Will Elan ever find a “good” father figure?

[Acrux]

Relationships with parents, especially fathers, remains one of the enduring themes of OOTS. In the most recent arc we have seen Elan move from worshiping a fantasy version of Tarquin to the realization that there's an alignment divide that ultimately keeps them separated.

In seeking out Julio Scoundrel, Elan plainly admits that he's looking for family among those who are good. Except, it turns out that Julio's values make him an ultimately unsafe person, also.

So then, will Elan eventually find the male role model he's been looking for - someone who shares his values of goodness, freedom, and narrative fluency who can help Elan grow? It seems as though Elan will need to go through some time of grieving for the relationship with his father he thought he'd found, but has lost (not to mention losing his brother).

[Sloanzilla]

I don't think Julio was fully dismissed as an "unsafe" father figure. Certainly not ideal, but sufficient as a counter to Tarquin to still significantly occupy that role for Elan.

Beyond that, there's Durkon, who has some other issues to resolve as he also realizes that the Order has become more family to him than the dwarves ever were.

[oppyu]

I don't think Julio was fully dismissed as an "unsafe" father figure. Certainly not ideal, but sufficient as a counter to Tarquin to still significantly occupy that role for Elan.

Beyond that, there's Durkon, who has some other issues to resolve as he also realizes that the Order has become more family to him than the dwarves ever were.
Julio's willing to endanger the lives of Elan and his friends for a better story (So, I could set up a climactic duel with you and your brother, or give you the means to surreptitiously warn your party Wizard. Hmmmmm... Option A!), Tarquin's a raving lunatic, and Durkon's dead. So... Roy as a Big Brother Mentor/Father Figure?

[Sloanzilla]

Durkon is currently a vampire. That means little in terms of the long term role he may play to Elan or other members of the group.

I did not take Julio's admission that he withheld information to be received by Elan in order to add to the drama as an indication that he was just as bad (or almost just as bad) as Tarquin. It was stated in passing, and not reflected upon by Elan, so I did not interpret that we were supposed to believe Julio has also been established as a poor father figure. It's possible that the viewer was meant to see that Julio is also insufficient, but that was not my interpretation.

[Aquillion]

A father doesn't have to be perfect. Julio has the same obsession with drama that Elan did and his father does, yes, but ultimately he's a good person.

[Socksy]

Julio's willing to endanger the lives of Elan and his friends for a better story (So, I could set up a climactic duel with you and your brother, or give you the means to surreptitiously warn your party Wizard. Hmmmmm... Option A!), Tarquin's a raving lunatic, and Durkon's dead. So... Roy as a Big Brother Mentor/Father Figure?

Or he takes that lvl. of wizard and V becomes one...
V pretty much adopts Elan because she? misses her twins, even though she never really spent any time with them, she now knows she can't see them often or at all.
V remains a parent figure throughout the years, forgetting how fast humans age.
When Elan/Haley/Roy start getting serious stat penalties for aging, she tries to seek out immortality.
The IFCC offer it to her friends and new family, but at a horrible cost, corrupting V and forcing her into Neutral Evil permanently, perhaps even nudging her into accepting immortality as well by letting them turn her into a Yugoloth of some kind.
When the OotS discover their newfound immortality, they are angry at V, who does not understand why- she does not want to lose this family like she lost the last one.
The OotS choose to go out fighting for the greater good once their natural time would be up, sacrificing themselves to seal the rifts, not knowing exactly what V did to get them immortality in the first place. Belkar chooses to sacrifice himself solely to try to get into the CG afterlife.
V discovers this, and Qarr takes some time out of his busy schedule to mock her. She flees to the Chaotic Evil plane to escape said devil, and encounters Sabine.
The nature of the plane, as well as her only remaining... Friend, or whatever Sabine is to her... Corrupt her even further, pushing her towards CE.
Several decades later, an evil caster uses Cacofiend to call a fiend to battle, and V is summoned, only to see that she is facing her two children who Inkyrius had taken from her so long ago. Insane from the nature of the spell and from decades of brooding, Epic from trying to achieve ultimate arcane power, and angry about how she is expected to murder her own children, she destroys the cleric, and seeks Inkyrius out to destroy him? too.

... Where was this going?
Oh, yeah. V might wind up as a parent figure if Elan grabs that wizard level.

[oppyu]

Durkon is currently a vampire. That means little in terms of the long term role he may play to Elan or other members of the group.

