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Tola
2007-01-25, 10:09 AM
I'm looking at the SRD, looking for feat choices. Something seems....off. If I AM wrong, do NOT use pictures to say so: I'm on a slow connection.

It's to do with Two-Weapon Fighting, and Weapon+Shield. The two are somewhat mixed together.

So, you may make a shield bash, doing a little damage, and treating the shield as an Off-Hand Weapon. This means you are Two-weapon Fighting, does it not? And wouldn't that mean you take the penalties for that? Those being -6 for primary, and -10 for the secondary attack? Why make Shield Bash such a poor standard option?

Now, to Two-Weapon Fighting itself.

The initial Two-Weapon Fighting Feat lowers the penalties for dual-wield to -4/-4. Light off-hand weapon reduces this to -2/-2. Which is a LITTLE better than I thought it was-when I first started typing this, I believed it was only -4/-4. But even then, that only applies to Light weapons-a heavy shield has only the -4/-4 to go for.

Improved Two-weapon Fighting adds another Off-Hand attack with a -5 penalty, for a total penalty of -7 if the off-hand is Light, -9 if not.

Greater Two-weapon Fighting adds another off-hand attack at -10 for a total of -12(-14 if not Light) in all.

The penalties seem...I dunno. I guess getting extra attacks needs penalising, but...

Is there a reason that one using a shield to it's full effect seems to have to take the Two-Weapon Fighting tree?

And is there any way to use a Shield Bash to disorient or knock away an opponent, which is at least half of what a shield bash was meant for?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-25, 10:13 AM
You can shield bash (with iterative attacks) with your shield as your primary (or only) weapon.

squishycube
2007-01-25, 10:16 AM
Or in other words, Sword and board + shield bash is probably not a very good choice at all. But shield bashing when your normal weapon is somehow not a (good) option, can of course be done. No TWF rules in this case, just use the shield as a weapon.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-25, 10:23 AM
I have a sudden urge to play a fighter with Imp. Shield Bash and who wields a defending dagger, using the shield as his weapon and the dagger as his shield.

The J Pizzel
2007-01-25, 10:27 AM
Nice Fax. I'm gonna make that tonight just to see how fun it it.

Darrin
2007-01-25, 10:40 AM
So, you may make a shield bash, doing a little damage, and treating the shield as an Off-Hand Weapon. This means you are Two-weapon Fighting, does it not? And wouldn't that mean you take the penalties for that? Those being -6 for primary, and -10 for the secondary attack? Why make Shield Bash such a poor standard option?


Yes, a shield bash is usually an off-hand attack. All Improved Shield Bash does is allow you to use the shield's AC bonus if you attack with it. To shield bash effectively, you'd most likely want to pick up TWF to reduce your penalties to -2 for each hand.

You occasionally run into situations where you want to shield bash as a primary attack. For example, if you need a bludgeoning attack to get past a zombie's damage reduction, or you don't have a primary weapon readied (via disarm or surprise) and you still want to attack or use an AoO.

The crux of the matter is this: shields (and shield-related feats) absolutely suck so hard in 3.x, you're better off with any other fighting style, including TWF.

Yes, you can put spikes on the shield and probably stack up some pretty decent AC bonuses with Improved Shield Bash + TWF + Two Weapon Defense + Imp. Two Weapon Defense, but it requires a stupefyingly large number of feats before it's even remotely effective.

Tola
2007-01-25, 10:49 AM
...Sword+Shield fighting is just effectively a Two-Weapon Fighting varient, then?

....The hell?

Seriously. Improved Shield Bash is the only feat that relates directly to Shields in the SRD, which is pure Core material. The thoughts on Two-Weapon Fighting are part my own, part a half-remembered discussion around here.

Bah. Who'd have thought it'd be so hard to choose feats that make you more effective? I don't know what to DO with myself...

Thomas
2007-01-25, 10:53 AM
Sword & shield is two-weapon fighting if you use Improved Shield Bash, yes. Many games treat it like that (WFRP, RuneQuest).

And it is just that, essentially. You're using two weapons - the other one just happens to be pretty poor for hitting people and pretty good for blocking and parrying.

Orzel
2007-01-25, 10:59 AM
I have a sudden urge to play a fighter with Imp. Shield Bash and who wields a defending dagger, using the shield as his weapon and the dagger as his shield.

Been there, done that.

Too bad TWD gives a shield bonus.

Tola
2007-01-25, 11:10 AM
Another thought occurs. Exactly why does Two-Weapon Fighting take so many feats anyway?

Assume someone wants to create a decent Two-Weapon fighter.

Obviously, he wants to reduce his penalties as much as is possible.

Two Weapon Fighting.
If he's got enough Dexterity to be Two-Weapon Fighting(15+), he'll want Weapon Finesse.
To reduce penalties to their absolute minimum(assuming not a Fighter), you take Weapon Focus in a Light weapon type, and use two of the same weapon, forcing the penalties to -1/-1.
You also want Two-Weapon Defence. And possibly the Improved version, whatever that's like.

4-5 feats. Don't you only get about 8-9?

