Tiered Gestalt Rules

[Nemquae]

As a player I enjoy going against the grain, but as a game master I know why the wood grows that way. After several years of pushing the boundaries of roleplaying, optimization, and complexity, I feel like I can finally see the forest for the trees: options, and a player's ability to make the most of those options, are what fundamentally determine how a game takes on a life of its own.

Most players of D&D 3/3.5 and Pathfinder understand this intuitively, but it didn't occur to me how different, cross-cutting concerns within the system really come down to the scope and scale of what material is available. As Pathfinder grows larger and builds upon the wealth of 3.5 material out there, I feel like it's becoming more and more necessary to manage what options are available, intelligently. Most game masters I've encountered use an ad-hoc solution by banning options based on their personal judgement of fairness, etc., but I've never met one that tried to really leverage the balance consensus from the community at large.

What I'm about to propose isn't a system for beginners of D&D or Pathfinder, or even necessarily for players and game masters of intermediate skill. Instead, it's a way for a party of intermediate to advanced players to play very nearly any type of character they would like without raising too many balance concerns. It's a fairly complex modification of the character creation/levelling process, but ultimately it's far less complex than banning every problematic option, or homebrewing a new class for every character. The end result are characters which are more powerful and more varied than most, capable of engaging in far richer storylines without fudging or pulling any punches (on the part of the GM, especially).

How it Works

We assume that you're familiar with the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) and that therefore, you know that your choice of class primarily determines the quality and quantity of options available to you. Controversial options, such as the Gestalt rules from Unearthed Arcana or the Leadership feat, can potentially double your total choices by effectively giving you access to the benefits of additional classes or characters. Given this, it's fair for most Game Masters to ban them, but it is also true that by doing so, they eliminate some fair and fun character builds (especially with respect to lower tier classes). The main innovation here, which I've seen referenced elsewhere but never so clearly stated, is:

The Gestalt rules and other "Option Multipliers" made a available to a character are in proportion to the highest tiered class that character possesses.

To apply this idea, we first choose our primary class, then what option multipliers will be available to us (if any) and what their limitations will be (if any). The thinking is that since lower tier classes have orders of magnitude fewer options available to them, allowing you to combine them helps to mitigate this discrepancy (even if it never fully overcomes it). I feel like this is preferable to forcing all players to select classes from 1 or 2 tiers, or to disallowing option multipliers for low tier classes which would be nearly unplayable without them.

Tiered Gestalt Basics


Acces to all 1st and 2nd Party materials for D&D 3/3.5 and Pathfinder (updated to Pathfinder rules).
Access to 3rd Party / Homebrew materials on a case-by-case basis (favoring fluff over crunch).
No infinite combos. Anything potentially infinite stops after the first step in the chain.
Gestalt rules from Unearthed Arcana, the Leadership feat, the Symbiotic template, and other options which effectively double (or more) a player's options are called Option Multipliers.
Option Multipliers are available depending on the highest tier class the character posses.
Classes between tiers get some leeway, either by intentionally limiting options or by progressing the class half-way or less.
Monstrous races and templates are allowed, but Level Adjustment (w/o LA buyoff) should be considered as a likely adjustment to the tier of your main class.
Dragon, Outsider, and Aberration racial hit dice are tier 5, all others are tier 6.



The following lists the option multipliers in more detail (I'll add to this list over time). Each multiplier has specific limitations which may or may not come into play, as will be explained later. Greater Option Multipliers give players access to new class features and in some cases more actions per round. Lesser Option Multipliers give players more of what they already have without giving them more actions.

Greater Option Multipliers


Gestalt rules from Unearthed Arcana (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm). The restrictions on dual-advancement prestige classes (either on the same side of your gestalt or one prestige class on both sides of your gestalt) count as the limitation for this option multiplier. Note that, for the purposes of this limitation, level-adjusted templates, template-classes, races, or racial progressions count as prestige classes.
Leadership Feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/leadership---final). Players with this option multiplier can choose to either have their selection of cohorts determined by the Game Master, or they can apply the limitation for gestalt rules above, treating the cohort like the other side of their gestalt. This may prevent otherwise willing cohorts from following them.
The Symbiotic Template from Savage Species. Players with this option can choose to either have their selection of hosts determined by the Game Master, or they can apply the limitation for gestalt rules above, treating the host like the other side of their gestalt. This may prevent symbiosis with an otherwise suitable host.
Fusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm) and similar powers/effects. Since this option comes in much later and it can potentially be (ab)used with allies of equal or greater level/HD, the main limitation is that Fusion may only target a creature of lower level/HD than the manifester. If the effect is made permanent somehow (or it has permanent effects), then something similar to the above options also applies.