I did not take Julio's admission that he withheld information to be received by Elan in order to add to the drama as an indication that he was just as bad (or almost just as bad) as Tarquin. It was stated in passing, and not reflected upon by Elan, so I did not interpret that we were supposed to believe Julio has also been established as a poor father figure. It's possible that the viewer was meant to see that Julio is also insufficient, but that was not my interpretation.
Oh, he's definitely not as bad as Tarquin. As a father figure, he is magnitudes better than Tarquin. Similar to how as a rocket physicist, I am magnitudes better than a toddler. Exhibit B (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) that Julio Scoundrel, while comparatively FOTY, may still be a poor father figure.

Regarding not-Durkon, the forum opinion seems to be that he's sticking around for a while. And while I sympathise with the 'all sentient creatures deserve the presumption that they're worth keeping alive', I draw the line at 'possible father figure for the childish Chaotic Good bard'. Maybe when Durkon comes back, though I'd still buy Roy as more of one.


A father doesn't have to be perfect. Julio has the same obsession with drama that Elan did and his father does, yes, but ultimately he's a good person.
Alignment question of the day; can you be a good person while being Chaotic Neutral?

[Amphiox]

Elan will find that good father figure by becoming one himself, when he and Haley have children.

[Socksy]

Elan will find that good father figure by becoming one himself, when he and Haley have children.

That's adorable you're adorable jfiduwhdjvivufuducjvjchfyfh

It's really late here and it may be my painkillers talking but that's literally the cutest flipping thing I've ever read aahhhhhhhhh:smallredface::smallredface::smallredfa ce::smallredface::smallredface:

[DiamondHooHaMan]

That's adorable you're adorable jfiduwhdjvivufuducjvjchfyfh

It's really late here and it may be my painkillers talking but that's literally the cutest flipping thing I've ever read aahhhhhhhhh:smallredface::smallredface::smallredfa ce::smallredface::smallredface:

:smallsmile: you doing okay there Socksy?

OT: I still see no reason Julio can't be a good one. in fact I think he IS a good one. but I could indeed see Roy filling that role in some way.

[Clistenes]

Lord Shojo should have survived and adopted Haley, grooming her to be the Liar Lady of Azure City, tricking the paladins for another few generations, keeping Elan as her consort and Storytelling Advisor.

[Sloanzilla]

Oh, he's definitely not as bad as Tarquin. As a father figure, he is magnitudes better than Tarquin. Similar to how as a rocket physicist, I am magnitudes better than a toddler. Exhibit B (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) that Julio Scoundrel, while comparatively FOTY, may still be a poor father figure.

Regarding not-Durkon, the forum opinion seems to be that he's sticking around for a while. And while I sympathise with the 'all sentient creatures deserve the presumption that they're worth keeping alive', I draw the line at 'possible father figure for the childish Chaotic Good bard'. Maybe when Durkon comes back, though I'd still buy Roy as more of one.


Alignment question of the day; can you be a good person while being Chaotic Neutral?

1. A comparison to Tarquin would not be sufficient, sure, but there has been nothing presented in the narrative, IMO, that indicates that Julio is not still doing just fine serving as Elan's father figure.
2. You may not, under DnD terms, be able to be a good person while being chaotic neutral, but you could certainly serve as a good father figure or even a good father.
3. Durkon's present vampirism aside, he HAS served as a father figure to Elan and many other characters throughout the series. Remember how quickly he got Roy's sister in line? In fact, it's possible that the paternal role he held (and will again hold) with the group will be a theme of the next book.

[Kaiisaxo]

Elan will find that good father figure by becoming one himself, when he and Haley have children.

It is curious, as soon as I saw the question I thought "Yes, himslef. When he grows into one"

[wyrmhole]

I did not take Julio's admission that he withheld information to be received by Elan in order to add to the drama as an indication that he was just as bad (or almost just as bad) as Tarquin. It was stated in passing, and not reflected upon by Elan, so I did not interpret that we were supposed to believe Julio has also been established as a poor father figure. It's possible that the viewer was meant to see that Julio is also insufficient, but that was not my interpretation.

No way is that intended to imply that Julio is bad, just because he thinks about drama more than people's safety. That's just one of his flaws. It was something Elan used to do, too. It was his how far his father took it that made Elan start thinking about it. So it's not that Julio is bad or insufficient, it's that Elan has in some (and not equal) ways grown beyond both his father-figures.

[Ridureyu]

Elan should go meet my Dad.

