Ways to buy XP for crafting and spells with gold.

[Clistenes]

If your DM allows it, you can have all the basic crafting feats taking the Inheritor template (+1 LA). But, since those are "floating feats" (you choose one among them each day) you can't take the cheesy cost reduction feats.

For a wizard gold eventually doesn't matter, for so long as you have access to a market big enoug. But xp is harder to get.

Ambrosia is incredibly expensive (100 gp per 1 xp). You can sell souls at a price of 10 xp per unit, but that's hardcore evil.

You could craft an item that produces permanent a Ray of Hope, Elation and Distill Joy effect for 44000 gp, getting 2 XP per use. Of course your DM might tell you that you need extraordinary joy or pleasure for the spell to work, so your shiny brand new item is useless, unless it's a bed and you hire a courtesan with +20 to Perform (Sexytimes)...and she will get only 2 xp per client, which isn't really worth the effort.

You could use a set of Pipes of Power and buy XP at a price of 5 gp/1xp, but the average peasant/commoner/bystander probably won't produce much xp, so you may have to buy xp from like 1000 or 2000 people in order to craft your 200.000 gp Staff of Screw You.

Another option would be to make non-lethal gladiatorial games and give huge prices for the winner in exchange for the right to suck the xp they gained from their victory with your Pipes of Power. That will give you about 300 xp per fight. The drawback is that you will have to create a whole organization for this to work.

Another option would be to seek an Artificer and use him to get the XP from the magic items you find and don't wish to keep, or even create a Simulacrum of that Artificer that works for free. Problem is, your DM may not use Artificers in his campaign world.

And them, if you are willing to take the Cheesy route, you could Wish for magic items that grant you all of the juicy discount feats, but your DM will probably beat you to unconsciousness with a book.

And last but not least, you can make some research. There may some places in the planes were people sell XP in the free market.

So...which do you think would be the least cheesy an most practical way to get that delicious crafting XP?

[Raendyn]

And them, if you are willing to take the Cheesy route, you could Wish for magic items that grant you all of the juicy discount feats, but your DM will probably beat you to unconsciousness with a book.


Most of what you said will have the same outcome...


So...which do you think would be the least cheesy an most practical way to get that delicious crafting XP?

Ask your DM to give you a solo encounter. (won't happen, its like rolling dices to get xp alone. Maybe if you are indeed in grave danger...)

Ask your Dm to change the crafting xp cost into gold(will need some polishing with the gold/xp reductions)

Best solution: Do a fight or two while being a lvl behind, because you crafted something, when you lvl up to the other get that evil smile on your face and be happy.

[asnys]

Thought Bottle? Then, no matter what you craft or how much you craft, it costs you exactly 500 XP.

[Slipperychicken]

You want Ambrosia?

1. Get a subject and make it equip a Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain (8,000gp, BoVD). This will convert its pain into pleasure.

2. Cast Eternity of Torture (Pain 9, BoVD) on the subject. This removes his need for sustenance, he doesn't age, etc. He is now in pain indefinitely. Also, he's helpless and can't move, which is very useful. You don't want him running away with your nipple clamp.

The subject's body is twisted and warped, wracked forever with excruciating pain.

2a. This inflicts terrible pain, which is converted to pleasure by the nipple clamp. This should count as "extraordinary pleasure" for the purposes of ambrosia harvesting.

3. Now hook the subject up to your Ambrosia collector (a custom magic item which casts Distilled Joy), or just cast the spell yourself. (EDIT: Looking at the distilled joy spell, there's no reason you couldn't have it cast multiple times, by different casters or items, upon the same subject. So the sky's the limit in terms of daily production).

4. Congratulations on your new ambrosia factory.

Resources used
1 Subject (cost varies. If bought as a slave, roughly 100gp assuming a CR 1 creature.)
1 Successful casting of Eternity of Torture (free if you cast it yourself, 1530gp if you find an NPC to do it)
1 Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain (8000gp)

Result:
At least 1 unit of ambrosia produced each day, for ever.

[Kelb_Panthera]

RAW, ambrosia's your best bet. 100gp per xp sucks but unless you're willing to build an organization around producing ambrosia for yourself that's just what it costs. The receptacles for souls tend to run about 1000gp per HD so you're not saving any money there.

