[PF] need character idea for Skull & Shackles AP

[Firechanter]

Hey gang,

as it says on the tin. An acquaintance has invited me to their game; the group is going to start the S&S AP next weekend.

The other players are - according to the DM - very low-op, and are planning to roll the following toons:
- Bard
- Cleric
- Gunslinger

I promised the DM not to use any primary caster class as he's afraid I might bust the game.

The generation method will be a measly PB15, with which I'm not happy at all. Actually I'm having half a mind to skip the whole thing, because I really hate having to use dumpstats. I'd especially hate dumping Cha, as the AP is reputed to revolve around leadership and NPC interactions.

So, in this light - how can I salvage this?

Since I don't want to run a double (i.e. another Bard or so), so far I've come up with the following ideas:

- Magus /w Dervish Dance -- light armour and single one-handed weapon would be pretty in-theme with the Pirate setting. Also, decent amount of skills.
Drawback: I'd have to dump Wis and Cha _hard_ to get by.
- Summoner -- let my Eidolon do the fighting. At least I'd have good Cha.
Drawback: doesn't feel very pirate-y. Not hot in the skills department.
- Barbarian or Fighter with big mean Falchion or reach weapon or something. Can appear moderately pirate-y.
Drawback: again, I'd have to dump mental stats and be very lean on skills.

Any ideas?

[ArcanistSupreme]

You could be a Dread (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/dread) Pirate. Pun aside, that class actually seems very MAD now that I look at it.

The Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) is actually pretty SAD if built right. The Cutthroat archetype in particular is very piratey. What level are you starting at?

There's also the Cryptic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/cryptic), while we're on psionics. Stat allocation for a ranged cryptic is roughly Int>Dex=Con>Cha=Wis>Str. It can fit the "behind the scenes strategist" or "master thief" pirate themes.

[BiblioRook]

If you are willing to be a Fighter and go into melee (assuming), why not just be a Rogue instead? Can't be more piraty then a Rogue. That will certainly cover your concern on skills if nothing else. You can even take it further and take up the Rogue's Pirate alternate class features.

But yeah, seriously. Don't skimp on skills. From what I remember Skull & Shackles really likes it's skill checks.

[Nihilarian]

Ninja is better than rogue most of the time, so I'd suggest not taking rogue.

Alternatively, Dreamscarred Press is doing Tome of Battle inspired classes (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=3066.html).

[BiblioRook]

I'm not sure just how thematically appropriate Ninjas would be for a pirate campaign.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I'm not sure just how thematically appropriate Ninjas would be for a pirate campaign.

You could just take ninja levels, act like a pirate, talk like a pirate, and call yourself a pirate. What's the issue?:smallconfused:

[BiblioRook]

I only mention it because the poster actually (surprisingly) seems concerned with keeping with theme.

But really it's a pretty stupid thing to bicker about considering how minor the differences between Ninjas and Rogues are, especially at low levels (which I'm guessing will be the case here).
Actually that being said I would still probably suggest going Rogue. With the archetypes they just tend to be more customizable to suit your needs (needs like, say, being a pirate). In fact, considering how few differences there are between Rogues and Ninjas I'm actually rather flabbergasted that it's considered a different class at all and just just another archetype.

Honestly though, what bonuses one would get from being a Ninja over a Rogue probably won't even come into play and it's largely a moot point.

[Bigbeefie]

Rogue is a good class but with current make up f oesnt look as if you will have a flanking buddy. I recommend the magus you mentioned or something that would be good on front lines. Too bad full casters are out as druid with a croc would be perfect this campaign. But you could go switch hitter ranger with boon companion and using your pet to perform maneuvers. Im a huge fan of death roll on humans. This campaign is full of humans so favored enemy will go far.

[Nihilarian]

Technically speaking the ninja IS an archetype for the rogue, or near enough as makes no difference.

As for the "minor" differences, one of those differences is swift action Greater Invisibility. That alone is worth going ninja instead of rogue. Even if you never pick up a Ki based Ninja Trick, you can expend a use to get an extra attack.

There's a very short list of reasons to use rogue over ninja, because the ninja is basically the rogue with the monk's ki pool.

[BiblioRook]

As for the "minor" differences, one of those differences is swift action Greater Invisibility. That alone is worth going ninja instead of rogue.

Because every class should be determined by it's level 20 ability. Skull & Shackles doesn't even go that far.

More seriously though, Bigbeefie does bring up a good point. Unless you have somone planning to go into melee with you Ranger will probably go further then Rogue here. Honestly don't know much about Magus enough to give much advice on them, but they certainly seem to be hurting on skills while Rangers are not.

[Nihilarian]

Because every class should be determined by it's level 20 ability. Skull & Shackles doesn't even go that far.It's a ninja trick you can take at level 10, so I don't know what you're talking about.

On another note, a Cavalier, Samurai or Paladin with an aquatic or aerial mount could be fun.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Because every class should be determined by it's level 20 ability. Skull & Shackles doesn't even go that far.

