OOTS #941 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[the_archduke]

Wonder what that plan entails, and if it will be like a normal Elan plan

[CoffeeIncluded]

Aww. And yeah, Elan, you know the tropes pretty well. I think that's about as good as any man is going to get from his girlfriend's daddy.

Cue the speculation on what the plan is. I bet it involves a lot of exposing evil plans.

[Guancyto]

Baby steps, Ian. Baby steps.

[DaggerPen]

More unspoken plans, Elan? Just be wary of trying to pull the same trick too many times.

Great strip, Giant. I loved the Ian and Haley moment.

[Ralcos]

Now I'm really jealous of Elan's character arc.
I don't know why, honest. :smallbiggrin:

[Cikomyr]

Agreed. My father in law told me the same at least twice.

[Gwin]

Explosive Runes? Nice! :)

[rs2excelsior]

I hope that one day my future girlfriend's father is as understanding as Ian Starshine :smalltongue:

Another great comic, I loved the development of Haley's relationship with her father.

[Great Dane]

Oh Elan, how I love you.

[AKA_Bait]

Nice strip!

More evidence for my theory that we'll be seeing an off-the-main-storyline book or something on the rise and fall of Tarquin's empire.

[Composer99]

"What is it? Explosive Runes?" - brilliant callback.

And the final-panel exchange between Ian and Elan? Hilarious.

[Mordae]

Better than future mother-in-law's Explosive Runes brand coffee for her little girl's freakish monsternice new boyfriend... :smallbiggrin:

[Kevka Palazzo]

Hooray! After the emotional roller coaster of the previous ~80 strips, I'm glad we're getting some light-hearted fun!

[Oko and Qailee]

Elan is setting his expectations pretty low at this point :smallbiggrin:

[Agnostik]

Laughed out loud at the last panel. :smallsmile:

[Coliumbos]

Closest Elan's going to come to Ian's blessing I guess.

D'aww.

[MoonCat]

Someone who actually suspects Explosive Runes! Ian and Belkar should hang out more.

[DigoDragon]

Aye, Elan's statement on that last panel sounds a lot like the jokes I used with my wife's folks.
Frightening that they love my odd sense of humor. :smallsmile:

[Sunken Valley]

Someone's had their coffee this week!

Now we have a new plan to speculate about.

[Morty]

That's the spirit, Elan. You need to take what you can get in this family.

[Edhelras]

The title??? Didn't get it. But nice to see a friendly father-in-law. I remember this father of a girl I dated ...

[Shale]

D'aaaaaaaaaaaaw.

Speaking as a guy who met his now-father-in-law when the latter walked into a room shirtless and carrying a smoking rifle, I'm with Elan on this one. High praise!

[Sharoth]

~LAUGHTER~ So very true! You rock Elan!

[Barstro]

The title??? Didn't get it. But nice to see a friendly father-in-law. I remember this father of a girl I dated ...

The plan (or everything else) is sort of (relatively) ok.

Starshine is OK with his possible new relative.

[kabukiman1973]

So, did Elan got a magic ring (without knowing) that increased his intel stat? Or did the GM let him roll again his int stat?:smallbiggrin:

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Good strip today.

Yay for secret plans and stuff getting done!

Also, I really like how Ian Starshine is developing as a father to Haley. Maybe next he'll apologize for teaching her to be paranoid and untrusting.

[LBarimen]

As the father of three daughters, I agree with Elan, it's the best he can hope for. :smallbiggrin:

[plasmid]

why would gannji still want to kill Elan? there shouldn't be any bounty on Elen's head right now.

[hamishspence]

I wonder if the "Truly" phrasing is a recurring motif?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html

If so, I like it.



why would gannji still want to kill Elan? there shouldn't be any bounty on Elen's head right now.


He's talking about Amun-Zora.

[RMS Oceanic]

In keeping with the theme of Tarquin not being as important as he thinks, I am 90% certain we will never learn the details of this plan.

Ian may be a fool at times, but what he said to Haley about the resistance rings true. I doubt she'd have prevented what happened.

[pendell]

Heartwarming +1.

The weak link is Geoff, who still has not been dealt with. Ian only trusts flesh and blood, ergo it must be flesh and blood betraying him on Bozzak's behalf.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[AdmiralCheez]

Oh, so that's how I get my girlfriend's father to like me? It all makes sense, now! Actually, I think he likes me already, so maybe I don't need to formulate a plan to take down my father.

[Gift Jeraff]

I wonder if the "right equipment" Ian needs to get includes potato salad and a giant wooden alpaca.

[ella ventic]

Oh, Geoff is back up and about, is he? V. curious to see what he thinks of this development and how it fits in with his (presumed) deal with Bozzok...

[zimmerwald1915]

Ian, what are you doing coming off all sympathetic? The more people start feeling some small smidgen of compassion for you, the more likely you are to die horribly!

[The Zealot]

:smallredface: A smile creeped on to my face when I read "Not bad, kid." and saw Ian finally compliment Elan for the first time. Just a moment of pride for our resident bard!

:smallsmile: All the loose ends are finally being tied up. I can't wait to see what Elan's plan turns out to be!

[Quirel]

So, did Elan got a magic ring (without knowing) that increased his intel stat? Or did the GM let him roll again his int stat?:smallbiggrin:
He leveled up in Dashing Swordsman and took a feat that adds your Charisma modifier to intelligence checks when making plans. However, the plan needs to be unspoken until the moment it is put into action.

[AutomatedTeller]

ok - that makes me feel better about last strip. Should have trusted in Rich!!

What's up with Elan coming up with not one, but two plans to beat Tarquin? one that worked, and one that is getting grudging approval?

[Porthos]

Yet Another Dangling Plotline for us to Obsess Over. Why must you taunt us so, Rich?

*checks Very First Post in discussion thread*

Yep. That's us alright. Predictable to a tee. :smalltongue:

[Ron Miel]

How come Durkon hasn't restored Geoff's leg?

Could he restore Ian's red hair?

[Gift Jeraff]

why would gannji still want to kill Elan? there shouldn't be any bounty on Elen's head right now.

Ian's new boss is Amun-Zora, who wants to kill Elan because he protected Tarquin.

[Saturosian]

Elan's helping! :smallbiggrin:

I really think that the resistance's chances just went from like 5% to 75% just now.

[Beacon of Chaos]

Okay, maybe I'm just dumb, but who is Haley talking about in panel two?

[Shale]

The Azure City resistance. She got Niu's sending about the slaughter when they were in the pyramid's antechamber.

[Gift Jeraff]

Okay, maybe I'm just dumb, but who is Haley talking about in panel two?

The Resistance Redcloak recently wrecked.

[Fitzclowningham]

I wonder if Elan's plan benefits from the intelligence V got from Sabine.

[zimmerwald1915]

How come Durkon hasn't restored Geoff's leg?
Maybe he doesn't want to get off the ship so he won't get gawked at or threatened with pointy pieces of wood. Maybe he didn't prepare regenerate more than once and doesn't want to disappoint Geoff. Maybe he no longer cares to heal those who aren't in his immediate circle of friends and blood donors.

[The Kind Knido]

The plan has to involve exploiting Tarquin's inability to quit. Shouldn't be entirely difficult to defeat him once you learn that.

On a side note, however, those upturned eyebrows...I don't think I've seen them before, or at least not enough to really take notice. There are a lot of them here. They definitely look familiar now, but they look much more noticeable. A change in facial features brought on by the new computer/software version?

[zimmerwald1915]

On a side note, however, those upturned eyebrows...I don't think I've seen them before, or at least not enough to really take notice. There are a lot of them here. They definitely look familiar now, but they look much more noticeable. A change in facial features brought on by the new computer/software version?
Which do you mean? The two separated eyebrows coming to a peak in the middle of the forehead or the broad u-shaped eyebrows coming to a trough just above and between the eyes? Both have been used in the comic before, the former to indicate vulnerability or weepiness, the latter to indicate confidence or scheming.

[David Argall]

I wonder if the "right equipment" Ian needs to get includes potato salad and a giant wooden alpaca.
The plan also involves turning into dinosaurs.

My speculation is that the plan is so obviously idiotic that Ian realized that anyone offering it can't be plotting anything that is an actual threat, meaning that while Elan is clearly unworthy of his daughter, he at least is no threat to her, unlike just about every other male.

[The Kind Knido]

Which do you mean? The two separated eyebrows coming to a peak in the middle of the forehead or the broad u-shaped eyebrows coming to a trough just above and between the eyes? Both have been used in the comic before, the former to indicate vulnerability or weepiness, the latter to indicate confidence or scheming.

Precisely what I mean. It's either a change, or it being more prominent due to how many there are (and there's somewhat of an over usage).

...or the fact that the glasses I wear are bent in half and there's a lens from a different pair mindlessly taped over said side and everything is rather sideways with a piece of flying tape obscuring one side, I dunno.

EDIT: I mean the former, but it looks like to me, you described the same face twice. I'll just use this emote I suppose - :smallfrown:

[hamishspence]

My speculation is that the plan is so obviously idiotic that Ian realized that anyone offering it can't be plotting anything that is an actual threat, meaning that while Elan is clearly unworthy of his daughter, he at least is no threat to her, unlike just about every other male.Given his previous disdain for Elan, I can't see him bothering to "spare Elan's feelings" by complimenting the Plan.

Simpler explanation - his approval is real.

[The Pilgrim]

Not all are dead, Haley. Niu is still alive.

[ElenionAncalima]

Very curious about this plan. I wouldn't think it could possibly be good, coming from Elan, but he has been on such a win streak lately.

[LadyEowyn]

Aww. That's a sweet moment between Haley and Ian. And it's a good piece of characterization to show how Haley's been affected by learning about the destruction of the Azure City Resistance.

[The Kind Knido]

Very curious about this plan. I wouldn't think it could possibly be good, coming from Elan, but he has been on such a win streak lately.

On the contrary; Elan's a bard. He should know by now precisely how Tarquin fights and has likely spotted weaknesses in his fighting style, thought process, and just the way he acts in general. I stick by what I said about being able to exploit his inability to quit, or at least exploit his sheer insanity over what he thinks is a good plot.

[Shale]

Elan has just shown that he can do some pretty sophisticated thinking on narrative convention, so it's probably going to tie back into that somehow. There's a whole bunch of cliches that could work in Ian's favor, and if they invoke one that makes Tarquin angry, that'll help things along tremendously.

[Sloanzilla]

Couldn't you keep focusing on his need for a specific storyline- spreading rumors about Elan and picking away at Tarquin's various psychological issues until Miron and friends finally decide he's a liability and take care of him themselves?

Sure, you still have four epic lawful evilish characters running the continent then, but that's still better than six.

[HandofShadows]

Wow, Elan HAS been working on building up his Int stat hasn't he? :smallcool: :smallbiggrin:

[Socksy]

/LOUD AND OBNOXIOUS SQUEALING

[Gift Jeraff]

The training Ian refers to is actually rehearsal. The right equipment are costumes.

They're going to put on a play that completely breaks narrative convention and give Tarkie a heart attack.

[Socksy]

So, did Elan got a magic ring (without knowing) that increased his intel stat? Or did the GM let him roll again his int stat?:smallbiggrin:

You can choose to boost one of your stats at 16th level, so... :D

[Ridureyu]

The best I ever got from a girlfriend's father was:

"Son, you don't know what you're getting into with this girl. You need to flee now while you still have a chance."

If only I had listened.

[Lossoth]

That was beautiful.
For the longest time I was not fond of Ian. But now I see him in a whole new light. Thanks.

[Beacon of Chaos]

The Azure City resistance. She got Niu's sending about the slaughter when they were in the pyramid's antechamber.


The Resistance Redcloak recently wrecked.
Ah, yes, thank you. I'd already forgotten.

P.S. Nice alliteration there.

[Crusher]

Good one. :)

[I'mBehindYou]

... Elan is unusually smart here.
Maybe he increased his Intelligence score last time he went up a level?:smallbiggrin: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0382.html)

[LCData1701]

The plan (or everything else) is sort of (relatively) ok.

Starshine is OK with his possible new relative.

I figured it was a bit of a takeoff on "mostly harmless" from Hitchhiker's, referring to the relatively safe nature of Elan mentioned in the last panel.

[Ron Miel]

why would gannji still want to kill Elan? there shouldn't be any bounty on Elen's head right now.

Not Ganji, it's Amun-zora that wants to kill Elan.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0801.html

[Living Oxymoron]

I hope Elan proves to everyone that you don't need to be Evil to be a mastermind.

[Zea mays]

I wonder if the "right equipment" Ian needs to get includes potato salad and a giant wooden alpaca.

Puppets. The plan has to somehow involve puppets.

[SterlingAvenger]

D'awww:smallredface: They really do love each other and Elan appears to be on the road towards being welcomed to the family wholeheartedly.

Also this the earliest I've ever seen an update. I'm kinda proud of me.

[Amphiox]

Interpretation number one:

Elan has produced a plan of that a character like Ian Starshine approves of! Yay character growth for Elan! :smallbiggrin:

Interpretation number two:

Ian Starshine has approved a plan dreamed up by a character like Elan. Oh noes! Ian has gone insane! Or senile! This can't bode well....:smalleek:

And that's compliments from TWO male authority figures Elan has a vested interest in earning approval from in just the last quarter of this book!

[Emulgator]

Can I say I love the current speed of updates? Because I do.

[t209]

Orders, if you found Redcloak. Make sure to bring his head back to mount on the wall. I want payback for the Resistance.

[SamBurke]

I love this comic... One of the funniest in a while.

[Kish]

Orders, if you found Redcloak. Make sure to bring his head back to mount on the wall. I want payback for the Resistance.
Sometimes I see a post that seems to demand a one-character reply, to whit, ?.

[ScrapperTBP]

Nice feel good strip!

[ThePhantasm]

Very funny final panel! Anyone who has endured the suspicion of their girlfriend's parents can relate. :smalltongue:

[ChowGuy]

Puppets. The plan has to somehow involve puppets.

Well, sure. ANY plan to take down team Tarquin has to involve puppets - that's how they rule the empire after all :smalltongue:

[Vinsfeld]

Agreed. My father in law told me the same at least twice.

My parents-in-law still hate me :smallfrown:

[wyrmhole]

He leveled up in Dashing Swordsman and took a feat that adds your Charisma modifier to intelligence checks when making plans. However, the plan needs to be unspoken until the moment it is put into action.

Ha! I love it!

[Liliet]

OMG, the speed of updates
we're getting spoiled rotten here

Ian is being adorable instead of obnoxious for a change. And Elan coming with a smart plan is actually scary 0.0 I'm betting one to ten billion and one that this plan will work

[Heksefatter]

I love, love, love the last panel.

[Dracon1us]

He leveled up in Dashing Swordsman and took a feat that adds your Charisma modifier to intelligence checks when making plans. However, the plan needs to be unspoken until the moment it is put into action.

plus 1 for you my friend

As a DM, I would totally agree with that :smallcool:

[Snails]

The North Pole? Giant, you have really raised the expectations for your 2014 OotS' Christmas ornaments. Hope you realize...

[Kornaki]

The North Pole? Giant, you have really raised the expectations for your 2014 OotS' Christmas ornaments. Hope you realize...

You're forgetting the 226 strips we have left to wrap up the desert arc :smalltongue:

We won't see the OOTS pole until 2017.

[bladequeen420]

Tarquin will get his ass kicked very soon

[Alaska Fan]

An update! Maybe now I can get some work done instead of compulsively checking OOTS...

[Bedinsis]

I'm getting the feeling that we're rushing to the end of the current book.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Awesome strip, as usual. And we are really being spoiled with all these updates! I loved the punch line at the end.

[Joseph_Lavode]

Oh, Elan. :smallbiggrin:

Does that mean we have to see what happens with the resistance later so we can learn Elan's plan as a shocking twist?

[Wolv90]

Sounds like what my Mother in law said to me when I asked her permission to marry my wife.

[137beth]

Hurrah for Elan!

[hamishspence]

I'm getting the feeling that we're rushing to the end of the current book.

Might be interesting to compare to the previous book, where the villain is also seen yelling skyward when the heroes escape, shortly before it ends:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html

I'd say that the two are thematically similar moments.

[DeadMG]

Elan's new anti-Tarquin plan will be as surprisingly effective as his previous anti-Tarquin plan.

[Jay R]

Wow, Elan HAS been working on building up his Int stat hasn't he? :smallcool: :smallbiggrin:

Since very early on in the strip, he's been good on how story conventions work, and that's the best tool to use against Tarquin. He's a bard, that kind of stuff comes naturally (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).

[Toper]

That's one beat-up piece of parchment. I wonder if Elan distressed it himself to make it look more important.

[ThePhantasm]

Might be interesting to compare to the previous book, where the villain is also seen yelling skyward when the heroes escape, shortly before it ends:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html

I'd say that the two are thematically similar moments.

Yeah, the previous book had 14 pages of denouement. This one, so far, has had 6...

(Remember the previous book also wrapped up / set up plotlines rapidly in the end, and Belkar even commented on that.)

[Gorfnod]

Oh joy, another thing that we don't know and will endlessly debate about. Let's throw it in the pile.

What is Elan's new plan?
Will Geoff betray Ian?
What was Laurin's favor?
How will Belkar die?
Will Durkon betray the Order?

and finally

What the heck is the MitD?


Seriously though, awesome update, I love how fast they are coming lately.

[tomandtish]

.... Actually, I think he likes me already, so maybe I don't need to formulate a plan to take down my father.

Oh you poor sweet deluded child. There coms a point at which a father realizes tha you either already have slept with (or else are planning to sleep with) his daughter. At that point all his energy is focused on your death or downfall. Only that or a marrriage will end his plotting.

Ian is obviously lulling Elan into a false sense of security. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

(Remember the previous book also wrapped up / set up plotlines rapidly in the end, and Belkar even commented on that.)

It also put a few bonus strips in that denouement period.

[comicshorse]

Am I missing something but how does Ian know that the resistance where taken out by somebody 'singlehandedly'. Cause that seems a bit suspicious to me

[Gift Jeraff]

Am I missing something but how does Ian know that the resistance where taken out by somebody 'singlehandedly'. Cause that seems a bit suspicious to me

The singlehandedly refers to you (Haley), I'm pretty sure.

[hamishspence]

He's referring to Haley - basically "could you have stopped the destroyer single-handedly"

Since Redcloak didn't destroy them on his own - he had a whole bunch of minions with him.

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[zimmerwald1915]

Am I missing something but how does Ian know that the resistance where taken out by somebody 'singlehandedly'. Cause that seems a bit suspicious to me
He's not saying that someone killed the Resistance singlehandedly (although someone certainly did). He's saying that Haley couldn't have stopped that person singlehandedly, that her being absent had no bearing on how things turned out.

