Chaos shuffle opinion

[D4rkh0rus]

Whats the general DM opinion on the chaos souffle?

If you normally dont allow such a thing, and a player asked you to use it for a perquisite feat, what would you do?

Do you allow but limit it to a number of times per character?

What about adding in extra feat fuel like locations?

[hicegetraenk]

If I don't allow things, they are not allowed under any circumstances. If a banned feat is needed as a prerequisite, I change these to something that is allowed and makes sense. "Changing things in cooperation with the DM so you can play what you want"-ftw

[Twilightwyrm]

Because I have a generally more lax approach to retraining (see: PHB II), which makes a lot more sense in terms attempting this sort of thing, no I do not allow it.

[Brookshw]

I'm fine with retraining but the shuffle I consider stupidly cheesy and wouldn't permit. I'm not sure what you mean regarding the prerequisites.
a chaos souffle on the other hand sounds awesome, roll a profession gourmet cooking check, dc 20 :smalltongue:

[Telonius]

I would allow it ... with the caveat that repeated use of the spell(s) has a strong chance of attracting the attention of powerful extraplanar beings (both from the Abyss and other lawful and good-aligned planes).

I do allow rebuild quests.

[Piggy Knowles]

I allow retraining and PsyRef is common in my current campaign world. I'd allow the chaos shuffle, but only for feats gained from level up. So, you could use it as a more expensive PsyRef that doesn't require you to have qualified for the feat at the level you gained it, but you couldn't use it to, say, turn an elf's racial weapon proficiencies into four bonus feats.

[Togo]

I don't allow it.

If someone wants to rebuild their character for some reason, then I'm reasonably sympathetic.

[Snowbluff]

Did you pay resources? Yeah, you can do that.

The tricky part is magic locations and other sources. I only let each source of feats only apply once. There's only so many times you can take a little vacation to the Otyugh Hole so often.

[OldTrees1]

I do not allow Dark Chaos Shuffle under any circumstances.

If a player wants to retrain their feats then I let them reselect their feats provided they qualify at the level they would have gotten the feat. If this would cause a major change in their character then I delay the change until I engineer an appropriate event to maintain verisimilitude.

If a player has a character concept that I am willing to accept but they cannot find a way to get their character concept feats to fit into their feat slots, then I will likely be flexible in expanding the bonus feat lists of the classes they are taking. (Since I play with 2 flaws each, players should not have a problem getting all their 1st level feats at 1st level).

[Cruiser1]

Whats the general DM opinion on the chaos souffle? Do you allow but limit it to a number of times per character?
Yes, I allow it, but with appropriate rulings (presumably RAI) to make it not a ridiculous way to get free feats (which means you can do it as many times as you want). Feats are of a particular type, and can only be shuffled into feats of a similar type. For example, a Wizard bonus feat can only be shuffled into a different metamagic or item creation feat. Also if the source of the original feat goes away, so does the shuffled feat. For example, if you give yourself a Fighter bonus feat by casting Heroics, not only can it only be shuffled into a different Fighter bonus feat, but once the duration of Heroics ends the shuffled feat goes away too.

What about adding in extra feat fuel like locations?
Yes, I allow them. Magical Locations have a listed value, so if that value is taken into WBL then they're generally balanced. For example, if you put Otyugh Hole in your background, it costs 3000 gp of your WBL. If you want to visit it after character creation, don't be surprised if you have to pay 3000 gp in research/travel costs to find out where one is located and get yourself thrown into it for a week. And of course a feat gained from Otyugh Hole can only be chaos shuffled into one of Iron Will, Menacing Demeanor, or Skill Focus (Intimidate).

[Seerow]

I allow retraining and PsyRef is common in my current campaign world. I'd allow the chaos shuffle, but only for feats gained from level up. So, you could use it as a more expensive PsyRef that doesn't require you to have qualified for the feat at the level you gained it, but you couldn't use it to, say, turn an elf's racial weapon proficiencies into four bonus feats.

This. I would even go so far as to let someone trade out a bonus feat for another bonus feat that the original feat could have been (ie a Fighter can trade out one fighter bonus feat for another fighter bonus feat). But stuff like trading elven weapon proficiencies for extra feats, trading a Wizard's scribe scroll for whatever else you feel like, that sort of thing? Nope.

[TypoNinja]

I'd allow it, but with story limitations. You are at least temporarily, embracing the dark chaos, you have chosen to embody the essence of the abyss.

Depending on who you worship, or what class you are, your Deity may take a dim view of this path to power.

A Paladin is likely to fall attempting this, a Cleric to a Lawful Deity is going to have to explain himself, or might find that one morning his memory contains nothing but anti-chaos spells as a pointed hint.

Rules work, nothing says they work in isolation.

[Malimar]

PCs never get high enough level to cast it themselves, and there aren't really any NPC spellcasters high enough level to cast it, so it's never been a thing in an actual game. But in theory:

I allow it, because I think it's actually pretty neat and fun way to get feats you might not otherwise be able to get.

But it doesn't work on racial proficiency feats. And there are no Elder Evils to devote yourself to for free feats. And free feat locations are hard to find. And so on. You only really get to shun your regular feats from levels.

I also allow PHBII retraining, which makes the Dark Chaos Shuffle redundant for most purposes. Also psychic reformation is available if anybody gets high enough level to manifest it.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't have a problem with the Dark Chaos Shuffle. Feats are generally limited in availability and tend to be less powerful than class features. At the same time, feat choice is one of the best ways to distinguish your <Class> <Level> character from someone else's <Class> <Level> character.

What I do have a problem with is someone choosing a race (prime example being Elf) just for racial bonus feats they can DCS away. That combination is an issue; a Ranger wishing to pick a different feat instead of Endurance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#endurance) is not. After all, every DCS switch requires the character to pony up 4,900 gp to NPC spellcaster(s) for the option.

[Emperor Tippy]

I allow it but I generally disallow infinite feats (can be done via a whole host of methods). No repeated Elder Evils devotions, not repeated trips into the hole, no Heroics fun, etc.

[Amphetryon]

I don't allow it.

If someone wants to rebuild their character for some reason, then I'm reasonably sympathetic.

This. I add an additional caveat that I become less sympathetic the more frequently a given Player seeks to rebuild his/her Character.

[Raendyn]

I would normally say " hit them with the DMG, then ask if they really want to use DCS"

But i will add that I have even given feats for free depending on the situation. the problem is that usually people that want to use DCS are trying to abuse a "legal" way to cheat. I'd prefer for example, to gift them the FR regional feat that since Player's guide to faerun came out has made their runescared berserker prereqs impossible to get for example..

[lunar2]

I'd allow the straight uses of it. trading normal level up feats for other feats. i wouldn't allow the cheesy uses, like trading away racial bonus feats or armor proficiencies. unless the player was simply making a feat whore build, in which case, i'd probably allow it, since feats can only take you so far, anyway, and i kind of want to see one in play. but still, no infinite feats cheese. you can only shuffle feats you actually have.

[lsfreak]

What I do have a problem with is someone choosing a race (prime example being Elf) just for racial bonus feats they can DCS away. That combination is an issue; a Ranger wishing to pick a different feat instead of Endurance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#endurance) is not. After all, every DCS switch requires the character to pony up 4,900 gp to NPC spellcaster(s) for the option.

This is my stance as well.

[nedz]

It's never come up but I might allow it. It might be seen as too cheesy by some of the players though, so I'd want to be careful. As a reward for assisting some chaotic power then it might work.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nah. I don't mind some of the more powerful options in the game but this one goes just a bit beyond the pale for my taste.

Get a psychic reformation and reset your bits and bobs that way if you like but the dark shuffle is out.

A chaos souffle, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable. They're a little light for my taste in deserts but they don't cause any real, in-game problems.

[geekintheground]

for the people who allow PsyRef but not DSC: why? dont they do the same thing?

[FMArthur]

All these groups visit the Otyugh Hole regularly? I think I'm going to start giving out a 'wuss' flaw instead of the iron will feat for visiting the huge overcrowded tourist resort known as the Otyugh Hole...

[lsfreak]

for the people who allow PsyRef but not DSC: why? dont they do the same thing?