Thomas
2007-01-25, 11:28 AM
7, +1 if you're human.

That's why you're either a Rogue who doesn't need anything else, or a fighter, who gets 18+1 feats.

Nobody should take Weapon Focus. It sucks. +5% to hit isn't worth it, especially when you're likely starting out using two different weapons (one-handed and light). So you're at 3-4 feats (Weapon Finesse isn't necessary), just using core.

Two-Weapon Defense isn't necessary at all (and if you can only get TWD, it's not worth taking); it's a different tree and build (one that goes great with Duelist, for +16 to AC when fighting defensively).

adanedhel9
2007-01-25, 11:41 AM
Running off just core... sword and board with shield bash isn't really that great. Outside of core you have a few more options... the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat from CW and the Agile Shield Fighter from PHBII come to mind.


Another thought occurs. Exactly why does Two-Weapon Fighting take so many feats anyway?

Assume someone wants to create a decent Two-Weapon fighter.

Obviously, he wants to reduce his penalties as much as is possible.

...

4-5 feats. Don't you only get about 8-9?

Fighters get a lot more... a 20th level fighter has 18 feats (19 if human). Plenty of room to develop two-weapon skills. (Not that you'd ever want to make a 20th level fighter who uses two weapons, but that's a topic for another thread.)

Rangers can get some of these feats for free, so it's not quite so bad for them. Samurai (from CW) also get some for free. (Not that you'd ever want to make a CW samurai... ever... really, don't even consider it.)

High-level rogues can choose to take up to four bonus feats through their Special Abilities class ability, though depending on the build, the other Special Abilties are rather nice, too.

But for most other classes, if you want to two-weapon fight, there's little advantage in spending that many feats on it. Two-Weapon Fighting, and maybe Two-Weapon Defense, and the rest of your feats should probably go elsewhere.

Orzel
2007-01-25, 11:44 AM
TWF is mostly for rogues who aren't taking other feats, fighters, rangers, special PrCs, and special character concepts.

Also.... haha Weapon Focus.

It's better to pay for an animated shield that take TWD. Two bad they don't stack.

Tola
2007-01-25, 11:54 AM
Meh.

Weapon Focus is all there is to show better than average melee skill. If there were a better feat to show that, I'd take it, but there ISN'T. Just like there isn't really anything for a Sword and Shield user to really improve his abilities, unless he goes Two-Weapon-which I don't like the thought of.

Then again, I don't feel like going Power Attack either, but there's no way to really improve defensive fighting. Dammit, if I'm going to be a tank, I want to be a GOOD tank.

chiefwaha
2007-01-25, 12:05 PM
A bashing spiked shield as your primary can do as much damage as a greatsword. It's actually a very amusing build, TWF sword and boarder with just core material. High dex, the three two weapon fighting feats, and improved shield bash, with some sort of mithril armor.

Matthew
2007-01-25, 02:11 PM
Tola:
What exactly is the problem with Weapon and Shield being treated as Two Weapon Fighting? Two Weapon Fighting sucks, but the problem is the Two Weapon Fighting Mechanics, rather than Weapon and Shield being identified with it.

There are a number of Shield only Feats that were introduced in the PHB2, such as Agile Shield Fighter and Shield Specialisation. Block Arrow is also a handy Feat for Weapon and Shield.

Draz74
2007-01-25, 02:48 PM
As was briefly mentioned, the best shield fighter (in Core) is actually a Ranger. Take Improved Shield Bash as a regular feat and get the TWF tree without having to have a really high Dex. Don't bother with Weapon Finesse, focus more on Strength than Dexterity. (A mediocre Dexterity score with light armor will make your AC low, except that having a magic shield will make up for it.)

If I were doing this build, I'd probably just make a ranger who likes to use a shield. But if you wanted a sword-and-board fighter, you can really just wear a mithral breastplate and not use your more forest-friendly abilities, and pretend you're a fighter. (Don't use Wild Empathy or spellcasting (maybe even cap your Wisdom at 10 so you can't cast spells) ... don't buy Hide/Move Silently/Heal/Survival ranks ... buy a high Constitution in exchange for a lower Intelligence. You can still use some Ranger features besides combat style. Endurance is fine. Favored Enemies is actually pretty cool for a non-"Ranger" warrior. Animal Companion is probably fine as long as it's a horse or a dog.)

JellyPooga
2007-01-25, 10:44 PM
Off-Core, there's a couple of shield feats in Complete Warrior that allow you to stun an opponent on a charge with a shield or make a free trip attack. They're not optimal, but I like them 'cos they make sword and board a bit more interesting. If you don't have Comp. War. though, this isn't particularly useful.

Talanic
2007-01-25, 11:54 PM
Heh, can't help it, but the sword-and-board ranger made me think of a ranger TWFing a pair of bucklers.

Of course, since the shield bonuses wouldn't stack with each other, it'd be completely worthless to try, even more than normal shield use.

Matthew
2007-01-26, 08:01 AM
Even more worthless would be the fact you can't attack with a D&D Buckler...