What would be necessary for a tier 3 generalist caster class?

[OldTrees1]

I am wondering what it would take to make a tier 3 generalist caster class.

[HunterOfJello]

Factotum 5/Chameleon 10

a.k.a. Mr Generalist Everything

[Siosilvar]

Factotum.

For a more helpful answer, it's not really possible without very strict limits on how often and what spells you can cast, because general spell access means you can do anything.

[eggynack]

A bard seems pretty close. They get a wide swath of spells of all varieties, except slow in progression.

[Emperor Tippy]

You need to go through and remove, tweak, replace, modify, or otherwise deal with a whole host of spells.

I mean, people say Factotum but honestly that really should be Tier 2. It has native access to Planar Binding and really that is all you need to meet the power requirements.

It also depends on whether you mean a technical tier 3 (i.e. its tier 3 because while it can utterly dominate on a tactical level it just lacks strategic reach) or a balanced tier 3 (i.e. its balanced with the tier 3 average on a tactical and strategic level). Because technical tier 3 is doable just be by removing thirty or so spells from the Wizard spell list. Or half a dozen Psion powers.

[OldTrees1]

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Let's aim for the bolded description.

@HunterOfJello
A build is not a class.

@Siosilvar
Hmm. Factotums can select new spells each day from a broad list. Presenting them as a tier 3 generalist caster is interesting. Thanks

The ability to do all things is compatible with Tier 3.

@eggynack
Good point about Bards


Drawing from what Siosilvar and eggynack are saying, a Tier 3 generalist would have to use a slower progression than a Tier 3 specialist caster.

@Tippy
A Balanced Tier 3 would be ideal.

Good point about problem spells. Would you please list those ~30 spells and ~6 powers?

[bekeleven]

For reference, what is the balance of a class identical to the wizard, but with bard spells per day? Same thing with the cleric?

If that ends up tier 2, just swap bard spells per day for duskblade spells per day. Should bring wizards and clerics down to tier 3 one way or the other.

[Grod_The_Giant]

There are pretty much two ways to do it that I can see:

You could try to write a "specialized generalist" list, in the vein of the Warmage and Beguiler, picking only middling-to-low-power spells. This may or may not be possible to pull off, and would probably depend a lot on how finicky people are about what is and isn't broken. (Silent Image? Seriously?)
You could allow more open access, but delay progression-- capping at 6th or 7th level ought to do it. This is easier, and probably deals with a lot of the borderline spells, but leaves you open to, say, Planar Binding.

Or you can try to do something funky... I made an attempt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325646), though I'm not sure how it worked. I think I dropped tactical power well down without hurting strategic power as much as some people would like, to borrow Tippy's breakdown.


Good point about problem spells. Would you please list those ~30 spells and ~6 powers?
I second this request.

[Oscredwin]

Basically, I would slow progression. Cut a fair number of unbalanced spells (Planar Binding, etc) and build something with class features and slower spell progression. Get 9th level spells at 19 or 20 or something.

[Slipperychicken]

I mean, people say Factotum but honestly that really should be Tier 2. It has native access to Planar Binding and really that is all you need to meet the power requirements.

I'd say that the class overall remains in Tier 3, even if munchkinry can push a given build up to Tier 2.


Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.


Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier in terms of tier descriptions, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level. As a rule, parties function best when everyone in the party is within 2 Tiers of each other (so a party that's all Tier 2-4 is generally fine, and so is a party that's all Tier 3-5, but a party that has Tier 1 and Tier 5s in it may have issues).

EDIT: Upon reflection, I see where you're coming from, given that a Factotum has a large number of gamebreakers because it can access the whole sorc/wizard list up to 7th level. However, that may just be a case of optimization bumping it up one tier.

[GameSpawn]

The Shugenja from Complete Divine is probably about the closest I've seen among published "pure casters". It can fill all the traditional spell caster roles, but not all of them at once, and it doesn't have the kind of gamebreaking spells that other full, non-specialized casters do.

[nedz]

The question is a bit of a contradiction since generalist casters tend to be Tier 1 or Tier 2, which is the point of the Tier system. It's not the broken spells, but the ability to resolve challenges. Themed casters, with a fixed list, tend to be Tier 3.

