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Tola
2007-01-25, 12:11 PM
What's about the heaviest gear you'd expect someone who lives in the desert, and intends to return after all's said and done, to wear in terms of weapons, armours, shields, etc?

My character is meant to be from there, you see.

Gamebird
2007-01-25, 12:28 PM
Depends. Is your character a basic human, or a similar creature with a basicly human range of comfortable temperature?

If you are, then Medium armor was the heaviest I recall them using historically by desert natives. Though I gather that a properly equipped crusader could do fine in heavy armor for battles, though he'd be hot and tired if he had to wear it all day.

If you aren't... well, I really can't say. How to judge what a thri-keen would be able to manage? Or a desert-adapted ogre or elf? There's nothing to say that a desert adapted dwarf wouldn't have exactly the same stats as a dwarf, but would be comfortable at 90 degrees instead of 70, immune to sunburn and absolutely hate weather below 50, or rain.

There's also a range of desert conditions. "Desert" just indicates a certain low amount of rainfall. It doesn't necessarily mean hot. The Earth has several cold deserts on it and most deserts get miserably cold at night. Is your character's race day or night active? Again, a desert dwarf might be night active and resistant to temperature extremes of any kind (thus the +2 CON).

Tola
2007-01-25, 12:51 PM
Normal Human.

I'm assuming the 'Desert' is Generic.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-25, 12:55 PM
Then you're probably best sticking with light armor (or no armor and wearing a desert robe--an "aba"). Check out Sandstorm for more info.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-25, 01:02 PM
If you mean the stereotypical really hot in the day cold at night desert light armor a shield would be good it isn't as hot as armor stay away from metal armors and shields even non-metal weapons would be a good idea since they heat up so much. A good woolen robe. See fax celestia. you will also want enough water carrying capacity to last several days 4-5 gallons, food isn't as important but still 3 days or so. Some sort of shelter would be useful in pretty much any desert to protect from sun/heat and the cold at night not to mention dust/ sandstorms.

Draz74
2007-01-25, 01:14 PM
Check out Sandstorm for more info.

The brevity of the rest of the post makes this seem like a forceful recommendation rather than a friendly recommendation.

As a forceful recommendation, it's mildly rude, as it's quite likely that the OP doesn't have Sandstorm, and (like me) doesn't have $25 to shell out for a very specialized supplement.

Just trying to gently encourage tact ... :smallredface:

Piccamo
2007-01-25, 01:19 PM
Fax was offering a friendly suggestion. He offered advice and told the OP where to find more information about the subject. Even if there isn't $25 to shell out for a very specialized supplement, there are other ways of either finding the information or looking up a version from real life and homebrewing his own version of it. If anyone was out of line it is a moderator's role to resolve that issue.

PS: To the OP, try looking up information about the crusades to find some arab style equipment and attire.

Gamebird
2007-01-25, 01:59 PM
Actually, the Sandstorm comment brings up a good point.

Are you going to be following the rules for Sandstorm? If so, then of course you'll need to read those and tailor your character's equipment accordingly.

If you're just talking about realism, then walking around the desert with heavy armor on isn't as horrible as is often portrayed, nor as bad as various rulesets cast it (like Sandstorm). Realistically, the main problem is getting a covering over the armor so it doesn't build up heat in direct sunlight and using the right fabrics to wick away moisture and provide shade. Also, use simple common sense regarding activity cycles. Mediterranean peoples don't take a siesta in the middle of the day because they're lazy - they do it because that's the heat of the day and no sensible person can get any work done then anyway. I expect the arab peoples have similar customs, but I'm ignorant of them.

The main problems of heat stress encountered in deserts are due to ignorance and stubbornness - not knowing how to adapt yourself to the conditions, and stubbornly refusing to change your behavior to suit the climate.

The rules of Sandstorm are written by non-desert peoples, reflecting a world-view of a non-desert society. Which means they penalize people more than necessary for living in desert conditions.

Munchy
2007-01-25, 03:06 PM
Once your paladin has access to endure elements (via a friendly wizard, item, or her own spells) there is no reason why you couldn't wear any armor you wanted and just cast that spell to make it tolerable.

The main reason I see to avoid heavy armor is due to the movement restriction. In an open desert a faster, more mobile opponent could retreat and use ranged weapons repeatedly, denying your PC the chance to close in for melee. Unless your party has some way to counter this tactic, or to magic up your speed, I would recommend light armor in open areas, and heavy armor in closed areas or when you expect a slug-fest.

The gear your PC is wearing should be something that makes sense for the terrain she is currently in.

Gamebird
2007-01-25, 06:54 PM
Or ride a horse or other fast mount. The heavy armor restrictions don't matter if you're on a mount, assuming the mount isn't over-burdened.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-01-25, 07:24 PM
The brevity of the rest of the post makes this seem like a forceful recommendation rather than a friendly recommendation.

As a forceful recommendation, it's mildly rude, as it's quite likely that the OP doesn't have Sandstorm, and (like me) doesn't have $25 to shell out for a very specialized supplement.
http://boards1.wizards.com/images/smilies/dubious.gif

Fax, would you like me to bite him? No charge.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-25, 09:21 PM
http://boards1.wizards.com/images/smilies/dubious.gif

Fax, would you like me to bite him? No charge.

Nah, it's cool.

Let me explain: the brevity of the post is not due to intended rudeness; rather, I pride myself on being concise when necessary (and even when not). Furthermore, being away from my books, giving the information I provided ("see Sandstorm") was the easiest (and most accurate) information I could give without potentially misleading the original poster, providing inaccurate information, or writing a lengthy post of "if I remember correctly..."s.

daggaz
2007-01-26, 04:55 AM
I'm just curious, how many of you guys saying its not that big of a deal to wear medium or even heavy armor in a desert, have actually EVER been in a desert?If you are talking about a straight up burning sands desert (ie sahara, gobi, DUNE etc..), wear nothing but deep layers of a very insulating material, like wool. Remember to wrap your head thoroughly. Thick cotton will work too, but wool is much better. Remember that your character will require about 2 gallons of water a day, minimum. Also remember that in temperatures of 50 degrees celcius and higher, pretty much any kind of physical activity will result in a quick death. Stay in the shade, stay off the ground (its cooler about a foot or two up), and move around in the early morning, evening, and at night.In a milder desert, you could get away with wearing lighter armor, but its very dependent really on how much water you have access too. And I still wouldnt want to walk around in metal full plate during the heat of the day, for a human this could easily end up being a fatal situation..

Sir_Banjo
2007-01-26, 05:25 AM
What's about the heaviest gear you'd expect someone who lives in the desert, and intends to return after all's said and done, to wear in terms of weapons, armours, shields, etc?

My character is meant to be from there, you see.

Depends on the character, though I'd be inclined to say they'd wear as little as possible or at least not wear it all the time. As to what types of armour were used, check out Medieval Total War. As far as I can ascertain, it's quite accurate. For the desert peoples, ie. nomads who don't live in large cities, heavy armour is rarely, if ever, known. For those who live in the larger cities, the nobles and professional cavalry would often be equiped in a similiar fashion to western knights, ie. chain or some banded thing. I doubt you'd find a suit of full plate mail though.

Jack Mann
2007-01-26, 06:15 AM
It depends on the desert more than anything else. What kind of desert is it? How hot does it get? How cold does it get? How easy is it to find water? How arid is this desert? What animals and monsters are native to the area?

In the High Mojave, where I'm from, you could get away with your basic medium armor, and depending on the year, maybe some of the heavy stuff as well. I used to live closer to Death Valley. You wouldn't want to try heavy armor there. Just the cost in energy and dehydration from lugging it around wouldn't be worth it.

Other questions to consider, of course, are the sort of enemies your character might face, and the culture he or she comes from.

Gamebird
2007-01-26, 10:55 AM
I'm just curious, how many of you guys saying its not that big of a deal to wear medium or even heavy armor in a desert, have actually EVER been in a desert?

I've been in Death Valley, White Sands and various sections of the Mojave. What it taught me is the main things aren't the weight or encumberance of armor. It's what time of day the PC is active and what kind of desert it is. If they can be night active, then conditions might be very different. Or they might not be; deserts are very different. Death Valley remains hot throughout the night. White Sands chills very quickly into jacket and coat weather.

Armor does these things:
-- it's heavy. It increases the exertion of moving around.
-- because it's heavy, it's that much less water and other supplies you'll be able to carry. In a desert, this is very important.
-- it blocks the easy circulation of air. This interferes with the body's ability to perspire and cool itself. However, in a cold desert, this is an asset, not a liability.
-- if metal, it traps heat.

Don't forget:
-- In D&D, armor can be made of non-metal sources. Ironwood is core, but there are several other types. I think Sandstorm includes a type of chitonous armor.
-- Adventurers rarely make long treks on foot, carrying their armor and gear on their backs. A starting character can easily afford a mule (or camel).
-- Carrying/wearing armor in D&D is different from carrying it in reality. In reality, if you try to sleep on the open ground while wearing a chain shirt or a boiled leather jerkin, you'll be fatigued in the morning, assuming you ever managed to get to sleep. (This excepts exceptionally experienced individuals, or people who were already fatigued.) By the RAW though, there's no penalty. You can lay under the stars (or heck, under rain clouds), get dewed/rained on, in your light armor, and awake refreshed and ready to get at 'em.
-- If you're in a desert that cools down a lot at night, then wearing heavy armor isn't nearly as much of a problem as it is in heat.