My Dad is awesome! :smallbiggrin:

[oppyu]

It is curious, as soon as I saw the question I thought "Yes, himslef. When he grows into one"
Really? People tend to assume that any good person will magically mature into a good father, but that's really wishful thinking a lot of the time. I always saw Elan as a Homer Simpson style of father; irresponsible, unreliable, impulsive. Add a dash of Julio Scoundrel with a sense for adventure and better things to do than raise rugrats, and you have a classic absentee parent (much like Julio Scoundrel). Hope Haley's prepared to be a single mum.

[Sloanzilla]

despite his numerous flaws, Homer Simpson has been shown to be, throughout most of the show's lengthy history, to be a very loving father

[Keltest]

Really? People tend to assume that any good person will magically mature into a good father, but that's really wishful thinking a lot of the time. I always saw Elan as a Homer Simpson style of father; irresponsible, unreliable, impulsive. Add a dash of Julio Scoundrel with a sense for adventure and better things to do than raise rugrats, and you have a classic absentee parent (much like Julio Scoundrel). Hope Haley's prepared to be a single mum.

Haley could easily pound Elan into the dust if she so chose. Besides the fact that she is significantly better at offense than him, Justifiably Angry Women are always able to beat up an otherwise intimidating and (dis)likable character.

[Gopher]

Really? People tend to assume that any good person will magically mature into a good father, but that's really wishful thinking a lot of the time. I always saw Elan as a Homer Simpson style of father; irresponsible, unreliable, impulsive. Add a dash of Julio Scoundrel with a sense for adventure and better things to do than raise rugrats, and you have a classic absentee parent (much like Julio Scoundrel). Hope Haley's prepared to be a single mum.

Is that really how you see Elan? I really don't think he's the type to abandon his family. Heck, I think Haley would be (slightly) more likely to do that.

Elan may be fun-loving, and he may seem irresponsible while there are others around to take responsibility, but he's repeatedly shown that when he knows it's up to him he's more than capable of rising to the occasion, responsibility-wise.

And while his own father leaves something to be desired, he's had a great parental role model in his mother.

[Sloanzilla]

IMO, a big part of being a good parent is patience and unconditional love. There's certainly no complete evidence as to what Rich thinks Elan's parenting abilities would be, but my guess is that the majority of Order of the Stick viewers, including myself, think he'd be a really good daddy.

[oppyu]

despite his numerous flaws, Homer Simpson has been shown to be, throughout most of the show's lengthy history, to be a very loving father
Loving?... Mostly. Even remotely competent, or at the very least not destroying the spirit of his wife and ensuring his children will need decades of therapy? No.

What, don't you watch the Simpsons as a black comedic study into how one unhappy and incredibly stupid man can ruin the lives of everyone around him while the universe showers him with undeserved success? Frank Grimes was the Hero Antagonist of that show.


Haley could easily pound Elan into the dust if she so chose. Besides the fact that she is significantly better at offense than him, Justifiably Angry Women are always able to beat up an otherwise intimidating and (dis)likable character.
Nothing keeps a family together like domestic violence. See; The Simpsons.


Is that really how you see Elan? I really don't think he's the type to abandon his family. Heck, I think Haley would be (slightly) more likely to do that.

Elan may be fun-loving, and he may seem irresponsible while there are others around to take responsibility, but he's repeatedly shown that when he knows it's up to him he's more than capable of rising to the occasion, responsibility-wise.

And while his own father leaves something to be desired, he's had a great parental role model in his mother.
Elan's a nice guy, and would probably make a very fun uncle. Give the kid a few years and character development before seeing if he's ready to consistently rise to the occasion, responsibility-wise, for eighteen years.

[Jay R]

Yes - but he thinks of Roy as a brother, not a father.

[Amphiox]

Really? People tend to assume that any good person will magically mature into a good father, but that's really wishful thinking a lot of the time. I always saw Elan as a Homer Simpson style of father; irresponsible, unreliable, impulsive. Add a dash of Julio Scoundrel with a sense for adventure and better things to do than raise rugrats, and you have a classic absentee parent (much like Julio Scoundrel). Hope Haley's prepared to be a single mum.

I see Elan's character arc, if followed to its logical conclusion, as one where Elan is turning from what you describe (which really only fits Elan before this book) into someone who would make an excellent father -Roy's statement about finding family among people who are good being only the most obvious lampshade of it.

[Aquillion]

Alignment question of the day; can you be a good person while being Chaotic Neutral?Isn't he Chaotic Good? We know that he's been rescuing Tarquin's wives, which doesn't particularly benefit him much (given the danger involved.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Isn't he Chaotic Good? We know that he's been rescuing Tarquin's wives, which doesn't particularly benefit him much (given the danger involved.)
No, Word of Giant has him pegged as Chaotic Neutral.

