Elan disappoints me...

[Kruploy]

Backstabbing his father like that when all he wants is what's best for him...

Tarquin is a raving lunatic but he still loves Elan dearly. He is a high functioning madman, plain and simple.

He needs professional help, not the kind of "help" Ian and Zola will provide for him if they get their hands on him.

By this little act, Elan may have indirectly committed irreversible patricide.

[Gift Jeraff]

Backstabbing his father like that when all he wants is what's best for him...

Indeed, he does want what's best for himself.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Backstabbing his father like that when all he wants is what's best for him...

Tarquin is a raving lunatic but he still loves Elan dearly. He is a high functioning madman, plain and simple.

He needs professional help, not the kind of "help" Ian and Zola will provide for him if they get their hands on him.

By this little act, Elan may have indirectly committed irreversible patricide.
If Tarquin is going to get help, I don't think Elan would be the one to give it to him. Also, Ian and Amun-Zora would still be attacking Tarquin, regardless of what Elan did to him. Perhaps patricide was Elan's long term goal.

[Dumbestupidiot]

We are talking about a man who murdered your twin brother in front of you, thrust his sword straight through you, tried to kill your friends for not doing things the way he wants them done, and broke your girlfriend's arm. That is all the personal things he did, not to mention ruling a country through fear and bloodshed for his own personal pleasure.

When a madman holds a gun to people's heads, even if it is your own father, sometimes you just have to take them down hard and fast to save other people's lives.

[Alignment]

Why do some people think Tarquin is insane? His egocentrism doesn't make him any less responsible for his many evil acts. Tarquin may think he wants what's best for Elan, but in the end he just wants what's best for Tarquin.

[Vinyadan]

Do you know why he devised that plan? BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THESE THINGS ARE DONE!

More seriously, we don't know how his plane works. It could all be about destroying Tarquin's image and having him slowly loose power. And I doubt a good character would devise a plan to kill his father - even though, being the father a blood-thirsty tyrant, I am not even sure he wouldn't. After all, Tarquin is the cause of death and suffering for the people he rules.

[Dumbestupidiot]

Why do some people think Tarquin is insane? His egocentrism doesn't make him any less responsible for his many evil acts. Tarquin may think he wants what's best for Elan, but in the end he just wants what's best for Tarquin.

If his narrative view of the universe were not actually based in fact in this universe, he would be completely bonkers.

[theNater]

Backstabbing his father like that...
I'm not sure you understand how backstabbing works. When person A says to person B "I can't let you hurt all these people for ten years" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) and then makes an attempt to stop person B from hurting all those people, it's not backstabbing. If anything, it's frontstabbing.

[DaggerPen]

Tarquin is not insane. His view of the world as being run by narrative conventions is completely accurate - he's mistaken in the belief that some conventions are out of bounds, but he's mistaken, not delusional. And, like Elan, he could easily choose not to be awful for the sake of narrative - he chose the role that he thought would get him what HE wanted according to his understanding of how narrative works. He could have, like Elan, chosen to be a hero, but he'd rather live like a god for 50 years and then die in a climactic battle that will make his name live on forever than struggle and suffer like a hero with the promise if being rewarded in the end.

Tarquin is not insane. His belief that the OOTSverse is governed by narrative is accurate; his belief that the narrative is something else is a mistake; and his choice to fulfill the villain role within a narrative framework is purely self-serving. He has full capacity to make his own decisions, and he has.

[ThePhantasm]

Backstabbing his father like that when all he wants is what's best for him...

Tarquin is a raving lunatic but he still loves Elan dearly. He is a high functioning madman, plain and simple.

He needs professional help, not the kind of "help" Ian and Zola will provide for him if they get their hands on him.

By this little act, Elan may have indirectly committed irreversible patricide.

Given all that Tarquin has done, burning slaves alive, sentencing innocents to death, ordering murders and assassinations, betraying countries, and raping women...

count me on team "WAY TO GO, ELAN!"

[Jay R]

Backstabbing his father like that when all he wants is what's best for him...

Tarquin is a raving lunatic but he still loves Elan dearly. He is a high functioning madman, plain and simple.

He needs professional help, not the kind of "help" Ian and Zola will provide for him if they get their hands on him.

By this little act, Elan may have indirectly committed irreversible patricide.

What the heck is it going to take for you to see that Elan's dad is bad news? do you need, like, 200-foot-tall flaming letters or something? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html)

[NerdyKris]

Backstabbing his father like that when all he wants is what's best for him...

Tarquin is a raving lunatic but he still loves Elan dearly. He is a high functioning madman, plain and simple.

He needs professional help, not the kind of "help" Ian and Zola will provide for him if they get their hands on him.

By this little act, Elan may have indirectly committed irreversible patricide.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic.

Tarquin is not insane. He is completely in control of his actions and understands their consequences. He does not "love" Elan. He only loves him as far as he can contribute to Tarquin's narrative. He is evil. Elan isn't evil for wanting him taken down. He has no duty to play nice with a person who just murdered his brother and threatened to kill his friends and cut off his hand, and that's not even counting the innocents under his despotic rule.

[Kruploy]

Tarquin is insane not because he believes that his world is run by narrative conventions but because he genuinely believes that he is the villain that the entire universe revolves around.

This is a man who killed his son just because "he was a B-list villain cluttering up the obvious narrative between Elan and [Tarquin]" and who intended to ruin his second son's life because he thought Elan was acting inappropriately. How can he not be insane?

Also, from the brief time that he spent together with Elan I got the impression that Tarquin genuinely loved him. Tarquin wants Elan to dethrone him. If he didn't love him, why would he take the time to bond with him when he could have just say slaughtered V and Haley and had him tortured for some time before tossing him out to plan his inevitable revenge?

[Kish]

They don't make asylums capable of holding Tarquins or Jokers.

Tarquin "loves" Elan the way he loved Nale: As an extension of his ego. The more Elan pushes on his facade that that's anything a sane person would recognize as love, the more it cracks. And no one is obligated to go along with being raped, enslaved, or murdered because the alternative involves killing a madman who is somebody's father (and was the father of two somebodies, before he killed one of them).

