be utterly innocent. In that case though, aunt Ivy has to be a pretty nasty person, to say the least.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If we meet Aunt Ivy, that might answer a lot of questions.

[Shale]

Plus she'd need to have at least one offscreen accomplice (since Bozzok said "friends"). That's certainly possible, but Geoff's visible nervousness when Belkar mentions Bozzok looks even stranger if he doesn't know the arrangement.

[Phexar]

Neither Bozzok, nor Tarquin are the type to bribe somebody. If Ivy and/or Geoff are ratting out Ian it's because of some sort of threat.

Bozzok has been bribing the authorities of Tyrinaria/The Empire of Blood to hold Ian though.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0915.html


Chancellor Kilkil
Not only did I find out the prisoners we released were connected to you-
- but I also determined that we were being paid 825 gp per month to hold the elder of the pair by one "Bozzok" of Greysky City as part of our Alternative Revenue Inituative.

Miron Shewdanker
I wrote you that random letter 'cause I figured if he was willing to pay to hold him, you might be willing to pay more to free him.

That said there's a particular reason for the bribery here since threats wouldn't work, but it does show that bribery is something he can consider.



What bothers me most about this is why is Bozzok willing to pay gold every month instead of paying a single bill to have him executed?

Spite and hatred for Ian probably. Not very pragmatic but there you go.

[Loreweaver15]

It's more practical than that; Ian is very popular in the guild, and if it gets out that Bozzok had him killed, it would hurt his hold over them.

[Winter Light]

Got it! Geoff is actually a monk*

[...]

*it's there in black and white in the strip where Ian explains how they stay alive by not being on the Bill for the arena: don't be anywhere near good enough at combat to be entertaining, but suck less than a level 1 commoner so you don't get slaughtered for the lolz.

Oh, goodness, thank you. I haven't had a laugh that good in days.

[CRtwenty]

It's more practical than that; Ian is very popular in the guild, and if it gets out that Bozzok had him killed, it would hurt his hold over them.

Also it was a trump card to use if Haley ever tried to seize the guild from him.

[Nightcanon]

The main thing the theory has going for it is that Bozzok said his "friends" wrote to Ian to get him to leave Greysky, and then Ian said Geoff and Ivy wrote to him to get him to leave Greysky. Either one of them was lying, or Geoff and Ivy are working for Bozzok.

Must have missed that. I had pegged the guy that Haley had the ransom note from (i.e. Miron Shewdanker) as the friend that Bozzok referred to as keeping Ian out of the way. If Ivy and Geoff were involved in getting Ian out of town in the first instance, and at Bozzok's instigation, then they could certainly have been acting in what they percieved to be his best interests ('do your brother a favour- either get him outta town, or I have to deal with him permanently myself'). Barring Word of Giant on this, I can't believe in Geoff betraying Ian without a damn good explanation of what is in it for him beyond sharing a prison cell and the chance of being murdered for sport; ditto Ivy betraying Ian (her brother) and Geoff (her husband). How does either actually benefit in any way? Monk/Vampire works because it removes Geoff's otherwise insurmountable twin objections: being in prison seriously sucks as a lifestyle unless you disdain worldly goods, and wasting years in jail matters less to a vamp. It's clearly a nonsense suggestion, but I don't see a better one outside of Ivy being the traitor on her own.

[Nightcanon]

Oh, goodness, thank you. I haven't had a laugh that good in days.

I got more (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0746.html): that whole 'good fighters and bad fighters get selected for the arena/we stay in stay off the bill by being in the middle of the pack/ we dodge a lot' thing? Clear evidence of 'Wis to AC'.

[Fish]

If Kilkil says that they're being paid to hold the elder of the pair (Miron clearly believed it to be Ian, since he wrote the ransom note to Haley) then Geoff has no reason to be there at all. He's going back to prison even though there's no special reason for it — and Tarquin's people don't seem like the kind if people to keep Geoff alive out of sheer humanity.

Why is Geoff there?

Since he's missing a foot, that's probably Bozzok's doing. We all remember Eagle-Eye Pete and Bozzok's solution to that. Perhaps Geoff was famous as a runner or a climber.

