Some help with playing a competent wizard?

[Balor01]

Hey playground,

I am bad at optimizing. Just - bad. Also, I have read Ninjas guide to how to be a Batman and several other guides. It is just that I - as many others - am unable to in a good way sum up the parts that is 3.5 caster. I have a feeling I use only parts of this "Ferrari".

Still, for our current (pretty HARD MODE) campaign, I decided to play a Wizard Diviner that will eventually evolve into an archmage. I asked DM for help and I think we have set up a competent wizard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=750817) (feats and that jazz) that can advance nicely, it is just that I have a serious feeling of my wizard fiercely struggling to do things.

My party: Warblade, Cleric summoner, Druid focused on wildshape

Currently, my battle mode is as follows: Go invisible(Vanisher cloak), buff melee fighters with Enlarge person. If my wiz is say, Glitterdusted, instantly go mirror image.

Then if we fight a single strong enemy, I fire rays at it and eventually Slow and if these are large mobs, then Grease, Glitterdust and Sculpted Glitterdust come into play.

Now ... thats about it. I am supposed to be a Diviner, but so far I have divined exactly ... zero stuff. Also, I feel my "spell ammo bank" is pretty small. Should I be making my own scrolls?

Also, last night I was faced with a challenge I have failed MISERABLY.

An enemy cleric was tied up in a dungeon and I wanted to get to him, cast charm person on him and interrogate him but ... I could not bypass/elude a simple lvl 1 guard, I could not unlock the cell or make the guy friendly. In short: I sucked hard.

Now there is a silver lining to this dark dark cloud. In the village where we are staying, there is an artificer. This guy can make pretty much any magic item and/or scroll I want.

Got any ideas, playground? I cannot cast spells but I can transcribe all into my spellbook.

I'd like to know what spells should i learn - ranging from combat to Divine to utility. One of the worst flaws of my char is low CHA. You can imagine how conversations go with my wiz.

Generally, I feel, I need some "general" or "wide metagame" advice then "Take Nerveskitter and Shivering Touch". Currently I feel like out-of-PHB-wiz but that is just not enough and falls flat on its face.

Thanks

Secret level question: How does wizard deal with an opponent with Iron heart surge?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yes, you should be scribing scrolls for spells you don't need that often and at the earliest levels to help supplement your spell slots.

At the lower levels you can't do everything[b]. You have to pick a style to go with until middlish level when you have the slots to do really divergent things.

I'll get back to you with more specifics after I look over your character sheet.

So what's up with the spell focuse (transmutation)? Unless it's prerequisite to something it's usually not worth the feat.

Your spell loadout doesn't look too bad, if a little all over the place. The book, what I could read of it (no french, sorry), looks a little light for sixth level. Did you count your level up freebies against your WBL?

I wouldn't worry about the seeming lack of power from your divinations just yet. The good ones come online next level.

Here's a few general wizardry tips to keep in mind:

Prepared casters live and die on how much foreknowledge they can garner. Luckily the spells you've got coming up in the next few levels is going to make gathering that information a lot easier than it otherwise might be.

Even outside of divinations getting somebody in the group or a hireling running gather information checks to get info about where you're going and/or who you'll soon be dealing with is often a good idea. Just remember that observing a system changes the system. Gathering information tends to let those you're looking into know someone's looking into them.

This one's important; wizards have a nearly unique ability to prepare spells mid-day. After you've had your 8 hours rest, you take 1 hour to prepare spells. You don't have to prepare spells in all of your slots during that hour. If you leave some slots open, you can take 15 minutes later in the day to prepare spells in them. You can fill as many as 1/4 of your total spell slots in this way on any given 15 minute mid-day preparation set. This is a -great- way to make sure you have exactly the spell you need as long as you don't need it [b]right now. Scribing scrolls is how you deal with the ones you don't need much but need them "right now" when you do.

[Balor01]

Splendid. Just the stuff I needed. Also, more comments are very welcome.

