Sword and Board Fighter Help

[Meth In a Mine]

Beforehand, I'd like to say I already tried to post this but can't find it anywhere, so if I look like a reposting moron, have mercy.
ahem.
I need help with an effective sword and board fighter in pathfinder. I already know I should take Shielded fighter. My problem is I want it to be PFS eligible, so no house rules allowed sadly (or else there would be very little problem). I know I need Improved Shield Bash. I will need TWF. But the problem is hitting. Until 5th level, I can't use a heavy shield bash without going into the negatives in to hit modifiers. Also, How can I create an effective character without instantly dropping Int and Cha to 7?

Thanks in advance.

[JHShadon]

This guide (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/rogue-eidolon-s-lab/rogue-eidolon-s-guide-to-fighters) can give you some advice, also I think the regular fighter is better than the Shield Fighter Archetype.

[Bigbeefie]

Your in luck I have what I consider a solid Sword and board 2 weapon fighter. Here is my build feel free to toy with it if you want but this is be very strong dealing pretty decent damage and having a totally respectable AC and allowing for bull rushing to provoke Attacks of opportunities or to push enemies into Walls or fogs...I like shoving them into blade barriers, Fire walls, Black tentacles, Created Pits, and even the occasional grease spill.


First you need a Archetype for this Build. We are going with the Two weapon Warrior Archetype found here:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/two-weapon-warrior

First thing to notice is the First ability;

Defensive Flurry (Ex)

At 3rd level, when a two-weapon warrior makes a full-attack with both weapons, he gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks until the beginning of his next turn. This bonus increases by +1 every four levels after 3rd.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1 and 2.

All dodge bonuses stack...this means when you go a shield bashing your actually INCREASING your AC. This is where building that respectable AC comes from.

The other abilities do fix your to hit chance and to also lessen to penalties that typically come from 2 weapon fighting.

I will let you deeply read each other ability but just know this Archetype is FREAKING SWEET!!!!

Alright here is the Rest of the Build:

Human Fighter: 20 point buy
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 7

Trait 1: Defender of the Society- +1 to AC while wearing your armor..always useful from level 1-20

Trait 2: Finding Haleen: +1 HP and +1 Skill for favored Class. (this is toughness in a trait and as a human you will be getting +2 skill points a level free...giving you 3 skills a level to play with...not a bad trade off for a 7 INT)

Feats:
H.B.F- Two Weapon Fighting
1- Improved Shield Bash
1- power attack
2- weapon focus- Scimitar
3- Iron Will
4- Combat Reflexes (+1 to Wis...Increase will save further)
5-Improved Bull Rush
6-Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7-Shield Slam
8-Double Slice (buy a Keen scimitar to not take improved Critical here)
9- Critical Focus
10-Greater Bull rush
11- Shield Mastery (gods yes you are kind to us)
12- Bashing Finish
13- Staggering Critical
14- Two Weapon Rend
15- Critical Versatility
16-Greater two weapon Fighting
17-Stunning Critical
18-Critical mastery

He like any Sword and Board Fighter starts off a little choppy...But after level 7 you will notice your Fighter start to take off and really be somebody to be feared. Force your opponent to attack you by pissing it off with damage, If he ignores you punish him for not paying you attention Via Bull rushes and attacks.

But I hope you find what you are looking for and can have as much fun as I did playing a Sword and Board fighter.

[Killer Angel]

Beforehand, I'd like to say I already tried to post this but can't find it anywhere, so if I look like a reposting moron, have mercy.
ahem.
I need help with an effective sword and board fighter in pathfinder. I already know I should take Shielded fighter. My problem is I want it to be PFS eligible, so no house rules allowed sadly (or else there would be very little problem). I know I need Improved Shield Bash. I will need TWF. But the problem is hitting. Until 5th level, I can't use a heavy shield bash without going into the negatives in to hit modifiers. Also, How can I create an effective character without instantly dropping Int and Cha to 7?

Thanks in advance.

I don't know how much is worth it, but why don't you try to hit hard as a standard 2hw fighter, and with the defence of a shield?
With the quickdraw feat and a quickdraw shield, you can have both.

[Bigbeefie]

But the problem is hitting. Until 5th level, I can't use a heavy shield bash without going into the negatives in to hit modifiers. Also, How can I create an effective character without instantly dropping Int and Cha to 7?