How about swift action invisibility at level 2, then (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja#TOC-Ninja-Tricks) (Vanishing Trick). :smalltongue:

[Bigbeefie]

Because every class should be determined by it's level 20 ability. Skull & Shackles doesn't even go that far.

More seriously though, Bigbeefie does bring up a good point. Unless you have somone planning to go into melee with you Ranger will probably go further then Rogue here. Honestly don't know much aboutas Magus enough to give much advice on them, but they certainly seem to be hurting on skills while Rangers are not.

I played a magus in skulls. They are strong in a campaign like this. You hardly run out of resources. But the skills of a magus are focused down to a gish. The only real skill a magus need in skulls is profession sailor. You wont be a party face cha talking yourself out of anything. You will do fine on day to day tasks and do well in the many combat situations.

The ranger will give you more skills like a pirate would have more so then a magus. He also gives you more UP, attack bonus, and feats. Like I said I recommend a switch hitter build, profession sailor, an aquatic animal companion, and boon companion feat at level 5 or 7.

[Bigbeefie]

It's a ninja trick you can take at level 10, so I don't know what you're talking about.

On another note, a Cavalier, Samurai or Paladin with an aquatic or aerial mount could be fun.

A lawful good pirate...nice way to loose your paladin status first book.

[BiblioRook]

an aquatic animal companion

Are there any companions that are amphibious? (I don't mean like Giant Frogs and such, just something equally capable both in and out of water). Because having a strictly aquatic animal companion doesn't seem that useful as even in a campaign like this most of the fighting would be on land (or ship as it would be in this case).

[Bigbeefie]

Are there any companions that are amphibious? (I don't mean like Giant Frogs and such, just something equally capable both in and out of water). Because having a strictly aquatic animal companion doesn't seem that useful as even in a campaign like this most of the fighting would be on land (or ship as it would be in this case).

Giant frog is awesome first few levels. I recommend a crocodile because they grapple and death roll. A croc can end a fight with a caster with his death roll ability. You can also look for anything with a swim speed. I think some lizards have a swim and climb speed so they can get to an enemy's ship. You can also look at flying companions. Rocs are strong choices.

[JohnStone]

My first though right off the bat was a dervish magus, id say go with that. For some good roleplay go with a Half-elf.

I suppose a ranger would be a good idea to with his full BAB.

[Firechanter]

Oh I forgot to mention: only official PF material available by default -- I'd have to check back about Psionics stuff, but the DM already turned down my Path of War request. Also, no 3.5 material. :/

The DM is pretty flexible in terms of fluff and re-fluff, however. So for example, we could wear a shirt and have it count as a full-blown chainmail - including encumbrance etc. In that light, rolling a Ninja would be no problem, fluff-wise.

However, it does look like the party needs a primary melee. Rogues may be problematic in that respect due to their BAB and CM values.

Since we're expected to play chars revolving around the CN section of the alignment pool, stuff like Paladin is right out. Cavalier doesn't have any sea-going archetype.

Concerning Fighter: the Corsair archetype is a joke; the replacement for Armour Training is a strict downgrade [you trade "reduce ACP and ignore speed penalties" for "ignore ACP for Swim checks"]; essentially the only thing it has going for itself is the ignored Cleave penalty -- a rather situational bonus for all the stuff you give up.
Other Fighter archetypes may be better, but with the stingy pointbuy there'll be no room for skills.

P.S.: currently leaning towards Tiefling (or Elf) Magus. Normally I prefer Hoomins, but here I kinda need any edge I can get.

[JohnStone]

i believe there was mention in the players guide for this adventure about Elves that are more at home on the sea than the forest (no special qualities just fluff)

[Nihilarian]

As far as the Cavalier/Samurai goes, the description of the mount ability says the DM can approve other animals as suitable mounts, so see if you can convince the DM for an aquatic or amphibious mount.

Speaking of "Ask your DM", the Mammoth Rider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/mammoth-rider) can let you ride a huge shark/whale/sea serpent/whatever. Having a whale swim alongside the ship could be pretty fun.

For a less "ask your DM" option, a half orc can snag a pteranadon with this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/beast-rider-orc-half-orc).

[BiblioRook]

You never did mention what level you are starting out with, but with the low point buy I'm getting the impression you are starting pretty low, maybe even at level 1. Is that about right?

This would also tell us just where in S&S you will be playing in and might let us give some (spoiler free) pointers along useful lines.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, level 1. Another thing that annoys me.

[BiblioRook]

Yeah, being level 1 is never fun. Thankfully though it's not forever.

Also, since you look like going Magus this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1DB6sOfbAzFmKVPgcyLWipTVqvWFjfDSv6v_YiGQb5 Yw) might be helpful. It even breaks down stat builds for different point-buy amounts.

Also since you aren't getting many skills, two you might want to take in this instance might be Climb and/or Profession (sailor) if you can fit them in addition to whatever else skills you might take.
Do you know if you are going to be allowed the use of Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/skull-shackles)at all? That would make things easier on you.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, afaik everyone gets 2 free traits, and if necessary I could take a feat for extra ones.

I understand that for a magus, one is practically set as Magical Lineage. Any no-brainers for the other one? I was thinking to get an extra class skill, maybe Perception or Acrobatics.