[bekeleven]

Spontaneous Divination (CC, p 53): lose a bonus feat, can spontaneously cast divination spells.
Knock off Scribe Scroll in exchange for Spontaneous Divination. By sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level, spontaneously cast any divination spell. Now, as written, this has a number of implications, sorted from least to most cheese:


No requirement for spells known. Save your spellbook slots, you have access to all divination slots ever! Raw Legality: Seems intended. Alternative: Fill your spellbook. Pages are still cheaper than knowstones and runestaves.
As written, you go by spell level, not slot level. This means that if you fill all specialist slots with detect magic, you could only sac them for other 0-levels. However, Heightened detect magic is legit. RAW Legality: High. Alternative: Know at least 1 divination spell per spell level.
The ACF clearly states "Any spell of the divination school [of equal or lower level]." No requirement that the spell be a wizard spell, or - strictly speaking - arcane. RAW Legality: "It doesn't say I can't!" Alternative: Don't cheese.


Going by strict RAW, I'm not sure you can metamagic the spontaneous spells, which is the largest drawback.

[Balor01]

@bekeleven

In despite of good intentions, this is not the info I need. Build with pre-determined feats will remain the same. I need grand-scale advice like the ones Kelb_Pantera gave me. Thanks anyway.

[Aracor]

Knock off Scribe Scroll in exchange for Spontaneous Divination. By sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level, spontaneously cast any divination spell. Now, as written, this has a number of implications, sorted from least to most cheese:


No requirement for spells known. Save your spellbook slots, you have access to all divination slots ever! Raw Legality: Seems intended. Alternative: Fill your spellbook. Pages are still cheaper than knowstones and runestaves.
As written, you go by spell level, not slot level. This means that if you fill all specialist slots with detect magic, you could only sac them for other 0-levels. However, Heightened detect magic is legit. RAW Legality: High. Alternative: Know at least 1 divination spell per spell level.
The ACF clearly states "Any spell of the divination school [of equal or lower level]." No requirement that the spell be a wizard spell, or - strictly speaking - arcane. RAW Legality: "It doesn't say I can't!" Alternative: Don't cheese.


Going by strict RAW, I'm not sure you can metamagic the spontaneous spells, which is the largest drawback.
None of these are correct according to the errata for Spontaneous Divination.

Page 52 – Spontaneous Divination - Benefit [Revision]
The first sentence should instead read, “You can spontaneously cast any spell you know from the divination school by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level."
So it has to be wizard/sorcerer spells, and you have to know the spells. It's still GOOD, but it's not nearly as good as people seem to think.

~Aracor

[Rebel7284]

Spontaneous Divination is of middling utility to a diviner anyway...

Did you ban evocation? If yes, good =)

The thing that makes wizard better than a sorcerer is indeed planning. Find out everything you can about what problems you can encounter in advance.

Lack of spells is an issue during early levels for most wizards (outside of focused specialist conjurers), but that will slowly diminish.

[Rastapopolos]

And you cant swap scribe scroll for Spont Div. It needs to be a 5th level wizard bonus feat or higher. So his build will never qualify for it unless he goes back to wizard for 2 levels (although if you do go back wizard GET spont div. its SOOO good, being able to spontaneously cast alter fortune will keep you alive forever and make your party love you).

As for your build you seem to be missing some of the powerhouse spells avaliable, prestigitation, nerveskitter, benign/baleful transposition, detect thoughts, alter self, unseen servant, stinking cloud, unluck, alter fortune (alter fortune is good enough for me to mention twice), You have ray of stupidity but its not memorised? Also you really dont need to waste a slot with identify there all the time. What schools have you banned? I cant seem to find them on your sheet.

Secret answer. Wizards deal with adepts with Iron Heart Surge by denying them the standard action they need to initiate it (stinking cloud), or by exercising mental control of them so they dont initiate it. Or faking them out, let them waste thier iron heart surge on your grease or glitterdust then hit them with somthing big before they can recover it.