EDIT: multi-ninja'd!

[orrion]

The plan also involves turning into dinosaurs.

My speculation is that the plan is so obviously idiotic that Ian realized that anyone offering it can't be plotting anything that is an actual threat, meaning that while Elan is clearly unworthy of his daughter, he at least is no threat to her, unlike just about every other male.

And why the heck would Ian start sparing Elan's feelings at this point? If it was so obviously idiotic, he'd have said so to Elan's face.


My own guess for now is that Elan is suggesting at least some of them take the Dashing Swordsman class, which would explain the need for training (taking the class and learning to pun) and for some new equipment (rapiers.. maybe swords for those that don't have them). The pun-dueling will be used to drive Tarquin insane.

On the other hand, I don't see any of the people we've seen so far having very high Charisma scores, excepting maybe Amun-Zora.

[Breccia]

I'm not even going to guess what's written on that paper. Last time Elan had a secret plan, it took about a hundred strips and over a year before it came to pass. However, it'll probably be pretty effective.

Unless it involves rocket skates.

[Trillium]

Elan came with two good plans in a just a few days?

Oh woe, this surely heralds the end of the world! Run for your lives!

[Ghost Nappa]

Is Elan putting points into Intelligence?

Or are all of his plans so incredibly meta-climactic that they all succeed anyway?

My guess is both.

[Giggling Ghast]

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that it involves something artistic, like starting a travelling puppet show that exposes Tarquin's regime.

[Sloanzilla]

How about they trick Tarquin into watching the Matrix 2-3 and he becomes so upset over the nonsensical plot that he gives up.

[AdmiralCheez]

Oh you poor sweet deluded child. There coms a point at which a father realizes tha you either already have slept with (or else are planning to sleep with) his daughter. At that point all his energy is focused on your death or downfall. Only that or a marrriage will end his plotting.

Ian is obviously lulling Elan into a false sense of security. :smallbiggrin:

Then I guess the only option is to begin plotting his downfall while I still have the advantage. That way, when he comes to this realization, I'll be two steps ahead. Of course, this will then lead to an ever-escalating shadow war between the two of us, ultimately ending with both of us being assassinated by agents of the other on one dark, climactic evening.

It's not the most favorable outcome, but it sure beats being the fool who was unprepared. :smallcool:

[Smolder]

Wow. So Elan's the smart one now? That's a helluva lotta character development.

Keep it up, Elan!

[oppyu]

And Ian takes a commanding lead in the 'Best Father of a PC' contest! With one strip, he easily streaks ahead of 'Well, At Least He Never Tried To Murder Everyone Roy Cares About' Eugene, and 'Well, At Least He Cares. He Really, Really Cares' Tarquin!

[Newwby]

And Elan officially graduates to position of 'the real tactical genius' within the OotS. He has displayed more competence in recent strips (recentish, post-Therkla) than most characters combined. Never thought I'd say either thing when I first encountered the character - it's some impressive and more importantly, convincing, character growth Mr. Burlew!

[Yendor]

And Ian takes a commanding lead in the 'Best Father of a PC' contest! With one strip, he easily streaks ahead of 'Well, At Least He Never Tried To Murder Everyone Roy Cares About' Eugene, and 'Well, At Least He Cares. He Really, Really Cares' Tarquin!

Ian was always miles ahead as the best father. For all his many faults, at least he managed to raise a child who loves him.

[wyrmhole]

Wow. So Elan's the smart one now?

Well, let's not go crazy.

[hamishspence]

Ian was always miles ahead as the best father. For all his many faults, at least he managed to raise a child who loves him.

Maybe we'll see V's, Durkon's, or Belkar's parents at some point in the future, and get to see where they fall on the scale?

[RdMarquis]

Dunno if anyone has already said this, but I love that Ian is familiar with the Explosive Runes trick. :smallbiggrin:

[jidasfire]

I think the reason Elan has been so on the spot with plans lately is because he's going up against Tarquin. He is actually uniquely suited to outmaneuver his father despite the likely double-digit gap between their INT scores. Tarquin's limitation is that he can't see beyond narrative structure, and while he plans well for any situation that falls within his view of stories, Elan's recent growth (honestly extending as far back as when he told Haley about Therkla) allows him to see beyond story structure (resulting in his successful plan to convince Julio to assist him). So I won't be surprised if the plan is successful, to some degree or other.

[oppyu]

Ian was always miles ahead as the best father. For all his many faults, at least he managed to raise a child who loves him.
And Ian takes a more commanding lead in the 'Best Father of a PC' contest! With one strip, he easily streaks further ahead of 'Well, At Least He Never Tried To Murder Everyone Roy Cares About' Eugene, and 'Well, At Least He Cares. He Really, Really Cares' Tarquin!

[zimmerwald1915]

Maybe we'll see V's, Durkon's, or Belkar's parents at some point in the future, and get to see where they fall on the scale?
I want to say that the Giant said at some point that he never devoted any creative thought to them, but I can't seem to find the post, so maybe I'm making that up.

[Shale]

I'm trying to think of how Belkar could possibly have had good parents, and I'm drawing a blank.

[Martok]

Great strip, Rich!

Good character development, yay for tying up several loose ends, some nice touching moments, and a big laugh at Elan's comment in the final panel. Well done. :smallcool:

[Lheticus]

Explosive Runes? Nice! :)

No way ever. If you actually called it here, I'll eat my computer monitor. XD

EDIT:

I just read the comic again and realized what the post I'm referring to actually meant.

And now I am the derp.

[jidasfire]

I'm trying to think of how Belkar could possibly have had good parents, and I'm drawing a blank.

I'll field that one.

I have long suspected that Belkar had the happiest childhood of the entire Order (from an outside perspective). He was surrounded by a bunch of loving, happy, singing hobbits who ate and frolicked and loved life and took it easy. And he hated every minute of it.

[Snails]

And Elan officially graduates to position of 'the real tactical genius' within the OotS. He has displayed more competence in recent strips (recentish, post-Therkla) than most characters combined. Never thought I'd say either thing when I first encountered the character - it's some impressive and more importantly, convincing, character growth Mr. Burlew!

Well...sort of. Elan is graduating to being a competent Face Man. He was supposed to be able to persuade people to lend a hand or to harass their enemies. He only got around to doing it now, when facing his father.

[Socksy]

Is Elan putting points into Intelligence?

Or are all of his plans so incredibly meta-climactic that they all succeed anyway?

My guess is both.

Nah, he's putting them into Craft: Cunning Plan.

[1811]

Hooray! After the emotional roller coaster of the previous ~80 strips, I'm glad we're getting some light-hearted fun!

Yes indeed.

[I'mBehindYou]

Tarquin will get his ass kicked very soon
I think you forgot:
He already DID!

[Spoomeister]

Nice light touch with Haley's characterization and Haley and Ian's plotlines overall. Not only does it feel wrap-up-this-book-ish, but it's a nice little character and plot flourish for both of them. A neat change of pace from the other characters and storylines we've been following recently. Nice couple of updates here, between these last two.

I really do wonder what the book will end on, though...

[Golden-Esque]

I love the throwaway reference to how prevalent the Explosive Runes gag is in the comic that Ian makes. :smallsmile:

[Math_Mage]

Elan just coming up with a great plan on the way over seems overly convenient, to be honest. I don't think it's totally implausible, and I get that it makes narrative sense to avoid making a big deal about beating Tarquin now of all times, but...I don't know. It just doesn't feel right.

[Shale]

Nah, he's putting them into Craft: Cunning Plan.

With 20 ranks you can put a tail on said plan to polymorph it into a dire weasel.

[Draz74]

I hope that one day my future girlfriend's father is as understanding as Ian Starshine :smalltongue:
I must be a really odd fellow ... I tend to win approval from girls' dads immediately. Then have the girls decide they're not interested in me after all, while their dads keep hoping for them to come around ...


So, did Elan got a magic ring (without knowing) that increased his intel stat? Or did the GM let him roll again his int stat?:smallbiggrin:
I'm betting he got help making the plan from Haley, Roy, and V, and they agreed to let him have the credit for it.

... Actually, maybe not Roy. Roy still might have too much trouble accepting the premise that Elan's plans might be worth developing together.


In keeping with the theme of Tarquin not being as important as he thinks, I am 90% certain we will never learn the details of this plan.
You may be right. After all, what could be a worse ending for Tarquin than being overthrown off-panel? He'd be disgusted at the very thought!

Then again, I'm still hoping that we'll get to see Sabine get her sweet revenge (directly) at some point.


I wonder if Elan's plan benefits from the intelligence V got from Sabine.
Hmmmm ...


An update! Maybe now I can get some work done instead of compulsively checking OOTS...
Yeah, that'll work out for ... maybe four hours? Then you'll want more. :smalltongue:


And Ian takes a commanding lead in the 'Best Father of a PC' contest! With one strip, he easily streaks ahead of 'Well, At Least He Never Tried To Murder Everyone Roy Cares About' Eugene, and 'Well, At Least He Cares. He Really, Really Cares' Tarquin!


Ian was always miles ahead as the best father. For all his many faults, at least he managed to raise a child who loves him.
Eh, Ian still has some competition from Eugene. Roy and Eugene don't get along, but deep down they are very important to each other. (They can make each other mad in the way only someone you love can get through to you.)

But Ian may be ahead of Eugene for now, yes.


Maybe we'll see V's, Durkon's, or Belkar's parents at some point in the future, and get to see where they fall on the scale?

Belkar? Don't make me laugh.

Durkon may have had good parents, but based on references to his relationship with "grandpappy," I'm guessing they died while he was young. (Perhaps at the hands of trees?)

As for V,
On the Origin of PCs gives a bit of information about them ... they're Rangers; V and his parents always had a hard time connecting emotionally; and when (s)he apprenticed to Aarindarius, (s)he pretty much adopted Aarindarius as a substitute parental figure. So V's parents probably aren't complete jerks like many of the others, but they're not going to be winning a lot of "best parent" contests either.

[glissle]

Wow, Elan HAS been working on building up his Int stat hasn't he? :smallcool: :smallbiggrin:
If Elan had a player and a DM with a pathological aversion to metagaming, the player might be able to justify the plan by pointing to 18 ranks in some relevant Knowledge skill and arguing that should outweigh whatever advantage the plan is getting from the player's intelligence. In-game, even a 20 intelligence would only be a +5 bonus, and the player is presumably not superhuman.

Against Tarquin, being Chaotic helps as well, at least for impressing Ian if not for being effective.

[hamishspence]

I have long suspected that Belkar had the happiest childhood of the entire Order (from an outside perspective). He was surrounded by a bunch of loving, happy, singing hobbits who ate and frolicked and loved life and took it easy. And he hated every minute of it.

Except maybe for Aunt Judy.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html

[Snails]

And Ian takes a more commanding lead in the 'Best Father of a PC' contest! With one strip, he easily streaks further ahead of 'Well, At Least He Never Tried To Murder Everyone Roy Cares About' Eugene, and 'Well, At Least He Cares. He Really, Really Cares' Tarquin!

This is going be the thread winner.

I would have called Roy's dad lovable old "You Are Getting Into Heaven Over My Dead Body" Eugene.

Is Malack eligible for this contest?

[Tragak]

With 20 ranks you can put a tail on said plan to polymorph it into a dire weasel. :smallconfused: What.

[Shale]

Blackadder! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp5St7hORyw)

[warmachine]

The punchline made me LOL.

[ORione]

It's nice seeing Ian give some good, fatherly wisdom.

And nice expression on Elan's face in panel 8. Is this the first time we've seen :smallfrown: eyebrows combined with a :smallbiggrin: mouth?

[RMS Oceanic]

Interpretation number one:

Elan has produced a plan of that a character like Ian Starshine approves of! Yay character growth for Elan! :smallbiggrin:

Interpretation number two:

Ian Starshine has approved a plan dreamed up by a character like Elan. Oh noes! Ian has gone insane! Or senile! This can't bode well....:smalleek:

And that's compliments from TWO male authority figures Elan has a vested interest in earning approval from in just the last quarter of this book!

The correct assumption is this: QUINTUPLE FANTASY!!!

[Anarion]

Elan just coming up with a great plan on the way over seems overly convenient, to be honest. I don't think it's totally implausible, and I get that it makes narrative sense to avoid making a big deal about beating Tarquin now of all times, but...I don't know. It just doesn't feel right.

It doesn't bother me. This is the second time that Elan foreshadowed having a plan and it seems clear to me that Elan just gets his father on a way that makes it easy for him to disrupt Tarquin.

I'm also happy to see the pace that this scene is wrapping up loose ends and a little vulnerability from Haley here was a pleasant change of pace and contrasts really nicely with her scene in the last comic.

[Osiris]

D'awww! And here I thought Ian was never happy! This made my day. Seriously.

[Jasdoif]

Is Malack eligible for this contest?...."Loved him so much that it killed him" Malack?

[Math_Mage]

It doesn't bother me. This is the second time that Elan foreshadowed having a plan and it seems clear to me that Elan just gets his father on a way that makes it easy for him to disrupt Tarquin.
This isn't foreshadowing, though. It's just having a plan.

I suppose it'll depend a lot on the nature of the plan. If it turns out to be something really simple (like 'call Julio'), that's fine.

[IamL]

This isn't foreshadowing, though. It's just having a plan.

I suppose it'll depend a lot on the nature of the plan. If it turns out to be something really simple (like 'call Julio'), that's fine.

Meh, it's probably not 'call Julio' because Ian said they'd need to train and get the proper equipment.

[oppyu]

Elan's Secret Plan To Defeat Tarquin

Step 1: Build a giant wooden alpaca.
Step 2: Cook large amount of potato salad.
Step 3: Stuff potato salad inside giant wooden alpaca.
Step 4: Find a corkscrew.
Step 5: Kill Tarquin.

[Anarion]

This isn't foreshadowing, though. It's just having a plan.

I suppose it'll depend a lot on the nature of the plan. If it turns out to be something really simple (like 'call Julio'), that's fine.

Why isn't it foreshadowing? It's information about the existence of a plan without telling us what's in the plan in a way that explains what Ian might be doing and implies there might be a reveal of the plan in the future unless it's left as a loose end.

[I'mBehindYou]

Elan's Secret Plan To Defeat Tarquin

Step 1: Build a giant wooden alpaca.
Step 2: Cook large amount of potato salad.
Step 3: Stuff potato salad inside giant wooden alpaca.
Step 4: Find a corkscrew.
Step 5: Kill Tarquin.
Step 6: Use corkscrew to open giant wooden alpaca and give out free potato salad to all.

[Amphiox]

Step 6: Use corkscrew to open giant wooden alpaca and give out free potato salad to all.

Free potato salad will address the chronic resource shortage that is at the heart of the instability of the Western Continent that makes Tarquin's whole plan possible!

This plan has promise!

[Tragak]

Free potato salad will address the chronic resource shortage that is at the heart of the instability of the Western Continent that makes Tarquin's whole plan possible!

This plan has promise! And here I thought that the whole point of Steps 1-4 having nothing to do with Tarquin was just to keep the plan from making any kind of sense.

If so, it didn't work :smallwink:

[oppyu]

Step 6: Use corkscrew to open giant wooden alpaca and give out free potato salad to all.
But how do they plan to keep the potato salad from going off?

[Tragak]

But how do they plan to keep the potato salad from going off? :smallconfused: What.

[oppyu]

:smallconfused: What.
That may be a local colloquialism. I just realised I've never heard anyone not from Australia use 'off' in that fashion.

How do you keep the potato salad from going rotten?

Edit: Thesaurus.com backed me up on that usage of 'off'. Ha!

[Lexible]

I wonder if the "Truly" phrasing is a recurring motif?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html

If so, I like it.

Yeah... Rich definitely creates some particular voices in the comic. I read the last frame and immediately heard Elan's voice in my head a la the last frame of 845 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html).

[wyrmhole]

That may be a local colloquialism. I just realised I've never heard anyone not from Australia use 'off' in that fashion.

How do you keep the potato salad from going rotten?

It's British, too.

Here in 'Merica "going off" usually refers to 'splosions. They were clearly confused as to how potato salad could "go off" in such a manner. Which means they just weren't thinking hard enough! ;)

[Necris Omega]

For a man embroiled in the art of storycraft and cliche', the active subversion of probability in the name of drama, and one with an int score just high enough to avoid speech penalties... Elan can be both very clever and surprisingly realistic.

[DeliaP]

That may be a local colloquialism. I just realised I've never heard anyone not from Australia use 'off' in that fashion.

How do you keep the potato salad from going rotten?

Edit: Thesaurus.com backed me up on that usage of 'off'. Ha!

food 'going off' is a common phrase in the uk, too...

Edit: ninja'd. But I like the idea of an explosive potato salad better anyway...

[Jasdoif]

But I like the idea of an explosive potato salad better anyway...Killing Tarquin with an exploding rotten potato salad would fit in the plan pretty well, I think.

[Adaon Nightwind]

Another funny, satisfying, emotional comic. And so soon after the last one :)

Thanks, Mr. Burlew. :)

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Lexible]

OMG, the speed of updates
we're getting spoiled rotten here

I know, right?! I no complain!

[ellindsey]

food 'going off' is a common phrase in the uk, too...


I've heard it used here in the northeastern US too. Although 'gone bad' would be more common.

[Tragak]

I've heard it used here in the northeastern US too. Although 'gone bad' would be more common. OK, my joke is officially less funny now that I know that the one before it makes sense :smallredface:

[Lexible]

That may be a local colloquialism. I just realised I've never heard anyone not from Australia use 'off' in that fashion.

How do you keep the potato salad from going rotten?

Edit: Thesaurus.com backed me up on that usage of 'off'. Ha!

In the USA it also refers to loudly taking umbrage at something.

The equivalent of the Aussie/Brit "gone off" in the USA is gone bad (http://oneandonlywoods.blogspot.com/2009/06/when-potato-salad-goes-bad.html).

[J's]

More unspoken plans, Elan? Just be wary of trying to pull the same trick too many times.

Great strip, Giant. I loved the Ian and Haley moment.

Nah, not the same. Elan has now shared them.

I'm just not sure Ian is as positive as he seems. I mean agreeing to a plan from elan so easily? Nale's are the convoluted ones, and at one page this won't be that, but the optimism should have thrown him. :smallconfused:

[Michaeler]

Exploding spuds aside, tackling the resource shortage could be exactly what Elan has in mind. The political situation on the Western continent is forged by people fighting over scraps. If there is a way to turn the land fertile...

[LuisDantas]

I'm wondering what the plan is... along with everyone else, I assume.

Also, Elan is rather easy to please, it turns out. I must have forgotten previous history explaining why Haley's father is so disposed against him.

And Haley is deeper than I gave her credit for. Her parting from her father is very well-handled.

[Kish]

I'm wondering what the plan is... along with everyone else, I assume.