Initial stats for a Tiefling would be something like 10 17 12 18 7 8 -- I wouldnt want to dump Cha to 5.
(The DM said I shouldnt be afraid of having mediocre Con and low Wis, so I might as well take him up on it.)

So that would get me 6 skills per level, which prolly gets me roughly on par with the party Bard.
What worries me a bit is how to defend against CMs like Disarm or Grapple.

[Silus]

This is gonna sound overly complicated, but it works pretty well and you could fluff it however you'd need:

Dawnflower Dervish Bard (keep Strength low as you will be using Dex for EVERYTHING), then multiclass in two levels of Unarmed Fighter (Crane Style and Crane Wing for tankyness) then either go the rest Dervish or mix in some Urban Barbarian for Dex rage with little to no drawback.

Order of operations for combat is:
1: Battle Dance (+2 hit and damage) draw weapon (move and move)
2: Engage enemy, rage for Dex (move and standard/full round + free)
3: Get adjacent to at least two enemies (+1 ac and hit from Barb), fight defensively.

Get stuck in with a scimitar and a buckler and you'll be shockinglt tanky and violent :D

Failing that, go Druid. Can't go wrong with Druid.

[Firechanter]

Okay, that's an interesting build, I'll look into that. ^^ Dawnflower Dervish seems to fit the theme very nicely. Not so sold on Crane Style, though.

BTW: cute avatar =D

(Druid is out; I know it's the faceroll class, but I promised the DM not to make a full caster.)

--

If I stick with the Magus plan (which is taking shape), I'd be inclined to mix in a single level of either (Urban) Barbarian or Gunslinger.

- Urban Barb gives Hit Points (esp at 1st level), Acrobatics, Perception, and a short-term Dex boost, a bit faster BAB and Crowd Control.
- Gunslinger gives Firearm prof, Acrobatics, Perception... and not really much else, since I'd only have 1 Grit Point.

So... I suppose Urban Barb would make more sense. Delaying my casting by 1 level seems bearable... or is it?

[Nihilarian]

Unfortunately the Crane Wing line of feats got nerfed to uselessness.

In general you don't want to multiclass with a magus.

Edit: autocorrect

[Bigbeefie]

I thought the players guide says that gunslinger should not be used in the adventure path. But if u go magus you won't have any problems as they tear through this AP very well.

[Silus]

Unfortunately the Crane Wing line of feats got needed to uselessness.

In general you don't want to multi class with a magus.

I had mentioned this to one of the guys that DMs in my group (He was running a Society game that I wasn't able to make) and he asked to see the errata backing up the change. A short trip to Google produced nothing but forum posts, so he ruled that until he saw a Paizo official errata, the feat would stay as written in the book.

Perhaps the OP's DM would rule the same. Helps to have the book on hand for it anyway.

[Firechanter]

@Bigbeefie: I couldn't find anything in the PG speaking against a Gunnie PC -- the character section basically excludes only Paladins -- but well, it's not my problem anyway.

The group dynamics are a bit unpredictable for me anyway, since the DM and other players have played together before, but so far I only know the DM personally. He states that the other players are rather system-ignorant, and claimed that I could roll a Warrior (yes the NPC class) and still be on par with them.
Here he clearly overestimates my system-savviness of course; I am quite proficient with 3.5, but have very little experience with PF, and all my favourite 3.5 tricks don't even exist anymore in PF.

@Silus: well the problem with Crane style as I see it is that it doesn't help you function as a tank. A tank is someone who can keep the enemy from attacking your squishier allies. A Crane Wing defender poses little to no threat to the enemy, and thus will soon get ignored.

BTW, Unarmed Fighter (according to PRD) only grants you _one_ Style Feat without prereqs. I suppose there's nothing stopping you from directly taking Crane Wing if you want. But if you want both, you will have to fill all the prereqs again, which kinda makes the archetype moot.

[Bigbeefie]

@Bigbeefie: I couldn't find anything in the PG speaking against a Gunnie PC -- the character section basically excludes only Paladins -- but well, it's not my problem anyway.

The group dynamics are a bit unpredictable for me anyway, since the DM and other players have played together before, but so far I only know the DM personally. He states that the other players are rather system-ignorant, and claimed that I could roll a Warrior (yes the NPC class) and still be on par with them.
Here he clearly overestimates my system-savviness of course; I am quite proficient with 3.5, but have very little experience with PF, and all my favorite 3.5 tricks don't even exist anymore in PF.



I use to be that way and switched to strictly pathfinder. I use to be a super cheesy cleric and wizard player in 3.5. I can still pull some nasty cheese in PF as well but I tend not to as Breaking campaigns just becomes no fun. I have played the AP skulls and Shackles and I will be honest it doesn't have many Intense fights unless you pick tough fights. At least not when I played it. You would be fine rolling any class to be honest. I just recommend something that can take and give a blow since the other party members might be lacking in that department. Poisons play a good role in this campaign so I suggest something with a high Fort save. Part of the reason I mentioned a Switch Hitting Ranger with a cool water type Pet. You will do boat to boat combat and having someone who can start combat from their ship is nice and then the ability to switch to melee once the fighting breaks out on deck. A Magus will work well as that is what I took when I ran it I just used Fireballs, scorching ray, and magic missiles for my ranged abilities when broadsiding another ship.

