They're Still in the Grand Illusion

[Inst]

I just had a horrible OOTS-related dream, and when I woke up, my pillow was gone.

Just kidding, but when I woke up I realized that the entire sequence of events after Elan et al getting Grand Illusion-ed didn't seem to make much sense and seemed as though it was more or less Elan's fantasy (see Mechine), albeit a highly plausible and believable fantasy, with significant characters acting out of character (Tarquin et al being underpowered and stupefied), and the narrative just not being satisfying anymore with everything being tied up so neatly.

It's just a venture; for all I know this is still the real storyline and they're not still in the pyramid. And yes, this is very much "you don't like the way the story is going so you just retcon everything you don't like", but it would be a shocking twist and there's enough narrative foreshadowing to make it credible.

It would be bad storytelling, however, to keep it on-going indefinitely, and as Popperian falsifiability, if the Giant doesn't drop the reveal in the next 50 comics or so this is definitely epileptic trees speculation.

[thereaper]

There's been too much hard-earned victory and development since the illusion broke (which made perfect sense, by the way; Tarquin was never acting out of character or weak; he acted exactly as a character of his power level and personality would). To go back now would be a retcon.

And no, there hasn't been any foreshadowing. There has only been a joke pointing out how stupid it would be for there to be a triple fantasy (making such a thing even less likely).

[Vinyadan]

I was waiting for someone to say this :smallbiggrin: I'm afraid, my friend, you are already in Epilepsy Wood Valley.

[ThePhantasm]

Tarquin has been underpowered? I'm confused as to... how... what....?

You're not the only one to say this, but after we've had one of the longest fight / chase scenes ever in the whole story, I'm not sure why people are saying it. Its not like escaping Tarquin was a piece of cake for the Order...

[Gift Jeraff]

Tarquin wasn't acting OOC to anyone who was never convinced of his alleged hyper competence.

[NerdyKris]

It would be bad storytelling, however, to keep it on-going indefinitely, and as Popperian falsifiability, if the Giant doesn't drop the reveal in the next 50 comics or so this is definitely epileptic trees speculation.

It's already way, WAY past that point. No, they're not in the illusion anymore. To do that now would be so unbelievably ridiculous that I would seriously worry about the Giant's mental state.

[Copperdragon]

... even if the comic ends in a few years and all is resolved, someone will argue for them still being in the illusion...

[Keltest]

Sigh. not even one Styx reference. oh well.

Anyway, the comic has gone on too long for it to all have been a dream. Plus, none of the Order knew that V loaned his soul out, so he wouldn't have the information he got from sabine.

[137beth]

They've been in an illusion since strip 94. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296812)

[ti'esar]

...This is why I will never include any kind of illusion/dream machine/etc storyline in anything I ever write.

[Kish]

...This is why I will never include any kind of illusion/dream machine/etc storyline in anything I ever write.
Because you expect to find headdesking over people reading your characters' motivations' exactly backwards, being all outraged that your characters didn't act a way that fits an imagined character completely different than the one you've been writing, and protesting that any and all heinous atrocities you had your characters commit are not, in fact, particularly wrong, much less heinous atrocities, to be less painful than headdesking over people constantly saying, "I bet this is an illusion!"?

[Inst]

Tarquin wasn't acting OOC to anyone who was never convinced of his alleged hyper competence.

Tarquin had one huge blindspot, namely, his family; a bit like Ian Starshine, if you follow the most recent speculation. Aside from his blindspot, everything about Tarquin seemed to be well-ordered and under control.

Just, if you look at the way Grand Illusion works; with people getting what they really want, it's plausible that the current scenario is yet another Grand Illusion.




It's already way, WAY past that point. No, they're not in the illusion anymore. To do that now would be so unbelievably ridiculous that I would seriously worry about the Giant's mental state.

More my taste than yours; I wouldn't mind a Schezerade-type stacking; but you're right, most people hated say, the Endless Eight sequence in Haruhi, where the show spent 8 episodes filming the same repetitive scenes


...This is why I will never include any kind of illusion/dream machine/etc storyline in anything I ever write.

Yeah, that's part of the danger. Consider say, Philip ****'s Eye in the Sky, where the characters are transported to each character's personal reality. The ending is left ambiguous as to whether it's actually a happy ending, or whether they're now living in the dream world of the hero protagonists.

[ti'esar]

Because you expect to find headdesking over people reading your characters' motivations' exactly backwards, being all outraged that your characters didn't act a way that fits an imagined character completely different than the one you've been writing, and protesting that any and all heinous atrocities you had your characters commit are not, in fact, particularly wrong, much less heinous atrocities, to be less painful than headdesking over people constantly saying, "I bet this is an illusion!"?

Because the latter is basically a way of doing the former passive-aggressively. If people are going to completely disagree with my story, I'd rather they just do it instead of going "...and therefore it's not real!"

[DeliaP]

They've been in an illusion since strip 94. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296812)

Since panel 1 of strip 1. (Or panel 1 of SoD (or just after the Snarl destroyed the first creation.. (depending how far you want to push it...)))

