Mighty Tiger Monk

[Dr. Azkur]

I was thinking I'd like to play a character somehow like this:

Monk 2/Weretiger Template Class 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a)/Tiger Lycantrope Class 6/Warshaper 5/Something 5

Not precisely in that order since some of the Warshaper benefits are just too sexy not to get them ASAP.
I was also thinking to throw Swordsage in there as a last component to cherry-pick maneuvers and, of course, that beautiful double WIS to AC... But I simply can't get over the horrible recovery system, so I was also thinking to just go with Warblade for full BAB and because of Iron Heart, which Swordsage doesn't get.

Shou Disciple was also being considered for the important bonus to unarmed damage, but I don't know if I swing that way I should simply drop Monk.

Feats:
Beast Claws
Improved Unarmed Strike
Snap Kick
Quick Change (After getting Flashmorph for changing forms as a FREE ACTION)
Track (Because I get Scent and nobody is taking this away from me)

What do you think? Any suggestions? Is there a better way to do this? Am I missing anything?

[Metahuman1]

Um, I don't think Swordsage and Monk stack for Wis to AC.

That said, you could maybe start with Swordsage for 2, then later work in a one level dip each for Warblade for Iron Heart and Crusader for some good Devoted Spirit/White Raven stuff. Better charges and mobility and healing while fighting fit right in for typical were creature imagery.

[Dr. Azkur]

Um, I don't think Swordsage and Monk stack for Wis to AC.

Aren't both untyped bonuses defined by the same modifier? If both said "You add your Wisdom modifier as an insight/deflection/cool/whatever bonus to your Armor Class" then yes, I would absolutely agree they don't stack, but I think RAW they do. I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong here either, I just think they do stack.


That said, you could maybe start with Swordsage for 2, then later work in a one level dip each for Warblade for Iron Heart and Crusader for some good Devoted Spirit/White Raven stuff. Better charges and mobility and healing while fighting fit right in for typical were creature imagery.


Flavor does make sense... Let me see how I can stick it in there.

I was also thinking about taking advantage over the fact that I'll be Large, have natural weapons, high STR and get Improved Grab and Rend... which makes for a pretty nice grappler. Any ideas on how to improve that?

[Karnith]

Aren't both untyped bonuses defined by the same modifier? If both said "You add your Wisdom modifier as an insight/deflection/cool/whatever bonus to your Armor Class" then yes, I would absolutely agree they don't stack, but I think RAW they do. I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong here either, I just think they do stack.
The (main) issue is that a Monk's AC Bonus only applies when you're unarmored, while a Swordsage's AC Bonus only applies when you're wearing light armor.
Likely due to poor editing. Gotta love the ToB
Issues of bonus type and source are a separate matter.

[Dr. Azkur]

[...]a Swordsage's AC Bonus only applies when you're wearing light armor. Likely due to poor editing
Holy crap. Poor editing has never bothered me as it is bothering me now. Now making a case for double WIS to AC is going directly against RAW. I may be able to get my DM to allow it but it feels weird.

What would be the other (not main) issues?

[Karnith]

What would be the other (not main) issues?
The other point of contention is/would be the rule that bonuses from the same source don't stack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking). There have been a number of arguments about whether multiple abilities with the same name (here, "AC Bonus") count as the same source for the purposes of stacking. RAI is that they count as the same source and wouldn't stack (see e.g. the FAQ, p. 9 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)), but RAW isn't terribly clear.

[Emperor Tippy]

Aren't both untyped bonuses defined by the same modifier? If both said "You add your Wisdom modifier as an insight/deflection/cool/whatever bonus to your Armor Class" then yes, I would absolutely agree they don't stack, but I think RAW they do. I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong here either, I just think they do stack.

You either need to find a way to get the monk AC bonus while wearing light armor or find an item/feat/spell/feature that has armor that officially counts as both unarmored and light.

Otherwise you can't stack them.

On another note, you can end up with Cha to AC, Int to AC twice, Wis to AC, and Dex to AC when unarmored in the same build. Then you throw on Bracers of Armor +13 (with 12 points of that spent on special abilities) and Inertial Armor augmented fully with an ML of 32 or so.

You can run around appearing pretty much totally naked and yet have an AC of 100 or so at ECL 20.

A Sorcerer can also end up pulling Cha to AC twice while still having 18 levels of Sorcerer.

[Scow2]

You either need to find a way to get the monk AC bonus while wearing light armor or find an item/feat/spell/feature that has armor that officially counts as both unarmored and light.

Otherwise you can't stack them.

On another note, you can end up with Cha to AC, Int to AC twice, Wis to AC, and Dex to AC when unarmored in the same build. Then you throw on Bracers of Armor +13 (with 12 points of that spent on special abilities) and Inertial Armor augmented fully with an ML of 32 or so.

You can run around appearing pretty much totally naked and yet have an AC of 100 or so at ECL 20.

A Sorcerer can also end up pulling Cha to AC twice while still having 18 levels of Sorcerer.... I must know this build!

[Hiro Protagonest]

The (main) issue is that a Monk's AC Bonus only applies when you're unarmored, while a Swordsage's AC Bonus only applies when you're wearing light armor.
Likely due to poor editing. Gotta love the ToB
Issues of bonus type and source are a separate matter.

In any case, if you apply the swordsage bonus when unarmored, it still doesn't stack, because they both have the same name and do the same thing.

Don't ask me how it works, I don't know.

[Metahuman1]

Aren't they also both insight bonuses?


Also, I'll be frank with you, Tiger Claw is good for you first level swordsage Discipline Focus, but you've already got pounce and your large so apart from sudden leap, the mongoose boost line and what ever the 1 maneuver that actually let's you jump and attack with 2 weapons is, it's not doing you that much. Those are really all you want form that school.

Stone Dragon has a stance that gives a +10 bonus to some combat maneuver checks, might be worth a look, or a different one that let's you constrict while grappling, THAT might combine well with rending and multiple natural weapons/unarmed attacks and high str/large size and improved grabs.

And of course Setting Sun, Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind are worth your sword sage levels dabbling around with them.

[Dr. Azkur]

Aren't they also both insight bonuses?
Nope

Also, I'll be frank with you, Tiger Claw is good for you first level swordsage Discipline Focus, but you've already got pounce and your large so apart from sudden leap, the mongoose boost line and what ever the 1 maneuver that actually let's you jump and attack with 2 weapons is, it's not doing you that much. Those are really all you want form that school.

Stone Dragon has a stance that gives a +10 bonus to some combat maneuver checks, might be worth a look, or a different one that let's you constrict while grappling, THAT might combine well with rending and multiple natural weapons/unarmed attacks and high str/large size and improved grabs.

And of course Setting Sun, Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind are worth your sword sage levels dabbling around with them.

Tiger Claw has Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip which is not small counting I flurry and get natural weapons (I could press on the Warshaper cheese but I'm fine with the weretiger ones). And yeah I have pounce so as cool as jumping around is, I won't go with Sudden Leap + Leaping Dragon Stance.

Many thanks on the Stone Dragon advice, I hadn't even considered the discipline but those two sound like very pretty stances! I'll look into it!

[Metahuman1]

Mind, they get caught with Stone Dragons usual problem of if your using them you can't move and must be on the ground.

[Dr. Azkur]

Mind, they get caught with Stone Dragons usual problem of if your using them you can't move and must be on the ground.

Yup! Don't worry, I don't plan on flying around too much.
Although If I did...
http://rlv.zcache.com/flying_tiger_print-d228444537555808197vsu7_500.jpg
Good freaking luck besting my awesome