Lesser Option Multipliers


Double Wealth. The character receives inheritance or some other financial boon, automatically receiving (in total) their WBL each level they gain in addition to their conventional acquired wealth from adventuring. The limitation for this option multiplier is that they may not spend more than half of their wealth on any one purchase, and that at least one-third of their inherited/extra wealth must be applied toward a home/estate of some kind.
Double Feats. Each time the character receives a feat, he or she may choose to gain an additional feat of the same type and subject to the same limitations. For example, a fighter would receive bonus General Feats, as well as bonus Combat Feats based on his or her level. A character with this option multiplier and subject to a limitation does not double his or her first level feats, and may not use a feat to qualify for another feat's prerequisites if they were both gained on the same level. Never double feats gained from flaws.
Double Skill, Ability, and Hit Points. Each time the character receives a skill point, hit point, or gains an opportunity to raise an ability score (after initial character creation), he or she may choose to gain an additional point of the same type and subject to the same limitations. For example, a fighter might receive 4 skill points, 2d10 hit points, and a two +1 increases to an ability score based on his or her level. A character with this option multiplier and subject to a limitation does not double any skill points or hit points gained because of a high ability score, nor may he or she increase the same ability score on the same level.



The list below details which option multipliers are available given a character's highest tier class. It also notes when the limitations given above are applied, and if there are any additional limitations (usually no +2 tier prestige classes). When Greater Option Multipliers are potentially involved, we refer to other classes (for your cohort, host, etc.) by their tier.

Option Multipliers available by Highest Tier Class (choose A or B from given Tier)


A: Single-Classed (no Option Multipliers) as above.
B: One Lesser Option Multiplier with all limitations and no +2 tier prestige classes.
-
A: One Greater Option Multiplier with tier 2 class(es) with all limitations and no +2 tier prestige classes.
B: One Greater Option Multiplier with lower tier class(es) or one Lesser Option Multiplier, with all limitations.
-
A: One Greater Option Multiplier with tier 3 class(es) or one Lesser Option Multiplier, with no limitations.
B: Two Option Multipliers with one or two lower tier classes, with no +2 tier prestigue classes, choosing one limitation from your two option multipliers.
-
A: Two Option Multipliers with one tier 4 class and up to one lower tier class, with all limitations.
B: Two Option Multipliers with one or two lower tier classes, choosing one limitation from your two option multipliers.
-
A: Two Option Multipliers with one tier 5 class and up to one lower tier class, with no limitations.
B: Three Option Multipliers with up to two lower tier classes, choosing one limitation from your three option multipliers.
-
A: Three Option Multipliers with up to two tier 6 classes, with no limitations.
B: One Greater Option Multiplier with tier 6 class(es) and three Lesser Option Multipliers, choosing one limitation from your four option multipliers.



So the general idea is that you could choose to play a highly optimized Tier 1 class (but without access to leadership, fusion, or other Option Multipliers) and not completely out-shine your friend who chooses to play a highly optimized gestalt character with Tier 3 classes on either side. Got a crazy number of templates you'd like to stack on the same character? I'd probably consider most templates in the Tier 5 or 6 range (or to move a given class up one tier at most), so gestalt with a tier 3 class or even tristalt with some lower classes and go to town. People have suggested changes to the LA system before, but I feel like this is an easier solution.

Combinations of lower tier classes might never knock a character up a tier, but at least by eliminating Option Multipliers from higher tiers and giving them to lower tiers we can help to close the gap for more practical play. Any way you'd improve on this?

[Erberor]

I think that you've really written this up well. It feels short, concise, and yet very informative. Excellent job explaining what may otherwise be a very complex system.

Speaking of the system, it's well thought out and elegant. Great job there too.

Maybe adding in a few lesser option multipliers may be good, but I've got nothing on that one.

[Nemquae]

I think that you've really written this up well. It feels short, concise, and yet very informative. Excellent job explaining what may otherwise be a very complex system.

Speaking of the system, it's well thought out and elegant. Great job there too.

Maybe adding in a few lesser option multipliers may be good, but I've got nothing on that one.

Thanks! Can't respond fully right now, but I've had some ideas for other option multipliers. Still no clue what happens when you jump tiers mid-game though.

[slowplay]

This sounds great, but i'm not sure I get it.

Nemquae, could you give an example of how a tier 2 and a tier 3 gestalt would work with this and maybe a lesser option multiplier or two, please?

[Anachronity]

Doubling skill points is an option multiplier. Doubling ability scores and hitpoints isn't an option multiplier (except maybe for a MAD or low-hp class, respectively), it's just a power increase.

Double wealth would be potentially game-breaking, since magic items rival casters in power. Additionally I see nothing stopping the character from giving that money to a high-tier ally.

