[3.X] How to Polymorph?

[Yael]

At the moment that you acquire Polymorph as a Sor/Wiz, which monsters are enough broken to use? What I mean is: what to transform into as a ''I Win Button'' in most cases?

I can think of the Will-O'-Wisp for lower levels.

[Story]

Hydra and Cave troll are good for melee combat. Gloura is good for a general purpose form due to high dex, flight, and being humanoid so you can still talk and cast spells. Rust monster is useful for utility.

Elder Brain Thoon if you want to be cheesy with action economy abuse.

[Yael]

Elder Brain Thoon if you want to be cheesy with action economy abuse.

How could one transform into a Thoon Elder Brain? Sure it has CR15, but according to Polymorph...

The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.

And looking at Thoon Elder Brain's MMV entry...

hp 174 (12 HD); fast healing 10

Maybe am I missing something?

[OldTrees1]

What you are missing is that the Elder Brain's 12HD < the spell's 15HD cap

[Urpriest]

Right out the gate, Annis Hag is actually a really nice form. It falls behind the trolls a couple levels later, but there's a level or two when it's one of the better humanoid-shaped combat forms.

Hydras are great, if you ascribe to the "the size restriction from Alter Self is negated by the broader language in Polymorph" argument.

[Yael]

What you are missing is that the Elder Brain's 12HD < the spell's 15HD cap

OMG you're right!!!!

I was thinking in something completely different at the time! D:

(LoM's Elder Brain, what was I thinking... I even posted the HD's lol)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Remember that you can't polymorph into anything with a template.

Obligatory Polymorph Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519.0) link.

[Yael]

Obligatory Polymorph Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519.0) link.

Wow, thank you too.

[ericgrau]

At the moment that you acquire Polymorph as a Sor/Wiz, which monsters are enough broken to use? What I mean is: what to transform into as a ''I Win Button'' in most cases?

I can think of the Will-O'-Wisp for lower levels.

Polymorph doesn't give you everything. As a wisp you can't fly so you can't move, you're perfectly visible, and you may still be affected by magic. But at least you get the shock attack in case anyone tries to pick up this weird inanimate ball... and then they immediately squash it.

[Story]

One other useful form I forgot is the Phthsic due to its int damage. Sadly, psionics was banned in my game (Anima Mage with Persist Spell was perfectly fine of course).

[Valtu]

Polymorph doesn't give you everything. As a wisp you can't fly so you can't move, you're perfectly visible, and you may still be affected by magic. But at least you get the shock attack in case anyone tries to pick up this weird inanimate ball... and then they immediately squash it.

Why couldn't you fly as a Will-O-Wisp?


I'm also new to polymorph and just acquired it (although I haven't used it once yet).

[ericgrau]

It's based on alter self and alter self only grants wing-based flight. Basically read the wall of text that are polymorph and alter self.

As for how to use it there are already some good links in this thread. Just make sure your DM is okay with forms from weird splatbook X. Wartroll is the famous one for being broken, but there are various levels of power from various books.

[Optimator]

War Trolls and Firbolgs are excellent choices.

[Psyren]

It's based on alter self and alter self only grants wing-based flight. Basically read the wall of text that are polymorph and alter self.

It says "such as...flight with wings" which doesn't necessarily rule out non-wing flight. Moreover, their flight isn't magical, so it could be considered "mundane" as well (for them.)

[ericgrau]

That's a stretch. It's also physical, implying that the shape itself is providing the movement. Spongy globes don't generally fly. After googling I see people try to use it because there's no Flight (Su) line. That seems at best ambiguous.

[Psyren]

That's a stretch. It's also physical, implying that the shape itself is providing the movement. Spongy globes don't generally fly. After googling I see people try to use it because there's no Flight (Su) line. That seems at best ambiguous.

At best, at worst, and everything in between. It is ambiguous.

[ericgrau]

The "Flight (Su)" line isn't in lantern archons either which does make it plausible that it's non-magical/supernatural at least. Still not sure it's physical though, or in what sense "mudane" is being used.

I looked at the wizards.com articles and they seemed to imply that the text in the parenthesis were more than just explanations; that they're hard limits. And they mentioned that the reason there's a 60/120 foot speed limit is because anything being that would be an extraordinary ability; not something physically possible. (Ex) could also fit the wisp's flight in that it's not physically possible but not magical either. The only creature I found in the SRD with a listed Flight (Ex) was gibbering orb which is epic. There are 6 with a listed Flight (Su), 1 of which is epic.

[Urpriest]

That's a stretch. It's also physical, implying that the shape itself is providing the movement. Spongy globes don't generally fly. After googling I see people try to use it because there's no Flight (Su) line. That seems at best ambiguous.