[Mike Havran]

It's more practical than that; Ian is very popular in the guild, and if it gets out that Bozzok had him killed, it would hurt his hold over them.His hold would be hurt even more if it got out he held Ian captive in horrible conditions. And it's much more likely for it to get out when he will send money to Western Continent continuously. On top of it, Ian could escape or get rescued and return to unite a part of the Guild and openly challenge Bozzok's position. Dead Ian is clearly much better for Bozzok than living one.

The only reason I can see is that Bozzok is a sadist who prefers watching his enemies suffer constantly instead of killing them outright. After all, he ordered Crystal to blind Pete again instead of simply killing him.

[Fish]

His hold would be hurt even more if it got out he held Ian captive in horrible conditions.
The way I see it, it would hurt Ian's reputation too. If he can't escape from that he's not worth following.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Since he's missing a foot, that's probably Bozzok's doing. We all remember Eagle-Eye Pete and Bozzok's solution to that. Perhaps Geoff was famous as a runner or a climber.

He says he lost it in the arena, because he's not as quick as he used to be.

[roko10]

Since he's missing a foot, that's probably Bozzok's doing. We all remember Eagle-Eye Pete and Bozzok's solution to that. Perhaps Geoff was famous as a runner or a climber.
Don't forget Appendix Steve!

[Loreweaver15]

Don't forget Appendix Steve!

The joke there was that Appendix Steve took that name so that what he was known for wasn't something he'd miss :P

[roko10]

The joke there was that Appendix Steve took that name so that what he was known for wasn't something he'd miss :P

Well, Minor Organ Focus is a real feat in OoTS.

Just ask Thor's Biscupid.

Also, would Brainy Steve count?

[Mike Havran]

He says he lost it in the arena, because he's not as quick as he used to be.Are you sure? I can only find that he says Ian's better than him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0746.html), obviously. Nothing about how he lost his leg.

[Kish]

Also, would Brainy Steve count?
You mean Brainy Pete?

[Fish]

We have our answer.

[Shale]

Sometimes it really is just that obvious.

[Yendor]

A thought like that did occur to me. Not in those words, but that they're being tracked via the peg-leg.

Woo! Partial credit!

[orrion]

I'm guessing you never read Papillon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papillon_(book))? Or don't remember strip 261 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0261.html)?

I remember that strip fine. Belkar had to pull that off from the point they searched him until he was in his cell, alone and in darkness.

That's a tad different than needing to conceal the Eye or an amulet for years. Both need to be worn for the effect, too.

[pendell]

He just pops out of a prison and has 120,000gp lying around, huh? Or somehow managed to keep an item concealed for years in a prison? I'm finding those cases hard to believe.

I bolded that sentence. As you can see from strip 942, Geoff did indeed manage to conceal a wand of sending about his person for three years in prison despite repeated searches by troops commanded by a genre-savvy overlord.

I'm not sure how it works, but mechanically speaking high-level rogues probably have bluff and conceal skills so high they could have smuggled a brass band into that prison and successfully concealed it for centuries -- so long as the opposition were level 1 warriors and experts.

There isn't much that is realistic in this fantasy setting. In a real-life prison I suspect the peg-leg would have been confiscated and replaced with a prison-issue one certified free of electronic devices or other tricks. But fantasy prisons exist only for daring jailbreaks.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[brionl]

See, a threat not a bribe.

[orrion]

I bolded that sentence. As you can see from strip 942, Geoff did indeed manage to conceal a wand of sending about his person for three years in prison despite repeated searches by troops commanded by a genre-savvy overlord.

I'm not sure how it works, but mechanically speaking high-level rogues probably have bluff and conceal skills so high they could have smuggled a brass band into that prison and successfully concealed it for centuries -- so long as the opposition were level 1 warriors and experts.

There isn't much that is realistic in this fantasy setting. In a real-life prison I suspect the peg-leg would have been confiscated and replaced with a prison-issue one certified free of electronic devices or other tricks. But fantasy prisons exist only for daring jailbreaks.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Fantasy prisons exist for daring jailbreaks, yet we saw no daring jailbreaks. Sure, whatever.

[brionl]

I remember that strip fine. Belkar had to pull that off from the point they searched him until he was in his cell, alone and in darkness.

That's a tad different than needing to conceal the Eye or an amulet for years. Both need to be worn for the effect, too.

Or as it turns out, more purloined letter than Papillon.

[DeliaP]

...Has the idea been struck down that it's Geoff betraying him?