Count me in the "doubts Rich actually bothered to come up with one" column...even if I'm the only one there.


Also, Elan is rather easy to please, it turns out. I must have forgotten previous history explaining why Haley's father is so disposed against him.
Because he's Tarquin's son.

And for no other reason.

[Porthos]

I must have forgotten previous history explaining why Haley's father is so disposed against him.


Because he's Tarquin's son.

And for no other reason.

Relevant strips:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0771.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html

[WolvesbaneIII]

great comic! got a big laugh outta me.

[Math_Mage]

Meh, it's probably not 'call Julio' because Ian said they'd need to train and get the proper equipment.
'Call Julio' was his last plan. I cited it as an example of the sort of plan Elan could come up with on the spur of the moment. I by no means think that's the plan Elan gave Ian.


Why isn't it foreshadowing? It's information about the existence of a plan without telling us what's in the plan in a way that explains what Ian might be doing and implies there might be a reveal of the plan in the future unless it's left as a loose end.
You said this was "the second time Elan foreshadowed having a plan." It is not. It is foreshadowing the execution of a plan, or it is simply having a plan. Moreover, since I don't think anyone was actually expecting Amun-Zora's group to simply wing it, the execution of a plan does not need any sort of foreshadowing (though there may be some component of the plan requiring knowledge of Tarquin or Tarquin's scheme that only Elan has, and I'm skeptical). So it is merely having a plan.

Similarly, Elan's revelation in 836 is not foreshadowing having a plan. It is having a plan, and it is foreshadowing Julio's intervention in Tarquin's fight with the Order. Since we would not normally expect Julio to intervene, this foreshadowing is necessary. However, it is still not foreshadowing having a plan; the object is wrong.

[Haldir]

Elan's the plan-man nowadays.

[Caex]

"Truly, that's all any man can hope to hear from his girlfriend's father."

Preach it, Elan.

[turkishproverb]

Glorious. I grow more curious by the day what ethan's plan is.

[YossarianLives]

Great last strip all the loose ends got tied up. Now we have even more.

[Zelkon]

Elan's Secret Plan To Defeat Tarquin

Step 1: Build a giant wooden alpaca.
Step 2: Cook large amount of potato salad.
Step 3: Stuff potato salad inside giant wooden alpaca.
Step 4: Find a corkscrew.
Step 5: Kill Tarquin.

Missing train.
Sorry, I read "We're going to need to train" as "We're going to need a train."

[Bulldog Psion]

Elan's the plan-man nowadays.

Yes, he seems to be using his ... brain? Was I really going to say that? :smallconfused:

[Rogar Demonblud]

I was going to say Elan's being funny in that last panel. Then I remembered how things went with some of my GFs' poppas. Then I remembered how I treated some of the guys who came by to date my little sister. Elan is very wise.


Maybe we'll see V's, Durkon's, or Belkar's parents at some point in the future, and get to see where they fall on the scale?

We know Durkon's father is dead, and his father's father, and his father's father's father, and...

[Amphiox]

I'm sure others have already noticed, but currently Team TDT (Take Down Tarquin) is composed of characters that Tarquin dismissed as bit players in "his" narrative, one-scene types to be used and thrown away. The next in a succession of throw-away wives, whose narrative role was merely to be the throw-away victim that facilitates the big reveal of his grand master plan, a couple of nameless mercenaries useful but for a short side diversion, a pair of prisoners whose names he didn't even bother knowing about until the connection with his son's girlfriends became plot relevant....

It would be fitting if they really did end up bringing him down....

[sengmeng]

Why do people keep thinking Geoff betrayed Ian? What could he possibly be getting that would make imprisonment, starvation, and the loss of a leg worth it?

[rewinn]

He leveled up in Dashing Swordsman and took a feat that adds your Charisma modifier to intelligence checks when making plans. However, the plan needs to be unspoken until the moment it is put into action.

Which sorta makes sense. His plan to involve Julio was both inspired and effective. It may be also be related to his bardic awareness of how plot works; a Dashing Swordsman/Bard dual class may be a natural combo.

I'm sure others have already noticed, but currently Team TDT (Take Down Tarquin) is composed of characters that Tarquin dismissed as bit players in "his" narrative, one-scene types to be used and thrown away....

It would be fitting if they really did end up bringing him down....

A ragtag band of assorted characters who don't really trust each other, but are forced together by circumstance and gradually learn to be a team?

Hmmm. There could be a story in that :smallwink:

[coineineagh]

So, is Elan displaying some form of Savant Syndrome, or something?
I was accustomed to him being useless and stupid.

And the title: "Relatively OK"
it refers to his girlfriend's dad, a relative, and his first approving comment of him.

[Clarkson]

Ya know if Ian really were paranoid about Elan being a sleeper Agent, then no matter how good the plan, if it came from Elan he wouldn't take it. Said plan would obviously have come from Tarquin, and Tarquin would have troops in position to deal with anyone trying to pull it off.

(This post was brought to you by: Sarcasm)

[Ben Kenobi]

The correct assumption is this: QUINTUPLE FANTASY!!!


THIS.

I've always speculated that a good end to Order of the stick would be the 'inception' ending. ;)

[oppyu]

Ya know if Ian really were paranoid about Elan being a sleeper Agent, then no matter how good the plan, if it came from Elan he wouldn't take it. Said plan would obviously have come from Tarquin, and Tarquin would have troops in position to deal with anyone trying to pull it off.

(This post was brought to you by: Sarcasm)
But then Elan would know that Ian knows, and Tarquin would know. By pretending to accept Elan's plan, Ian knows that Elan doesn't know that he knows. But to be truly paranoid, he would also have to account for the possibility that Elan knows that he knows that Elan knows that he knows, and the possibility that Elan knows that Ian may know that Elan knows that Ian knows that Elan knows that Ian knows. Even though we know that Elan knows nothing.

[DaggerPen]

And Ian takes a commanding lead in the 'Best Father of a PC' contest! With one strip, he easily streaks ahead of 'Well, At Least He Never Tried To Murder Everyone Roy Cares About' Eugene, and 'Well, At Least He Cares. He Really, Really Cares' Tarquin!

And an internet for you.


I'll field that one.

I have long suspected that Belkar had the happiest childhood of the entire Order (from an outside perspective). He was surrounded by a bunch of loving, happy, singing hobbits who ate and frolicked and loved life and took it easy. And he hated every minute of it.

"A world of peace. A world with no greed or crime. A world so boring you'd blow your brains out, but there are no guns. No one works, no one argues, there are 9,000 channels and NOTHING ON!" Points to those of you who get the reference.

[Rift_Wolf]

And an internet for you.



"A world of peace. A world with no greed or crime. A world so boring you'd blow your brains out, but there are no guns. No one works, no one argues, there are 9,000 channels and NOTHING ON!" Points to those of you who get the reference.

Is that the time traveller from New Adventures of Superman? (Think his name was Kronos)?

[DaggerPen]

Is that the time traveller from New Adventures of Superman? (Think his name was Kronos)?

Tempus, but close enough for a silver star.

[GregTD]

Wait, Elan came up with a good plan? Is that allowed?

[Byzantine2]

Wait, Elan came up with a good plan? Is that allowed?

He appears to get +5 to his intelligence score when he is dealing with plot-related plans.

[Michaeler]

He appears to get +5 to his intelligence score when he is dealing with plot-related plans.

Considering that Tarquin is basing his own strategy on how stories play out, it's possible that Elan can add his Bard level to his intelligence, since Bardic Knowledge lets him anticipate how Tarquin will react in any situation.

[Liliet]

The ideas on how Elan has managed to come up with a good plan keep piling up. Here's the complete list so far:
1) Dashing Swordsman allows him to use Charisma in place of Intelligence when devising plans that will be untold until executed;
2) He has ranks in Craft: Creative Plan that offset Int penalty;
3) He has ranks in relevant Knowledge skill that synergizes with his understanding of Tarquin;
4) He can add his Bard levels to his Int when devising a plan like that thanks to Bardic Knowledge.

I'd put my bet on 1&3, but anyway Elan making a good plan in this case makes a lot of intuitive non-mechanics-related sense too, given who he's up against.



I'm sure others have already noticed, but currently Team TDT (Take Down Tarquin) is composed of characters that Tarquin dismissed as bit players in "his" narrative, one-scene types to be used and thrown away. The next in a succession of throw-away wives, whose narrative role was merely to be the throw-away victim that facilitates the big reveal of his grand master plan, a couple of nameless mercenaries useful but for a short side diversion, a pair of prisoners whose names he didn't even bother knowing about until the connection with his son's girlfriends became plot relevant....

It would be fitting if they really did end up bringing him down....
This. The narrative is clearly building up to them winning, unlike the Azure city Resistance that tried to deprive the goblinoids of their long-deserved victory AND defeat the main villain without the protagonists.

[elros]

I really like how the Giant showed the emotions in panel 6. Pretty impressive for stick figures.

How do you think Haley heard about the failed resistance? There wasn't anyone left from the resistance, and I doubt anyone who escaped would think of contacting Haley. Do you think that would be covered in bonus material for the book?

[oppyu]

I really like how the Giant showed the emotions in panel 6. Pretty impressive for stick figures.

How do you think Haley heard about the failed resistance? There wasn't anyone left from the resistance, and I doubt anyone who escaped would think of contacting Haley. Do you think that would be covered in bonus material for the book?
Niu sent to the New Azure City folk here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html), who I'm assuming passed on the message here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html).