[rollforeigninit]

Have you contemplated an Inquisitor? Spells, Skills, Flavor, DPS. Just food for thought.

[Firechanter]

Have you contemplated an Inquisitor? Spells, Skills, Flavor, DPS. Just food for thought.

Nope, actually not. TBH I absolutely hate the Judgment mechanic, because it's so friggin meta. (Cue Oprah: "You get a Judgment! And you get a Judgment! Everybody gets a Judgment!") And even though that might be refluffed, the class seems a bit weird because the proficiencies point to a Ranged class (which we already got covered with the Gunnie), but the rest of the abilities seem to go better with melee.

But all that aside -- in the past years I played so many Divine characters, now I've thoroughly had enough of that whole "Servant of a God" shtick for a while. ;)

[rollforeigninit]

Nope, actually not. TBH I absolutely hate the Judgment mechanic, because it's so friggin meta. (Cue Oprah: "You get a Judgment! And you get a Judgment! Everybody gets a Judgment!") And even though that might be refluffed, the class seems a bit weird because the proficiencies point to a Ranged class (which we already got covered with the Gunnie), but the rest of the abilities seem to go better with melee.

But all that aside -- in the past years I played so many Divine characters, now I've thoroughly had enough of that whole "Servant of a God" shtick for a while. ;)

Okay. It just seemed to fit your bill as far as magic, non full caster & has skills.

[Firechanter]

Yes, and I appreciate the input. =) I could have said in the beginning that I don't want to play a Divine caster in this game again.

I'd also consider a Full BAB class, Strength-based melee character, but here I find it even more difficult to get by with that stingy PB15. Str 16 and Con 14 - bam, budget depleted!

I was warned that the AP is rather skill-use heavy, so going Fighter and dumping Int may come back to roost -- but at any rate it would make it totally impossible to participate in anything at all outside of combat and Str checks.

Ranger is right out due to MAD.

Barbarian and Int ~8 maybe, for 3 or 4-5 (Human) skill points per level. Heavy Cha Dump required; preserving a modicum of Wis. No race exists that gives bonuses to both Strength and another Physical stat.
The important bit here would be to start with Str 18 and fight two-handed, for something like [D]+9 damage, possibly with a Reach weapon, oneshotting most enemies at level 1 that, for instance, it would take a Magus around 4 hits to whittle down.

My main concern with the Magus is really about surviving the first few levels, when you have very few spells, very low melee damage (Str mod 0), not overly many HP, and apparently can't really rely on anyone else in the party. I also know that the DM loves tossing Poisons and Diseases around, but that just as an aside.

[Nihilarian]

The Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) Fighter Archetype might be good. More skill points and maneuvers can be fun, especially if you fight a lot of humanoids.

[Crustypeanut]

It may have been mentioned already, but:

Ninjas are actually VERY thematically appropriate for this campaign. Why? Well, there so happens to be a colony of Tian-min in the Shackles - a source of both Samurai and Ninjas.

And whats better than a Ninja-Pirate? Or a Pirate-Ninja that hunts Pirates?

:3

[Firechanter]

Oh sorry for almost missing this, I had read the update on my mobile and then forgot to reply later.


The Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) Fighter Archetype might be good. More skill points and maneuvers can be fun, especially if you fight a lot of humanoids.

That Archetype would be perfect, IF it wasn't for the clause that those extra skill points have to be spent on INT skills. That kinda defeats the purpose. I need stuff like Acrobatics, Perception, Intimidate etc., not Knowledge(Philately).

--

As for the Ninja, I dunno, everyone knows that Pirates and Ninjas are mortal enemies. =D

[NightbringerGGZ]

For the Crane Wing Eratta you have to go to the Paizo Ultimate Combat page: Found Here (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8mcz?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate-Combat). You'll find the Eratta link below the main description.

Nobody has really suggested it yet, but why not got with a Barbarian? Since the campaign is low OP you don't really need to have a huge Strength bonus, as even with just a 16 Str you'll have a 20 while Raging. This also gives you a guy who's great at just smashing everything in your way.

How about a Half-Orc, putting your bonus in Str and physical attributes of: Str: 16, Dex: 14 and Con: 12. This would leave you with 3 points to spread among your mental stats, dumping none of them. You could put those points in Cha and go for an Intimidate build (boosting Cha to 14 at level 4) or in Int to gain access to Combat Expertise and Improved Maneuvers.

Since your group isn't optimizing heavily, I would have fun with an Intimidate focused build using Spirit Totem and the Invulnerable Rager archetype.

Feats: Power Attack, Furious Focus, Intimidating Prowess and Cornugon Smash.
Rage Powers: Lesser Spirit Totem, Spirit Totem and Intimidating Glare
Traits: Brute (+2 Bonus to Intimidate), Campaign Trait of your choice.