No. Chaos shuffling allows you to switch out any feats, including by RAW racial weapon proficiency feats. An elf, allowed full access to chaos shuffling, gets six "bonus" feats just for being an elf, because of the racial bonuses. Bonus Vile feats from devoting yourself to an Elder Evil (normally 1/5/10/15/20th levels) can be shuffled into more useful things, and then you can re-devote yourself and gain all the feats over again, potentially (iirc) giving yourself infinite feats. Various other ways of gaining bonus feats, again, can just be shuffled away into new, better options.

As I said quoting Curmudgeon, I have no problem shuffling class bonus feats like Endurance and Track away into more useful options. Racial feats, regenerating feats, and various other methods, not so much.

[Piggy Knowles]

for the people who allow PsyRef but not DSC: why? dont they do the same thing?

Not at all.

Psychic Reformation requires that you must have been able to make that choice when for each reformed level. You can't PsyRef away a feat you gained at level one for Leadership, for instance, because you didn't qualify for Leadership at level one. Also, you couldn't PsyRef away a feat you gained from taking a level in fighter or psychic warrior for a general feat.

Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos don't have those restrictions. You lose ANY feat for an abyssal heritor feat, including ones granted from classes, such as the monk's Improved Unarmed Strike. Then, when you Shun the Dark Chaos, you replace it with any feat that you qualify for. Not a feat that you qualified for at the time you would have taken the feat, but a feat you qualify for now.

As I mentioned above, I still don't have a problem with the dark chaos feat shuffle in my campaigns, as long as it's used within reason. It's more useful than PsyRef (for feats, at least), but it's also more costly and less widely available. However, there are plenty of abuses to be had, from the oft-mentioned elf (who gains four Martial Proficiency feats because of an odd choice of wording in the PHB) to getting infinite feats by constantly shuffling away Alertness from your familiar, or nabs five feats at a time by constantly re-dedicating yourself to Elder Evils and shuffling away the granted feats, or jumps in and out of the Otyugh Hole, or turns a wand of Heroics into forty bonus feats.

[Crake]

I allow it, but under the explicit rule that the xp cost must be paid via sacrificial XP from the book of vile darkness, and that the player who wants to do the shuffle needs to be the one to collect the sacrifices. Alone.

[Phelix-Mu]

I might allow it, but would require the fluff to be followed. The first step is a trip toward evil, with all those ramifications, the second is a step toward redemption. It really is not an efficient way to rebuild feats; except for the few cases that might not be covered with psyref or a proper rebuild, I'd really discourage the use of this for primarily mechanical benefit.

I mean...the Abyss is all for a bit of optimization, but if it doesn't also give you secret cancer, then I think the Abyss is off its game.

[lunar2]

I allow it, but under the explicit rule that the xp cost must be paid via sacrificial XP from the book of vile darkness, and that the player who wants to do the shuffle needs to be the one to collect the sacrifices. Alone.

why would a not evil spell require evil sacrifices to cast? there is nothing inherently evil about either dark chaos spell, or the abyssal heritor feats themselves. you can even be exalted and cast the spells and/or have the feats. also, needing to get the sacrifices is not a mechanical disadvantage. you are basically giving the character a free solo adventure, which means he's going to pull ahead of the rest of the party. nothing about this house rule makes any sense from either a crunch or fluff perspective.

[Emperor Tippy]

I might allow it, but would require the fluff to be followed. The first step is a trip toward evil, with all those ramifications, the second is a step toward redemption. It really is not an efficient way to rebuild feats; except for the few cases that might not be covered with psyref or a proper rebuild, I'd really discourage the use of this for primarily mechanical benefit.

I mean...the Abyss is all for a bit of optimization, but if it doesn't also give you secret cancer, then I think the Abyss is off its game.

God I'm tired of this fanon.

Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos are not [evil] spells. They don't have the descriptor. They are [Chaotic] Spells.

[olentu]

Eh, it's usually fine by itself. Generally additions that generate too many extra feats are banned, though. The level that constitutes too many depends on the group.

[Karnith]

Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos are not [evil] spells. They don't have the descriptor. They are [Chaotic] Spells.
And, actually, only Embrace the Dark Chaos is a chaotic spell. Shun the Dark Chaos lacks any alignment descriptor.
Which makes sense, when you think about it...
Related fun fact: Embrace the Dark Chaos is a Transmutation spell, while Shun the Dark Chaos is an Abjuration spell.