[theNater]

Tarquin is insane not because he believes that his world is run by narrative conventions but because he genuinely believes that he is the villain that the entire universe revolves around.
So, you recognize that he is a villain and that he knows he is a villain, but you're disappointed in Elan for treating him like a villain? How does that make sense?

[Math_Mage]

{{scrubbed}}

[Happy Gravity]

{{scrubbed}}

[blunk]

You think you're qualified to say what people from another culture should do about one of their own, when all you know about that culture are stories?

[Loreweaver15]

All in favor of adopting 'frontstabbing' as the official term for what happened here, say 'Aye'.

[Snaaake]

Backstabbing his father like that when all he wants is what's best for him...

Tarquin wants what *Tarquin* thinks is best/the appropriate thing to do. Not the same as what's objectively the best for Elan, or what Elan wants.


By this little act, Elan may have indirectly committed irreversible patricide.

Yes, which he was planning on doing anyway, eventually. And besides, patricide (later) is exactly what Tarquin wanted him to eventually complete as well.

[Amphiox]

Maybe that last step in that plan is "send my defeated father, whom we have spared in the last step, to therapy".

It is a stretch to declare something a "backstab" when one has no details concerning either backs or sharp objects associated with it. And besides, since Elan has been more than upfront about his desire to see Tarquin beaten, in front of Tarquin, at best this would be a front-stab, not a back-stab.

[SaintRidley]

Backstabbing his father like that when all he wants is what's best for himself.


Fixed that for you.


Tarquin is a raving lunatic but he still loves Elan dearly. He is a high functioning madman, plain and simple.


Tarquin loves the idea of Elan dearly. He loves the idea of Nale dearly. As we saw with the real Nale, however, the real thing and the idea do not match up. Because Tarquin is only capable of loving that which is utterly subservient to his sense of order.



He needs professional help, not the kind of "help" Ian and Zola will provide for him if they get their hands on him.


I don't think there's any kind of help that can actually be given to a tyrannical dictator that would do anything to change their outlook.




By this little act, Elan may have indirectly committed irreversible patricide.

Let's hope Ian and Amun-Zora tell Tarquin that the extent of Elan's involvement was giving them a note with some info about him before they kill him. That way in his dying moments he still fails to get what he wants. Elan continues to be a supporting character in defiance of his father's sense of story, the "low-class" Starshine pulls one over on the charismatic shadowy dictator. It's perfect, because it doesn't just kill Tarquin but everything he holds dear - which is himself and his story and nothing else.

So. Good.

[AgentofHellfire]

I don't think there's any kind of help that can actually be given to a tyrannical dictator that would do anything to change their outlook.


Well, Programmed Amnesia could...but you'd basically be brainwashing him at that point.

[SaintRidley]

Well, Programmed Amnesia could...but you'd basically be brainwashing him at that point.

As much as I hate seeing spells with alignment descriptors, because most of the time they're nonsensical, this is a case where [Evil] is fully justified and it's absurd that it's not part of the spell. It's Mindrape with the serial numbers filed off and a longer casting time, after all.

[Burner28]

This is.. a pretty interesting thread.:smallconfused:

[Bulldog Psion]

We don't even know if Elan's plan involves Tarquin's death yet, so it seems extraordinarily premature to be calling patricide in any case.

[The Pilgrim]

Tarquin really needs professional help...

... from Sabine.

[The Grim Author]

More seriously, we don't know how his plane works. It could all be about destroying Tarquin's image and having him slowly loose power.

I think this is exactly the plan Elan has in mind. Not killing his father, but ousting him, removing the man from power so that when he dies, it won't be as the secret ruler of 1/3 of a continent, but as a broken old man, bereft of power, whose so-called "allies" have abandoned him.

[NerdyKris]

I think this is exactly the plan Elan has in mind. Not killing his father, but ousting him, removing the man from power so that when he dies, it won't be as the secret ruler of 1/3 of a continent, but as a broken old man, bereft of power, whose so-called "allies" have abandoned him.

Except it really doesn't matter, does it? Who cares whether he's a legend or not, as long as the suffering is stopped? To go out of his way to erase him from history would be exactly the thing his revelation two strips ago was against. He needs to focus on what needs to be done, not what makes a good story.

If anything, revealing the scheme and making him a legend means the scheme won't work anymore.

[Mike Havran]

We don't even know if Elan's plan involves Tarquin's death yet, so it seems extraordinarily premature to be calling patricide in any case.Indeed. It would be strange for Elan to make a plan that involves Tarquin's death. On the other hand, it would be strange for Ian to approve a plan that doesn't involve Tarquin's death.

[King of Nowhere]

So, if tarquin was any random villain, it would be perfectly ok for elan to kill him, but since he's elan't father, elan should protect him?
I have a word for that.
Nepotism.

Seriously, I never understood why some people call "moral" to give favoritism to your relatives in life-or-death decisions. As if, to value the lives of your relatives more than those of other people, only because they are relatives. If I discovered my father was a serial killer, I'd bring him to the police myself.

EDIT: another example would be if I were on a sinking boat and i could rescue somebody, I should rescue a random child instead of my father. it would be worng to rescue an elder person before a younger one, and parentage wouldtake no part in the matter.
In the same way, I do not expect elan to treat his father any different from any other villain, and I would be disappointed if he did.

[johnbragg]

Indeed. It would be strange for Elan to make a plan that involves Tarquin's death. On the other hand, it would be strange for Ian to approve a plan that doesn't involve Tarquin's death.

Consider this is a world where Raise Dead and Resurrection are important considerations.

That means that breaking Tarquin's political (and economic) power is just as important as actually killing him--more important, in fact. Cut off from the political powerbase Tarquin and Team Tarquin have built, Tarquin is Thog with better grammar.

I think Ian understands that. (Also, once that part of the plan is accomplished, killing Tarquin is, not trivial, but much easier.)

[martianmister]

So, if tarquin was any random villain, it would be perfectly ok for elan to kill him, but since he's elan't father, elan should protect him?
I have a word for that.
Nepotism.

You get it wrong. Tarquin is not a nobody. He's a somebody, someone with a NAME, and related by blood to Elan. Elan can kill any nameless, no-blood-related mook he want, but he can't kill his father, which would make him evil. That's why the evilest thing Tarquin ever done is killing Nale. He's not just killed a person with name, he also killed his own son. Which change his alignment from LN to NE.