When you enter combat you are surrounded by dark spirits who lash out at your foes and intercept attacks (20% Concealment combined with DR from your archetype). You hit hard and rarely miss, and your attacks are so frighting that you make free Intimidate checks against those you attack. You can also use a Move action to intimidate an opponent (so 2 Intimidate attempts in one round). On top of that you've got a decent number of skill points to spread around.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, as I wrote a few posts up, Barbarian would currently be my second choice next to Magus.

[Bigbeefie]

Yeah, as I wrote a few posts up, Barbarian would currently be my second choice next to Magus.

No love for the pirate ranger? Has more fluffy good stuff then a roid raged barbarian any day of the week.

[Firechanter]

I'd seriously consider a Ranger if it weren't for that measly PB15. The Ranger is just too MAD for that. There's no good way to swap out your spellcasting for something that doesn't depend on WIS, and I'm not taking a class to ignore one of its main class features.

[Bigbeefie]

I'd seriously consider a Ranger if it weren't for that measly PB15. The Ranger is just too MAD for that. There's no good way to swap out your spellcasting for something that doesn't depend on WIS, and I'm not taking a class to ignore one of its main class features.

You only need a 13 wis since your spells are usually buff type spells. Add a +1 to Wis at 12 and you reach your full spell casting ability. Go dwarf you need to invest 1 point. You can make a solid ranger on 15 point buy. Ive played skulls and shackles and will tell you that you will be fighting alot of humans. Take them your first favored enemy and you will barily notice. Your stats will look like this: 16 str,13 dex,14 con,9 int,13 wis,8 cha. It would be good enough for me considering like 50% of your encounters over the coarse of the campaign will be humans you will be getting big combat boosts through favored enemy. Atleast consider a dip.

[Firechanter]

How is it in PF, technically, would a 12 Wis and a +2 Wis Item do the trick for acquiring level 4 spells?

I gotta admit, I kinda would like to try out the Ranger, and some parts sound really good, so I'm gonna try to make it work. If I don't get it set up in time, I'll fall back to the Magus, but luckily I got the day off tomorrow. ;)

I'd definitely go for a Str build with TH weapon, moderate Dex, mainly TH feats. Maybe a Reach weapon and Combat Reflexes? Gotta figure out whether to take Archery or Two-Handed Style; off the bat it seems to make some sense to take Archery and benefit from skipped prereqs and take the TH feats "manually".

Your proposed stat array doesn't quite check out, I'm getting a PB18 there. However, what should work would be 16 14 12 10 12 7 before racial mods. I guess I won't be winning anyone's hearts and minds, but Cha is the only thing I can dump.

Also, gotta check out if there are any archetypes worth taking, particularly if I can swap out the Pet for anything more useful.

[Bigbeefie]

How is it in PF, technically, would a 12 Wis and a +2 Wis Item do the trick for acquiring level 4 spells?

I gotta admit, I kinda would like to try out the Ranked weapon.

Your proposed stat array doesn't quite check out, I'm getting a PB18 there. However, what should work would be 16 14 12 10 12 7 before racial mods. I guess I won't be winning anyone's hearts and minds, but Cha is the only thing I can dump.

Also, gotta check out if there are any archetypes worth taking, particularly if I can swap out the Pet for anything more useful.

I gave stats for a dwarf ranger 15 point buy after racial. You could go human but those are the only 2 races I recommend.

A star build is what you want. Take your normal feats for 2H and take archery style. Its called the switch hitter. He opens with a bow and after they come to him he swaps to a big 2handed.

[Firechanter]

Yeah I'm gonna go for hoomin. Only real interesting alternative would be Oni-Spawn Tiefling, (+2 Str +2 Wis -2 Cha) but I don't really want to dump my Cha to 5.

Why is it called a "star build"?

[BiblioRook]

Just how far do you see this campaign going? This can be important. As tempting it is to spend your early levels building a foundation for the later levels you don't want to use a grander plan as a reason to hold your character back if you aren't actually going to get to those later levels.

For example, if you are only going to be playing til the end of the first S&S Path book, that will only take you to about level 4.

[Firechanter]

Well it's _planned_ to play the whole thing, so up to level 15/16 or something. Ofc I can't tell how it's gonna pan out.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Skull & Shackles should end around the level 15/16 range. A Swtich-Hitter ranger is actually a really effective way to play and is fun as well. As for a good archetype, how about the Freebooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/freebooter)? :smallsmile:

[Firechanter]

The Freebooter doesn't seem so hot to me; replacing Woodland Stride is fine, but losing several move actions per fight to be a Main Assist probably wouldn't pay off in our party.

I looked over all the Archetypes on PFSRD and didn't find a really good choice. Pet still appears too weak with N-3 levels. Beastmaster only upgrades to Druid progression at level 12. Hippogriff Rider _does_ seem useful, but will probably meet resistance by my DM (and is flavourwise doubtful).

In short, there is very little in the way of Archetypes that trades away things I want to be rid of, and even less that doesn't drop actually useful features at the same time.