Double feats is just weird... It lets you get things which shouldn't be available until later. For example a kitsune could spam the magical tails feat for high-level SLA's by 7th level, and other characters could get heritage feats to similar effect. It would balance out in the long run, but at early/mid levels you would get crazy power jumps.

The greater options are pretty much all fine.

I'm not sure I understand your "Option Multipliers available by Highest Tier Class" list, but how does it account for multiclassing? Suppose I try to go Eldritch Knight with some fighter levels, leaving me less powerful than a full caster. Does your system account for this?

Frankly I think the best choice is to simply treat gestalts as classes. Any tier 3 with any tier 6 is a class, and any tier 4 with any tier 5 is a class. If you multiclass out of that then the new class must be a legal gestalt or else it is only a single class. It's much simpler and has fewer potential exploits.

[Nemquae]

Doubling skill points is an option multiplier. Doubling ability scores and hitpoints isn't an option multiplier (except maybe for a MAD or low-hp class, respectively), it's just a power increase.

I think it depends on play style. Notice that the MAD classes tend to be lower tier than their SAD bretheren, largely because of the division of resources. The tank role is one of the hardest roles to play for lower-tier classes, again because ideally you'd have class features from the Knight, Crusader, and Incarnate (just to name a few base classes). Consider the interactions between a Crusader's delayed damage pool, the Stone Power feat, and various means of gaining temporary hit points - with more base hitpoints, the viability of all these options improves. I'd argue that taken together with the above, options overall double.


Double wealth would be potentially game-breaking, since magic items rival casters in power. Additionally I see nothing stopping the character from giving that money to a high-tier ally.

Yeah I agree, I'm considering moving it up to be a Greater Option Multiplier with a limitation that you can't share it. Maybe it's wrapped up in a family heirloom or something. Otherwise players would be incentivized to steal/bequeath wealth.


Double feats is just weird... It lets you get things which shouldn't be available until later. For example a kitsune could spam the magical tails feat for high-level SLA's by 7th level, and other characters could get heritage feats to similar effect. It would balance out in the long run, but at early/mid levels you would get crazy power jumps.

Yeah, this is true, but that's ok in my opinion. For some context, I started thinking about these rules as an alternative for a gestalt e6 game that I've been running. In games like that, extra feats are the norm and setting up chains at lower levels is pretty standard. Since feats are usually inferior to class features (like higher level spells), this doesn't get out of hand. For the Kitsune Magical Tail exploit in particular, you could argue that since each time you take the feat its effects depend on the number of times you've taken it in the past, this is a form of a prerequisite, so while under the limitation above you'd still receive the high-level SLAs at about the same level as a normal kitsune character (about 12th level I believe). Still early, but not too powerful compared to a more versatile spell list. Most builds suffer from feat taxes that further delay this progression in any practical optimization exercise.

Also consider the Dimensional Dervish, et al. The feats seem designed for the Monk, but by the time he qualifies they're largely irrelevant. Gestalting a Monk with a Totemist allows earlier access to the feats via the Blink Shirt soulmeld (or Summoner if you want to stick to pathfinder). And with the extra versatility from the Totemist/SUmmoner and extra feats, you can actually do something other than just straight damage against all those enemies - perhaps some crowd control.


I'm not sure I understand your "Option Multipliers available by Highest Tier Class" list, but how does it account for multiclassing? Suppose I try to go Eldritch Knight with some fighter levels, leaving me less powerful than a full caster. Does your system account for this?

Yes, I should edit it to make that clearer. If you want something of a gish, you have two options:

1) Choose a Greater Option Multiplier like gestalt, and take fighter and spellcaster levels on either side. Since the spellcaster is typically your higher-tier class, use that to determine which tier you fall under above. You'll probably end up with one of the B options, since fighter types are usually strictly lower-tier classes.

2) Multiclass between a fighter and a spellcasting class. If half or more of your levels are in the spellcasting class (or are advanced by a prestige class like Eldritch Knight), then you count as the normal tier for your spellcasting class and use that to determine where you fall above. However, if less than half of your levels are in the spellcasting class, you should consider it a tier lower than normal when placing it, allowing you to pick up more benefits.

So for example, if you wanted to be a Sorcerer/Fighter gish, you'd fall somewhere between tier 2 and tier 3 depending on how many levels of Sorcerer you have (or have progressed via Eldritch Knight). If you go Sorcerer-heavy, you'd probably want to choose 2.B from the table to benefit from Gestalt and just forgo Eldritch Knight (since it would logically count as a dual-progression prestige class for fighters/spellcasters and thus be subject to the limitation). On the other hand, if you go Fighter-heavy, pick Gestalt and Leadership as your Greater Option Multipliers, with the limitations applying only to leadership. This would allow you to multiclass between Sorcerer and Fighter, progress both with Eldritch Knight, pick up a Healer or Marshal cohort for support, and still have the other half of your gestalt to play with. You lose those higher levels spells and extra spell slots, but you pick up effectively two tier 4 or lower classes worth of features for you trouble.