[Dracon1us]

He appears to get +5 to his intelligence score when he is dealing with plot-related plans.

but only if he keep them secret to the reader

[hamishspence]

I really like how the Giant showed the emotions in panel 6. Pretty impressive for stick figures.

How do you think Haley heard about the failed resistance? There wasn't anyone left from the resistance, and I doubt anyone who escaped would think of contacting Haley. Do you think that would be covered in bonus material for the book?

The Azurites find about it from Niu:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html

The Order find out about it from the Azurites:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0895.html

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[Killer Angel]

I have no idea about the plan, but this is really a huge improvement in the relationship between Elan and "his girlfriend's father". :smallsmile:

[ZestG]

:elan: "I'm participating!"

[Shale]

Why do people keep thinking Geoff betrayed Ian? What could he possibly be getting that would make imprisonment, starvation, and the loss of a leg worth it?

He gets the fabulous reward of him and/or his loved ones not being stabbed to death by Bozzok's underlings.

As for why we think he betrayed Ian...

Back in Greysky: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html)
Bozzok: A few letters to some friends on the Western Continent were all it took on my part. You know, I still don't know what they wrote to him to get him to rush off.

And then, in the Empire of Blood: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html)
Ian: How do you think I got tied up in this mess? My sister asked me to help her and her husband with this rebellion thing.

And then there's how Geoff talks about Bozzok... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html)
Geoff: You've met him? Did he...send you?
Belkar: What? No! Your niece and me, we kicked his ass good a few weeks back.
Geoff: Really? Then...Bozzok's dead?

So, reason 1: Bozzok explicitly says he had multiple allies ask Ian to split town. The letter he got was on behalf of Ivy and Geoff. Logic dictates that the "friends," therefore, were Ivy and Geoff.
And reason 2: Geoff talks about Bozzok like he's still scared of the guy - like he's got something hanging over his head, even a continent away.

The second one's circumstantial, but it supports the first rather nicely.

[pendell]

Relevant strips:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0771.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html

Also relevant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html).

Ian says "you can't trust anyone but family, Pumpkin."

Therefore it is likely Ian only trusts family with his whereabouts.

Therefore it is almost certainly family which keeps dropping him in jail.

We've already seen, in the case of the Draketooth clan, what happens when you rely only on family members and can't trust enough to bring other people in on the secret. Indeed, I have to wonder how much of the original breakup of the order of the scribble is due to Draketooth's inability to trust his companions.

ETA: It's also why Ian distrusts Elan. He assumes family sticks together through thick and thin and are always on the same side. Therefore Tarquin's son must be Tarquin's ally. The idea that not all families work that way is not something he appears to be able to get his mind around.


Respectfully ,

Brian P.

[Orm-Embar]

But then Elan would know that Ian knows, and Tarquin would know. By pretending to accept Elan's plan, Ian knows that Elan doesn't know that he knows. But to be truly paranoid, he would also have to account for the possibility that Elan knows that he knows that Elan knows that he knows, and the possibility that Elan knows that Ian may know that Elan knows that Ian knows that Elan knows that Ian knows. Even though we know that Elan knows nothing.

That's just what Tarquin wants you to think.

Also, thanks Giant. :smallsmile:

[Kish]

He gets the fabulous reward of him and/or his loved ones not being stabbed to death by Bozzok's underlings.
So even though Bozzok thinks Ian is a threat, and even though Ian is leading Geoff into a battle against the Laurinear Guild, who I have a real hard time believing aren't far more powerful than the Boz-sickle, Geoff thinks taking on Bozzok would be such overt suicide that spending the rest of his life in a hellish prison is preferable?

So you're saying Geoff is an old-school converted-thief from back when thieves/rogues got no mechanical benefit from Intelligence then?

[Shale]

All that seems certain is that Geoff and Ivy are Bozzok's "friends," and their job is to keep Ian from staging a successful breakout, thus his getting thrown back in prison over and over. It seems reasonably clear that Geoff is scared of Bozzok for some reason or another, although I guess he could be legitimately devoted to the guy (or his paycheck) and scared that he really had been killed. If I had to make a guess on why they're doing it, it'd be that hostages are involved; There aren't that many ways to keep control over somebody who's an ocean away, and Bozzok seems like the type to promise that some of their more vulnerable relatives would have "accidents" if Ian ever returns to Greysky. Geoff wouldn't be the first person to willingly go to jail to protect people close to him.

As regards their odds of fighting the three empires vs. the odds of a Thieves' Guild coup - remember, until about three minutes ago the plan was not to actively oppose Tarquin & co. in any way. All they did was keep Ian standing around in a jail cell while dodging arena placement. Geoff hasn't had a chance to say a word in response to Amun-Zora's job offer or the revelation that Ian is now facing summary execution (which means a re-arrest and return to the status quo is off the table). He might come clean and say "screw this, Bozzok's going to freak if he hears we're not in prison, let's go back and try our chances there." He might decide that as long as Ian's still on the Western Continent Bozzok won't mind what he gets up to, and roll with it. Or maybe I'm completely wrong, he's just a patsy, and Bozzok's friends are Ivy and somebody else we've never seen or heard of. I kinda doubt that, though.

[DreadArchon]

D'aww. This strip warms my heart. :smallsmile:

[halfeye]

Geoff thinks taking on Bozzok would be such overt suicide that spending the rest of his life in a hellish prison is preferable?
Bozzok is four or more levels higher than Haley.

Hm, I know a thread about that.

While Tarquin didn't know their names, Bozzok was a bigger threat, particularly if they still have relatives (offspring?) they care about in Grey Sky City.

[warrl]

[QUOTE=Liliet;16862353]The ideas on how Elan has managed to come up with a good plan keep piling up. Here's the complete list so far:
1) Dashing Swordsman allows him to use Charisma in place of Intelligence when devising plans that will be untold until executed;
2) He has ranks in Craft: Creative Plan that offset Int penalty;
3) He has ranks in relevant Knowledge skill that synergizes with his understanding of Tarquin;
4) He can add his Bard levels to his Int when devising a plan like that thanks to Bardic Knowledge.

I'd put my bet on 1&3, but anyway Elan making a good plan in this case makes a lot of intuitive non-mechanics-related sense too, given who he's up against.[quote]

Add:

He gets a situational bonus because he, both by nature and because he's a Bard, has a natural understanding of narrative tropes and how to take advantage of them, manipulate them, or avoid them - and, now, when to do each of those things; and he (or his plan) is up against a guy who tries to dictate both what tropes will apply and how they will be fulfilled. And he knows it.

Elan potentially could write a plan that, by use of tropes on his father, allow the resistance to effectively dictate Tarquin's (relevant) actions. Thereby he would in a sense be the one defeating Tarquin... without even being there, and while still being the real hero's comic sidekick.

[Lexible]

Therefore it is almost certainly family which keeps dropping him in jail.

Because to to think otherwise one would have to believe things like powerful divination magic or something?

[Skull the Troll]

why would gannji still want to kill Elan? there shouldn't be any bounty on Elen's head right now.

Thats only because Tarquin hasn't made it back to the palace yet to order one.

[Michaeler]

Add:

He gets a situational bonus because he, both by nature and because he's a Bard, has a natural understanding of narrative tropes and how to take advantage of them, manipulate them, or avoid them - and, now, when to do each of those things; and he (or his plan) is up against a guy who tries to dictate both what tropes will apply and how they will be fulfilled. And he knows it.

That was what I meant when I suggested Bardic Knowledge might apply. Tarquin will always act like a villain from a certain type of story, because that's what he thinks he is. Elan knows these stories, so he can predict what he will do.

[Bulldog Psion]

Because to to think otherwise one would have to believe things like powerful divination magic or something?

Well, Bozzok referred to some of his friends or associates on the other continent writing to Ian to get him to go there, and I believe the comic later indicated that Ian came in response to a message from Geoff and/or Ivy.

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but if that is indeed the case, it's a fairly strong though circumstantial bit of evidence that either one or both of Ian's western continent relatives are betraying him to Bozzok. If that's the case, what better way to keep him there than to ensure he's an ongoing prisoner of Tarquin?

[Kish]

On the one hand, the evidence pointing to Ian being betrayed by Geoff and/or Ivy is extremely strong, stronger (the weird reaction to Bozzok being mentioned) for Geoff than for Ivy.

On the other hand, staying in Tarquin's prison eating lice in order to keep Ian there is extremely...extreme.

[Bulldog Psion]

On the one hand, the evidence pointing to Ian being betrayed by Geoff and/or Ivy is extremely strong, stronger (the weird reaction to Bozzok being mentioned) for Geoff than for Ivy.

On the other hand, staying in Tarquin's prison eating lice in order to keep Ian there is extremely...extreme.

Yes, there's a bit of a disconnect there. Geoff clearly knows Bozzok, and has a strong reaction to him, including relief when he hears that the characters weren't sent by Bozzok. But sitting in a filthy dungeon full of thugs and blood-sucking parasites for years, and voluntarily going back after escaping, requires a martyr's level of self-sacrifice and/or masochism. How on Earth could Bozzok motivate someone to torment themselves in that fashion -- particularly since the sentence in said dungeon is open-ended? :smallconfused:

Geoff looks guilty, but it's hard to imagine why he is guilty. What's in it for him other than interminable suffering?

[Shale]

It's no fun, but what's the alternative? Leave him there unsupervised and hope that whenever he breaks out he goes back to the people who can't seem to keep him hidden from Tarquin's goons? There's probably a hands-off magical solution but only if Geoff and/or Ivy is a spellcaster.