This is sarcasm

[oppyu]

If anything, Elan was merciful to Tarkie.

:elan: I could let you fall, or... hey V? How many Disintegrates do you have left? Let's see just how much HP you have Dad.

[HeeJay]

Backstabbing his father like that when all he wants is what's best for him...


Cut it out, Tarquin! You're fooling nobody by using that fake name.

[Dumbestupidiot]

You get it wrong. Tarquin is not a nobody. He's a somebody, someone with a NAME, and related by blood to Elan. Elan can kill any nameless, no-blood-related mook he want, but he can't kill his father, which would make him evil. That's why the evilest thing Tarquin ever done is killing Nale. He's not just killed a person with name, he also killed his own son. Which change his alignment from LN to NE.

This is sarcasm

Do me a favor and make the sarcasm more obvious next time : P I was about to go on a interesting diatribe on the difference between genes and an actual parent/child relationship within the context of murder/tyrannicide but then i spotted the sarcasm note and it took all the wind out of my sails... sigh...

[Kruploy]

@theNater, SaintRidley, Bulldog Psion

While Tarquin is indeed a villain, his villainy is a symptom of insanity not evil. From his actions in the comic, I got the impression that he does indeed love Elan but he simply expresses it in his own deranged ways.

In fact, I think he even loved Nale. He was willing to forget and forgive Nale's murder of his best friend and even keep him safe from his allies. True, he killed Nale but considering that other people suffered horribly at his hands for far far less, I think he at the very least cared for Nale.

Thus, I think Elan should attempt to find a way to reason with his dad once this Xykon mess is over instead of helping his enemies who are pretty much guaranteed to kill him even if Elan's plan doesn't involve Tarquin's death.

@Math_Mage

I resent these accusations, a controversial opinion or two does not a troll make.

@Happy Gravity

Insulting people is in and of itself is being intentionally provocative, do some self examination, will you?

@blunk

I am indeed qualified, all people are entitled to their opinions. It doesn't matter if I say the sky is blue or the sky is red. You may think it is wrong but if you want to hold a civil conversation you have to respect my right to opinions nonetheless.

@Snaaake

Tarquin want what he thinks is the best for Elan. Unfortunately, his way of thinking is of the less sane kind.

I don't think Elan ever wanted Tarquin dead, he never even wanted Nale dead, despite all that he put him through.

@King of Nowere

I vehemently disagree with this. Your father fed you, gave you a warm home, looked after you for nearly two decades, provided money for your education, protected you from danger, put up with you for a very long time and selflessly helped you in countless other ways.

Saving some random kid over your dad to whom you owe so much would be one of the most evil, vilest of acts of betrayal you could ever commit in my opinion. In fact, I am certain that most people, even saints, would agree with me on this point.

Even if your dad was an evil madman, he still gave you life. Indirectly, he is the reason for all the joy in your life because if it wasn't for him, you would literally be nonexistant. Therefore, he deserves your gratitude and respect unless he harms you or intends to harm you enough for you to turn on him in my opinion.

[NerdyKris]

Can you please give any evidence at all that Tarquin is insane? Because I don't see any.

[King of Nowhere]

@theNater, SaintRidley, Bulldog Psion

While Tarquin is indeed a villain, his villainy is a symptom of insanity not evil. From his actions in the comic, I got the impression that he does indeed love Elan but he simply expresses it in his own deranged ways.


How do you get the impression that tarquin is mad? people often tend to call "mad" or "stupid" other people who just think differently from them. "Highly functioning madman" actually means "perfectly sane, just with values that we don't comprehend". Yes, tarquin does indeed love his sons, but even evil has loved ones.
And almost every evil person will believe he's justified. Robbers believe that they are rightfully taking back money that the society stole from them, drug sellers believe there's nothing wrrong with selling drugs in high schools, rapists believe their victims liked it. It don't make them crazy.
Furthermore, even if we agreed that taquin is crazy, he's still a 20th level crazy killer, and should be put down for the safety of everyone. Just like a rabid dog bears no fault for his illeness, but he must still be put down because there are no better solutions. a regular madman could be put into an apposite structure, but tarquin is too powerful to not escape sooner or later.




@King of Nowere

I vehemently disagree with this. Your father fed you, gave you a warm home, looked after you for nearly two decades, provided money for your education, protected you from danger, put up with you for a very long time and selflessly helped you in countless other ways.

Saving some random kid over your dad to whom you owe so much would be one of the most evil, vilest of acts of betrayal you could ever commit in my opinion. In fact, I am certain that most people, even saints, would agree with me on this point.

Even if your dad was an evil madman, he still gave you life. Indirectly, he is the reason for all the joy in your life because if it wasn't for him, you would literally be nonexistant. Therefore, he deserves your gratitude and respect unless he harms you or intends to harm you enough for you to turn on him in my opinion.
I see.
You have person-oriented moral values, while I have society-oriented ones.
To you, if a person was nice to you, he's ok for you, even if that person was mean to society, and viceversa. to me, if a person is nice to society he's ok for me, even if he's mean to me, and viceversa.
Well, I would quite like to discuss the philosophycal implications of all this. But this is really not the place. It would immediately boil down to "morally justified" arguments and real-life discussions. It would also hijack the thread into an heated discussion, because people tend to be passionate about what they believe to be right or wrong.
And it would probably be pointless too. To me the idea that in judging people what they did to you is more important than what they did to others is obviously evil and, if applied on a large scale, leading to disaster - cause valuing more people with a social bond to you directly leads to discrimination of others, and therefore to racism, political violence, blood feuds, all those kind of stuff that would not happen if people weren't willing to say "this guy is clearly wrong, but since he's from my tribe/race/political party/football team, I'm going to support him". To you my idea is obviously evil, for reasons that I don't understand that probably have to do with ungratefulness, repay other's kindness, and "if we think of society before people we end up with people being considered an expendable resource", cue for arguments about alienation, loss of human dignity and somesuch.
I doubt we can understand each other, so let's just agree to disagree.