EDIT- with unluck+alter fortune you can make the BBEG roll 4 saves against your save-or-die :smallcool:

[ericgrau]

It's usually all about spell selection. You have haste, web, and a load of mediocre spells. You did make glitterdust larger which helps its small area, but there are others that are large in the first place. And you only get one haste which then leaves you with web and more web. If you don't have opposing surfaces you gamble on a glitterdust and if they pass their save or are immune you're inneffective, if they fail their save you're effective.

You also need more 1st level hour/levels, maybe 2nd level ones too. Hour/levels mean more actions because you cast them in the morning and recast them to keep them up 24 hours, and actions are king. A lesser rod of extend spell helps, or the feat. Spell compendium has some nice swift/immediate spells like swift fly too. Most of them are good.

Good 3rd level PHB spells: sleet storm, fireball, haste, empowered ray of enfeeblement

Later (~level 7+): Leomund's tiny hut, greater magic weapon, flame arrow, empowered magic missile
Divination: Clairvoyance (scout the next room)
Later divination: Arcane sight
Good 2nd level PHB spells: web, false life, invisibility (or better yet wand it and bypass entire encounters), levitate (aka rescue plot point + rescue ally + fly substitute rolled into one)

Later: see invisibility, scorching ray, alter self, rope trick
Divination: locate object (aka locate plot point)
Scrolls: bull's strength (if 2+ buff rounds), spider climb
Good 1st level PHB spells: mage armor, unseen servant, silent image, feather fall

Scrolls: hold portal, identify, floating disk (caster level 3rd)
Divination: identify

Really you can scroll everything non-combat 1st level since they're so cheap. Notice how I load up 3rd level spells with the power houses and leave utility and hour/levels to lower levels. That's why such spells are listed on the "later" list for 2nd and 3rd level, and why 1st level has no "later" list because that's all it is. The focus on making the most of your actions are why a lot of ok spells are missing entirely. An action is too expensive to go halfway. If you don't bring a swift end to a foe or multiple foes it isn't worth your time. There's no such thing as minor setup with stuff like fly and low level single target in-combat buffs when most of a fight happens in 3 rounds (levitate only barely makes the list b/c it's triple purpose and not on your highest level). Even when you do get buff rounds, they are limited and you need to prioritize.

I'm running low on time and there are a lot of good 4th level spell suggestions in these forums so I'll let others take over there.

It's hard to be a diviner because it's hard to get power house spells from a utility school. You really only need a small number of those spells for between combat support. I'd usually prepare only your one required divination spell and be a general purpose mage otherwise. Take advantage of the fact that you only lost one school.

[Diarmuid]

Using divination to it's fullest extend also requires a lot of cooperation from the DM, and a lot of time to prepare for things.

I have yet to play in a game where the PC's are presented with a problem where they always have a few days to divine everything there is to know about their enemy, their tactics, the surroundings, etc.

And a lot of that information being available is generally assumed to be gotten from "contact other plane". Using basic scrying alerts your target that something is happening as they are forced to make a saving throw, and any time you are forced to make a save you are aware of this fact (per RAW). No, this isnt a guaranteed "hey someone just tried to scry on me" but it certainly can trigger a wide variety of reactions.

While the batman wizard sitting in his tower can likely prepare for just about any given scenario given enough time, trying to make that actually happen in a game where you're playing with other people is difficult to pull off in my opinion.

Similarly, making all those scrolls takes time. Per RAW, every single scroll you make takes at least a single day to create. No matter if it's a single 1st level spell, 1 day minimum. Again, this is a lot of time your teammates are unlikely to want to sit around and wait for.

[ericgrau]

While the batman wizard sitting in his tower can likely prepare for just about any given scenario given enough time, trying to make that actually happen in a game where you're playing with other people is difficult to pull off in my opinion.
Agreed.