[NightbringerGGZ]

The Freebooter doesn't seem so hot to me; replacing Woodland Stride is fine, but losing several move actions per fight to be a Main Assist probably wouldn't pay off in our party.

I looked over all the Archetypes on PFSRD and didn't find a really good choice. Pet still appears too weak with N-3 levels. Beastmaster only upgrades to Druid progression at level 12. Hippogriff Rider _does_ seem useful, but will probably meet resistance by my DM (and is flavourwise doubtful).

In short, there is very little in the way of Archetypes that trades away things I want to be rid of, and even less that doesn't drop actually useful features at the same time.

If you go for a pet, don't forget to pick up the Boon Companion feat, which increases your effective druid level by up to +4 (maxing at your character level). It's an annoying feat tax, but what can you do.

[Firechanter]

Thanks, that's swell. I've been looking for that feat but didn't find it.

edit:
Been meaning to ask: Reach weapon or not?

[Sayt]

Witch Patron is kinda shaky in term of flavour, well okay, extremely, but it does let you gain access to the strength patron, giving you Divine Favour and Power in your spell slots.

Defend Charge is average, but getting to learn non-ranger spells is pretty decent.

[Eldonauran]

I'm currently playing the same campaign, using a Human monk ( racial heritage hobgoblin) to get Ironskin monk, wearing studded leather with armor expert trait. I'll be taking ninja levels soon. Deflect arrows (and thus bullets) has saved my bacon a few times.

I've been holding up fairly well. We have a human barbarian, gnome bard and a sylvan blooded human sorcerer. Between the wand of cure light wounds and infernal healing (we are all neutral), we have no need of a real healer.

[Firechanter]

I've now had first contact with two of the other players. One is playing a Human Cleric (deityless, Defense, Ocean), and the other an Aasimar Bard (Seasinger). Yes you read that right. And actually he had _bugged_ the DM to be allowed to play an Aasimar, even though the Wis bonus is totally useless.
As I talked to him, he realized that a Fetchling would be a much better choice, but the DM wouldn't hear any of it. He has to either stick to his precious Aasi or he can switch to a Core race (which he doesn't want).

But that just as an aside; a little insight into this group's dynamics maybe. At least the Bard player took my advice on spell selection.

BTW, when I sent the DM my Tiefling Magus draft, he apparently got sort of a coughing fit at the sight of my stats (10 17 12 18 7 8) and said he doesn't want to hear any further complaints about PB15. :p

Anyway, I guess it would be sensible to have at least one Strength focused character in the group, so I'm gonna finish the Ranger.

Current draft: Stats (Human) 18 14 12 10 12 7

And I guess I'm gonna take the Freebooter Archetype after all -- I sure hope it's not gonna bite me in the arse later on.

I'm not yet decided on which feat to take - beside Power Attack, of course.

I've seen how highly situational Cleave is, and any feat that the DM can shut down anytime is not a good choice in my book.
Alas, similar things can be said about Reach+Combat Reflexes; as we all know a superior style in 3.5, but I learned that it's easily countered in PF by a single 1st-level feat (Step Up).

And boy, those nerfed-to-death feats really suck. The more I read through the feat trees, the more the whole thing seems to scream "Play a Wizard already!" :smallmad:

[Bigbeefie]

I really like my switch hitter feats to look like this:

1: power attack
1: quick draw
2 Combat style: rapid shot
3: deadly aim
5: boon compainion
6 combat style: many shot
7:
9:
10 combat style: point blank master
11:
13:
14 combat style:
15:

No need for precise or point blank as you quick draw when melee breaks out and with archery style you can skip pre-reqs. Cleave becomes obsolete at level 6. I recommend avoiding if you can. Its great early but then its wasted feat. everthing blank is pretty open. The critical feats are good. Blinding and bleeding are good.

[Firechanter]

I really like my switch hitter feats to look like this:

1: power attack
1: quick draw
2 Combat style: rapid shot
3: deadly aim
5: boon compainion
6 combat style: many shot
7:
9:
10 combat style: point blank master
11:
13:
14 combat style:
15:


Thanks for the input. I'll skip the Cleave then. If I go for Freebooter, that means trading out the Companion, so I don't need that feat either.

Since I won't be able to afford a matching Composite Longbow in the beginning, I might stock up on Chakrams. They are explicitly listed as Ranged weapons and thus should work with Rapid Shot. That would work well with Quick Draw, too.

Might move Deadly Aim a bit back to level 5, and insert Combat Reflexes at 3.
Then maybe Lunge at 7, Improved Crit at 9 and another Crit feat at 11. No need to worry now beyond that, I guess.

As for Combat Style, I just checked and apparently Point Blank Master requires Weapon Focus as prereq, even for the Ranger. Anyway, I think I'd rather take Improved Precise Shot at that level.

Question: Traits. I'm thinking about Magical Knack, and then maybe that campaign trait that gives you Sense Motive in class. Any different suggestions?

[Bigbeefie]

Any feat learned by a ranger from combat style can be taken without meeting pre requires.

Traits as you wish. Though I like taking a saves related one. Lots of fort saves in this campaign. Traits are pure fluff.

I love the companion as its just gravy.

Deadly aim should be moved to 5th level if not taking companion and boon feat. Typical ranger boon is lvl 5 feat.

What ever you choose have fun.

[Firechanter]

In case I don't take the Freebooter archetype, and thus keep the Pet, which one would be good for that campaign? I mean, we won't be fighting _in_ the water _that_ often (I hope), but either way, a Shark doesn't seem that hot.

[Bigbeefie]

In case I don't take the Freebooter archetype, and thus keep the Pet, which one would be good for that campaign? I mean, we won't be fighting _in_ the water _that_ often (I hope), but either way, a Shark doesn't seem that hot.

Lol....Hard to imagine a Pirate "pet"......I find it abit easier.

Good animal COmpanions for this campaign are:

Crocodile, Roc, Ape, Dire Bat, Birds, Giant Crab, Giant Frog, Giant Gecko, Hippopotamus, Giant Mantis, Monitor Lizard, Giant Scorpion, Snapping Turtle, Any snake, Giant Toad, Tortoise, Walrus, Giant Wasp

Most animal companions can be found here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions

My recommendations would Be: Crocodile, Giant Frog, Giant Mantis, or Roc.

Crocodile gets Death roll ability and is awesome Grappler. (Imagine if you will a noodle armed pirate Bard/caster trying to get out of his mouth as he is being rolled around on deck making his concentration checks near impossible to cast a spell.)

Giant Frog gets a Sticky tongue reach attack, Swallow Whole, and Swim speed. (In-vision 2 legs and a pair of Boots hanging out his mouth and a **** eating grin.)

Giant Mantis Get a Climb, Land, and Fly movement speeds, LUNGE 2 claws w/grab, and Bite attack, and Sudden strike (allows full attack in surprise round) Also has darkvision.

Roc get: 2 talons w/ grab, Bite, low-light vision, Very good fly speed, and a BIG Natural armor boost. Basically is a flying Tank. (In-vision a Huge Roc grabbing Pirates off their boat and throwing them into the sea. and offering fly by attacks)


My personal 2 favorites are the Crocodile for dealing with casters and non Full BaB types via Death rolling and keeping them locked down. And the Mantis because he is just freaking sweet. The Frog is awesome for this campaign but in other campaigns the swallow whole doesn't work much because you fight Huge creatures....in this you will be fighting a lot of Medium sized creatures Which you will get more mileage out of these creatures in this campaign.

[Firechanter]

Alright, started the campaign today! Got as far as the capture of another ship, then called it a day.

First off: the Switch Hitter Ranger was a good idea. My character performed _very_ well. There actually was also a pure Fighter in the group; in combat he was only marginally better than me, but totally useless out of combat (as is normal for Fighters), whereas I was always useful with my sweet skills.

However, I didn't get around to do a single Ranged attack.

Funny note aside; I swapped out one of my traits last-minute to get Diplomacy in class, because our Bard player couldn't make it. And so my Cha 7 Ranger was the best diplomat of the group, because nobody else had spent a second thought on skills. oÔ

The DM also said he would agree to houserule the Cleave chain by nixing the limitation that it could only be used on enemies adjacent to each other. So under that regimen, you could actually cleave any enemy you threaten.
I'm thinking this might be a sweet deal, especially in combination with Lunge. What do you think? Should I work it in?

[Bigbeefie]

Yeah welcome to the switch hitter lol. Your whole campaign will be like that. You will own this campaign for sure.

As far as a cleave change...it might make it useful. Still i wouldn't neglect quick draw as it is a huge action economy boost when swapping weapons. If you ever do decide to draw your bow. You will be getting plenty of chances tho.

What did you take as first FE?

About Diplomacy....its an ok skill....someone needs it and it adds a little flavor since your already kinda Optimized for killing things quickly and have combat handled. Seems fine as you wont miss the trait. A trait is about half a feat...you traded half a feat for some Social skill. This campaign you will get opportunity to use it a lot.

[Firechanter]

Oh I do have Quick Draw, taken at level 1 as you suggested. I guess I'd be allowed to swap it out, but it does seem to be useful.

Normally I would have taken Humans as FE, but since I eventually took the Freebooter archetype after all, I traded the FE ability versus a way to "mark" targets.

[Bigbeefie]

Oh I do have Quick Draw, taken at level 1 as you suggested. I guess I'd be allowed to swap it out, but it does seem to be useful.

Normally I would have taken Humans as FE, but since I eventually took the Freebooter archetype after all, I traded the FE ability versus a way to "mark" targets.

That Archetype isn't a bad one. I actually Kind of like it as it is a UN- Typed bonus. It can stack with all other buff like it. Trades off the companion but gives the entire group a buff.

I'd invest in a human bane weapon as your first enchant on one of your 2 weapons. Cheap and will come into play A lot this campaign. Look at all your human suppressors. The captain and his lackeys....a lot of ships are just as similar.

well You could defiantly take cleave at 3rd and pick up deadly aim at 5th. With the rework to cleave anyone in reach makes it more useful then the original. You would be cleaving your way to victory in melee.