EDIT: I'm also pretty sure anyone with a formal education in philosophy will know the exact names of the two different competing moral philosophies and will be able to quote dozens of books treating the arguments of the pros and cons of each one.

[Alignment]

From his actions in the comic, I got the impression that he does indeed love Elan but he simply expresses it in his own deranged ways.

In fact, I think he even loved Nale.

The Giant thinks differently.


I don't think Tarquin sat around thinking, "Ha ha! I am fooling them into thinking I love my family! I am so clever!" I think he thought that he really loved his family, right up until the point where loving his family conflicted with him being in total control. And then both he and the readers got to see which one of the two really mattered to him.

In other words, when I use the word "facade," I am not referring to a conscious artifice on Tarquin's part. I am referring to the idea that the true core of his being is hidden—possibly even from himself—until the crucible of the story burns it out of him.

[Amphiox]

{{scrubbed}}

[Amphiox]

What exactly does Elan owe Tarquin, via-a-vis the father-son relationship? Did Tarquin raise him? Did Tarquin teach him? Did Tarquin give him anything? All we've seen so far is Tarquin trying to give Elan things Elan does not want, do things in Elan's name than Elan finds abhorrent, and make Elan grow in a way Elan doesn't want to grow, but hurting Elan and the people Elan loves.

As for the singular act that "gave Elan life", Elan did not ask for it, Tarquin did not likely do it solely for the sake of making Elan, and Tarquin probably enjoyed it. Whatever he might have been owed for that momentary act, he's already been paid for in full. Elan owes him NOTHING. No more than Durkon owes Malack for his new vampire abilities.

What care and consideration Tarquin has so far received from Elan was something Elan freely gave out of the goodness of his heart. It was not something Tarquin was ever owed, and certainly not something he ever deserved.

[NerdyKris]

Kurploy, are you are psychiatrist? Do you have a patient-physician relationship with Tarquin? Have you examined him in person?

If not, you are not entitled to be labelling him "insane", and doing so is an insult to all real life mentally ill individuals who despite everything do not go around raping women, oppressing millions, and murdering sons.

There is in fact nothing that Tarquin has done that fully sane evil people have not also done.

Woah. I disagree with his assessment, but I think you're taking that a little strongly. We don't need to be licensed psychiatrists to discuss a fictional character's mental state.

[blunk]

I am indeed qualified, all people are entitled to their opinions.
[...]
You may think it is wrongYou are entitled! But none of us are qualified - that is, able to intentionally form a *good* opinion - except the characters, and Mr. Burlew.

I don't think your opinion is wrong. I think it's unable to be accurately judged by readers, including you.

[Kish]

*impassioned defense of fathers, however utterly evil they may be*
I am pleased to say Elan will continue to disappoint you.

[Amphiox]

Woah. I disagree with his assessment, but I think you're taking that a little strongly. We don't need to be licensed psychiatrists to discuss a fictional character's mental state.

When we discuss the mental states of characters in fiction, we really should avoid playing up known stereotypes of mentally ill people in real life that do enormous real life harm, as the poster of the OP is doing here.

[Loreweaver15]

Even if your dad was an evil madman, he still gave you life. Indirectly, he is the reason for all the joy in your life because if it wasn't for him, you would literally be nonexistant. Therefore, he deserves your gratitude and respect unless he harms you or intends to harm you enough for you to turn on him in my opinion.

Ooh, ooh! I know this one!

Tarquin has attacked Elan, attempting to sever limbs and cause massive (but not lethal) injury, for starters. But on top of that...

Tarquin has repeatedly attempted to murder people who have been there for a larger part of Elan's life than Tarquin, who love him, whom he loves; far from being the reason for all the joy in Elan's life--joy which Elan has found for himself, thank you--Tarquin has attempted to remove as much of the joy from Elan's life as he could.

I'd be plotting against my parents if they did all the things Tarquin did, and I've known them for decades and love them immensely--neither of which applies to Elan, who just met his father.

[crayzz]

We don't need to be licensed psychiatrists to discuss a fictional character's mental state.

To merely discuss it, no, we don't.

To discuss it accurately, we do need someone who actually has an educated understanding of mental illnesses, how they function, what the various symptoms are, etc. Otherwise, we risk relying on common myths and falsehoods that surround mental illness, and we risk stigmatizing mental illnesses.

(Note: the OP did note merely label Tarquin with a mental state, xe labelled Tarquin as mentally ill; as a raving lunatic and a madman who needs professional help. It's two differents things to discuss what a character might feel and how he might behave vs. whether or not said character might suffer from a mental illness.)


While Tarquin is indeed a villain, his villainy is a symptom of insanity not evil.

I would be amazed if you were actually capable of substantiating this claim.


I vehemently disagree with this. Your father fed you, gave you a warm home, looked after you for nearly two decades, provided money for your education, protected you from danger, put up with you for a very long time and selflessly helped you in countless other ways.

I note that this is actually not true of Tarquin.

[SaintRidley]

@King of Nowere

I vehemently disagree with this. Your father fed you, gave you a warm home, looked after you for nearly two decades, provided money for your education, protected you from danger, put up with you for a very long time and selflessly helped you in countless other ways.

Saving some random kid over your dad to whom you owe so much would be one of the most evil, vilest of acts of betrayal you could ever commit in my opinion. In fact, I am certain that most people, even saints, would agree with me on this point.

Even if your dad was an evil madman, he still gave you life. Indirectly, he is the reason for all the joy in your life because if it wasn't for him, you would literally be nonexistant. Therefore, he deserves your gratitude and respect unless he harms you or intends to harm you enough for you to turn on him in my opinion.

Unfortunately there's nothing worth addressing in your response to me, so I'm just going to say that Tarquin is not mentally ill and see how you handle making sense of the world with that information.

Now, this response is interesting. How do you know that King of Nowhere's father did any of this for him? You don't know the man or the details of King's life, so on what grounds do you make your judgements? King of Nowhere's father may have abandoned King's mother before he was born, or he may have gone out for cigarettes one day when King was just a boy and never returned. The mere act of ejaculating into a vagina does not a respectable human being make, nor does the existence of a child mean that the father is a worthwhile human being - look no further than Elan and Nale to Tarquin in the comic.