[Copperdragon]

A part of growing up is that you do not need Father Figures anymore or come to peace with the "bad" (or "neutral") parts of the father figure you had.

Elan is way beyond 20 by now and I think it's safe to say that someone in that age can start to actually grow up. Father Figures (should!) become less important if you're yourself grow up. They only matter if you are near or over 30 and have still unresolved issues with them, but then they matter in a negative way and overcoming that is what "growing up" means.

So I think the question "Will someone who is grown up find a new father figure" is besides the point. If you need to find one at ~25, something is going horribly wrong in your development as a person. That age is where the realisation comes that the day you'll be at your father (figures) funeral comes closer with each day and while he was your father (figure) and you now came to a new relationship with him where you both are grown ups, he is soon entering or already in the last phase of his age.

[HeeJay]

Alignment question of the day; can you be a good person while being Chaotic Neutral?

Of course. You can be good towards some people (like Elan), while being a nastier person with regards to other people, such as "several attractive young heiresses in this town that are quite shamefully lax in securing their most valuable jewelry."

[Kish]

Isn't he Chaotic Good? We know that he's been rescuing Tarquin's wives, which doesn't particularly benefit him much (given the danger involved.)
Sure it does. It benefits his ego and his self-image. Note that he doesn't rescue Tarquin's wives, only his brides-to-be; if he can't rescue them before the wedding, they're on their own.

You don't need to be greedy or cowardly to be nongood.

[hamishspence]

Of course. You can be good towards some people (like Elan), while being a nastier person with regards to other people

How much nastier, is an interesting question.

Generally, "harming or threatening innocents" is the sign of an Evil character - though in some cases it may depend on the degree of harm.

[Keltest]

How much nastier, is an interesting question.

Generally, "harming or threatening innocents" is the sign of an Evil character - though in some cases it may depend on the degree of harm.

that sort of needs an "intentionally" put in front of that. While harm done from ignorance is terrible, it doesn't really say much about the person except they aren't a very good judge of a situation.

[hamishspence]

that sort of needs an "intentionally" put in front of that. While harm done from ignorance is terrible, it doesn't really say much about the person except they aren't a very good judge of a situation."Negligence" may count for culpability, depending on the DM.

Context often makes a difference - but a case could be made that there are evil-aligned characters who have never intentionally harmed innocents,

and conversely, that there might exist Neutral characters who have intentionally harmed innocents- but on far lesser scale than Evil characters might.

[ChristianSt]

I think that people of any alignments can be "good parents", depending on what you mean with "good parents". They can care about other people, too. And I think can raise their children fine - but I think that it has a great impact on the child's outlook, especially Alignment-wise. I think it is quite likely that "good parents" rise their kids more likely in an alignment that is closer to their own alignment. (While their might be kids especially interested in opposing alignments to spite their parents, that is probably more likely a sign of bad parents)




Isn't he Chaotic Good? We know that he's been rescuing Tarquin's wives, which doesn't particularly benefit him much (given the danger involved.)No, Word of Giant has him pegged as Chaotic Neutral.

Here's the relevant post/quote:


Lawful Neutral: Mr. Jones, The CPPD, Kilkil.
Chaotic Neutral: Julio Scoundrél, Jenny, Ian Starshine.
True Neutral: Gannji, Enor, Julia Greenhilt, Vaarsuvius, Mr. Scruffy, Therkla, Right-eye, The Oracle, Hank.
Neutral Evil: Tsukikko, Leeky Windstaff, Pompey, Zz'dtri, Bozzok, Crystal, Grubwiggler, the Snail.
Neutral Good: Lirain, Dorkuan, Kazumi & Daigo.

I'm sure there are others, and some I'm specifically not mentioning.

People with Neutral alignments tend to not go on about it all the time. Lack of talking about it does not equal lack of presence in the comic, but since there's very little to say story-wise that can't ALSO be said with at least one corner alignment, there's not much reason to bring it up.

So actually Ian shares the same alignment - I haven't thought of that before. But it doesn't really seem to me that he sees Ian as a father figure anyway.


Also I think it wouldn't be that hard to say that Julio is Good - I think he is pretty borderline, but especially the Azure City entrance makes it imo easier to say he is Neutral.

[mikeejimbo]

I think part of his lesson might be realizing that he's not going to be able to find a father figure, and has to develop on his own.