You could do a little better as an artificer, 50gp per xp at level 5 and 25gp per xp at 11(ish) by retain essence.

I'm not familiar with the pipes of power but the 5gp per 1xp going rate is as good as it gets however, as you noticed, actually getting it is kinda tricky with having to find people willing to sell you their essence.

[Clistenes]

Most of what you said will have the same outcome...

Ask your DM to give you a solo encounter. (won't happen, its like rolling dices to get xp alone. Maybe if you are indeed in grave danger...)

Ask your Dm to change the crafting xp cost into gold(will need some polishing with the gold/xp reductions)

Best solution: Do a fight or two while being a lvl behind, because you crafted something, when you lvl up to the other get that evil smile on your face and be happy.

Yes, but, what if you want to create something like a flying teleporting dimension-hopping intelligent foldable construct ship? Or a flying turtle-shaped fortress-city? Or an army of golems? Or a castle with all its walls reinforced with Wall of Force and Prismatic Wall? Something crazy that would require of more than half of all your xp.


Thought Bottle? Then, no matter what you craft or how much you craft, it costs you exactly 500 XP.

I know the trick, but that's up there with "using a Wish spell to get a magic item that grants all the cheesy discount feats" in term of cheesiness. Barely any DM would allow that.


Snip

A bit evil, strapping and torturing somebody, even if they are forced to enjoy it, but, if you go for big cheese, it's a good option.


RAW, ambrosia's your best bet. 100gp per xp sucks but unless you're willing to build an organization around producing ambrosia for yourself that's just what it costs. The receptacles for souls tend to run about 1000gp per HD so you're not saving any money there.

You could do a little better as an artificer, 50gp per xp at level 5 and 25gp per xp at 11(ish) by retain essence.

I'm not familiar with the pipes of power but the 5gp per 1xp going rate is as good as it gets however, as you noticed, actually getting it is kinda tricky with having to find people willing to sell you their essence.

Yes, ambrosia is a good choice if you are willing to spend four times as much as the price of the item just to get the XP. The problem is I'm not even sure so much ambrosia can be found in the market; it's an expensive luxury.

The Pipes of Power are a good option if you can find people willing to sell their xp to you. I dunno, I could maybe offer the king to provide masterwork weaponry for all his army in exchange for every soldier providing some XP. Or I could organize a tourney and offer 2,000 gp as prize for every victor that allows me to suck the xp gained from the encounter.

I may have to re-read the rules, but from 5th level onwards the Artificer recovers ALL the xp from any items he/she uses Retain Essence on. On the other hand, as he/she takes more level as Artificer, he can make more items from the same amount of essence.
The problem with Artificers if finding one that is 5th level or more and is willing to work with you (or finding one that is above 10 th level who you can take a bit of hair from in order to create a 5th level Simulacrum).

[skyth]

Fabricate Liquid Pain. (Liquid Pain is an alchemical item with a crafting DC. You should be able to fabricate it)

[Cruiser1]

Result: At least 1 unit of ambrosia produced each day, for ever.
If you're high level, cast Miracle to duplicate Distilled Joy. Why cast a 9th level spell instead of a 3rd level spell? Miracle is cast in 1 round, instead of 1 day. Now you can cast Distilled Joy as many times in a row as you have 9th level spell slots. Combine with any of the infinite spell tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14567871&postcount=26) and you can easily get infinite ambrosia. :smallcool:

[Jack_Simth]

You could do a little better as an artificer, 50gp per xp at level 5 and 25gp per xp at 11(ish) by retain essence. When you're doing the exchange, you don't get 'normal' craft items. You get scrolls of things that have a high XP component, as you get to harvest that as part of the crafting cost. Beget Bogun (Masters of the Wild) is your best bet, as it's a 1st level spell with a 25 xp material component. The XP cost is 125, the market price for a caster level 1 scroll of a 1st level spell is 25, so the total cost is 150... and it holds 26 xp for the artificer.

[Cirrylius]

This inflicts terrible pain, which is converted to pleasure by the nipple clamp. This should count as "extraordinary pleasure" for the purposes of ambrosia harvesting.