So, really, I don't see how you can make this argument and actually mean it, given its sheer absurdity. Unless you are King of Nowhere's father. In which case I say take the hint, because you clearly did not leave your son with a positive impression of you as a person. I can't say I blame him, given your deplorable skills in the realm of making interesting arguments.

[Kish]

I would be amazed if you were actually capable of substantiating this claim.
Indeed, while I tend to the view that Tarquin is crazy, Elan recently pointed out that to what extent Tarquin can be said to be insane, at least two other characters in the comic are borderline in the same form of insanity: Elan himself and Julio Scoundrel.

Neither of them is a villain. Somehow.

[LuisDantas]

Tarquin has been keeping a tyrannical and murderous scheme for years, has killed Nale in cold blood in from of Elan, has stated flat-out that he intends to kill all of his friends, and has trespassed Elan himself with a sword just to show a point.

Evil, Insane or both, one can hardly fault Elan for wanting to stop him. It is not like Tarquin has been denied the opportunity for less confrontational interaction, either.

Quite frankly, Elan does not have a lot of choice at this point.

[Heksefatter]

Tarquin is a monster, a mass-murderer, despot, warmongerer, torturer and rapist.

Whether he is insane or not is not very relevant. No matter if he is, the main issue should be to stop the monster, not to find the "whys" of it.

[Amphiox]

Indeed, while I tend to the view that Tarquin is crazy, Elan recently pointed out that to what extent Tarquin can be said to be insane, at least two other characters in the comic are borderline in the same form of insanity: Elan himself and Julio Scoundrel.

Neither of them is a villain. Somehow.

That way of viewing the world would only be insane in the real world. In the Stickverse, however, that way of viewing the world is not only consistent with how the world actually works, it has on several occasions been explicitly demonstrated to be an effective means of viewing the world.

One of the definitional components of insanity is the holding of views/ideas/motivations that are contradicted by observable reality. But in the Stickverse, that manner of thinking is not contradicted at all, it is in fact supported by observable reality.

Indeed, it is the characters who deny that narrative convention is a real thing that exists in the Stickverse and that applying such knowledge can inform one's actions in a useful way who are closer to being insane than either Elan, Julio, or Tarquin, on that particular point.

[Starwulf]

I vehemently disagree with this. Your father fed you, gave you a warm home, looked after you for nearly two decades, provided money for your education, protected you from danger, put up with you for a very long time and selflessly helped you in countless other ways.

Saving some random kid over your dad to whom you owe so much would be one of the most evil, vilest of acts of betrayal you could ever commit in my opinion. In fact, I am certain that most people, even saints, would agree with me on this point.

Even if your dad was an evil madman, he still gave you life. Indirectly, he is the reason for all the joy in your life because if it wasn't for him, you would literally be nonexistant. Therefore, he deserves your gratitude and respect unless he harms you or intends to harm you enough for you to turn on him in my opinion.

That is...kind of insane. Are you SERIOUSLY saying that if you found out that your Father was a serial killer(or hell, even just a serial rapist), that you wouldn't rat him out unless he did something that directly affected you? Hell, I love and respect my Father more then anyone else in this world barring my wife and children, but if he raped or killed even just ONE person, I would knock him out with a frying pan and take him to the cops myself.

Heck, I'm pretty sure that if you knew your Father(or anyone close to you) was committing such atrocious acts, and the police found out, that you would be arrested as an accomplice for withholding information.

[Wamyen]

The inability to feel shame, guilt or remorse for your own actions is the mark of being a sociopath. Pretty sure Tarquin has shown that in spades. He should be deposed at any cost.

[Cavenskull]

Kruploy, in a comic that's focused on comedy, I don't think it's a good idea to take the concept of sanity too seriously. I mean, we have a character who worships a hand puppet, another character who talks to her money, and still another character who considers trees to be dangerous enemies--and that's just in the party of good guys!

If you really want to take this seriously, as Kish pointed out, by your logic Elan shares the same insanity. Because of this, I'm disappointed in you for not accepting Elan's insanity. You should realize that he only wants what's best for his father, and is treating Tarquin like the villain he wants to be. It's not Elan's fault he's not doing it the way his father wants him to. Elan is crazy, and can only think from the narrative perspective of a protagonist.

[theNater]

Saving some random kid over your dad to whom you owe so much would be one of the most evil, vilest of acts of betrayal you could ever commit in my opinion.
There are a few relevant points from the D&D alignment rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment) here: Good implies respect for life, Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others, and Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Saving a younger person over an older person displays respect for life, by trying to maximize amount of life lived. With the older person being family, that is presumably a sacrifice on the part of the person making the decision. That makes saving the child the Good option, by the D&D definitions.

Saving the family member means prioritizing the personal relationship over the optimization of lifetime, or at least being unwilling to sacrifice the personal relationship for it. That is Neutral behavior, by the D&D definitions.

Elan, in trying to stop his father, is doing Good by the D&D definitions. You may disagree with those definitions, but in the world he lives in, he's doing right.

I notice that you're fairly new here, so I just want to say: even if you disagree with the D&D definitions of Good and Evil, I'd advise against doing more than stating your disagreement. Explaining and/or defending it has a tendency to take discussions into topics that are off limits on this forum.

[Socksy]

That is...kind of insane. Are you SERIOUSLY saying that if you found out that your Father was a serial killer(or hell, even just a serial rapist), that you wouldn't rat him out unless he did something that directly affected you? Hell, I love and respect my Father more then anyone else in this world barring my wife and children, but if he raped or killed even just ONE person, I would knock him out with a frying pan and take him to the cops myself.

Heck, I'm pretty sure that if you knew your Father(or anyone close to you) was committing such atrocious acts, and the police found out, that you would be arrested as an accomplice for withholding information.

Are you honestly saying that you would let your own father rot in prison for committing a crime which didn't affect you or those you care about in the least?

Because I certainly wouldn't.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying your view is wrong, I'm just saying that there are clearly going to be very different views on things like this, probably based on our relationships with our fathers and what our own 'alignments' would be. not that alignment applies fully to real life but you know what i mean ok

And before anyone points this out, yes, I know that raping or murdering one person is completely different from what Tarquin did.

[Starwulf]

Are you honestly saying that you would let your own father rot in prison for committing a crime which didn't affect you or those you care about in the least?

Because I certainly wouldn't.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying your view is wrong, I'm just saying that there are clearly going to be very different views on things like this, probably based on our relationships with our fathers and what our own 'alignments' would be. not that alignment applies fully to real life but you know what i mean ok

And before anyone points this out, yes, I know that raping or murdering one person is completely different from what Tarquin did.

Yes, I would let my father rot in prison if he committed a crime, regardless of whether or not the crime he committed affected me. As long as it was a major crime(arson, kidnapping, assault(the kind that puts people in a hospital), murder, rape), I would tell the police myself if I found out about it. And as I said before, I love my father dearly, and respect him more then anyone else in this world. I honestly can't even fathom the idea that someone would allow anyone, even if it was the person who gave them life, hurt another person, and keep on doing it even after they find out. I'd even go so far as to say that if you don't stop them from hurting someone, it would make your "alignment" evil. Or very close to it.

[Vinyadan]

Are you honestly saying that you would let your own father rot in prison for committing a crime which didn't affect you or those you care about in the least?

Because I certainly wouldn't.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying your view is wrong, I'm just saying that there are clearly going to be very different views on things like this, probably based on our relationships with our fathers and what our own 'alignments' would be. not that alignment applies fully to real life but you know what i mean ok

And before anyone points this out, yes, I know that raping or murdering one person is completely different from what Tarquin did.

Urgh, this is really hard to digest.

But please, let's try to avoid the "morally justified" themes. I think we are getting dangerously close to "is having punishment for his heinous crimes exacted upon your father morally justified?".

[Socksy]

Yes, I would let my father rot in prison if he committed a crime, regardless of whether or not the crime he committed affected me. As long as it was a major crime(arson, kidnapping, assault(the kind that puts people in a hospital), murder, rape), I would tell the police myself if I found out about it. And as I said before, I love my father dearly, and respect him more then anyone else in this world. I honestly can't even fathom the idea that someone would allow anyone, even if it was the person who gave them life, hurt another person, and keep on doing it even after they find out. I'd even go so far as to say that if you don't stop them from hurting someone, it would make your "alignment" evil. Or very close to it.

Then I suppose we're just very different people in terms of morals, with different ideas of what's right.

EDIT: Yes, everyone shutting up before the thread turns into troll bait is a good idea. Anyone got a topic we can discuss?

[Starwulf]

Then I suppose we're just very different people in terms of morals, with different ideas of what's right.

EDIT: Yes, everyone shutting up before the thread turns into troll bait is a good idea. Anyone got a topic we can discuss?

Think you could PM me at least on exactly why you think it's ok to let someone else hurt another person for any reason at all just because they are your parent? As I said, i find it very hard to fathom that kind of mentality. I likely won't respond back, as I don't want to get into a vehement argument, I'd just like to get your reasoning on it.

[Rodin]

Anyone got a topic we can discuss?

Muffins. This thread is now officially about tasty, tasty muffins.

[Starwulf]

Muffins. This thread is now officially about tasty, tasty muffins.

What kind of Muffins? Blueberry? Chocolate? Raspberry? I'm partial to Blueberry myself, my wife prefers Pumpkin though.

[oppyu]

Muffins. This thread is now officially about tasty, tasty muffins.
Aww, I thought this was going to turn into a thread about daddy issues. I had a great line about how much his other families loved having him around.

Hmph.

So, muffins. I do like muffins. Maybe I'll bake some muffins. Any tips on what kind?

[Socksy]

Banana and blueberry!

/sends off PM to Starwulf

[Starwulf]

Banana and blueberry!

/sends off PM to Starwulf

We have something in common. Banana is my 2nd favorite ^^

[Socksy]

We have something in common. Banana is my 2nd favorite ^^

Yay!

Now I'm hungry, and I've eaten all my cookies.
Sadly our phone lines don't work, so I can't make muffins as cooking + touchscreen mobile don't mix D:

[Math_Mage]

Then I suppose we're just very different people in terms of morals, with different ideas of what's right.

EDIT: Yes, everyone shutting up before the thread turns into troll bait is a good idea. Anyone got a topic we can discuss?
Isn't that where this thread started?

[Socksy]

Isn't that where this thread started?

Nah, that's bait set by a troll. I meant bait to attract trolls. :D

[DaggerPen]

I like blueberry.

[AgentofHellfire]

You get it wrong. Tarquin is not a nobody. He's a somebody, someone with a NAME, and related by blood to Elan. Elan can kill any nameless, no-blood-related mook he want, but he can't kill his father, which would make him evil. That's why the evilest thing Tarquin ever done is killing Nale. He's not just killed a person with name, he also killed his own son. Which change his alignment from LN to NE.

This is sarcasm


Sigging this. Seriously, I am. :smalltongue:

[Kruploy]

@NerdyKris, crayzz, SaintRidley

Burning a few slaves alive is not a very reasonable act to do but can be attributed to evil, expecting your moral, upstanding son to agree with you on just how awesome this act is after explaining it in detail is skirting the borders of sanity.

What really cements Tarquin's madness is his killing of Nale solely because he is a B-list villain, cluttering the obvious narrative between him and Elan and this is just the start. After this, Tarquin labels Elan's obvious grief as expected melodrama and then attempts to kill all of Elan's friends because they are preventing him from reaching his full potential. I think his insanity is revealed in full at this point.

This isn't even the end point, from his relentless chase of Elan over this pointless issue even when it becomes clear he is severely outnumbered to his heartfelt congratulations to Elan finally attacking him with a giant crossbow bolt all show that there isn't a lot of sanity to spare in Tarquin's head.

Even his ultimate plan is completely bonkers. In real life, historical villains never enjoy the praise and worship heroes get in droves. People like Hitler and Stalin are bashed relentlessly at almost every opportunity while people like Churchill and Lincoln enjoy a ton of praise and even have statues to their honor. The fact that Tarquin can't even see how his plan would work better if he was a good guy shows just how far he is gone.

@Amphiox, blunk

As I said before everybody are entitled to their own opinions. I have the right to label whoever I want whatever I want, you may disagree but you have to respect my opinion so long as it is not insulting to you specifically.