Thanks in advance.

Oh forget to mention you will be shield bashing with a Light Steel shield with a Shield spike at first....Heavy shields count as a heavy weapon....a light shield counts as a light weapon for the purpose of 2 weapon fighting.

So a longsword and LSS will look like +3/+3 to hit at level 1 with a 18 str.

Also when rolling a fighter you will drop int and Cha to 7 but you don't need skill points or any Charismatic fighter that can talk his way out of Fight. But is you go human with Finding Haleen trait then you can still get 3 skills a level which is still fantasitic even for a fighter....but the cha and int will get you no where in a fight. You are a FIGHTER after all.

[Meth In a Mine]

Thanks for all the advice!
I noticed that the sword and shield ranger can get shield slam at level 2, could that be a viable 2-level dip? It'd net me some other benefits too but that is besides the point.

@JHshadon Yeah that's a good point, since the archetype gives up a lot of special abilities, making it a hard choice. I'm open to change.

@Killer Angel I prefer to go without the quickdraw since I'm not just looking for good defense, I'm looking for a change from the 2-hander style I usually do as barbarian. I guess the Shield Slam ability is what really sold me.

@bigbeefie I understand your point, but in my PFS experience, there is often an inordinate amount of negotiation, and I would like to feel more like I'm of at least SOME use out of combat, or else I'll just feel like I should have stayed home and let the Bard or Sorcerer players on the wait list take my spot. If these adventures had more combat, I'd dump Int and Cha like rocks.
EDIT: Upon thinking about it, you're right. I'll work on my build and get back to you.

[Bigbeefie]

Thanks for all the advice!
I noticed that the sword and shield ranger can get shield slam at level 2, could that be a viable 2-level dip? It'd net me some other benefits too but that is besides the point.

@JHshadon Yeah that's a good point, since the archetype gives up a lot of special abilities, making it a hard choice. I'm open to change.

@Killer Angel I prefer to go without the quickdraw since I'm not just looking for good defense, I'm looking for a change from the 2-hander style I usually do as barbarian. I guess the Shield Slam ability is what really sold me.

@bigbeefie I understand your point, but in my PFS experience, there is often an inordinate amount of negotiation, and I would like to feel more like I'm of at least SOME use out of combat, or else I'll just feel like I should have stayed home and let the Bard or Sorcerer players on the wait list take my spot. If these adventures had more combat, I'd dump Int and Cha like rocks.

I wouldn't Dip ranger....I would go either fighter or Ranger and dip fighter after 10 or not at all dip. If you go fighter and try to dip ranger you loose your two weapon warrior Archetype which is super strong for sword and board.
If you go ranger you get less feats overall but some of your core feats come earlier without pre-reqs thanks to weapon style. But you loose the overall damage output of the fighter get to all enemies. Instead you have favored enemies which you will excel at fighting then against non-favored enemies you will not be doing as well as the fighter can. So it really become a trade off in do you want to specialize in a few select targets or do you want to fight well against all things? I tend to like the fighter because of the ability to fight anything well.



but in my PFS experience, there is often an inordinate amount of negotiation, and I would like to feel more like I'm of at least SOME use out of combat
Well that is the downfall of a fighter. Your not the negotiator, skill monkey, or knowledge whore. No you are there for when the party can't talk their way out of engaging. You are there to end encounters and fights. You can still RP a flavorful character offering advice, suggestions, Morals but your not going to be making skill checks to see if your social skills actually worked. Actually the only social skill you get on your list is Intimidate which you can either take a feat to apply Strength to the skill or skip all together as people tend to hate being intimidated and usually get violent when they are intimidated.


least SOME use out of combat, or else I'll just feel like I should have stayed home and let the Bard or Sorcerer players on the wait list take my spot

We have a fighter in our non-PFS game that has a 7 int and a 8 cha. He opens doors with his 30 STR and a adamantine morningstar we have named "The Master Key" as he breaks the door down in 1-2 swings. Our group lacks a rogue so we don't have a lock picker. He also is the subject of the Paladin's Diplomacy. (just showing the brute off to convince people to loosen their lips and give up some information). Without a rogue we have him lead us through dungeons just taking the damage from traps if and when they come....so he gets to choose where the entire group goes in the dungeon and is our non-magical trap-finder. (The wizard's arcane sight picks up magical traps) So there is 4 examples of Out of Combat use you can have without needing skills. Not to mention if your the Fighter doing all the talking and the fighting what the hell is the other 3 people in your group doing? As a team player you have to be willing to let other team mates shine at things like solving puzzles, being the face, and letting them use their skills so they don't take the feeling of "I should have stayed home or rolled up a fighter that can do everything I rolled my character to do" That way of thinking is a 2 edged sword and can work both ways.