[OldTrees1]

The question is a bit of a contradiction since generalist casters tend to be Tier 1 or Tier 2, which is the point of the Tier system. It's not the broken spells, but the ability to resolve challenges. Themed casters, with a fixed list, tend to be Tier 3.

A generalist caster is iconic to D&D. However the current generalist casters all break the Tier 3 - Tier 2 barrier. A generalist warrior build/class or generalist skillmonkey class/build reaches Tier 3. The question is what changes to the game/alterations to the caster class would be needed to make a Tier 3 caster.

So far it sounds like:
Fix/remove the problem spells (see Tippy's post for the reference)
Have slowed casting (references to Factotum and Bard)
Have weaker & broader class features than the Themed casters

[nedz]

Those things help, but they don't resolve the issue. If you are a generalist caster then you are going to have lots of spells to solve a wide range of problems and thus be high tier.

[eggynack]

Those things help, but they don't resolve the issue. If you are a generalist caster then you are going to have lots of spells to solve a wide range of problems and thus be high tier.
Not necessarily. Let's say you get all wizard spells, but at bardic or even adept spell progression. Thus, a general assortment of spells, but they're less powerful than ordinary spells to the extent that the class won't break into tier two. Straight bard is also an option, as I mentioned above. Honestly, I'm not sure what a bard is lacking that would keep them from being a generalist caster in tier three, so I don't see the issue here. Some modulation can exist, with a wider variety of spells at a slower progression, but this is definitely a solvable problem, especially because I'm claiming that the solutions are already out there.

[OldTrees1]

Those things help, but they don't resolve the issue. If you are a generalist caster then you are going to have lots of spells to solve a wide range of problems and thus be high tier.


capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with.

Being able to contribute to a wide range of problems is not a problem.
Being able to solve encounters with a single ability is a problem.

What needs to happen to move from "solving encounters with a single ability" to "capable of doing all things, but not as well"?

[GameSpawn]

A generalist caster is iconic to D&D. However the current generalist casters all break the Tier 3 - Tier 2 barrier. A generalist warrior build/class or generalist skillmonkey class/build reaches Tier 3. The question is what changes to the game/alterations to the caster class would be needed to make a Tier 3 caster.

So far it sounds like:
Fix/remove the problem spells (see Tippy's post for the reference)
Have slowed casting (references to Factotum and Bard)
Have weaker & broader class features than the Themed casters

The first and third suggestions are why I brought up Shugenja; I think it's spell list is a pretty good starting point for a generalist caster with no really broken spells. You could remove element focus, reduce spells per day/spells known slightly, and I think you'd easily have a tier 3 generalist caster.

The bard, while a pretty well balanced class, isn't easily made into a pure caster; generally, you rely on other abilities to be useful. Further, it doesn't really have the flashy offensive spells people tend to expect from casters (like fireball and lightning bolt; these choices might be sub-optimal, but they're also iconic).

[eggynack]

The bard, while a pretty well balanced class, isn't easily made into a pure caster; generally, you rely on other abilities to be useful. Further, it doesn't really have the flashy offensive spells people tend to expect from casters (like fireball and lightning bolt; these choices might be sub-optimal, but they're also iconic).
Does it necessarily need to be a pure caster? I mean, you could probably remove the non-casting bits and end up with a tier three. Adding fireball to their list probably wouldn't dramatically increase their tier either. I mostly mention the bard because it has some minor cleric type healing stuff in addition to the larger amount of wizardish stuff. There's really a lot of ways to do this, I think, some more complicated than others.

[OldTrees1]

Does it necessarily need to be a pure caster?

It needs to be 90% caster. Hybrid classes (Caster/Warrior or Caster/Skillmonkey) would be separate classes from the Generalist Caster class.

@GameSpawn
Good point on the Shuenja spell list (minus the elemental focus)

[GameSpawn]

Does it necessarily need to be a pure caster?

That was my interpretation of the OP; I could be wrong.


I mean, you could probably remove the non-casting bits and end up with a tier three. Adding fireball to their list probably wouldn't dramatically increase their tier either. I mostly mention the bard because it has some minor cleric type healing stuff in addition to the larger amount of wizardish stuff. There's really a lot of ways to do this, I think, some more complicated than others.