@Loreweaver15

Fair point but I still maintain that Tarquin is insane for all the reasons I have given above. I think Elan should be more forgiving towards his father given his fractured mental state.

@SaintRidley

Insulting me is not a good way supporting what you seem to think passes for an argument. Be more civil or simply leave the topic if you are incapable of upholding the basic ettiquette of society.

@Kish, Cavenskull

Julio and Elan have the capacity to realise when their adherence to narrative causality is hurting them and the people they care about and putting it aside, this makes them goofs not maniacs. Tarquin literally can't do this, he must satisy the demands of his beliefs regardless of what it costs him that's why he is out of his mind.

@LuisDantas, Heksefatter

While I agree with these arguments, Elan had the chance to stop Tarquin without risking him put of commission permanently and he didn't take it. He could have brought him on board, taken away his magic items and locked him somewhere until he could find help for him after this whole mess with Xykon is over

@Starwulf

Calling my argument insane is quite frankly just insulting, explain why you disagree with resorting to brutish insults and random capitalisations.

Also, I disagree with you.

@theNater

OOtS is not a comic that adheres to the rules of D&D with complete accuracy. This is because, most people including the Giant have recognised that the alignment system just plain doesn't work properly where morally complex decisions are concerned. An example would be Durkon's helpfulness to his team. He is a vampire now, D&D dictates he must be evil but he hasn't committed any evil acts so far...

That said I have the right to defend my views as much as you do and if a discussion spirals out of the bounds of the rules I will be happy to have the moderators lock the topic. I mean no offense here.

@Rodin

Waffles > Muffins. I hate muffins, how can you guys eat that?

[theNater]

OOtS is not a comic that adheres to the rules of D&D with complete accuracy. This is because, most people including the Giant have recognised that the alignment system just plain doesn't work properly where morally complex decisions are concerned.
Do you have a source on the Giant believing that the alignment system doesn't work where morally complex decisions are concerned? Because I have Celia's closing argument (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html) and this quote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12718471#post12718471) from the forums:

...D&D cannot and should not begin and end at black-and-white, and indeed already doesn't, if everyone would just learn to look at things a little more complexly.
Both of those suggest that the alignment system continues to work works when things get complicated.

An example would be Durkon's helpfulness to his team. He is a vampire now, D&D dictates he must be evil but he hasn't committed any evil acts so far...
Being Evil doesn't prohibit one from helping Good people or being a good teammate. That's never been part of the D&D alignment system. Durkon's behavior since becoming a vampire is entirely consistent with an Evil alignment.

[Throknor]

What kind of Muffins? Blueberry? Chocolate? Raspberry? I'm partial to Blueberry myself, my wife prefers Pumpkin though.
Variable-Speed Corn Muffins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html)!

[Cizak]

As I said before everybody are entitled to their own opinions. I have the right to label whoever I want whatever I want, you may disagree but you have to respect my opinion so long as it is not insulting to you specifically.

Bolded part mine.

Nice try, but no. They definitely do not have to respect your opinion. What they do have to do, as per freedom of speech, is repect your right to have an opinion.

[King of Nowhere]

Unfortunately there's nothing worth addressing in your response to me, so I'm just going to say that Tarquin is not mentally ill and see how you handle making sense of the world with that information.

Now, this response is interesting. How do you know that King of Nowhere's father did any of this for him? You don't know the man or the details of King's life, so on what grounds do you make your judgements? King of Nowhere's father may have abandoned King's mother before he was born, or he may have gone out for cigarettes one day when King was just a boy and never returned. The mere act of ejaculating into a vagina does not a respectable human being make, nor does the existence of a child mean that the father is a worthwhile human being - look no further than Elan and Nale to Tarquin in the comic.

So, really, I don't see how you can make this argument and actually mean it, given its sheer absurdity. Unless you are King of Nowhere's father. In which case I say take the hint, because you clearly did not leave your son with a positive impression of you as a person. I can't say I blame him, given your deplorable skills in the realm of making interesting arguments.

You know, it's pretty rude to make that kind of speculation on my father like that, just because you don't understand my moral views.
My father is an incredibly good person who likes to help people. He's not without flaws, and my relation with him is often strained, but he's still one of the best people I know.
But he is also quite old, he can expect to live roughly 15-20 years more, while a kid has all his life in front of him. It is a normal rule in emergencies: help the younger person first. And as I said, I consider giving more favorable conditions to your relatives, only because they are relatives, to be nepotism. The good action, from my point of view, is clearly to rescue the child over the elder, regardless of whom you are related with.
Furthermore, as I said, my father is a good person. I'm pretty sure that in such a circumstance he himself would want me to rescue the child.
Anyway, this was all hypotetical to say that to me family do not give anyone a higher moral status. In truth, I would try to save both, and succeed or die trying - and not the "heroic sacrifice" kind of death, the "oh crap, I really tought I had more stamina than that" kind of death; I have an uncanny optimism over my capability of getting out of troubles, so I'd fully expect to be able to save both until too late. Also, despite his age my father is still in good shape, and he excercises much more than i do. if we ever found ourselves on a sinking boat, chances are he'd be the one rescuing the child. and possibly me too.

[Amphiox]

Bolded part mine.

Nice try, but no. They definitely do not have to respect your opinion. What they do have to do, as per freedom of speech, is repect your right to have an opinion.

Even more than that, freedom of speech means respect for the right to express said opinion.

But to "have" to respect the opinion itself? That would be thought control.

[DaggerPen]

Even more than that, freedom of speech means respect for the right to express said opinion.

But to "have" to respect the opinion itself? That would be thought control.

Or, put more simply-

You have the right to say whatever you want. The rest of us have the right to say you're laughably wrong.

[blunk]

As I said before everybody are entitled to their own opinions. I have the right to label whoever I want whatever I wantIt's true, you can express all the opinions you like - even if you don't have enough information to express an intentionally good one, as is the case here.

I'm pointing out that you're wasting your time. But you have a right to do that, too.

[Amphiox]

Or, put more simply-

You have the right to say whatever you want. The rest of us have the right to say you're laughably wrong.

And then laugh at you, as viciously as we feel like.

[DaggerPen]

And then laugh at you, as viciously as we feel like.