Well, that's just crazy talk. Can we focus on what we know is actually true? :smallwink:

[martianmister]

I bolded that sentence. As you can see from strip 942, Geoff did indeed manage to conceal a wand of sending about his person for three years in prison despite repeated searches by troops commanded by a genre-savvy overlord.

They probably know and permit the wand, Geoff is an "informer" after all.

[DeliaP]

They probably know and permit the wand, Geoff is an "informer" after all.

It may be relevant that the prisoners are confined in an anti-magic field, too.

[JustWantedToSay]

Fantasy prisons exist for daring jailbreaks, yet we saw no daring jailbreaks. Sure, whatever.

Here's One (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html)

[Procyonpi]

Your timing on this thread is impeccable.

[Loreweaver15]

Your timing on this thread is impeccable.

Many gratitudes :P

[pendell]

They probably know and permit the wand, Geoff is an "informer" after all.

Why? He's using it to communicate with Bozzak, not them. Why in the world would prison guards have any interest in prisoners communicating with outside criminals?

They'd permit it if he were communicating with the prison authorities or the EoB chain of command. As it is, the EOB is a pawn in Bozzak's scheme, so it makes no sense to tell them anything they have no need to know. That's one of the things Ian counseled and I suspect Geoff followed -- Rogues survive by not letting their enemies , or friends, know anything more about them than they absolutely need to know.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Fantasy prisons exist for daring jailbreaks, yet we saw no daring jailbreaks. Sure, whatever.

We didn't see a break-out. There was a daring break-in though.

[Sir_Leorik]

Fantasy prisons exist for daring jailbreaks, yet we saw no daring jailbreaks. Sure, whatever.


Here's One (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html)

And here's another (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html) (though it's technically breaking slaves from a pen, rather than prisoners from a jail).

[martianmister]

Why? He's using it to communicate with Bozzak, not them. Why in the world would prison guards have any interest in prisoners communicating with outside criminals?

Because these outside criminals are regime's customers.

[Sir_Leorik]

Because these outside criminals are regime's customers.

I suppose it's possible that Bozzok's contract with Miron would have allowed for Geoff to Send to Bozzok, but it's more likely that Geoff only did so during Ian's various escape attempts. Maybe Ivy was the one who kept Bozzok up to date, since she was visiting the prison to smuggle food to Ian and Geoff. That seems more likely to me than Miron allowing a prisoner to exit the Anti-Magic field and use a wand disguised as his peg-leg.

[martianmister]

I suppose it's possible that Bozzok's contract with Miron would have allowed for Geoff to Send to Bozzok, but it's more likely that Geoff only did so during Ian's various escape attempts.

Why? Geoff has no reason to contact with Bozzok. And thanks to anti-magic cells, wand is not a danger for Miron.

[veti]

Why? He's using it to communicate with Bozzak, not them. Why in the world would prison guards have any interest in prisoners communicating with outside criminals?

He communicates with Bozzok, Bozzok then either passes a message on to Tarquin's mates, or tells Geoff to turn them in (by what means? isn't mentioned, but my guess would be it may well involve the same leg).

Tarquin, and hence Tarquin's guards, has every reason to turn a blind eye to that leg.

Edit:

I suppose it's possible that Bozzok's contract with Miron would have allowed for Geoff to Send to Bozzok, but it's more likely that Geoff only did so during Ian's various escape attempts. Maybe Ivy was the one who kept Bozzok up to date, since she was visiting the prison to smuggle food to Ian and Geoff.

There's no reason to believe Geoff was "keeping up to date" at all. If he had been, he would've known that Bozzok couldn't have been dead for "a few weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html)" when he was talking to Belkar.

[pendell]

He communicates with Bozzok, Bozzok then either passes a message on to Tarquin's mates, or tells Geoff to turn them in (by what means? isn't mentioned, but my guess would be it may well involve the same leg).

Tarquin, and hence Tarquin's guards, has every reason to turn a blind eye to that leg.


Assuming, of course, that T and company trust Bozzak. I personally would not permit anyone infiltrating my prison to have a communication device unless it was provided by me and was in communication with my organization. What ELSE could a criminal underworld do inside prison besides ensure that a particular person remained in prison?

I also think the details of this imprisonment are overthought -- it probably goes no further than a form filled out specifying the prisoner and a bag of gold. There are probably no additional details on there to allow a monitor to ensure the prisoner's captivity as well -- that's what the guards are for!

