What do Enlarge and Widen Spell do to Lightning Bolt?

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm having some trouble seeing what does what to spells with a Line AoE. As written it looks like you'd need to apply both feats in order to get a 240-foot Lightning Bolt; that's not right surely?

[Raezeman]

i would say widen spell makes it a 240 ft line, enlarge spell spell does nothing to it.

[XionUnborn01]

To add to what Raezman said, enlarge spell specifies it must have a tange of close, medium, or long to be enlarged which lightning bolt does not, it has a fixed range.

[nedz]

Widen Spell may make the line twice as wide, though this would have no effect. It wouldn't make the bolt longer since the spell has a fixed range of 120' and spell effects cannot exceed their range.


Range

A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.

You would need a metamagic feat to increase the Range. Enlarge Spell can do this, only not for Lightning Bolt.

You could use a Sculpted Fireball, changing it into a 120' line and then to Lightning via Energy Substitution. This would still be a Long Range Spell and so Widen would Work. The some holds for a Sculpted Scintillating Sphere.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ah, missed that bit about Enlarge only applying to the three main types of Range. That solves it (though a little disappointingly obviously). Cheers.

[Fax Celestis]

To add to what Raezman said, enlarge spell specifies it must have a tange of close, medium, or long to be enlarged which lightning bolt does not, it has a fixed range.

...this does, however, hilariously mean lightning bolt is a valid target for Persist.

[nyjastul69]

...this does, however, hilariously mean lightning bolt is a valid target for Persist.

The instantaneous duration disqualifies it for use with persistent spell.

[Cruiser1]

...this does, however, hilariously mean lightning bolt is a valid target for Persist.
No, because Persistent Spell says that, "Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat".

[Fax Celestis]

No, because Persistent Spell says that, "Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat".

Aw, boo, you're right.

(so what you're saying is that we need to find a way to get lightning bolt to have a duration)

[Raezeman]

Aw, boo, you're right.

(so what you're saying is that we need to find a way to get lightning bolt to have a duration)

darn, almost discovered a 'wall of lightning' spell...

[nedz]

darn, almost discovered a 'wall of lightning' spell...

Energy Substitution (Electricity) Wall of Fire.

[Raezeman]

Energy Substitution (Electricity) Wall of Fire.

well sure, if you want to go for the easy solution... :p

[nedz]

well sure, if you want to go for the easy solution... :p

What about Energy Substitution (Electricity) Wall of Stone ?
That's an earth spell, same as Sand and Salt.

Energy Substitution (Electricity) Wall of Water might work too.

Energy Admixture (Electricity) Wall of Water might be fun too.

[Valtu]

What about Energy Substitution (Electricity) Wall of Stone ?
That's an earth spell, same as Sand and Salt.

Energy Substitution (Electricity) Wall of Water might work too.

Energy Admixture (Electricity) Wall of Water might be fun too.

Not sure how that works. I hadn't considered it with earth/water spells. The text for Energy Substitution says you can only choose one of a few energy types to convert spells to, but doesn't say that it only affects spells of those types.

The text is this:
Choose one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, or fire). You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead. An energy substituted spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level. The spell's descriptor changes to the new energy type—for example, a fireball composed of cold energy is an evocation [cold] spell.

[TuggyNE]

What about Energy Substitution (Electricity) Wall of Stone ?
That's an earth spell, same as Sand and Salt.

But it's not an [acid] spell, which is what you'd need; [earth] is not an energy descriptor.

For that matter, since wall of stone does not normally do damage at all, and never does damage directly, even if you did change it to be electric I don't think anything much would happen. Maybe you'd have an instantaneous wall of electricity with hardness 8, however many HP per inch, and a good bit of weight, but that's about all. Fancy, but doesn't do anything.

[Rubik]

You can use Widen Spell to turn a Lightning Bolt into a 10' wide line, or double its length so that it extends in two different directions with your space in the middle, but as noted, Enlarge does nothing at all. And even if Lightning Bolt had a proper range, you'd have to use both feats in tandem to double the length you can fire lightning from your space.

[Phelix-Mu]

In what always struck me as an annoying quirk of the published materials, [earth] doesn't interact with much at all, and [water] is equally shafted. I really wish there were more metamagics and reserve-type things for those descriptors, and maybe more spells with those descriptors in the first place. Here's to shark bolt.:smallwink:

[nedz]

I was just thinking outside of the box a little.

I did go through the Cleric spells which do have valid energy descriptors recently, when working on a character concept, and noted that acid, fire and electricity spells are very rare but there are loads of cold spells. This is due to Frostburn. Most of them don't make much sense in terms of Energy Substitution even though they are valid targets. Metamagic just wasn't considered when many spells were written it seems.

[Telok]

You can use Widen Spell to turn a Lightning Bolt into a 10' wide line

Except that Lightning Bolt isn't a 5' wide line. It's just a line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area).

Even more problematic is the definition of a line.

A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares that the line passes through.

Obviously the line affects any square it enters, but does it affect squares that it touches the edges of? Does it affect squares that it touches the corner of?

Try sitting down with some graph paper and sketching out different areas of effect for the different answers. Then contemplate the fact that you can shoot spells up and down too. What do those look like in three dimensions?

[Hangwind]

Try sitting down with some graph paper and sketching out different areas of effect for the different answers. Then contemplate the fact that you can shoot spells up and down too. What do those look like in three dimensions?

Here's what I have always seen lightning bolt as:

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4994124789908854&pid=1.7:smallamused: Move. Please.

[danzibr]

Here's what I have always seen lightning bolt as:

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4994124789908854&pid=1.7:smallamused: Move. Please.
What's this from?

[Karnith]

What's this from?
It's fanart of A Certain Scientific Railgun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Certain_Magical_Index)'s main character, Mikoto Misaka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A_Certain_Magical_Index_characters#Mikoto_ Misaka) (source here (http://thetetine.deviantart.com/art/Railgun-263930409)?).

[nedz]

You can use Widen Spell to turn a Lightning Bolt into a 10' wide line, or double its length so that it extends in two different directions with your space in the middle,

Neither work.

A Line has notional width: so you can make it wider but it has no effect.

Also: A Lightning Bolt has to start at one corner of your square, so no double bolt.

The exception here would be if you had some weird elliptical geometry going on which bent the squares so that the bolt was never more than 120' from you, but then all bets are off.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ring Gates?

[KillianHawkeye]

A series of magical mirrors specifically designed to bounce magical effects?

[nedz]

A series of magical mirrors specifically designed to bounce magical effects?

You could just grandfather in the Lightning Bolt rule from previous editions: where they bounce off walls (and IIRC get longer).

[Lord Vukodlak]

You could just grandfather in the Lightning Bolt rule from previous editions: where they bounce off walls (and IIRC get longer).
That was always terrifying in Baldur's Gate triggering a lightning bolt trap in a narrow space.

[DarkSonic1337]

You could just grandfather in the Lightning Bolt rule from previous editions: where they bounce off walls (and IIRC get longer).

If I were to theoretically introduce this as a spell "Bouncing Bolt," what level should the spell be?

[nedz]

If I were to theoretically introduce this as a spell "Bouncing Bolt," what level should the spell be?

3rd, same as it always was :smallcool:

[georgie_leech]

That was always terrifying in Baldur's Gate triggering a lightning bolt trap in a narrow space.

Not as terrifying (in game, anyway) as taking 10 minutes to work out the perfect angle to launch it so that you hit the same target 15 times. :smallbiggrin: