Action economy and single enemy encounters

[Powerfamiliar]

Fights against a single enemy tend to be underwhelming due to the action economy advantage the party has when fighting only one enemy. As a DM I usually just avoid solo encounters, but currently I want to end a side quest with a Chimera boss fight. Would you as players be ok fighting monsters that broke the action economy. Let's say the chimera acted 2 or 3 times per round (with an appropriate CR increase). I know 4e tried something similar, but I'm unsure one how well if worked out there.

[Blackhawk748]

You could just have it drink a potion of Haste, which would legally give it and extra action.

[Rubik]

You could just have it drink a potion of Haste, which would legally give it and extra action.Not in 3.5. This was true for 3.0, however.

What about giving enemies levels in psion with powers to let him FUBAR the action economy?

[Azoth]

There is the feat Heroic Surge from Age of Mortals pg50. 1/day per 4lvls/hd gain an extra standard action useable 1/round max.

Travel devotion/chronocharm of the horizon walker to get a swift action movement.

Belt of Battle is always fun.

You could rule that it has schism x/day that affects each of its "lesser" heads. This allows the main body/head to go beat down/breath weaponing the party while the other heads can ready/hold actions to manifest powers. This works great with the Phrenic template.

Also make them fight in its lair where terrain favors it to offset action economy. Tons of colums, rises, uneaven flooring, dense brush to use as cover. Have it open with full breath weapon barrage and the feat Entangling Exhalation and flyby attack. Make them entangled and have the chimera kite the party until it has weakened them using the terrain to block LOE to it, once they are thoroughly beat have it charge someone on ground level to start the "real" fight.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

You could just have it drink a potion of Haste, which would legally give it and extra action.

To quote OotS 49 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html):


"Haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm)?"

"Sucks now."

Haste no longer gives an extra action (unless you take levels in Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)).

You might try giving your baddies any of the various means of breaking the action economy - travel devotion and belt of battle are pretty easy to tack on.

Edit: Swordsage'd

Also, adding levels of Psion would work, yes, but it also brings with it a whole suite of abilities which may lead to some unintended consequences.

White Raven Tactics is another way to grant an ally (and you count as an ally of yourself) an additional go. Basically trades your Swift for a second Standard, Move, and Swift, which is pretty fantastic.

Alternatively, you could think about giving certain enemies the Chronotyryn's Dual Actions ability (Fiend Folio, pg. 33).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Fights against a single enemy tend to be underwhelming due to the action economy advantage the party has when fighting only one enemy. As a DM I usually just avoid solo encounters, but currently I want to end a side quest with a Chimera boss fight. Would you as players be ok fighting monsters that broke the action economy. Let's say the chimera acted 2 or 3 times per round (with an appropriate CR increase). I know 4e tried something similar, but I'm unsure one how well if worked out there.
Since I do that all the time as a DM, yeah, go for it. I've always just explained to players at the start of the campaign "this is what I do, it helps make fights challenging without turning them into rocket tag," and I've yet to see someone complain. (Unlike online. Much as I love the community here, godDAMN do people love to complain about verisimilitude)

[nedz]

If you give the single enemy lots of battle field control effects then that should slow the party down and make it hard for them to bring their numbers to bear. It might make it quite a frustrating fight though.

[Maginomicon]

@OP If you're worried about rocket tag, you might want to look at Save Points (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306961).

[Powerfamiliar]

Since I do that all the time as a DM, yeah, go for it. I've always just explained to players at the start of the campaign "this is what I do, it helps make fights challenging without turning them into rocket tag," and I've yet to see someone complain. (Unlike online. Much as I love the community here, godDAMN do people love to complain about verisimilitude)

I love fiat to keep things simple, but I am wary of changing the rules in favor of monsters that much. I can't see ever doing it for NPCs because of verisimilitude it would only be for monster types.

I am very afraid of rocket tag. 3.5 is such a deadly game, having a monster potentially full attack twice before the party gets to react would be game over. If I do give monsters extra actions I think I would have to limit it to prohibit full round actions.

[Blackhawk748]

Ive given several monsters an extra standard action in a round, it hasnt killed anyone in my party yet.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I love fiat to keep things simple, but I am wary of changing the rules in favor of monsters that much. I can't see ever doing it for NPCs because of verisimilitude it would only be for monster types.

I am very afraid of rocket tag. 3.5 is such a deadly game, having a monster potentially full attack twice before the party gets to react would be game over. If I do give monsters extra actions I think I would have to limit it to prohibit full round actions.
I don't mean turn-turn-PCs. Rather, give him a second turn at his initiative count -10 or something. He goes, a few PCs go, he goes, the rest of the PCs go, and the combat continues.

[ChaoticDitz]

I don't mean turn-turn-PCs. Rather, give him a second turn at his initiative count -10 or something. He goes, a few PCs go, he goes, the rest of the PCs go, and the combat continues.

Even this has some issues, though, as I don't find it particularly fair if the chimera or whatever gets to full attack me, my wizard friend blasts the chimera and my Barbarian friend slashes the chimera, and then the chimera full attacks me again before I get to act. But it seems like a good start to an idea.

[DJroboninja]

In my Pathfinder games, I try to allow big solo critters to have multiple initiative counts - they get a move action and a standard action (or a full-round action) on their first initiative count, then a standard action on any following initiative counts. So with the Chimera example, you could have the initiative come out as:

PC 1
Lion Head (standard/move)
PC 2
PC 3
Goat Head (standard)
PC 4
Dragon Head (standard)
(Rinse, Repeat)

It has worked great and has made single creature fights more fun and more epic. I love running dragons this way, with different body parts acting at different times (head, claws, tail, etc). If you go into it saying "I give single monsters extra initiative counts" to the players, I don't foresee them being against it.

[Rubik]

In my Pathfinder games, I try to allow big solo critters to have multiple initiative counts - they get a move action and a standard action (or a full-round action) on their first initiative count, then a standard action on any following initiative counts. So with the Chimera example, you could have the initiative come out as:

PC 1
Lion Head (standard/move)
PC 2
PC 3
Goat Head (standard)
PC 4
Dragon Head (standard)
(Rinse, Repeat)

It has worked great and has made single creature fights more fun and more epic. I love running dragons this way, with different body parts acting at different times (head, claws, tail, etc). If you go into it saying "I give single monsters extra initiative counts" to the players, I don't foresee them being against it.Fun for magic users, initiators, and hydras of all kinds!

[ChaoticDitz]

In my Pathfinder games, I try to allow big solo critters to have multiple initiative counts - they get a move action and a standard action (or a full-round action) on their first initiative count, then a standard action on any following initiative counts. So with the Chimera example, you could have the initiative come out as:

PC 1
Lion Head (standard/move)
PC 2
PC 3
Goat Head (standard)
PC 4
Dragon Head (standard)
(Rinse, Repeat)

It has worked great and has made single creature fights more fun and more epic. I love running dragons this way, with different body parts acting at different times (head, claws, tail, etc). If you go into it saying "I give single monsters extra initiative counts" to the players, I don't foresee them being against it.

How do full attacks using multiple body parts work in this method?

[Rubik]

How do full attacks using multiple body parts work in this method?And how does it work with creatures who have multiple actions anyway, and who can already manipulate the action economy?

[DJroboninja]

How do full attacks using multiple body parts work in this method?

With a dragon, for example, they get one attack with each body part at the applicable initiative count (one claw attack at claw initiative, one wing attack at wings initiative), or multiple attacks if they don't move on the first initiative count (two claw attacks on claw initiative, two wing attacks on wing initiative). Adds a little extra bookkeeping, but it's worked well for us so far.

[DJroboninja]

And how does it work with creatures who have multiple actions anyway, and who can already manipulate the action economy?

I would probably just run creatures of this kind as written.

[ChaoticDitz]

And how does it work with creatures who have multiple actions anyway, and who can already manipulate the action economy?

I'm pretty sure he uses these rules case-by-case, not just for all solo bosses, so if they're already manipulating the action economy, he won't use these rules. Simple enough; you can do stuff like that with homebrew.

EDIT: Celerity-sage'd.

[Rubik]

And how about mounted combat? That's already an adjudication nightmare.

[DJroboninja]

And how about mounted combat? That's already an adjudication nightmare.

Hmmmm, hasn't come up but I would probably just run it normal. Or possibly just treat the rider as one of the secondary initiative counts -- imagine an archer riding a creature with multiple attacks, you could treat them as a single creature and break them down as:

Bite attack
Claw attack
Tail attack
Rider attack

As I said though, haven't actually tried this scenario (though tbh I kind of want to now).

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I don't see anything wrong with just giving the bosses extra actions, but if you're nervous I can think of a few ways around it.

First - just to be clear - why do you want to have solo bosses? I can think of a few reasons, but which one you have might make a big difference.

My instinct is that, if there's an enemy that's gonna be fighting the party solo, you should play them as an underdog, and somewhat of an admirable character in their own right - that means, among other things, giving them some degree of initiative. Don't just have them wait for the party to prep up and copme to them - have them set a trap (a real one, not the "Wait in a place you know they'll be and challenge them to fisticuffs." kind of trap). Maybe they could ambush the party after (or in the middle of) a normal encounter, or when there's some other challenge the party is facing? (Fording an underground river, say, so that the part is having to spend actions to get themselves in position/protect themselves from other threats, rather than just dumping on the villain?)

I imagine even a low-level enemy could be a suitably epic fight with the right timing and preperation - if the BBEG has been scrying on them and teleports in with all his buffs up, just after the party has used up half their spells and HP on a regular tough fight...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Even this has some issues, though, as I don't find it particularly fair if the chimera or whatever gets to full attack me, my wizard friend blasts the chimera and my Barbarian friend slashes the chimera, and then the chimera full attacks me again before I get to act. But it seems like a good start to an idea.
And I don't find it particularly fair if the chimera or whatever full attacks you, then all your friends pile on and kill it before it can act again. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

[ChaoticDitz]

And I don't find it particularly fair if the chimera or whatever full attacks you, then all your friends pile on and kill it before it can act again. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

I see where you're coming from here, but it doesn't change the original problem that was present, as most DMs who don't provide extra actions can only boost up their monsters enough by making them one-shot PCs, so having them able to stomp you twice as fast doesn't really change the end result; it's one-sided both ways, as confusing as that is.

I like the alternate body parts idea, but in a different way; for example, the schism idea mentioned pretty early in the thread. Then it's more like multiple fights going on; it's more all-inclusive, because the magical or technical types have to contend with an opponent who is fighting basically magic-vs-magic with them, and the melees get to fight somebody who can stomp them; it still has the advantages of a group fight too, as strategic players can find ways to switch targets and force their way through, plus you can gang up when you win part of the fight. Of course, this particular example only really works for chimeras and similar creatures... So I guess you smart DM people can keep working on it, or be satisfied with your results and move on, whatever. *scratches head*

Alternatively, you could try the Instability approach, and make it so that the chimera/boss gains an extra standard action/round/whatever every time a PC specifically takes an action against it, while it maintains its normal initiative as well. This does all of making it feel like the opponent is worthy of the outnumbering advantage, without penalizing characters for buffing their defenses, and it rewards creative uses of actions, such as slashing or fireballing a rope supporting something in midair to make it fall on the chimera, since that won't give it extra actions. I'm sure you could poke holes in this system too, but hey, proper DM adjudication should be used for all things.