So, here's a question.

[Metahuman1]

Actually, a couple of them.

First, I've heard it said that RAW, one can use the Water Orc from Unearthed Arcana and both the Half Minotaur and Half Oger Templates from Dragon Mag 313 on the same character for a total of LA 1. Can someone explain please how that works RAW?

Now, here's the second question, I'm considering doing this on a character at some point down the line, and using the Were Tiger Class's found here.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a

If I've added the number's right, that nails me a grand total of +20 Str and +8 Con with out the Tiger levels with a -2 Dex, and a total of +32 Str, +14 Con and +2 to Dex.

So, my big question is would a primarily Melee build really need stat boosters to EITHER of those build out's in the forms of belts of giants strength, Amulet's of health and Gloves of Dex, or can it get buy with out them in a low to mid op game and still be "Big strong brink of a badass?"

[BrokenChord]

Actually, a couple of them.

First, I've heard it said that RAW, one can use the Water Orc from Unearthed Arcana and both the Half Minotaur and Half Oger Templates from Dragon Mag 313 on the same character for a total of LA 1. Can someone explain please how that works RAW?

Now, here's the second question, I'm considering doing this on a character at some point down the line, and using the Were Tiger Class's found here.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a

If I've added the number's right, that nails me a grand total of +20 Str and +8 Con with out the Tiger levels with a -2 Dex, and a total of +32 Str, +14 Con and +2 to Dex.

So, my big question is would a primarily Melee build really need stat boosters to EITHER of those build out's in the forms of belts of giants strength, Amulet's of health and Gloves of Dex, or can it get buy with out them in a low to mid op game and still be "Big strong brink of a badass?"

Hm... By my own definitions, yes you'd need items for mid-op, but no in true low-op. Which I might add doesn't make much sense, because really, if anything that I'd call "low" op is being implemented, being a three halfs of a race even for a melee build based on technically RAW but completely against the spirit of RAI rules... Get ready to dodge flying DMGs, and if you want to avoid that, try eating your food with a bit less cheese.

[OldTrees1]

Actually, a couple of them.

First, I've heard it said that RAW, one can use the Water Orc from Unearthed Arcana and both the Half Minotaur and Half Oger Templates from Dragon Mag 313 on the same character for a total of LA 1. Can someone explain please how that works RAW?

1a) Each of the templates is +1LA so it is +2LA total
1b) Each of those templates tries to increase your size if you are Small or Medium size at the time. Unfortunately the authors foolishly allowed the templates to grant the increase in size modifiers to abilities in addition to the racial modifiers to abilities.

So a Water Orc Half Minotaur Half Ogre has
+4 Str [Orc] +4 Str [Half Minotaur] +8 Str [Size increase] +4 Str [Half Ogre] = +20 Str
To rebalance these templates, remove the size increase modifiers


2) No the Savage Progressions still impose the Animal HD upon your character. You merely get to take the LA in stages.



So a WereTiger 2 Half Ogre Half Minotaur Water Orc Barbarian 1 would be ECL 10 and have +32 Str (or +24 Str if the Half ___ templates were rebalanced)

Edit: Fixed Half Ogre

[Codyage]

1a) Each of the templates is +1LA so it is +2LA total
1b) Each of those templates tries to increase your size if you are Small or Medium size at the time. Unfortunately the authors foolishly allowed the templates to grant the increase in size modifiers to abilities in addition to the racial modifiers to abilities.

So a Water Orc Half Minotaur Half Ogre has
+4 Str [Orc] +4 Str [Half Minotaur] +8 Str [Size increase] +4 Str [Half Ogre] = +20 Str
To rebalance these templates, remove the size increase modifiers


2) No the Savage Progressions still impose the Animal HD upon your character. You merely get to take the LA in stages.

Half Ogre specifically says if the base creatures size didn't change, the level adjustment is same as the base creature.

Half-Minotaur makes you gain a size category, and Half Ogre make you gain a size category if your medium or small.

Water Orc is medium.

Half Minotaur makes you large.

Now apply Half ogre. Since you are all ready large, no extra LA.

[OldTrees1]

Half Ogre specifically says if the base creatures size didn't change, the level adjustment is same as the base creature.


Really? O.O That is silly. Half Ogre is not balanced at LA+0

[Metahuman1]

Hm... By my own definitions, yes you'd need items for mid-op, but no in true low-op. Which I might add doesn't make much sense, because really, if anything that I'd call "low" op is being implemented, being a three halfs of a race even for a melee build based on technically RAW but completely against the spirit of RAI rules... Get ready to dodge flying DMGs, and if you want to avoid that, try eating your food with a bit less cheese.

Well yes, I'd need items. I'd need magic armor and magic weapons. I'd need at some point a Gem of heavy fortification. I'd want belts of healing at lower levels, Save boosting items, stuff like that.

I'm just asking if I can get around Items to boost physical stats.

[OldTrees1]

I'm just asking if I can get around Items to boost physical stats.

Depends on what you want to do:

Health: Skip the Amulet of Con
Damage: Skip the Belt of Str
Combat Manuevers vs giant creatures: Maybe get the Belt of Str (but not as early)
Armor Class: Get 16 Dex for Mithral Fullplate but skip the Gloves of Dex
Attacks of Opportunity: Get Gloves of Dex and Bracers of Opportunity

[Chronos]

You could avoid using strength-boosting items, but why would you? You're already strong; those would make you stronger. Strong is good, stronger is better. It seems fairly simple to me.

[Metahuman1]

Health: Well, I'm looking at a binder dip for Delver-Nar and when I get the money buying a little animated object made of Riverine so that I can cut my damage taken in half.

Damage: Ok, sounds good.

Combat Manuvers: What if I also got an item of Alter Self, like, say, couple of ranks in UMD and a couple of discount eternal wands of it or something, to snag powerful build? Would counting as Size Category Hugh take care of that with the added Str bonus from the class/templates?

AC: Check.

AoO's: En, I MIGHT snag that and robilars Gambit or snag evasive reflexes, but it's more an after though then a design goal.


Edit: Why? Cut the outrageous price tags by level for keeping multiple physical scores relevant. And, I sorta just wanna see if I can build an effective meleer who doesn't Need physical stat boosting items just to work.

[OldTrees1]

You could avoid using strength-boosting items, but why would you? You're already strong; those would make you stronger. Strong is good, stronger is better. It seems fairly simple to me.

Up until your modifier is +enough
Strength will not help if you are hitting on a 2, doing enough damage per hit, outclassing your opponents in combat maneuvers and jump high enough.


Health: Well, I'm looking at a binder dip for Delver-Nar and when I get the money buying a little animated object made of Riverine so that I can cut my damage taken in half.

Damage: Ok, sounds good.

Combat Manuvers: What if I also got an item of Alter Self, like, say, couple of ranks in UMD and a couple of discount eternal wands of it or something, to snag powerful build? Would counting as Size Category Hugh take care of that with the added Str bonus from the class/templates?

AC: Check.

AoO's: En, I MIGHT snag that and robilars Gambit or snag evasive reflexes, but it's more an after though then a design goal.

Combat Maneuvers:
What is the Str Modifier and Size of the largest foes you will be facing?
Ex: An Adult Red Dragon(CR15) is Huge with 33 Str so they have a +19 modifier. A +24 modifier at ECL 12 would be enough of an edge in a PC vs Dragons campaign.