[Phelix-Mu]

I wasn't implying that the spells themselves are evil, just that there should be alignment ramifications generally for acquiring Abyssal Heritor feats, which I'm pretty sure is actually how they work (though my memory may be faulty...feel free to set me aright).

Again, if it wasn't clear in the OP, this was my personal approach on how to use those spells in the chaos shuffle process. Sorry if I was unclear.

[WhamBamSam]

Not at all.

Psychic Reformation requires that you must have been able to make that choice when for each reformed level. You can't PsyRef away a feat you gained at level one for Leadership, for instance, because you didn't qualify for Leadership at level one. Also, you couldn't PsyRef away a feat you gained from taking a level in fighter or psychic warrior for a general feat.Does it though? It seems to only care about whether you qualify for the feat or skill rank at the time of the reformation. Isn't there a quote that says things of that nature 'have no memory' or something to that effect?

It does limit you in the respect of not being able to turn a class bonus feat or a racial proficiency feat into a feat of your choice though. A fighter feat could be traded in for a better fighter feat that you didn't qualify for at the time, and you could break the skill cap with the help of a Bard using Inspire Greatness, but you couldn't turn a Ranger's Track into Shape Soulmeld.

You also could not, by my reading, get a first level only feat this way unless you PsyRef'ed a first level character. So a 7th level Psion can't just go in to a kobold warren and start turning the whole population into dragons, just the 1st level population, so admittedly most of them.

I'd allow Chaos Shuffling in a relatively high magic setting (so most games in 3.5), even for things like magical location feats or racials, just no double dipping the Otyugh hole or the like.

Though depending on the exact game I want, I might houserule the Sor/Wiz and Cleric spell lists out of existence, or there might not be casters of above 11th level in the world, or I might do any number of other things which would prevent Chaos Shuffling, among other things.

[lunar2]

I wasn't implying that the spells themselves are evil, just that there should be alignment ramifications generally for acquiring Abyssal Heritor feats, which I'm pretty sure is actually how they work (though my memory may be faulty...feel free to set me aright).

Again, if it wasn't clear in the OP, this was my personal approach on how to use those spells in the chaos shuffle process. Sorry if I was unclear.

if you have more than one abyssal heritor feat, you are locked into a chaotic alignment. they have no evil influence, however. so standard paladins would have to be careful not to accidentally get two at a time, same for monks and lawful clerics, but the feats have no moral implications whatsoever. like i said before, you can even be exalted with abyssal heritor feats.

[Andezzar]

Yup, there are very few alignment changing options that actually force you to act according to the alignment (Lycanthropy, Helm of opposite alignment). So unless you are a divine caster, paladin or monk you shouldn't have much problems with bouncing around the alignment grid.

I get that people ban the infinite loops you possibly can do with DCS, but why do people make a distinction between changing more or less useless feats granted by class levels and more or less useless feats granted by a race? Yes an elf gets a lot of feats to play with, but I'm pretty sure with the right combination of classes you could get a similar number.

[Kelb_Panthera]

if you have more than one abyssal heritor feat, you are locked into a chaotic alignment. they have no evil influence, however. so standard paladins would have to be careful not to accidentally get two at a time, same for monks and lawful clerics, but the feats have no moral implications whatsoever. like i said before, you can even be exalted with abyssal heritor feats.

Note, however, the existence of the ordered chaos feat.

[Gemini476]

Note, however, the existence of the ordered chaos feat.

That feat also let's a Chaotic Good [Evil] creature get all of the alignment benefits of a Soulborn at the same time, or let a Chaotic Neutral [Evil or Good] critter get three of the Incarnate's alignment bonuses.

It's a pretty fun feat.

[nedz]

Actually there is a half way house where you allow Embrace the Dark Chaos, but not Shun the Dark Chaos. This keeps the flavour but stops the shuffle.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's not allowed. Period. Ever. End of story.

[Andezzar]

Actually there is a half way house where you allow Embrace the Dark Chaos, but not Shun the Dark Chaos. This keeps the flavour but stops the shuffle.So no redemption for those with Abyssal Heritor Feats?