Basically the forums taught you all these omg-u-other-guyz-can't-touch-me-lol negation & support tricks so you have a solid stone foundation... but barely any friggin' house to actually contribute to a party with. I'm so very sorry you banned evocation too. You have a party cleric so you could have banned abjuration without losing anything. Or 3 other schools before it, really, but abjuration is nearly zero loss in your case (though you can manage with any school missing). You get a minimum defense & utility and focus offense in a party, not the reverse. And your offense options aren't mutually exclusive; it's good to have more choices to pick from. Time and importance for defense OTOH is much more limited. Being untouchable doesn't help when your allies aren't.

[Slipperychicken]

While a wizard can theoretically do stuff like open locks, talk to people, disable traps, and kill people, it takes some preparation which he doesn't always have in real play, his party members will generally do those things better than he can, and will usually do it more times per day. As such, a wizard is not a one-man army. He is fundamentally a support character and should focus on his core competencies (control spells, utility spells, and knowledge skills), leaving the rest to his teammates.

Also, he should either craft or purchase scrolls of every spell which he would not normally prepare, but may by some weird stroke of fortune come in handy (yes, this includes even things like Levitate, Remove Blindness/Deafness, and Dispel Magic). Really, they can save your character's life, or can be used to terrifying effect, sometimes trashing boss-fights or even an entire campaign's plot with a single well-placed spell.

Bonus: By RAW, IHS still requires the initiator to perform actions to use it. You need to make sure he can't take Standard actions. You can generally do this with a spell like Color Spray or hold person, which basically end the fight. Even if the GM lets the initiator use it while helpless and unable to take actions, he still blew a standard action to get out, which means your fighters have a round to wail on him with impunity. Also, IHS only removes one effect at a time, and he needs to get that maneuver refreshed if he wants to use it twice (as a Warblade, this means spending either a Standard or Full-round action to attack or flourish), so landing two consecutive/simultaneous SoL spells should wreck him.

[Rastapopolos]

Another thing about playing a wizard optimally is lateral thinking. If you take kelbs advice and leave a slot a level open that gives you loads of different tools you can throw at a situation with only 15 mins prep time. A wizard is not what he has memorised its what he can faesibly do in the time given. Take your lvl 1 guard problem. With some more spells in your book there would be multiple ways to approach this problem after 15 mins. Im curious about what you tried. Especially as you dont know charm person...

My favourite way of busting people out of prison is using baleful transposition to swap the detanee with the guard :smallamused:

[Diarmuid]

Actually, he listed that he was going to charm the cleric that was imprisoned, so a single extra memorization of charm person, or a pearl of power would have enabled him to also attempt to charm the guard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Completely forgot you asked about dealing with IHS. Unfortunately, that maneuver is so poorly written that you really need the DM to properly define its function and limitations before you can meaningfully tackle it. All RAW says is that it does..... something that's woefully unclear...... and gives you a +2 bonus on to-hit for one turn.

The popular interpretation is that it can end the entire spell as long as the initiator's subject to it in any way as long as he can still move and take a standard action but this is not the only interpretation to be made without changing RAW, probably not what's intended, and is definitely wonky as hell.

Get back to us with the DM's ruling on how the maneuver works and I'm sure the community will be happy to help you figure out what to do about it.

(and have a 6 to 12 page argument on how that ruling is right/wrong, and an additional 3-4 pages on how ToB is/is not broken.)

[Slipperychicken]

(and have a 6 to 12 page argument on how that ruling is right/wrong, and an additional 3-4 pages on how ToB is/is not broken.)

You and I both know those arguments would happen simultaneously, on the same pages. Also, there's a roughly 2% change of devolving into 1d4 pages of passive-aggressive ad-hominem before a mod shuts it down.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You and I both know those arguments would happen simultaneously, on the same pages. Also, there's a roughly 2% change of devolving into 1d4 pages of passive-aggressive ad-hominem before a mod shuts it down.

I know they'd take place at the same time if they both occur but there's at least a chance, albeit a slim one, that the "ToB is/is not awesome/sucks" will fail to manifest alongside the "that ruling is right/wrong" topic. I was just accounting for the difference in page count.

I actually successfully killed that argument before it got started once. I felt mildly accomplished for that.