[Meth In a Mine]

Not to mention if your the Fighter doing all the talking and the fighting what the hell is the other 3 people in your group doing?

I see your point. Thanks for the advice. I'm looking at:

Dwarf Fighter, Str 16, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skill: 1 Point in Intimidate (to give that valuable +3, nothing more).
Feats: TWF, Improved Shield Bash (Both of those feats are 100% essential, I'm sure you'd agree)
Traits: Indomitable Will, Armor Expert
Archetype: Either None, TWFighter, or maybe Phalanx Soldier
Equipment: Scale Mail, Light Spiked Steel Shield (b/c d3's are for acid splash) and Dwarven Waraxe or Longsword (or some sort of pike if I go phalanx soldier). Any remaining gold will be spent on stuff like a bedroll, rope, and other miscellaneous stuff.

[Bigbeefie]

I see your point. Thanks for the advice. I'm looking at:

Dwarf Fighter, Str 16, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skill: 1 Point in Intimidate (to give that valuable +3, nothing more).
Feats: TWF, Improved Shield Bash (Both of those feats are 100% essential, I'm sure you'd agree)
Traits: Indomitable Will, Armor Expert
Archetype: Either None, TWFighter, or maybe Phalanx Soldier
Equipment: Scale Mail, Light Spiked Steel Shield (b/c d3's are for acid splash) and Dwarven Waraxe or Longsword (or some sort of pike if I go phalanx soldier). Any remaining gold will be spent on stuff like a bedroll, rope, and other miscellaneous stuff.

Yes both feats are essential to your build.

Dwarf is a good solid race to choose from other then human. I like Indomitable Faith as on a fighter as Will saves are the roughest of all for them.

I do not like armor expert if your not going with an archetype as once you hit your armor training or Mithral armors the trait becomes faded out fast and wasting space on your paper. I prefer the Of the Society that gives the +1 to Armor while wearing Medium & heavy armor. It works from levels 1-20 and boosts one of your main mitigation to damage your AC.

As far as Archetypes the Phalanx kinda pushes you towards using a polearm and spear. Reach weapons are awesome but you can not shield bash at reach. Kinda hurts the 2 weapon fighting when using your reach ability. If you decided to not go the Spear/polearm route then you loose out on further Archetype abilites that replace your Fighter class features. SO you end up using only stand firm (occasionally) and Shield other (occasionally).

My advice will either be straight Fighter or two weapon Warrior archetype. And considering all the abilities Two weapon fighter archetype gives you; you would actually be less effective as a straight fighter trying to overcome the penalities for 2 weapon fighting. Penalities include: -2 to attack rolls, Can't swing both weapons on attack of opportunities, Moving you only get 1 weapon swing as a standard action.

Two weapon warrior also will allow you at some point to start using a Heavy shield in the off hand and treat it as light upping your damage a little more. After being enlarged (which you should always be for bull rushing and damage purposes) you will be Shield bashing with a 1d8 and if using a Long sword be swinging 2d6 in the main hand. Adding your str to both main and off hand.

Also two weapon warrior doesn't focus on a single weapons training....instead it gives you:


Twin Blades (Ex)

At 5th level, a two-weapon warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a full-attack with two weapons or a double weapon. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 5th.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 1.

And


Improved Balance (Ex)

At 11th level, the attack penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by –1 for a two-weapon warrior. Alternatively, he may use a one-handed weapon in his off-hand, treating it as if it were a light weapon with the normal light weapon penalties.
This ability replaces Armor Training 3.

Those are my basic ideas on the archetypes verses straight fighter.

[Killer Angel]

@Killer Angel I prefer to go without the quickdraw since I'm not just looking for good defense, I'm looking for a change from the 2-hander style I usually do as barbarian. I guess the Shield Slam ability is what really sold me.


Right, I can see that, but if you have plenty of feats, it's an option... just in case you need to deal DAMAGE. :smallwink: