Shadow Conjuration and skill checks

[Hiro Quester]

I'm thinking of taking Shadow Conjuration, now that I have leveled up to 14th (Bard10/Sublime Chord4; swapping out a less useful 4th level SC spell).

Apart from the awesome Phantom Steed (fly at 240 ft sec), Create Magic Tattoo seems very useful. (esp. lasting a whole day, so being able to cast it at the end of a day, if I have an unused 4th level spell, and have it last until that time next day).

I know I can ignore casting time and material components for shadow conjurations. But can I also ignore required craft checks?

The original Create Magic Tattoo requires a rank in a craft skill, and a craft DC check to get the really good tattoos: DC 20 for +2 to an ability score and +1 CL.

Being a bard/SC, I haven't put any ranks into craft skills. I can put one rank in this level (with only 14 INT, that gives me a +3 on craft checks). But I have other places I'd like to put that skill if I can.

Do I need the craft skills (or a roll of 20 on d20) to create these tattoos, or can I ignore craft skill checks, like I can ignore materials and casting time?

[Cruiser1]

Do I need the craft skills (or a roll of 20 on d20) to create these tattoos, or can I ignore craft skill checks, like I can ignore materials and casting time?
Yes, you need the Craft skills, unfortunately. Spells like Shadow Conjuration (and Miracle) only allow you to ignore requirements listed in the spell header (such as casting time, material components, etc) because the spell header for Shadow Conjuration or Miracle effectively replaces that of the spell you're simulating. Once the simulated spell is actually being cast, all other effects and requirements within its spell text are unchanged and still take place, such as Craft checks (barring where Shadow Conjuration specifically changes them, such as shadow summonings having fewer hp).

[bekeleven]

By my most likely reading, a shadow conjured magical tattoo would be 20% likely to work. Do you support an alternate interpretation?

Edit: Unless you're planning on voluntarily failing the saving throw to recognize as an illusion... an illusion spell... cast by yourself.

[strider24seven]

Shadow Conjuration et al are not particularly helpful unless:
a) You boost the reality of your spells. (not useful to bards usually)
b) You boost the save DC of your illusion spells beyond what saves are available at your level. (usually extremely difficult by the time you have access to Shadow Conjuration)
c) You rely on mimicking spells that summon creatures or do lethal damage. (probably your best option, IMO).

Edited for clarity

[Hiro Quester]

A shadow evocation/conjuration can be believed by the caster, by choosing to fail your saving throw.

My GM ruled it thus. And it works by the same logic as the illusory assassin spell (can't recall its name right now) that creates an illusion of the target's greatest fear. If they fail the Will save, they believe it and die of fright. But if they make the save, they can make a second save to turn it back on the caster. Even though it's your illusion spell and know it's fake, you still could die of fright if you fail the saving throw. So knowing it's an illusion does not ensure disbelief. The saving throw determines that. And you can choose to fail a save.

Only those interacting with a shadowstuff get to save against it. So if I interact with it, I can choose to fail the save and so believe it, and then for me it's 100% real.

So the point is that tattoos that give me a bonus to a saving throw, or increase to ability scores, are ones only I interact with. A caster level bump might be one the target of the spell interacts with also, though. But of Shadow Mage Armor works normally (as some GMs rule it can), then so should a shadow tattoo that bumps CL.

But I guess I have to make the Craft skill roll to make the tattoo. Thanks for that clarification, Cruiser1.

It might be worth investing a rank in Craft skills, then. But I have the 1st label spell Improvisation, that gives me a pool of luck where I can add up to half my level to any attack or skill roll. That will help with the high DC craft checks.

Question: Do you make the craft check before deciding what kind of tattoo you are trying to craft. Or do you commit to an attempt at a particular tattoo, and then roll to see if you are successful?

And yes, Strider, I can increase the DC using feats and songs. I can increase the DC of a spell (Captivating Melody feat). And Sublime Chord 2 gets the song of arcane might, where I can increase caster level of a spell, using a perform check I can easily max, and get +4 CL. This helps for getting through spell resistance and for extra damage. if I cast illusions that way.

I also have the Doomspeak feat, which uses Bard music to lower an enemy's saving throws by 10 for the next round.

These all (hopefully) can be used to make shadowstuff practically real, when I interact with it, and if I send it at others.

Thanks again!

[bekeleven]

Shadow Conjuration et al are not particularly helpful unless:
a) You boost the reality of your spells. (not useful to bards usually)
b) You boost the save DC of your illusion spells beyond what saves are available at your level. (usually extremely difficult by the time you have access to SC)
c) You rely on mimicking spells that summon creatures or do lethal damage. (probably your best option, IMO).

I disagree. (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjR1dOeEVkRUU4WlU/edit?pli=1)

[strider24seven]

I disagree. (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjR1dOeEVkRUU4WlU/edit?pli=1)

Which is an excellent guide, to which I have often referred others as well. However, let's check out a more realistic example for the OP:

Average saves of a CR 14 monster are +15.92, +11.83, +14.00 (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1118841)
Assuming he has a base CHA of 21 (18 base +3 from levels), a +6 CHA item.

DC of Shadow Conjuration is 24 (10 base+4 spell level+5 base CHA+6 CHA item)
Average will save for team monster at CR 14 is +14. That's a 50% chance for an average opponent of his CR to fail the will save from Shadow Conjuration, from which follows the 80% failure rate upon disbelief

Assuming the spell in question has a save, his chances of success on his spells are (rounding down the average saves for the sake of generosity):

Fort: 45%
Ref: 60%
Will: 50%

So his chances of having a successful Shadow Conjuration upon any given creature is:

Fort: 27% [F:(50%*45%)+S:(50%*20%*45%)]
Ref: 36% [F:(50%*60%)+S:(50%*20%*60%)]
Will: 30% [F:(50%*50%)+S:(50%*20%*50%)]
No save: 60% [F:(50%*20%)+S:(50%)]

So his chances of doing anything of impact against an average opponent of his level with reliability are rather low.

Additionally, Shadow Conjuration also imposes SR on any spell you cast, even if the original spell does not offer SR. I am currently unable to find the handy chart of SR by CR, but I recall it being in the 23-24 range for creatures with SR, which imposes a 50% chance failure rate on the spell on top of the (IMO) abysmally low success rates already, barring any CL boosts or Spell Penetration et al.

Note - these success rates are low for my taste; I prefer at least a 90% success rate. These rates may work for others, and improve significantly with investment (save boosts and enhanced reality), but since the OP said that he was a bard that just happened to notice Shadow Conjuration as an available spell, I assumed that he did not possess this sort of investment.