[ericgrau]

For iron heart surge all the spells I listed except empowered ray of enfeeblement work. He might break a sleet storm or web depending on DM interpretation, but since sleet storm has no save and web works well even on a passed save, you can reliably trade actions again next turn and recast one or the other. You blow your turn but so does he, and in between turns you still hit his allies so you come out ahead of him. Empowered ray of enfeeblement doesn't have a save either but it has an attack roll so you can't trade actions effectively with it, plus it only hits 1 target.

[Rastapopolos]

Actually, he listed that he was going to charm the cleric that was imprisoned, so a single extra memorization of charm person, or a pearl of power would have enabled him to also attempt to charm the guard.

aye that works but the character sheet he linked doesnt have charm person in his spell book... Maybe thats not his full list of spells, it does look woefully short.

[Balor01]

Lots of answers … and cool ones. Thanks guys.

First:
@Rastapopolos

Im curious about what you tried. Especially as you dont know charm person...

I entered the dungeon, intended to charm person the guard, float into the cell via Gaseous form, cast charm person on captor, then Zone of truth and make most spectacular interrogation ever.

It looked like this: I entered the prison, did not have Charm person, could not persuade guard, siad i will "guard" the captor, was awoken after 2 hours because they tried to keep captor awake, so he could not memorize spells and then I left. It was utter. Fukken. Fail.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Lots of answers … and cool ones. Thanks guys.

First:
@Rastapopolos


I entered the dungeon, intended to charm person the guard, float into the cell via Gaseous form, cast charm person on captor, then Zone of truth and make most spectacular interrogation ever.

It looked like this: I entered the prison, did not have Charm person, could not persuade guard, siad i will "guard" the captor, was awoken after 2 hours because they tried to keep captor awake, so he could not memorize spells and then I left. It was utter. Fukken. Fail.

Why.... did you base your plan around a spell you don't know? That just seems like poor planning.

[Story]

I entered the dungeon, intended to charm person the guard, float into the cell via Gaseous form, cast charm person on captor, then Zone of truth and make most spectacular interrogation ever.


FYI, Zone of Truth is pretty much useless. There's no way to know if they passed the save, and even if they didn't, they're aware of the spell and can just avoid saying anything.

Also, Identify is useless if MiC is in play because you can just get an Artificer's Monocle, which is faster and cheaper.

Also, there's little reason to ever prepare a spell with a >15 minute casting time since you can prepare it when needed anyway. The same applies to any noncombat spell that you don't expect to need in a hurry. Preparing 3 Shrink Items to handle the loot you expect to find? Just leave the slots open. I learned this the hard way.

P.S. When you get to level 7, I'd recommend preparing Polymorph several times. There's almost nothing it can't do.

[Spore]

and even if they didn't, they're aware of the spell and can just avoid saying anything.


No, they're not. Not every guy from the get-go even has Spellcraft.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, they're not. Not every guy from the get-go even has Spellcraft.

The spell description explicitly says that affected subjects are aware of the effect.

[Diarmuid]

Not to mention they're at least aware the had to make a save against something.

[Rastapopolos]

... You don't have zone of truth either. It's also a cleric spell how were you going to cast it? What you do have however is detect thoughts to read the clerics mind from outside the cell.

[Slipperychicken]

The spell description explicitly says that affected subjects are aware of the effect.

Then just slap the guy until he talks. Bring a pair of pliers if you need to.

Or cast Detect Thoughts while asking him about it (and before you say something about "just think about steak", disguising your surface thoughts takes a DC 100 Bluff check).

[ericgrau]

Invisibility, enter, detect thoughts, invisibility, leave. Or if they let you in just detect thoughts.

[Alefiend]

Why.... did you base your plan around a spell you don't know? That just seems like poor planning.

Even if he knew the spell, it was a poor choice. Using a Will save spell vs. a character with a strong Will save and high Wisdom is a fool's game.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not for nothing, but the ultimate in magical information extraction is in Lords of Madness; the thought extruder.

Polymorph into a mind-flayer, open the subject's skull in a few spots, apply thought extruder, get whatever information you're after with no chance of failure as long as it's somewhere in the subject's mind. A wand of restoration is helpful as well if you have a lot of questions to ask.

It's not fast or cheap but it is absolutely foolproof.

[ericgrau]

Even if he knew the spell, it was a poor choice. Using a Will save spell vs. a character with a strong Will save and high Wisdom is a fool's game.

Prepare two copies. Or 3. He's tied up. Plus he's an NPC. He has something like a +5 to his will save, maybe +7. It's at least a 50:50 shot.

[Balor01]

Why.... did you base your plan around a spell you don't know? That just seems like poor planning.
Well, I entered all smart and stuff "I'm omnipowerful wizard!" aaaand ... yes :I

Poor planning.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, couple of questions:

Have you ever played a caster before? Which one(s)?

How's your capacity to remember all the things your caster can do?

How's your capacity to remember the things they can't?

[Slipperychicken]

Well, I entered all smart and stuff "I'm omnipowerful wizard!" aaaand ... yes :I

Poor planning.

Yeah, a wizard's omnipowerfulness comes from his ability to prepare for everything. This requires an enormous expenditure of cognitive resources on your part to figure out all things you need to do, such as learning spells, getting scrolls, creating contingencies, planning your moves, and so on.

But once you've spent, like, OOC weeks planning your wizard and memorizing his options, it all pays off when you curbstomp everything the game has to offer. After a while of that, you'll probably get bored of winning all the time, and just decide to play a fighter or something which can actually be challenged.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, a wizard's omnipowerfulness comes from his ability to prepare for everything. This requires an enormous expenditure of cognitive resources on your part to figure out all things you need to do, such as learning spells, getting scrolls, creating contingencies, planning your moves, and so on.

But once you've spent, like, OOC weeks planning your wizard and memorizing his options, it all pays off when you curbstomp everything the game has to offer. After a while of that, you'll probably get bored of winning all the time, and just decide to play a fighter or something which can actually be challenged.

Unless of course you can process those things faster and your DM steps up his game.

It's unquestionably a more complex game when you step up as a wizard but that doesn't have to mean that it's uncomfortably difficult to accomplish or that the game becomes excessively easy.

[Story]

Or you could go around fighting dungeons designed for players 4 levels higher. Though this does tend to just turn everything into rocket tag.

[Balor01]

So, couple of questions:
Have you ever played a caster before? Which one(s)?

Clerics up to level 6. Very non-optimised.



How's your capacity to remember all the things your caster can do?

Poor.



How's your capacity to remember the things they can't?

Poor.

Also, anyone can point me to a BASIC thread of Polymorph? There are THREADS UPON THREADS on the theme, but I'd just need basics.

thanks

[ericgrau]

Polymorph is a pain in the butt to pull off without optimization into some abusive forms like war troll. And even then it's a lot of bookkeeping you need to do ahead of time. But if you want to use it then look for some good forms and see which ones are ok with your DM.

For 4th level I'd get the standard battlefield control spells that are so popular around here.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Clerics up to level 6. Very non-optimised.


Poor.


Poor.

Woof. Clerics are pretty tough on their chassis alone. Doing poorly on spell selection is much less problematic for them than for a wizard. I guess practice makes perfect, eh?

However, when you retire this character, if you want to try an arcanist again, maybe go with a sorcerer or one of the list casters; warmage, dread necormancer, and beguiler. They're a bit more user-friendly if not quite as world-shattering. Sorcerers are only -just- a step behind wizards anyway.


Also, anyone can point me to a BASIC thread of Polymorph? There are THREADS UPON THREADS on the theme, but I'd just need basics.

thanks

Honestly, I'd avoid polymorph until you've got a better handle on what the character can do natively. Polymorph just makes things a good bit more complicated without adding a whole lot more power than you already have. Its encounter-ending reputation is a matter of it being able to pick whichever extraordinary attacks and physical abilities would be most useful ATM.

Summoning has many of the same benefits and it's -much- easier to understand. Gives you better action economy too.