[Bulldog Psion]

It's no fun, but what's the alternative? Leave him there unsupervised and hope that whenever he breaks out he goes back to the people who can't seem to keep him hidden from Tarquin's goons? There's probably a hands-off magical solution but only if Geoff and/or Ivy is a spellcaster.

The point is, why do it at all? The alternative seems to be saying "let Ian escape, and I'll be on my way back to the realm of baths, haircuts, actual food, and absence of unpleasant smells." Why pick option #1 when they are clearly able to escape their confinement?

[Gift Jeraff]

My guess is it's something like

-Ivy benefits from Bozzok being head of the Thieves' Guild--which requires Ian being out of the picture--but she doesn't want her brother dead
-Geoff is afraid of Bozzok, wants his wife to be happy, and also doesn't want his brother-in-law dead, so he endures it all

It's also possible that he has children or something and he's doing it all for their financial security.

[Shale]

For the same reason he's afraid of Bozzok, whatever that is. Maybe they're just betraying him out of the badness of their hearts, but judging from Geoff's reaction it seems like they have some reason to be afraid of him, even half a world away. Like I said before, my bet's on hostage(s) back in Greysky.

[Bulldog Psion]

For the same reason he's afraid of Bozzok, whatever that is. Maybe they're just betraying him out of the badness of their hearts, but judging from Geoff's reaction it seems like they have some reason to be afraid of him, even half a world away. Like I said before, my bet's on hostage(s) back in Greysky.

Which, in turn, suggests we may not have seen the last of Greysky City, Bozzok, and perhaps even Crystal. There's enough material in this comic to be developed into at least two decent-sized sidequest stories.

Mind you, I don't think it will be, but it goes to show that the story has a lot of depth and throws off story ideas like a Persian cat sheds fur.

[halfeye]

My guess is it's something like

-Ivy benefits from Bozzok being head of the Thieves' Guild--which requires Ian being out of the picture--but she doesn't want her brother dead
-Geoff is afraid of Bozzok, wants his wife to be happy, and also doesn't want his brother-in-law dead, so he endures it all

It's also possible that he has children or something and he's doing it all for their financial security.
Maybe Crystal is Geoff's child?

[sengmeng]

Maybe Crystal is Geoff's child?

Their coloration suggests not. There's still a lot of unanswered here, even if "blackmail" is offered as a motivation.

Why can't Geoff keep Ian in jail without joining him?

Why did he take Elan hostage?

Why can't Bozzok kill them all if he can blackmail them?

[BriarHobbit]

Previously, Tarquin was not in trouble. Now. Now, he is in trouble.

[Shale]

Why can't Geoff keep Ian in jail without joining him?

Why did he take Elan hostage?

Why can't Bozzok kill them all if he can blackmail them?

1) How would he? Ian has demonstrated that he can and will break out even with a (presumed) traitor sharing his cell. "Let us know as soon as you get out of jail" might work for a while, but sooner or later he'd figure out that there's a reason the Empire never figures out where he is until he contacts his dear sister and brother-in-law. Scrying's great if Ivy's a wizard or something, but I think that would have come up earlier if she were.

2) Because he's working for Bozzok, not Tarquin.

3) If he were willing to kill Ian he'd have done that back when he took over the Guild. It's speculation, but he may have been worried that if Ian Starshine turns up mysteriously dead, the thieves who are still loyal to him over Bozzok (he's "very popular" among some circles, after all) might suddenly get less non-violent.

[Math_Mage]

It should be noted amidst all this speculation that even if Geoff is Bozzok's plant, Geoff may not think Ian's current actions are all that problematic for him. After all, it's not like Ian has any plans to go back to Greysky City, or even leave the Western Continent. Bozzok's a practical guy, it doesn't really matter to him whether Ian's part of a fake rebellion or a real one as long as he's no threat to Bozzok. That may change, of course, and if it does then we'll see what Geoff's true colors are.

[martianmister]

I'm sure others have already noticed, but currently Team TDT (Take Down Tarquin) is composed of characters that Tarquin dismissed as bit players in "his" narrative, one-scene types to be used and thrown away.

He didn't thrown away Amun-Zora.

[Haar]

He didn't thrown away Amun-Zora.

She was just another cog in his scheme to absorb the continent. Afterwhich she was promptly locked in the dungeon till who-knows-when.

[Amphiox]

He didn't thrown away Amun-Zora.

He was going to force her to marry him, as just the next in a long line of throwaway wives, to be disposed of conveniently when the next fetching maiden catches his eye.

[Burner28]

Interesting development.

[Ramien]

Their coloration suggests not. There's still a lot of unanswered here, even if "blackmail" is offered as a motivation.

Why can't Geoff keep Ian in jail without joining him?

Why did he take Elan hostage?

Why can't Bozzok kill them all if he can blackmail them?

1: He stays with Ian in jail to make sure he stays in jail. Ian's said that most of the time when he escapes, he doesn't get very far, probably sometimes not even leaving the jail. Geoff can do something to get them caught, or warn the guards somehow - I'm half betting that he made a deal with the guards to keep him and Ian off the gladiator lists in return for information on Ian's escapes. On the times when Ian does get out of the jail, Geoff can keep track of him and arrange for them to get caught. He can't do that if Ian decides things are too risky and moves off on his own, because he won't have a way to alert people to his presence.

2: Elan still looks like Tarquin. Geoff may be keeping Ian in jail to appease Bozzok for some reason, most likely blackmail or holding something else over Geoff's head, but that doesn't mean Geoff wants to help Tarquin any more than necessary, or, worst case, is doing it to help cement his cover.

3. Killing Ian, as already mentioned, would not only make certain segments of the Thieves' Guild revolt, but it would have given Haley a motive of revenge rather than just not knowing where her father was (remember the ransom note was not part of Bozzok's plan, so keeping her occupied with freeing him wasn't his idea)

[Sir_Leorik]

Hey, more plot threads getting tied up! Elan is now handing out plans to beat his father like a Shul candy man passing out bags of candy on Simchas Torah!

I suspect that at some point in Book six, when Tarquin is brooding on his throne, complaining bitterly about Elan not playing his part in Tarquin's grand scheme, Amun-Zora, Ian and the rest of the Resistance will put Elan's plan into action. And unlike the Azurite Resistance, who were crushed by Redcloak, the anti-Tarquin forces will triumph!


Elan is setting his expectations pretty low at this point :smallbiggrin:

Well, he did nearly get shiv'ed by Geoff...


Someone who actually suspects Explosive Runes! Ian and Belkar should hang out more.

Belkar never expects Explosive Runes. Belkar never expects the Spanish Inquisition either. :smalltongue:


Also, I really like how Ian Starshine is developing as a father to Haley. Maybe next he'll apologize for teaching her to be paranoid and untrusting.

Whoa, let's not go crazy!


In keeping with the theme of Tarquin not being as important as he thinks, I am 90% certain we will never learn the details of this plan.

I disagree. We will learn the details when Amun-Zora's forces put them into action. We may even get a training montage. :smallwink:

[wumpus]

So you're saying Geoff is an old-school converted-thief from back when thieves/rogues got no mechanical benefit from Intelligence then?

Ian was/is a first ed thief. I'd assume Geoff is as well.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html

[allenw]

Because to to think otherwise one would have to believe things like powerful divination magic or something?

No; because this is a story.

[Arrowstorm122]

I would be super surprised if Tarquin didn't join the battle for the Gate later.

[Lexible]

On the one hand, the evidence pointing to Ian being betrayed by Geoff and/or Ivy is extremely strong, stronger (the weird reaction to Bozzok being mentioned) for Geoff than for Ivy.

On the other hand, staying in Tarquin's prison eating lice in order to keep Ian there is extremely...extreme.

Well... that's one interpretation of Bozzok's claim. Here's another:

As chief of a large municipal thieves' guild, Bozzok maintains collegial relationships with unsavory power-brokers from cities and states around the globe. For example, Jacinda, being a politically well-placed high-level assassin has undoubtedly got strong relationships with organized crime throughout the non-elven humanoid states of the Western Continent. Bozzok's contacts were thus allied with Tarquin &Co., rather than with some two-bit operator like Geoff.

Now, I don't happen to subscribe to this theory, but it seems just as plausible to me as the theory that Geoff (with Ivy) is Bozzok's contact for keeping Ian in line. In fact, there are an infinite number of equally plausible theories. So, I don't buy this "extremely strong" business.

[Shale]

But Ian specifically says it was Ivy and Geoff who asked him to come.

[Ivrytwr]

Nice moments between Haley and Ian.
Ian is not a total turd!
Plus Elan is learning, that may be the best he can hope for from Ian!

Good stripe Giant! Thanks.

[Ramien]

But Ian specifically says it was Ivy and Geoff who asked him to come.

Which can mean that Ivy and/or Geoff (most likely Geoff, for reasons mentioned above by other posters) were the ones who passed the information on the offer to Bozzok.

[Ben Kenobi]

1. Bozzok is paying Tarquin a substantial amount to keep Ian in jail.

Why?

Bozzok took a long time to get ahold of the guild, and wants to remove challenges to his power structure there. Ian being out of Greysky city helps him because it makes his control over the Guild uncontested. He also has a vested and continuing interest in keeping Ian there, as well as maintaining someone to keep an eye on Ian.

That person is Geoff. Geoff has been defeating every one of Ian's plans so far, either by reporting them to Tarquin or by doing something that forces Ian's hand. This is why he was reluctant to go along with Ian's escape plans.