Frankly I think the best choice is to simply treat gestalts as classes. Any tier 3 with any tier 6 is a class, and any tier 4 with any tier 5 is a class. If you multiclass out of that then the new class must be a legal gestalt or else it is only a single class. It's much simpler and has fewer potential exploits.

That is simpler, but I don't think it address the core problem. If you gestalt a Warblade (tier 3) with a Warrior (tier 6), you literally gain nothing over a straight Warblade. Being a bit more creative, a Factotum (tier 3) and a Truenamer (tier 6 w/o Item Familiar or Exemplar) gestalt would get some extra utility in the early levels from his utterances/incantations and a higher will save, but at higher levels he'd be nearly identical to a straight Factotum, except that when he's lucky he can Gate in some creatures a few times per day. Such a character would be stronger, yes, but not nearly as strong as, say, a Wizard, or even a Sorcerer who could both do that and more with a practical level of optimization. A warblade | factotum gestalt, however, would be much more comparable to a tier 2 or even a tier 1 class with enough optimization. I don't think any amount of optimization will bring a tier 3 class up to par with a tier 1 class unless you straight up double the options available (even then, it's hard to see it getting above tier 2).

Thanks for being frank though - in the past I've tried to settle for the simpler solutions and found them wanting. I'll keep trying to work out the kinks in this system.

[Nemquae]

This sounds great, but i'm not sure I get it.

Nemquae, could you give an example of how a tier 2 and a tier 3 gestalt would work with this and maybe a lesser option multiplier or two, please?

Sure. I'll start with 2.A in the table and compare that to 3.A.

Suppose that you'd really like to play a Binder with all vestiges available, including the ones from Dragon Magazine and the online vestiges like Zceryll. Looking up on the Tier System for classes you see that such a Binder is effectively tier 2. That means you've got a choice of 2.A or 2.B from the table, so long as half or more of your levels are in Binder, something that progresses Binder, or some similar set of other tier 2 classes (for example, if you multiclassed with Sorcerer).

Looking at the two options and assuming that you want to use gestalt as your Greater Option Multiplier, the main difference between A and B is the tradeoff between using another tier 2 class on the other side of your gestalt and access to a +2 tier prestige class. Either way, you suffer the limitation of the gestalt option multiplier, so you can't take any dual-progression prestige classes or advance prestige classes on both sides of your gestalt at the same time.

Looking at the tier system for PrCs, we can see that the only +2 tier PrC for Binders is the Anima Mage, which is a dual-progression PrC for spellcasters and Binders. Given that, we wouldn't have access to it in either case, since the limitation for gestalt applies to both 2.A and 2.B. So we decide to go with 2.A and take another tier 2 class on the other side of our gestalt. Let's go with Sorcerer. As a Binder/Sorcerer gestalt, we can still aim for Knight of the Sacred Seal and Malconvoker for our prestige classes as long as we don't progress both in the same level, with the end result being a flavorful summoner of spirits from the beyond. Alternatively we can swap out the Sorcerer levels with the Pathfinder Summoner for another juicy combination.

Now let's consider a tier 3 gestalt. If what we're really interested in is the ability to bind to spirits, not necessarily summoning creatures, with some spellcasting, then we could focus on a Binder | Occultist gestalt. The Occultist is basically the pathfinder version of the Binder, and most people place it in tier 3. Without access to Zceryll, the Binder also drops to tier 3, so we can choose 3.A from the table. Since it says there are no limitations, we can now benefit from a dual-progression PrC like Anima Mage even while gestalting, and there's no restrictions on +2 tier PrCs either, so we figure we should go for that. This would allow us to multiclass Bard and qualify for Anima Mage (perhaps with a few feats for early entry), giving us nice cover as a performer since Binders are persecuted by the fluff. The Occultist gives even more versatility in the same vein as the Binder, and we can take prestige classes for it at the same time as Anima Mage, so potentially we're very potent.

Ultimately the choice of 2.A or 3.A, in this case, depends on whether you prefer the fluff/crunch of a summoning-focused Binder or a more straight-forward pact-making Binder with some traditional spellcasting. Other options are equally viable, like by choosing 3.B and building a more traditional Binder | Hellfire Warlock with a cult following (via Leadership). And really that's the point: to make many different builds equally viable, even when your highest effective tier is pretty low.

Hope this helps. I'll add it to the main post when I've cleaned it up.