Lilivati
2007-01-26, 11:08 AM
Regarding the resting comment- I know a guy who grew up camping, and recently we were both on the same geology field trip to upstate New York, which involved camping out for several nights. I was inside the warmest clothing I own, inside a sleeping bag, and inside a tent with three other people, and I was too cold to sleep. I don't camp a lot. This guy was wearing normal clothing (as opposed to the aforementioned heaviest clothing I own) and just laid out a tarp, zipped his sleeping bag up over his head, and was probably the most refreshed person in the group the next morning. Did I also mention it poured one of the nights? He was used to it; we were not.

There is a HUGE difference between someone who is acclimated to a certain environment living in that environment, and someone who isn't acclimated trying to live in that environment or conditions. I would imagine a character used to living in their armor in any and all conditions (seems to fit the lifestyle of most DnD characters) wouldn't have a problem getting rest. You made an allowance for "exceptionally experienced individuals", but it didn't seem that you would include most characters in that description, and I would say by level 2 at the latest, most would- and many may start that way, depending on their background.

Gamebird
2007-01-26, 11:30 AM
You made an allowance for "exceptionally experienced individuals", but it didn't seem that you would include most characters in that description, and I would say by level 2 at the latest, most would- and many may start that way, depending on their background.

It's very campaign-specific. Adventurers who always plan on staying at the next inn (and do so 95% of the time) are not used to sleeping out in the open, with or without armor. I would expect any 5th level or higher character to be experienced in sleeping in whatever armor they normally carry, because by then they've likely done so 50 or 500 times. Below that - I'm not so sure, unless they have a concept that includes a lot of Survival.

I agree with you that people get acclimated. My father is by far a better woodsman than I am. He hunts deer, pheasant, turkey... grew up in your stereotypical one room shack, never had a curfew, is an excellent shot, now owns a couple square miles of river bottom land in Oklahoma with a nice house on it for his retirement. He's always owned a bird dog. He goes fishing in Mexico several times a year. He's also a very tough man and was more so when he was younger. Not big, but quite strong from a lifetime of working in plumbing and building houses.

Last Thanksgiving he was telling me this story: He and a friend of his went to Montana to go elk hunting. They got directions to the guide's plot and headed up there. There was only a few inches of snow on the ground, but it was terribly cold and windy. They found the place. The guy, in his pajamas, waved them in from the open door of his house. They got out of their heated vehicles, wearing heavy-duty cold weather outfits and hurried inside. Inside was out of the wind... but not much else of an improvement. The fellow, still in single-layer pajamas (thermals, but still), sat on the couch and talked to them about the next day's hunt. They remained in their coats and outfits. They could still see their breath. The man offered coffee. They accepted. He went over to the stove and stirred the coals around, then threw out the ICE in the coffee pot hanging near the stove. That was when they realized that it really was as cold in that house as they thought. And finally they worked themselves up to asking their host if he could bring the fire up enough to warm it.

Throughout the next several days, they remained very cold. Their guide would walk around with face and hands exposed in two or three fewer layers than they were wearing. He seemed perfectly happy with 40 degree temperatures and comfortable enough at 30 (Fahrenheit).

My dad said he'd seen stuff like that from time to time, but he'd usually assumed people were just toughing it out for the sake of appearance. Oklahoma gets plenty cold in the winter, but it's just a bit different.

Reminds me of a friend from Wisconsin who was going to school at Oklahoma University. She'd go out in shorts and a tank top while the rest of us were in jeans and jackets. She would insist "it's not cold! Why are you wearing jackets?!?" Well, now that I've lived in Minnesota for 7 years, I kind of understand. People do acclimate.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-01-26, 01:33 PM
Heh, sounds like my kinda guy, Gamebird ;)

As long as I'm moving at least a little I'm perfectly happy in near freezing temperatures in shorts and a t-shirt.

However, I'm about ready to keel over in 90 degree temperatures and am even panting in the 80's and I'm not a blubbery fellow.

I'm a total heat factory. Seriously, give me a baby to hold and it begins dripping sweat in about 5 minutes (I'm the eldest of many kids, so this trick has been used alot).

Machete
2007-01-27, 02:01 AM
BLUE ICE armor from Frostburn. Keeps you nice and cool during the day.
Studded leather or the like at night. Wrap up in a cloak and a winter blanket.

Fizban
2007-01-27, 07:59 AM
Hey, not a bad idea there. I'd go with something like a blue ice chain shirt for day and a mithral chain shirt or breastplate for at night. I can see the sales pitch now....

"Heading out into the desert? Afraid of all those pesky (insert campaign relevent desert enemies)? Don't want to worry about the heat? Then buy one of our new personal refrigeration units! Also doubles as armor...."

Well you get the idea.