Well, I was going to leave that part out. :smalltongue:

[NerdyKris]

Bolded part mine.

Nice try, but no. They definitely do not have to respect your opinion. What they do have to do, as per freedom of speech, is repect your right to have an opinion.

No. Freedom of speech means the government cannot make any laws limiting speech. It has no bearing on private citizens. Even on this forum, your speech is limited. You cannot flame other posters, we can't discuss politics or religion, and we can't discuss illegal activity.

An individual does not have any rights to make their opinion heard in a private setting.

[crayzz]

Burning a few slaves alive is not a very reasonable act to do but can be attributed to evil, expecting your moral, upstanding son to agree with you on just how awesome this act is after explaining it in detail is skirting the borders of sanity.

Tarquin explicitly disavows any concept of good and evil. And before that moment, Tarquin has no reason to suspect that Elan wouldn't like it. Nale certainly didn't mind killing innocents, and Elan has so far voiced no objections to any other evil acts that Tarquin had done, up to an including enslaving most of the continent.


What really cements Tarquin's madness is his killing of Nale solely because he is a B-list villain, cluttering the obvious narrative between him and Elan and this is just the start.

He killed Nale because Nale was actively opposing him. Are you even reading the comic? Nale organized a rebellion against Tarquin. After losing (killing Malack's spawn in the process), Nale returns and kills Malack. THEN Nale refuses any nepotism from Tarquin. Nale has repeatedly antagonized Tarquin and Tarquin's group. The only reason he survived as long as he did was because Tarquin defended him.


Even his ultimate plan is completely bonkers. In real life, historical villains never enjoy the praise and worship heroes get in droves.

He doesn't want praise and worship. He wants to live as king for rest of his life. In fact, his plan has already worked. He rules an empire. He has lived happily for years. The only question is whether or not the story of his eventual downfall becomes legendary.

This isn't real life. This is a story, and Tarquin knows it. He's not going to be Hitler or Stalin. He's emperor Palpatine, or Fire Lord Ozai. That's what he wants, and if his plan continues he's going to get his wish. But even if he doesn't, he gets to live like a king in the meantime.


I have the right to label whoever I want whatever I want, you may disagree but you have to respect my opinion so long as it is not insulting to you specifically.

What you have a right to do is a red herring. The question is what you should or should not be doing. So far, you have no justification for claiming that Tarquin's evil is a product of mental illness, and asserting that it must be so furthers the stigmatization of mental illness.

And no, it does not need to be insulting to me specifically for me to object to it. Basic empathy is all it takes for me to think insulting and stigmatizing others is just as problematic as insulting and stigmatizing myself and people like me.

[oppyu]

@Rodin

Waffles > Muffins. I hate muffins, how can you guys eat that?
Well now you're clearly just being offensive for the sake of being offensive.

[zimmerwald1915]

Tarquin explicitly disavows any concept of good and evil. And before that moment, Tarquin has no reason to suspect that Elan wouldn't like it. Nale certainly didn't mind killing innocents, and Elan has so far voiced no objections to any other evil acts that Tarquin had done, up to an including enslaving most of the continent.
:elan: Dad, I'm so confused. Did the Empress order you to do all that bad stuff [betraying the Free City of Doom and targeting Amun-Zora's husband personally for assassination so he could marry her]? Because it sounds pretty bad... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html)

Sounds like a pretty strong moral objection to me, made well before Tarquin's explicit disavowal of the moral alignment axis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html). Coming back to strip 757, Tarquin then tells Elan not to "worry about it," implicitly recognizing that Elan is currently worried that Tarquin is wrapped up in "bad stuff," i.e., is developing a moral objection to what Tarquin is doing. True, Elan is still grasping at straws at this point, trying to pass the buck to the Empress (much like some vocal forum members were doing at the time, and much like they'd continue to do with Malack vis a vis Tarquin), but the implication that Elan considers Tarquin's actions wrong is clear.

Moving on to strip 758 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), Elan claims that he needs to hear Tarquin's justifications. This is not something you demand of someone you trust; it is a thing you demand of someone whose motives you suspect. Tarquin prevaricates, and Elan's face visibly changes, moving from calm to "annoyed" (:smallannoyed:). Tarquin's full explanation then causes Elan to "eek" (:smalleek:). At this point, Elan is emotionally engaged; this is unquestionably important to him.

Moving on to strip 759 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html), Elan comes out with "this conquest scheme is a terrible idea. You need to stop." All of this is still before Tarquin's disavowal. At this point, if Tarquin doesn't know that Elan is likely to object to his worldview, he is either delusional or hasn't been listening. And after a series of objections to acts Tarquin has performed spread over three strips, you have no grounds to claim that "Elan has so far voiced no objections to any other evil acts that Tarquin had done."

Incidentally, on a completely different topic, I discovered in researching this that Amun-Zora knows someone who can cast sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html), and that this person survived at least the initial sack of Doom.

[Starwulf]

@Starwulf

Calling my argument insane is quite frankly just insulting, explain why you disagree with resorting to brutish insults and random capitalisations.

Also, I disagree with you.



Saying you are insane would be insulting, saying your opinion is insane is just my opinion. And I disagree with you. But, as has been agreed earlier, going further is just going to bring the mods down on us. I just wished to reply saying that it's not insulting to say your opinion is crazy. I'm sure plenty of people think other peoples opinions are crazy. That's their opinion. It's not until you start calling the other person themselves crazy does it become an insult.

Example: you have what you think is a stupendous idea at work, a revolutionary new way to do something, and you pitch it to your boss. He thinks it's outrageous and expresses this thought by telling you your idea is ridiculous(the same thing as calling it crazy). It happens all the time in every day life, and if you let yourself be insulted by someone thinking your ideas or opinions are crazy, then it might be time to grow a thicker skin.

[crayzz]

At this point, if Tarquin doesn't know that Elan is likely to object to his worldview, he is either delusional or hasn't been listening. And after a series of objections to acts Tarquin has performed spread over three strips, you have no grounds to claim that "Elan has so far voiced no objections to any other evil acts that Tarquin had done."

Aye, I retract my earlier claim.

[Othniel Edden]

Tarquin is a filicidal maniac. I think that disqualifies him from fatherly protections.