You definitely could use the bard as a base; I just think shugenja would be easier.

[Gemini476]

Well, let's take a look at the Tier 3 specialized "wizards".

Spells known:
{table=head]Level|Beguiler|Dread Necromancer|Warmage
0th|7|0|4
1st|14|12|13
2nd|19|12|11
3rd|20|7|10
4th|11|13|12
5th|11|15|7
6th|8|9|8
7th|8|7|8
8th|7|4|7
9th|6|5|6[/table]

If you are aiming for making a "tier 3 generalist caster" in the vein of the existing tier 3 "specialized casters", and define "generalist" as "not focused on any particular school", this would be my suggestion:
Spontaneous list caster, with Spells Known divided equally between the eight schools of magic.
Spells known:
{table=head]Level|Spells
0th|8
1st|16
2nd|16
3rd|16
4th|16
5th|16
6th|8
7th|8
8th|8
9th|8[/table]
So mostly two spells known/level from each school of magic, with the higher levels having just one each. It does end up knowing 112 spells between level one and nine, but most of those aren't stellar. A Sorcerer wins out by virtue of being able to cherry-pick the best spells.

I'm sure that you can find two non-broken-but-useful spells from each school for each level, although whatever you do remember that spells are accessible one level before a Wizard would get it due to Versatile Spellcaster. So no putting Shapechange on the list just because people tend to play at lower levels than level 18 - the class'll get 'em at level 16.

Here's an example of what the spell list could be like, if just going by Core:
0th-Resistance, Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Daze, Light, Ghost Sound, Touch of Fatigue, Mage Hand
1st-Alarm, Shield, Mount, Obscuring Mist, Detect Secret Doors, Identify, Charm Person, Hypnotism, Shocking Grasp, Tenser's Floating Disk, Disguise Self, Nystul's Magic Aura, Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall
2nd-Arcane Lock, Resist Energy, Melf's Acid Arrow, Summon Swarm, Detect Thoughts, See Invisibility, Daze Monster, Touch of Idiocy, Shatter, Gust of Wind, Minor Image, Misdirection, Command Undead, Spectral Hand, Levitate, Whispering Wind
3rd-Dispel Magic, Nondetection, Phantom Steed, Sleet Storm, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Tongues, Heroism, Suggestion, Fireball, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Illusory Script, Invisibility Sphere, Gentle Repose, Vampiric Touch, Fly, Greater Magic Weapon
4th-Dimensional Anchor, Remove Curse, Dimension Door, Minor Creation, Arcane Eye, Detect Scrying, Charm Monster, Confusion, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Wall of Fire, Hallucinatory Terrain, Illusory Wall, Bestow Curse, Fear, Mass Enlarge Person, Mass Reduce Person
5th-Break Enchantment, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Cloudkill, Wall of Stone, Prying Eyes, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Feeblemind, Mind Fog, Sending, Wall of Force, Dream, Seeming, Blight, Waves of Fatigue, Passwall, Telekinesis
6th-Antimagic Field, Acid Fog, True Seeing, Greater Heroism, Chain Lightning, Shadow Walk, Eyebite, Disintegrate
7th-Spell Turning, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Vision, Power Word Blind, Delayed Blast Fireball, Project Image, Control Undead, Statue
8th-Dimensional Lock, Maze, Discern Location, Binding, Polar Ray, Screen, Clone, Iron Body
9th-Imprisonment, Teleportation Circle, Foresight, Dominate Monster, Meteor Swarm, Weird, Soul Bind, Time Stop

Do note that some of those are just there because of the alternatives. Did you know that there while there are eight Transmutation spells at first level, Enchantment only has two that aren't Sleep?
Also the list is pretty bad in general because of the general lack of average spells in Core, but eh.

[eggynack]

You definitely could use the bard as a base; I just think shugenja would be easier.
Sure. There're definitely a lot of ways to pull this off, with varying degrees of viability. I rather like the chameleon suggestion up near the top. In any case, it's definitely a feasible thing. Any proposed solution would probably just require some tweaking to fit in with the OP's specific generalist caster goals.