[Kish]

As Tarquin recedes into the distance, I suspect Elan will turn his focus away from looking for a good father figure, and to looking for a way to help Roy destroy Xykon.

[Saturosian]

Or he takes that lvl. of wizard and V becomes one...
V pretty much adopts Elan because she? misses her twins, even though she never really spent any time with them, she now knows she can't see them often or at all.
V remains a parent figure throughout the years, forgetting how fast humans age.
When Elan/Haley/Roy start getting serious stat penalties for aging, she tries to seek out immortality.
The IFCC offer it to her friends and new family, but at a horrible cost, corrupting V and forcing her into Neutral Evil permanently, perhaps even nudging her into accepting immortality as well by letting them turn her into a Yugoloth of some kind.
When the OotS discover their newfound immortality, they are angry at V, who does not understand why- she does not want to lose this family like she lost the last one.
The OotS choose to go out fighting for the greater good once their natural time would be up, sacrificing themselves to seal the rifts, not knowing exactly what V did to get them immortality in the first place. Belkar chooses to sacrifice himself solely to try to get into the CG afterlife.
V discovers this, and Qarr takes some time out of his busy schedule to mock her. She flees to the Chaotic Evil plane to escape said devil, and encounters Sabine.
The nature of the plane, as well as her only remaining... Friend, or whatever Sabine is to her... Corrupt her even further, pushing her towards CE.
Several decades later, an evil caster uses Cacofiend to call a fiend to battle, and V is summoned, only to see that she is facing her two children who Inkyrius had taken from her so long ago. Insane from the nature of the spell and from decades of brooding, Epic from trying to achieve ultimate arcane power, and angry about how she is expected to murder her own children, she destroys the cleric, and seeks Inkyrius out to destroy him? too.

... Where was this going?
Oh, yeah. V might wind up as a parent figure if Elan grabs that wizard level.

Beautiful tangent. I think this just became my headcanon.


Isn't he Chaotic Good? We know that he's been rescuing Tarquin's wives, which doesn't particularly benefit him much (given the danger involved.)

Well, it isn't entirely without benefit; I mean, that p-o'd look on Tarquin's face has to count for something. And if some of his rescuees happen to fall for their dashing rescuer, well, all the more reason for Julio to involve himself, for non-good reasons. It's a pretty common trope for the damsel-in-distress to fall for her rescuer, as Julio well knows, and in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails, we see him explicitly rescue Virginia for just that reason.and we know that she was one of T's brides-to-be, too (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16471412#post16471412).

[Gopher]

Elan's a nice guy, and would probably make a very fun uncle. Give the kid a few years and character development before seeing if he's ready to consistently rise to the occasion, responsibility-wise, for eighteen years.

What responsibilities of parenthood do you think that Elan is unable to face? Elan knows the adolescent mindset. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html) Elan finds a way to be enthusiastic about almost everything he does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html), so I don't the day-to-day drudgery of parenthood would overwhelm him. He and Haley will probably be set for life after this adventure, so I don't see bills being a problem either.

Honestly, the only challenge I can imagine him being unprepared to face is if one of his children turned out to be evil. Even then, the last thing I'd expect him to do is give up and abandon them. Heck, he even seemed to love Nale unconditionally.

[oppyu]

What responsibilities of parenthood do you think that Elan is unable to face? Elan knows the adolescent mindset. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html) Elan finds a way to be enthusiastic about almost everything he does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html), so I don't the day-to-day drudgery of parenthood would overwhelm him. He and Haley will probably be set for life after this adventure, so I don't see bills being a problem either.

Honestly, the only challenge I can imagine him being unprepared to face is if one of his children turned out to be evil. Even then, the last thing I'd expect him to do is give up and abandon them. Heck, he even seemed to love Nale unconditionally.
Sure, Elan can find the adventure in travelling to the Southern lands and doing a handstand covered in jam, balancing a squirrel and a lantern on his feet, holding one of those ping pong paddles with the ball attached to it with a string, and attaching a stick to his body and holding a roller skate from that stick. Being a parent is a tremendously unfun experience (apparently it's also emotionally rewarding, but not fun), and Elan is the type who needs fun at this point in his life. What happens when the response to the jam thing is

:haley: Elan! I need you to stop being... you, and feed the child!
:elan: Awwww. Can't you do it?

Oh yeah, I'm also pretty certain Elan and Haley would break up if they tried to transition straight from 'adventuring badarses' to 'domestic parenthood'. Elan would feel tied down and bored, and Haley would feel tied down, bored and like she was raising two children by herself. Eventually they'd both get so fed up that Roy & Celia would get a call one day and ask if they'd like to be parents.

[Golt]

Sure, Elan can find the adventure in travelling to the Southern lands and doing a handstand covered in jam, balancing a squirrel and a lantern on his feet, holding one of those ping pong paddles with the ball attached to it with a string, and attaching a stick to his body and holding a roller skate from that stick. Being a parent is a tremendously unfun experience (apparently it's also emotionally rewarding, but not fun), and Elan is the type who needs fun at this point in his life. What happens when the response to the jam thing is

:haley: Elan! I need you to stop being... you, and feed the child!
:elan: Awwww. Can't you do it?
Uhhmm... Hate to brake it for you, but "this point in his life" was hundreds of pages ago. He has grown and eveloped a lot since then. Pretty much this entire book was just about that.

[oppyu]

Uhhmm... Hate to brake it for you, but "this point in his life" was hundreds of pages ago. He has grown and eveloped a lot since then. Pretty much this entire book was just about that.
Yes, he's growing as a character and understands his family is screwed up. That does not equal 'this dude is ready to settle down and be a father right now'. It's easy to say how mature and non-fun oriented someone is when they're on a massive world-altering adventure that fills their entire lives with suspense and danger, it's another thing to continue being that way when the most dangerous thing on the horizon is the rent bill you're not quite ready to pay. I'm not saying he'll never be ready to be a Dad, but he's still kind of a big kid right now (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html), and figuring out that his mommy and daddy will never get back together didn't magically turn him into a completely mentally competent adult. Having bursts of competence and responsibility during plot-critical moments is not enough.

[Amphiox]

Yes, he's growing as a character and understands his family is screwed up. That does not equal 'this dude is ready to settle down and be a father right now'. It's easy to say how mature and non-fun oriented someone is when they're on a massive world-altering adventure that fills their entire lives with suspense and danger, it's another thing to continue being that way when the most dangerous thing on the horizon is the rent bill you're not quite ready to pay. I'm not saying he'll never be ready to be a Dad, but he's still kind of a big kid right now (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html), and figuring out that his mommy and daddy will never get back together didn't magically turn him into a completely mentally competent adult. Having bursts of competence and responsibility during plot-critical moments is not enough.

Has anyone said anything about right now?

Truth be told, in real life almost no one is actually "ready" to be a good parent before they have a child. Good parenting is a process, not a state. It isn't about being a good parent, it is about becoming a better parent, day after day after day.

[martianmister]

Has anyone said anything about right now?

Ahem...



Elan's a nice guy, and would probably make a very fun uncle. Give the kid a few years and character development before seeing if he's ready to consistently rise to the occasion, responsibility-wise, for eighteen years.What responsibilities of parenthood do you think that Elan is unable to face? Elan knows the adolescent mindset. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html) Elan finds a way to be enthusiastic about almost everything he does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html), so I don't the day-to-day drudgery of parenthood would overwhelm him...

.....................

[Gopher]

Sure, Elan can find the adventure in travelling to the Southern lands and doing a handstand covered in jam, balancing a squirrel and a lantern on his feet, holding one of those ping pong paddles with the ball attached to it with a string, and attaching a stick to his body and holding a roller skate from that stick. Being a parent is a tremendously unfun experience (apparently it's also emotionally rewarding, but not fun), and Elan is the type who needs fun at this point in his life. What happens when the response to the jam thing is

:haley: Elan! I need you to stop being... you, and feed the child!
:elan: Awwww. Can't you do it?

Oh yeah, I'm also pretty certain Elan and Haley would break up if they tried to transition straight from 'adventuring badarses' to 'domestic parenthood'. Elan would feel tied down and bored, and Haley would feel tied down, bored and like she was raising two children by herself. Eventually they'd both get so fed up that Roy & Celia would get a call one day and ask if they'd like to be parents.You're talking about the guy who cheered for two panels about fixing a door. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html) Elan doesn't need fun, he makes it.

How "fun" do you think the adventuring life is, anyway? The Order spends most of their time marching from sunrise to sunset in all weathers with nothing to eat but iron rations. Elan has been stabbed, beaten, imprisoned, poisoned, burned with acid, and watched good people die in horrible ways.

Also keep in mind that it's a medieval world. I'm not saying that running a household was easier back then, but the difficulties were more physical than mental. I think that after living the adventuring life, making sure they have enough firewood for the winter won't be such a big deal.

It's also a fantasy world. Who says the adventure would leave their life once they settle down? Maybe the most challenging part of parenting for them would be protecting their offspring from all their old enemies.

@Above- What I said does not preclude Elan (and Haley) growing as parents over time. That said, I do hate when people say "no one is saying that..." as if they're the only participants in the discussion, so good job pointing that out.

[Amphiox]

This being D&D, we mustn't dismiss the possibility of magical parenting aids to reduce some of that drudgery. Somewhere out there are probably scrolls for "Edwin's Diaper Cleaning Cantrip," and the like.

[Gopher]

This being D&D, we mustn't dismiss the possibility of magical parenting aids to reduce some of that drudgery. Somewhere out there are probably scrolls for "Edwin's Diaper Cleaning Cantrip," and the like.
True. Historically, I don't think they even used diapers back then (they still don't in some parts of the world.) Then again, diapers would be far from the first anachronism we've seen in OOTS.

Correction after research: In colder climates some form of diaper has been used throughout recorded history, it's only in warmer climates that other methods are used.

[Rodin]

We actually have proof of OOTS diapers.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html

What disturbs me is that

A) I knew that at all.

and

B) I was able to guess the relevant comic within 5 strips (guessed 700, it's strip 703).

[Aquillion]

This being D&D, we mustn't dismiss the possibility of magical parenting aids to reduce some of that drudgery. Somewhere out there are probably scrolls for "Edwin's Diaper Cleaning Cantrip," and the like.Technically, I think you can use prestidigitation to clean diapers.

[oppyu]

We actually have proof of OOTS diapers.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html

What disturbs me is that

A) I knew that at all.

and

B) I was able to guess the relevant comic within 5 strips (guessed 700, it's strip 703).
Your OOTS-fu enriches all of us.

Also, modern day parents would likely literally kill for the combination of diapers and prestidigitation. People would be signing up to the arcane spellcaster colleges in droves just to learn that spell. (Mending would also likely be a popular choice.)

[Jay R]

We actually have proof of OOTS diapers.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html

What disturbs me is that

A) I knew that at all.

and

B) I was able to guess the relevant comic within 5 strips (guessed 700, it's strip 703).

That was actually a late reference. Diapers were first referred to in On the Origin of the PCs.

[Amphiox]

Technically, I think you can use prestidigitation to clean diapers.

But wouldn't the diaper get dirty again after 1hour?

Then again, within a certain age range the diaper could be getting dirty again in less than one hour...

Of course, this gets into a theme that's been touched on in other threads, which is that in D&D universes there's a lot of incentive for common people with enough base INT and the resources to pay for the education to get the training to get the first level in Wizard, just for the utility of those cantrips and level one spells in daily life. It's not as if the low hit dice is a deterrent at those levels. So what if the cat kills you a round or two sooner?

[Mike Havran]

I don't think Elan needs a father figure anymore. He has already matured.

[Lord Vukodlak]

But wouldn't the diaper get dirty again after 1hour?

No " Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour."

The cleaning effect doesn't wear off simply because the spell expired.

[b_jonas]

Rodin, Jay R: baby Elan and Nale also wear diapers in strip #50 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).

[martianmister]

Interestingly, Roy was wearing diapers as well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html).

[Amphiox]

Interesting. We start with a thread about father figures, we end with an exhaustive compendium of every instance of a diaper being drawn in comic....

[Procyonpi]

Roy is pretty much a Good father figure for Elan, IMO.

[Sir_Leorik]

Relationships with parents, especially fathers, remains one of the enduring themes of OOTS. In the most recent arc we have seen Elan move from worshiping a fantasy version of Tarquin to the realization that there's an alignment divide that ultimately keeps them separated.

In seeking out Julio Scoundrel, Elan plainly admits that he's looking for family among those who are good. Except, it turns out that Julio's values make him an ultimately unsafe person, also.

So then, will Elan eventually find the male role model he's been looking for - someone who shares his values of goodness, freedom, and narrative fluency who can help Elan grow? It seems as though Elan will need to go through some time of grieving for the relationship with his father he thought he'd found, but has lost (not to mention losing his brother).

What about Roy? He's the perfect father figure for Elan: slightly stern, but forgiving (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html), willing to hang out and go adventuring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html), and willing to make sacrifices (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html) on Elan's behalf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0235.html). Plus Roy makes sure Elan dresses himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0027.html) and goes to bed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0336.html), and Roy even lets Elan stay up an extra half hour later than his bedtime on weekends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)!