Is it just me, or would ambrosia harvested from inverted agony probably taste... weird?

[Clistenes]

Fabricate Liquid Pain. (Liquid Pain is an alchemical item with a crafting DC. You should be able to fabricate it)

I have checked the Book of Vile Darkness, and Liquid Pain doesn't have a crafting DC.

I wonder if you could bribe a Genie to give you XP with their Wish spell-like ability. They can't use it by themselves, and they can't create more that 25,000 gp with it, so a gift of 25,000 gp in exchange for 1,000 - 5,000 xp should be about right.

Of course, you could pay the genie to enhance the item by itself, but most DMs I know houserule that genies can't create any magical item with a price above 25,000 gp unless you pay double the XP.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is it just me, or would ambrosia harvested from inverted agony probably taste... weird?

I would imagine it might have a slightly spicy quality to it. Somehow, I'm okay with that.

[Jack_Simth]

I have checked the Book of Vile Darkness, and Liquid Pain doesn't have a crafting DC.Then you're looking in the wrong spot. Liquid Pain is also called Agony (see page 33 or 42), and you find the craft DC on the table on page 43.

So yes, you can Fabricate Liquid Pain. Per the Crafting rules, the materials for a dose of Liquid Pain (if you're NOT using the pain extractor or the Liquid Pain spell) Cost 200 gp / 3 = 66.66666... gp. Each does is worth 3 xp, so you can buy the XP at 22.222... gp/xp if you Craft it yourself (either via Craft or Fabricate). Still not generally worthwhile, admittedly, until you find an 'out' for material components, and note that with the Fabricate spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm), the crafting materials are listed as part of the Material Component line.

[Raendyn]

Yes, but, what if you want to create something like a flying teleporting dimension-hopping intelligent foldable construct ship? Or a flying turtle-shaped fortress-city? Or an army of golems? Or a castle with all its walls reinforced with Wall of Force and Prismatic Wall? Something crazy that would require of more than half of all your xp.

hmm, now I get the scale... In such cases DM shouldn't make you take the feats and build it yourself. You should have a (grand) Quest for your flying teleporting dimension-hopping intelligent foldable construct ship.

For example some political games that force a nation/region help you or a magi circle to help you, or saving a grand technicians life/family or any other way to make him want to craft it for you.

If the xp is actually equal to a bunch of high lvls put together, then you should invent/discover after a quest most probably, a ceremony that allows many different wizards to contribute to a magic item crafting. This is a standard procedure in Forgotten Realms.

In case your DM isnt very helpful with all these rule-bending, then you will have to make a detailed plan about how to create the grand artifact by combining many smaller items. It can be done and you can pay/force/convince people to craft them for you.

[Slipperychicken]

If you're high level, cast Miracle to duplicate Distilled Joy. Why cast a 9th level spell instead of a 3rd level spell? Miracle is cast in 1 round, instead of 1 day. Now you can cast Distilled Joy as many times in a row as you have 9th level spell slots. Combine with any of the infinite spell tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14567871&postcount=26) and you can easily get infinite ambrosia. :smallcool:

You can cast Distilled Joy multiple times on the same target, producing each day as many units as you can manage spellcasters or items. This also means that your entire operation might be powered by a single man's eternal masochistic ecstasy.

Also, wish loops are hideously cheesy and won't fly in most games.


Is it just me, or would ambrosia harvested from inverted agony probably taste... weird?

Cast prestidigitation and make it taste like apple juice or something. Or just mix it into some chocolate milk, or whatever your beverage of choice is.

[Clistenes]

Then you're looking in the wrong spot. Liquid Pain is also called Agony (see page 33 or 42), and you find the craft DC on the table on page 43.

So yes, you can Fabricate Liquid Pain. Per the Crafting rules, the materials for a dose of Liquid Pain (if you're NOT using the pain extractor or the Liquid Pain spell) Cost 200 gp / 3 = 66.66666... gp. Each does is worth 3 xp, so you can buy the XP at 22.222... gp/xp if you Craft it yourself (either via Craft or Fabricate). Still not generally worthwhile, admittedly, until you find an 'out' for material components, and note that with the Fabricate spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm), the crafting materials are listed as part of the Material Component line.

You are right, but I think the raw material for crafting Agony would be people in pain. I'm not sure Fabricate could extract Liquid Pain from them.

[Jack_Simth]

You are right, but I think the raw material for crafting Agony would be people in pain. I'm not sure Fabricate could extract Liquid Pain from them.
It might be a bit odd (but then, a lot of things in D&D are), but the Craft Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) are pretty straightforward. You pay 1/3 the costs, spend time, make the check, and you're done. Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) removes most of the time component. Ironically, it never actually states that a pain extractor or the liquid pain spell must be used. Even if so, as someone 'wracked with disease' qualifies, well, you can just visit a city stricken by plague, can't you?

[Ansem]

Book of Vile Darkness -> Hire Henchman, sacrifice them to pay for XP and GP costs in item creation.

[asnys]

Dragon #317 has an article on power components, using bits of monsters in place of XP. Each spell or magic item has a different requirement, and only a relatively few items are listed, but it's a precedent. The cost works out to 5 gp/1 XP. Of course, a) it's Dragon, b) it's an explicitly optional rule, and c) I'm not sure if it's 3.0 or 3.5.

[Azoth]

Be a divine caster or use one of the multiple ways to prep arcane spells as divine spells then go Rune Caster for 8 levels. This lets you create permanent runes of any divine spell you can prep. Create permanent runes of Elation and Distil Joy. Your runes change their casting times to standard actions (the action required to deliberately activate a rune). So now you can walk around every other round creating a dose of ambrosia to use for crafting. Best part is that it only takes you 20 minutes to make both runes instead of multiple days.

[Naanomi]

Book of Vile Darkness -> Hire Henchman, sacrifice them to pay for XP and GP costs in item creation.
Hire/Cohort one Thrallherd...

[Gemini476]

You can cast Distilled Joy multiple times on the same target, producing each day as many units as you can manage spellcasters or items. This also means that your entire operation might be powered by a single man's eternal masochistic ecstasy.

As an aside, why grab slaves? I'm sure that there are some people out there that would volunteer for immortality in eternal pleasure. Seriously, they "[are] completely unaware of [their] surroundings, insensate to anything but the excruciating [pleasure]". I know that some people would see that as a viable alternative to suicide, or even death in general - if you knew that you were going to the Abyss, would you consider living in eternal pleasure?

It's not even truly permanent, since it's Permanent; one good Dispel Magic is good enough to get someone out of it if you want to run it as some kind of strange brothel/opium den-esque establishment. I'm sure that some rich aristocrats would be perfectly willing to pay for a weekend of nothing but pleasure, but it might end up being addictive.

...Come to think of it, this is probably the easiest way for a non-immortal race to live forever. Huh.

[Slipperychicken]

As an aside, why grab slaves?

I had considered the possibility of a willing subject, but with the perspective you raised, it should be much more likely to get one. I only mentioned the slave price because I assumed an uncooperative GM.

For addiction, you could always just cast Remove Addiction (Cleric 2, Druid 2).

And now I'm stuck with the mental image of some strung-out noble wearing a nipple clamp begging a wizard to cast Eternity of Torture on him and harvest his pleasure.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And now I'm stuck with the mental image of some strung-out noble wearing a nipple clamp begging a wizard to cast Eternity of Torture on him and harvest his pleasure.

Sometimes this game generates some -really- strange imagery, eh?

[Clistenes]

What about what I asked about Genies? Would giving a gift worth 25,000 gp to a Genie and ask it to use a Wish to give you 1,000 XP be kosher, from your point of view?

[Kelb_Panthera]

What about what I asked about Genies? Would giving a gift worth 25,000 gp to a Genie and ask it to use a Wish to give you 1,000 XP be kosher, from your point of view?

Well, the wish spell can make up to 25k worth of non-magical material. Ambrosia is non-magical material worth 200gp a dose. A wish can produce 125 doses which covers 250xp, so I'd say no. That wouldn't work since the wish spell can't just give you XP. Incidentally, that still comes out to 100gp per XP.

That's my view on the idea mechanically anyway.

As a DM I've already included a homebrew item to allow the standard 5:1 exchange rate so, obviously, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

[Rubik]

Combine this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246396) with the artificer's Retain Essence ability.

[Clistenes]

Well, the wish spell can make up to 25k worth of non-magical material. Ambrosia is non-magical material worth 200gp a dose. A wish can produce 125 doses which covers 250xp, so I'd say no. That wouldn't work since the wish spell can't just give you XP. Incidentally, that still comes out to 100gp per XP.

That's my view on the idea mechanically anyway.

As a DM I've already included a homebrew item to allow the standard 5:1 exchange rate so, obviously, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

Yeah, but Ambrosia is excesively expensive. If you buy Ambrosia to get xp, you pay four times the price of the magic item you will craft.

When you purchase a magic item that contains an XP component to power spells, like Wish, True Resurrection, Permanency or Awake, you pay 5 gp per 1 xp.

And when you you buy a magic item, half of its value comes from material components and the other half from the XP spent, at a rate of 12,5 gp per 1 XP invested.

I think that paying 25 gp for 1 xp is quite all right. And the genie isn't spending anything, he doesn't spend xp and he can't use his Wish spell-like ability to make something for himself.

As a matter of fact, getting 2000 xp in exchange for 25000 gp in cash would be even better. you would spend the exact amount in xp and material components that you would spend buying the magic item at a magic mart, and you avoid the stupidity of the magic mart.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ultimately, if you're buying XP you're paying more than market price for your items. Even the standard 5:1 is twice and a half times the 12.5:1 that normal crafting uses.

Ultimately you're not making a profit unless you're generating your own XP from an ambrosia or agony farm.

Since money is no object, what does it matter how much you're overpaying?

[skyth]

Dragon #317 has an article on power components, using bits of monsters in place of XP. Each spell or magic item has a different requirement, and only a relatively few items are listed, but it's a precedent. The cost works out to 5 gp/1 XP. Of course, a) it's Dragon, b) it's an explicitly optional rule, and c) I'm not sure if it's 3.0 or 3.5.

I know power components are in the core rules. Not sure which edition (3.0/3.5). I know I used them in a 3.0 game :)

However, no rules, just that they might exist and ask your DM :)

[Clistenes]

Ultimately, if you're buying XP you're paying more than market price for your items. Even the standard 5:1 is twice and a half times the 12.5:1 that normal crafting uses.

Ultimately you're not making a profit unless you're generating your own XP from an ambrosia or agony farm.

Since money is no object, what does it matter how much you're overpaying?

Well, a wizard can use Wall of Iron, Wall of Salt, Magecraft and Fabricate to produce an infinite amount of valuable wares:

-A wizard can use the metal from a Wall of Iron to forge weapons, armor and tools with the help of Magecraft and Fabricate.
-Can use Fabricate and Magecraft to turn clay into ceramics.
-Can buy cotton and wool and linen and silk and weave it with Magecraft and Fabricate and sell the clothes.
-Can teleport to a place were wood is free and create furniture and musical instruments.
-Can go to a beach and create glass out of the sand.
-Can create a Simulacrum of a Deepspawn or enslave a real one and produce thousand of sheep that he can use to produce wool and use Fabricate and Magecraft to produce clothes.
-Can teleport to the other side of the world and buy rare spices and silks.
-Can Planeshift to the Paraelementalplane of Minerals and summon some Earth Elementals, ordering them to seek valuable gems.
...etc.

And the wizard can Planeshift/Teleport itself in search of markets. And can transport tons of wares into Portable Holes, Enveloping Pits and the like.

But, as the wizard saturates market after market across the planes, getting money can become more and more time-consuming (plus you make things difficult for the other money-seeking wizards out there, who will be pissed), so it would be nice to be able to craft items for a price that is less than 450 % of its market price (which is what you are paying if you use Ambrosia).

[Cirrylius]

Cast prestidigitation and make it taste like apple juice or something. Or just mix it into some chocolate milk, or whatever your beverage of choice is.

I just mean as compared to... regular... liquid joy.

I keep picturing some suspicious celestial that suspects it's Agony taking a swig and making the pee-beer expression from Dumb and Dumber.