Neither do wings. Throw a pair of wings off of a building, and they'll just be a tangled mess at the bottom. You need to use wings properly to fly. Similarly, will'o'wisps shoot out jets of air that allow them to hover. If you have the air organs, you should be able to use them.

[Psyren]

I looked at the wizards.com articles and they seemed to imply that the text in the parenthesis were more than just explanations; that they're hard limits.

Unfortunately those articles are not RAW and in fact are outright wrong in several places.

The important part is that alter self's text is inclusive ("such as") rather than exclusive, thus making it a DM call one way or the other.

[Valtu]

This may be a very basic question, but I didn't see it in the actual spell description anywhere. . .do you have to encounter or see a creature at some point in your character's life in order to use it for Polymorph?

Seems like at the very least, you'd have to gain some familiarity through study or something, but I haven't seen anyone mention it.

[TuggyNE]

This may be a very basic question, but I didn't see it in the actual spell description anywhere. . .do you have to encounter or see a creature at some point in your character's life in order to use it for Polymorph?

Seems like at the very least, you'd have to gain some familiarity through study or something, but I haven't seen anyone mention it.

You'd assume so, but it doesn't actually say that, either in polymorph, in alter self, or in PHBII's (polymorph) subschool rules.

[Endarire]

Any ability described as "Natural" is granted via polymorph and co. Thus, natural invisibility works.

[Valtu]

You'd assume so, but it doesn't actually say that, either in polymorph, in alter self, or in PHBII's (polymorph) subschool rules.

If our DM doesn't already have a preferred way of keeping Polymorph from being too OP, I really like one system I saw on another forum at some point:

It was basically the same as the table for determining the success of a teleport spell based on the caster's familiarity with the destination, but applied to Polymorph so that the caster's familiarity with the creature determined whether it would be successful or not.

One guy even had the idea of making the player roll a d20 and if they botched, the creature in question was summoned to the caster's location instead, but not under his or anyone's control. That's also a pretty cool twist on things, IMO.

[ddude987]

Also remember, polymorphing your bsf isn't a bad option for "I win" combat situations.

[Valtu]

Also remember, polymorphing your bsf isn't a bad option for "I win" combat situations.

What is BSF?

[ddude987]

What is BSF?

big stupid fighter. Turn him into some creature with str = lol and that's basically a win button

[Valtu]

big stupid fighter. Turn him into some creature with str = lol and that's basically a win button

Ah hahaha nice. I suppose you could even use it to take the form of a regular humanoid character, as if you were an additional fighter in your party? Would you get to choose feats and things like that for that form, or is that pushing it?

[ddude987]

Ah hahaha nice. I suppose you could even use it to take the form of a regular humanoid character, as if you were an additional fighter in your party? Would you get to choose feats and things like that for that form, or is that pushing it?

no, polymorphing the fighter would just give him very large physical ability scores, he doesn't change feats or anything from that, though I do believe racial bonus feats are gotten from polymorph because RAW feats are EX abilities. Is that a thing, or am I crazy?

One cool trick I've seen with polymorph was a player in a group I was in using Draconic polymorph and polymorphing into a big scary thing, and then casting alter self to become humanoid while retaining the huge ability scores. He was gishing, and that was quite an effective synergy.

[Valtu]

no, polymorphing the fighter would just give him very large physical ability scores, he doesn't change feats or anything from that, though I do believe racial bonus feats are gotten from polymorph because RAW feats are EX abilities. Is that a thing, or am I crazy?

One cool trick I've seen with polymorph was a player in a group I was in using Draconic polymorph and polymorphing into a big scary thing, and then casting alter self to become humanoid while retaining the huge ability scores. He was gishing, and that was quite an effective synergy.

Oh man, that's brilliant! I guess the only drawback is that with Alter Self, you reduce yourself to the max 5 HD, but not sure exactly what that would do or how it would interact with whatever form you had first Polymorphed into.

Oh, also, if you Alter Self'ed back into your own race, would your equipment come back? Or would that only happen after both spells ended or were dismissed?

[Valtu]

I thought of a new question last night:

Can you Polymorph into an animal that normally has 2-3 HD, but into a form with higher Hit Dice? For example, an eagle has 1d8 HD, but under Advancement it says 2-3 HD (Medium).

Does that mean you could take the form of a slightly tougher eagle, assuming you're medium-sized by default and your CL is high enough?

[Meowmasterish]

I thought of a new question last night:

Can you Polymorph into an animal that normally has 2-3 HD, but into a form with higher Hit Dice? For example, an eagle has 1d8 HD, but under Advancement it says 2-3 HD (Medium).

Does that mean you could take the form of a slightly tougher eagle, assuming you're medium-sized by default and your CL is high enough?

It depends on what your DM says. However, I think that technically you could.