As for lunge....its up to you man. After level 6 you efficiently have all your necessary Feats to do solid damage regardless the range you are at. So really Normal feats Lvl 7+ are all up to you and what you think will help you the most the rest of the Adventure path. I like 7th Vital strike, 9th Critical Focus, 11th Improved Vital strike, 13th Bleeding Critical, 15th Blinding Critical....(all those feats work on both Bow and Melee weapon)
But that's just me focusing on doing damage with each action. If you find lunge to be the better option for your style then by all means take it at 7th. Its entirely up to you.

[Nihilarian]

Well, it still requires a standard action, so it can't be used in a full attack. Could double your damage whenever you can't make a full attack.

If your DM allows it, the Path of War (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308912) supplement has a feat that would allow you to sheathe a weapon as a free action. It's by the guys who converted psionics to Pathfinder.

[Bigbeefie]

Well, it still requires a standard action, so it can't be used in a full attack. Could double your damage whenever you can't make a full attack.

If your DM allows it, the Path of War (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308912) supplement has a feat that would allow you to sheathe a weapon as a free action. It's by the guys who converted psionics to Pathfinder.

Vital strike is for that reason only. The thing that makes 2 handed warriors hurt is when they don't get to full attack....it happens as sometimes you have to move 20 feet to close on someone currently in melee. Vital strike makes sure you kind of get all your attacks for the standard action since your missing your Full attack. But it also works for bows in the same manner but sadly you can not keep up with a full attack from a bow as many+rapid shot kinda push the numbers of arrow attacks up. Lastly you can crit a vital strike....Crit your Falch and you basically will get BIG numbers. So basically his DPR just stays higher with the vital strike line as a skirmisher. But those are my thoughts on the feat line.

The critical feats will end up working on both Melee and ranged weapons. If he is using a Keened Falch then he will crit about 1 out of every 4 attacks. With his bow not as much but if it does crit then bonus.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, unfortunately the DM won't allow PoW or any 3rd Party material, already asked. If he did, I'd have rolled a Warlord. Really would love to try out that class. He's not even primarily concerned about power issues, he just wouldn't have the time to read up on new stuff.

The idea behind Lunge in combination with Great Cleave would be... imagine all the squares you threaten! In combination with a Reach weapon, you'd threaten at 10 and 15', for a total of 36 squares, if I'm not mistaken. Sure, all those bases will never be loaded, but even if "just" 3-4 enemies are in reach, your output will be better than a full attack -- though ofc you're spreading out the damage instead of quickly taking down the attackers one by one, but then again, teammates are a thing.

Question: can composite bows get their Str bonus upgraded successively? Cuz ofc my Str bonus will change pretty often, from 18 at 1st level to ~26 at 12th, and having to sell the old bow at half price every time would really cripple my WBL.

[Bigbeefie]

The idea behind Lunge in combination with Great Cleave would be... imagine all the squares you threaten! In combination with a Reach weapon, you'd threaten at 10 and 15', for a total of 36 squares, if I'm not mistaken. Sure, all those bases will never be loaded, but even if "just" 3-4 enemies are in reach, your output will be better than a full attack -- though ofc you're spreading out the damage instead of quickly taking down the attackers one by one, but then again, teammates are a thing.

Question: can composite bows get their Str bonus upgraded successively? Cuz ofc my Str bonus will change pretty often, from 18 at 1st level to ~26 at 12th, and having to sell the old bow at half price every time would really cripple my WBL.

About the Bow: I look at it like a real life bow. I can take my compound down and have them adjust the draw weight from 50lbs to 70lbs...I can Also have them reduce it. I have not seen any where in the rule books about the exact question but I take it as you can adjust the str modifier by spending 100g to take it up or down 1 modifier. That is how my group does it. There is also a Adaptive enchant for +1000g It adjusts to the current wielders current modifier. So if you get enlarged or something it adjusts to your new str.

the original thing is yes if you can hit lots of Mooks then go for it if you can rely on your team to focus one down after your sweeping blows. If your team mates seem unreliable at damaging them then you might wanna focus down on enemies. You will get a good judgement of your teams capiablites as you gain levels. Take cleave but hold off on greater cleave and lunge till 7+ and see what kind of strategy will work best with the group. Your group is in its infant stage where the STR based characters are glorious. Once casters come into power around 7th level then see what you guys want to do as your generic battle plan.

[Firechanter]

Well, I doubt D&D/PF bows will be Compound bows (whose working principle is not the spring but the pulley), but IRL you can also adjust a traditional bow's draw. Make it lighter by slimming the limbs, make it heavier by shortening the limbs. Of course both methods will only go so far, but it is possible.

"Adaptive" however sounds like just the thing. So I'm gonna try and get a +1 Adaptive Human-Bane Composite Longbow when there's enough cash in the box; sounds grand.

Thanks for the advice, sounds very reasonable. The important thing is that I have a shortlist of feats and can pick the most appropriate one as we go. ^^

[Bigbeefie]

Yup sound like its all worked out now. Enjoy the fun you will be having making the fighter jealous of all your versatility and skills. See you around the forums.