It also makes sense why they got taken off the fight list, not because of Ian's 'strategy', of staying under the radar, but because Bozzok is paying Tarquin.

2. Bozzok convinced Ian to go to Tarquin's because of a standard hostage issue with Ivy, knowing that Ian would want to protect his family and was willing to overthrow Tarquin to do so. Then, Ian came up with the plan of getting arrested and trying to undermine from within.

3. Ian believes that he's trying to save Ivy by taking down Tarquin. He's committed to this goal and hasn't yet clued into why, because of his blind spot with Geoff and Ivy as family. He trusts family but no one else.

4. Geoff. Geoff's not afraid of Bozzok. He's afraid of Bozzok dying. Why? Whatever arrangement he has with Bozzok is gone if Bozzok is dead. The deal with Tarquin would also be off, meaning he's in captivity under Tarquin for real. Geoff is most afraid of Ian putting all the pieces together and exposing his treachery to Ian, especially since he's in the dungeon with him, and there's little that he can get from other people around him save Ian.

Ian is paradoxically his most important link - he needs to protect Ian, and he needs to prevent Ian from finding out about the treachery.

Now as to why? That's a good question. What's in it for Geoff? Why is he, willing to betray Ian? Why is he willing to sit in Jail to ensure that Bozzok knows Ian's whereabouts? What is he getting from Bozzok that would compensate him for this?

Don't know, and we don't have enough to go on yet to figure out all the players here. It's an interesting subplot.

[sengmeng]

1) How would he? Ian has demonstrated that he can and will break out even with a (presumed) traitor sharing his cell. "Let us know as soon as you get out of jail" might work for a while, but sooner or later he'd figure out that there's a reason the Empire never figures out where he is until he contacts his dear sister and brother-in-law. Scrying's great if Ivy's a wizard or something, but I think that would have come up earlier if she were.

2) Because he's working for Bozzok, not Tarquin.

3) If he were willing to kill Ian he'd have done that back when he took over the Guild. It's speculation, but he may have been worried that if Ian Starshine turns up mysteriously dead, the thieves who are still loyal to him over Bozzok (he's "very popular" among some circles, after all) might suddenly get less non-violent.

1. How hard could it be to get the EoB authorities to use a little magical aid to keep track of a prisoner who represents an 825gp a month investment instead of personally supervising?

2. If he's working for Bozzok, and Bozzok wants Ian in prison, how does taking Elan as a hostage further that goal?

3. No one knows where Ian is. How would they know if he was dead on the Western Continent or imprisoned on Bozzok's orders on the Western Continent? And who could Bozzok threaten in order to control Geoff but not Ian?

[Messenger]

The title??? Didn't get it. But nice to see a friendly father-in-law. I remember this father of a girl I dated ...Double meaning. "Relatively" OK meaning "somewhat" OK, referring to how Ian looks at Elan. "Relatively" can also refer to family, as in "relatives", where Elan is possibly Ian's future son-in-law.

(This response has probably long been ninja'd, but what the hey.)

[Shale]

1. How hard could it be to get the EoB authorities to use a little magical aid to keep track of a prisoner who represents an 825gp a month investment instead of personally supervising?

Have you seen their bureaucracy? It actually might be completely impossible to get them to do that. Or it carries an extra fee that's too rich for Geoff and Ivy's budget ("Sure, we can track him...there'll be a weekly fee for Scrying scrolls, of course, so instead of 825 gp per month, the price is now 3625 gp."), or maybe that constant surveillance would clue the EOB in on Ian's knowledge of the plan, and they decide it's worth giving up 10,000 gp a year to make sure he doesn't throw a wrench into things.


2. If he's working for Bozzok, and Bozzok wants Ian in prison, how does taking Elan as a hostage further that goal?

How does turning a blind eye to Tarquin's son dropping by the cell help him play the role of dedicated anti-Tarquin rebel?


3. No one knows where Ian is. How would they know if he was dead on the Western Continent or imprisoned on Bozzok's orders on the Western Continent?

The choice between killing Ian and sending him away somewhere was made two years ago in Greysky, where a bunch of thieves definitely would have noticed their prominent superior dropping dead or disappearing without trace. Bozzok decided to avoid conflict by arranging for Ian to leave of his own accord. Now, as far as he's concerned, it's done with. No reason to dedicate more resources to killing anybody when the situation is completely under control.


And who could Bozzok threaten in order to control Geoff but not Ian?

Literally anybody in Geoff's family other than Ivy and their children, if they even have any. How close are you to your brother-in-law's extended family?

[jidasfire]

One possible explanation for Geoff keeping Ian in jail is to protect his life. Perhaps Bozzok tells Geoff that Ian's a threat to him, and he's probably going to have to kill him. Bozzok goes on to say that he's in a merciful mood, however, and so will allow Ian to live if Geoff finds a way to keep Ian imprisoned and out of his hair forever. So Geoff lures Ian to the Western continent with tales of the vile Tarquin and his schemes, then suggests that hey, maybe they should infiltrate the prison to build an army. After all, they're high-level rogues and no jail can hold them. But of course, Ian being Ian, he really gets into the cause and keeps escaping from jail. Hence, Geoff has to keep helping the Empire to prevent his friend from escaping. For me, this explains why Geoff is giving off all the warning signs of betraying Ian, but genuinely acting like he's his friend to the point of being willing to suffer right along with him.

[Forikroder]

One possible explanation for Geoff keeping Ian in jail is to protect his life. Perhaps Bozzok tells Geoff that Ian's a threat to him, and he's probably going to have to kill him. Bozzok goes on to say that he's in a merciful mood, however, and so will allow Ian to live if Geoff finds a way to keep Ian imprisoned and out of his hair forever. So Geoff lures Ian to the Western continent with tales of the vile Tarquin and his schemes, then suggests that hey, maybe they should infiltrate the prison to build an army. After all, they're high-level rogues and no jail can hold them. But of course, Ian being Ian, he really gets into the cause and keeps escaping from jail. Hence, Geoff has to keep helping the Empire to prevent his friend from escaping. For me, this explains why Geoff is giving off all the warning signs of betraying Ian, but genuinely acting like he's his friend to the point of being willing to suffer right along with him.

or its possible that Geoff is keeping him in prison to prevent others from getting to him maybe hes certain Bozzok is going to send some assasins and is using Tarquins jail as a first line of defence

[rockdeworld]

Wait a second, Elan came up with a plan that's pretty good? Are we sure this isn't just one of those "Snape actually told Mundugus the entire plan" things, and Roy just gave it to Elan so he'd score points with Ian or something?

Actually, that wouldn't be a bad plot either. Better than Laurin secretly putting it in his head, or something.

[sidhe3141]

1. Bozzok is paying Tarquin a substantial amount to keep Ian in jail.

Why?

Bozzok took a long time to get ahold of the guild, and wants to remove challenges to his power structure there. Ian being out of Greysky city helps him because it makes his control over the Guild uncontested. He also has a vested and continuing interest in keeping Ian there, as well as maintaining someone to keep an eye on Ian.

That person is Geoff. Geoff has been defeating every one of Ian's plans so far, either by reporting them to Tarquin or by doing something that forces Ian's hand. This is why he was reluctant to go along with Ian's escape plans.

It also makes sense why they got taken off the fight list, not because of Ian's 'strategy', of staying under the radar, but because Bozzok is paying Tarquin.

2. Bozzok convinced Ian to go to Tarquin's because of a standard hostage issue with Ivy, knowing that Ian would want to protect his family and was willing to overthrow Tarquin to do so. Then, Ian came up with the plan of getting arrested and trying to undermine from within.

3. Ian believes that he's trying to save Ivy by taking down Tarquin. He's committed to this goal and hasn't yet clued into why, because of his blind spot with Geoff and Ivy as family. He trusts family but no one else.

4. Geoff. Geoff's not afraid of Bozzok. He's afraid of Bozzok dying. Why? Whatever arrangement he has with Bozzok is gone if Bozzok is dead. The deal with Tarquin would also be off, meaning he's in captivity under Tarquin for real. Geoff is most afraid of Ian putting all the pieces together and exposing his treachery to Ian, especially since he's in the dungeon with him, and there's little that he can get from other people around him save Ian.

Ian is paradoxically his most important link - he needs to protect Ian, and he needs to prevent Ian from finding out about the treachery.

Now as to why? That's a good question. What's in it for Geoff? Why is he, willing to betray Ian? Why is he willing to sit in Jail to ensure that Bozzok knows Ian's whereabouts? What is he getting from Bozzok that would compensate him for this?

Don't know, and we don't have enough to go on yet to figure out all the players here. It's an interesting subplot.

5. Bozzok tricked Geoff. It started as something fairly simple: "hey, I think Ian can help you with your rebellion" (technically true). But now, he's sacrificed too much to bring Ian in on the rebellion, and Ian has made sacrifices to support it. Like with many scams (and in keeping with one of the comic's themes), the more obvious it becomes to anyone else that he's been suckered, the more difficult it is for him to admit it.

[Cerlis]

My theory (which i think is sensible) is that Bozzak threatened Geoff and his family, to get him to get rid of Ian. Geoff "got rid of him" which is why Bozzak hasnt killed his family (or hired a hit on Geoff) but Geoff is to cowardly/Guilt-ridden to actually make sure Ian dies. However, since keeping Ian in Jail still gets rid of him that Bozzak is holding off on committing his threat against Geoff so long as Ian stays out of the picture.

[Diadem]

I want those last two lines on a t-shirt :)