No, I suspect Geoff's arrangement with Bozzak is outside of Tarquin's knowledge, and that's fine with both Bozzak and Geoff. They ARE both rogues -- outsmarting law enforcement is what they do. And the penalty for getting caught is probably immediate death, but that's part of the cost of doing rogue business.

I believe this because it's all part of the KISS principle. The more elaborate an agreement Bozzak makes with Tarquin, the more he reveals about himself and his organization, and that is NOT in his best interest long-term. He is well advised to minimize Tarquin's knowledge of him, and therefore even who is putting him in prison may very well be anonymous. Anything beyond that would be at Bozzak's initiative, outside of Tarquin's control.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[David Argall]

There's no reason to believe Geoff was "keeping up to date" at all. If he had been, he would've known that Bozzok couldn't have been dead for "a few weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html)" when he was talking to Belkar.
That is the easy way to read it, but Geoff is likely not that expert on the details of his wand. He could believe he was sending to a dead Bozzok who just didn't like Ian, or at least thought it was possible. Or... But Sendings were only 25 words and were likely not common in any case, and Geoff could easily get out of touch.

[orrion]

That is the easy way to read it, but Geoff is likely not that expert on the details of his wand. He could believe he was sending to a dead Bozzok who just didn't like Ian, or at least thought it was possible. Or... But Sendings were only 25 words and were likely not common in any case, and Geoff could easily get out of touch.

What? You think Geoff thinks he was sending to a dead Bozzok?

[Sir_Leorik]

There's no reason to believe Geoff was "keeping up to date" at all. If he had been, he would've known that Bozzok couldn't have been dead for "a few weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html)" when he was talking to Belkar.

That is an incredibly good point. If he couldn't use the wand due to the anti-magic cells, then he would not have been able to Send (or receive a Sending) and as a result he probably didn't update Bozzok until he thought he had an opportunity to do so. He had no way of knowing if Bozzok had sent Belkar, or if Bozzok was dead.

It seems from strip 942 that Bozzok probably didn't know about Haley being on the Western Continent until Geoff casually mentioned her. While that's good news for Ian, Geoff, Ivy and Jiminy, it will almost certainly lead to wacky hijinx for the Order of the Stick. (By "wacky hijinx" I mean thieves and assassins dogging their heels in Dwarven Lands.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

I wonder how eager the Guild will be to do that, considering what happened when they faced off against three-ninths of the Order a few weeks ago.

[Sir_Leorik]

I wonder how eager the Guild will be to do that, considering what happened when they faced off against three-ninths of the Order a few weeks ago.

Maybe they'll team up with the Heavily Templated Snail, who managed to capture six-twelfths of the Order of the Stick, before Elan broke free of his Dominating Gaze and drove the Snail away into obscurity. :smalltongue:

[Rogar Demonblud]

OOoh, what if the snail is one of the monsters at Kraagor's Gate? Major callback there.

[DeliaP]

OOoh, what if the snail is one of the monsters at Kraagor's Gate? Major callback there.

Don't want to be a killjoy, but it's not really callback when the Snail only appeared in SS&DT. I'd go so far as to predict the Snail will never appear in the online continuity.... (now the Gygax magazine strips are a different matter.... But only if the Snail could be given an OSR reboot!)

[Loreweaver15]

Having not read the print version of SS&DT, I'm just...gonna...
http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120601172351/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/4/43/Snail_S2E25.png

[pendell]

Don't want to be a killjoy, but it's not really callback when the Snail only appeared in SS&DT. I'd go so far as to predict the Snail will never appear in the online continuity.... (now the Gygax magazine strips are a different matter.... But only if the Snail could be given an OSR reboot!)

I suspect you are right, but I also suspect that is a great pity. I would love to see the heavily templated snail again!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sir_Leorik]

I suspect you are right, but I also suspect that is a great pity. I would love to see the heavily templated snail again!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't think the staff at "Gygax Magazine" want any templated monsters in their pages, let alone one as heavily templated as the Heavily Templated Snail! Still, the HTS was intended to be a recurring menace for the "Dragon Magazine" OotS, one who would reappear annually to try (and fail pathetically) to destroy them, again and again.

The HST has a cameo in the "Order of the Stick 2014 Calendar"!

EDIT:

Having not read the print version of SS&DT

Everything in SS&DT has appeared only in print, either originally in "Dragon Magazine", or as bonus material to pad out accompany that material.