Or Sir Francois, though Sir Francois would probably rather have his brains eaten by an Illithid, a Harpy chew his intestines, a Beholder disintegrate his legs, and a Warforged breaks his fingers, simultaneously, than ever adventure with Elan again. Period.

[veti]

Elan is, despite occasional appearances, a grown man. He's not six, or even sixteen any more.

At this stage of his life he doesn't need a father figure to "be there for him", or "set boundaries" or any such nonsense. In so far as he needs a father figure at all, it'd be someone who understands his worldview and is willing to advise/counsel him on how better to achieve his goals.

Julio fills that role perfectly.

[b_jonas]

Yes. Serini will adopt both Roy and Elan as his sons, and he will become this good father figure. (Alternately, Shoulder Pad Guy will.)

[The Oni]

Julio is a good person, but as a father, literally the worst in OOTS. Yes, that includes Tarquin. Dude's got more kids than Zeus, is rich enough to buy an airship, and you know he ain't paying child support.

[DeliaP]

Having bursts of competence and responsibility during plot-critical moments is not enough.

In a funny sort of way, that is almost exactly what it takes.... It's just that what constitutes 'the plot' and a 'plot critical moment' has undergone a truly radical refocus...




Truth be told, in real life almost no one is actually "ready" to be a good parent before they have a child. Good parenting is a process, not a state. It isn't about being a good parent, it is about becoming a better parent, day after day after day.

This. 100%.

[Sir_Leorik]

Julio is a good person, but as a father, literally the worst in OOTS. Yes, that includes Tarquin. Dude's got more kids than Zeus, is rich enough to buy an airship, and you know he ain't paying child support.

That may not be true!

In the letters column to Julio Scoundrel's comic book, is a letter from Mr. Jones notifying Captain Scoundrel of intent to file a paternity suit against him. Does Julio pay any of these suits? Who knows, but we have evidence that Jones & Associate have filed them in the past, and that Julio has been trying to remind his readers about which PO Box is for fan mail to the comic and which is for lawsuits!

[veti]

Julio is a good person, but as a father, literally the worst in OOTS. Yes, that includes Tarquin. Dude's got more kids than Zeus, is rich enough to buy an airship, and you know he ain't paying child support.

You think the biggest thing Elan needs from a parent is someone to send his mother some money every month?

Whether JS does or doesn't take any responsibility for his biological children (assuming he has any) really doesn't have much bearing on what he can, can't, will or won't do for Elan.

In my opinion, he's been exactly the father figure Elan needed. He's validated Elan's worldview, taught him how to be more effective at achieving his aims, saved him from a scrape - and now he's passed down a (presumably useful) keepsake to remember him by, and bowed out, thus ensuring that Elan remains his own person and doesn't start to rely on his "father figure". What more could he do?

[The Oni]

I was kidding, guys.

@ Sir Leorik: Shame, I haven't read that, but it sounds hilarious and also enlightening!

[Amphiox]

Whether JS does or doesn't take any responsibility for his biological children (assuming he has any) really doesn't have much bearing on what he can, can't, will or won't do for Elan.

He has taken at least some responsibility for at least one. Bandana, the lead crewmember on his ship, is one of his daughters.

And we can also to some extent compare how she turned out to how the one child Tarquin took direct responsibility for turned out.

ie Nale.

[ti'esar]

He has taken at least some responsibility for at least one. Bandana, the lead crewmember on his ship, is one of his daughters.

And we can also to some extent compare how she turned out to how the one child Tarquin took direct responsibility for turned out.

ie Nale.

Actually, she's implicitly the daughter of former helmsman Fidel Secundus (who appears in the SSDT story).

[happyman]

You think the biggest thing Elan needs from a parent is someone to send his mother some money every month?

Whether JS does or doesn't take any responsibility for his biological children (assuming he has any) really doesn't have much bearing on what he can, can't, will or won't do for Elan.

In my opinion, he's been exactly the father figure Elan needed. He's validated Elan's worldview, taught him how to be more effective at achieving his aims, saved him from a scrape - and now he's passed down a (presumably useful) keepsake to remember him by, and bowed out, thus ensuring that Elan remains his own person and doesn't start to rely on his "father figure". What more could he do?

For references on JS' children, see this strip! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html)

[allenw]

Yes. Serini will adopt both Roy and Elan as his sons, and he will become this good father figure.

Only if Elan loans her the Belt of Gender Changing.

[Link]

julio is his "good" father figure. just not necessarily on the aliginment chart. 'nuff said