[Harbinger]

It would be a shockingly bad twist. Like, that is the single biggest eye-rolling, anger-inducing excuse for a twist that the Giant could possibly do. It would mean the last year of comics have been a completely pointless detour. The Giant is a better writer than that. It would explain the narrative not being satisfying anymore? To who, you? Because most other people seem to like it. There isn't really an argument there. Besides, Tarquin isn't acting OOC at all. T is all about control. He's good at making himself seem all-powerful, but only when he's in control. When Malack was killed and he was forced (from his perspective) to kill Nale, that control was taken away from him, and his increasingly crazy actions were an attempt to get it back. He's flawed, like every other character in the story. I'm glad the Giant did it, because if Tarquin was actually as perfectly competent and in-control as he appeared to be for so long, he'd be a bit of a Villain Sue.

[AKA_Bait]

While I find the OP's theory implausible, I must commend his Karl Popper reference.

[Ben Kenobi]

Just kidding, but when I woke up I realized that the entire sequence of events after Elan et al getting Grand Illusion-ed didn't seem to make much sense and seemed as though it was more or less Elan's fantasy (see Mechine), albeit a highly plausible and believable fantasy, with significant characters acting out of character (Tarquin et al being underpowered and stupefied), and the narrative just not being satisfying anymore with everything being tied up so neatly.


Still think this would be an interesting twist at the end of things, especially if Roy goes, "did I do it for real this time?" after killing Xykon.

It could also be a bittersweet one given Lotus Eater Machines and cruel twist endings.

[King of Nowhere]

I think the limit of the plausible Popper falsifiability was, like, 40 strips ago. Period.

[Ridureyu]

We'll only know for sure if the top stops spinning.

[orrion]

...This is why I will never include any kind of illusion/dream machine/etc storyline in anything I ever write.

If anything, OOTS and its forums have taught me to be less careful about what I write because there will always people who can twist the story to fit whatever they want to believe is true.

The rational decision is to just acknowledge that it will happen and ignore it rather than trying to make sure it doesn't happen.

[Balok]

The Giant is *probably* old enough to remember a television show called "Dallas". No, not that one, the first one. Which is why I doubt he'd do this.

[137beth]

Since panel 1 of strip 1. (Or panel 1 of SoD (or just after the Snarl destroyed the first creation.. (depending how far you want to push it...)))

Well duh, it was an illusion created by the sleeping goblin!

[SaintRidley]

Well duh, it was an illusion created by the sleeping goblin!

I'm pretty sure it was created by a rather large, wealthy giant hanging out by the monkey bars, actually.

[Aquillion]

Since panel 1 of strip 1. (Or panel 1 of SoD (or just after the Snarl destroyed the first creation.. (depending how far you want to push it...)))It was an illusion all along. The entire OOTS universe is just a clever illusion created by a series of still images and text positioned to create the impression that we're watching characters and looking at a real world. None of the events actually happen, and none of the people (except Gary Gygax) actually exist.

[SaintRidley]

It was an illusion all along. The entire OOTS universe is just a clever illusion created by a series of still images and text positioned to create the impression that we're watching characters and looking at a real world. None of the events actually happen, and none of the people (except Gary Gygax) actually exist.

So Dave Arneson really was a figment of my imagination.

[Shale]

Everything - the online strip, the characters contained therein, the print books, the Giant, even Gary Gygax - is part of an elaborate plan that is even now being brought to fruition by the Heavily Templated Snail.

[Aquillion]

Also, re: Tarquin seeming less powerful than you expected, the fact is that fighters just don't gain much from having extra levels compared to most other classes. Tarquin's power was considerably exaggerated up until this showdown (mostly by carefully arranging to ensure that V was not present whenever they fought.) All Tarquin has on Roy, for instance, is a bit more BAB, a few more feats, and slightly better equipment -- they're not significantly different in mechanical capabilities.

[DeliaP]

It was an illusion all along. The entire OOTS universe is just a clever illusion created by a series of still images and text positioned to create the impression that we're watching characters and looking at a real world. None of the events actually happen, and none of the people (except Gary Gygax) actually exist.

Oh thank you! The final illusion theory: you win all my internets today. :smallsmile:


So Dave Arneson really was a figment of my imagination.

And Keith Baker, if you include SoD!


Everything - the online strip, the characters contained therein, the print books, the Giant, even Gary Gygax - is part of an elaborate plan that is even now being brought to fruition by the Heavily Templated Snail.

Oh, damn. The illusion theory has gone meta... now there's just no stopping it.... :smalleek:

[JBiddles]

Also, re: Tarquin seeming less powerful than you expected, the fact is that fighters just don't gain much from having extra levels compared to most other classes. Tarquin's power was considerably exaggerated up until this showdown (mostly by carefully arranging to ensure that V was not present whenever they fought.) All Tarquin has on Roy, for instance, is a bit more BAB, a few more feats, and slightly better equipment -- they're not significantly different in mechanical capabilities.


Not really the case in OotS. Whilst the D&D rules still have some influence (e.g. it would strain belief to have the full Order, including casters, taken down by Tarquin alone) those certainly don't extend to the point that there's no real difference between Roy and Tarquin.

[DeliaP]

Also, re: Tarquin seeming less powerful than you expected, the fact is that fighters just don't gain much from having extra levels compared to most other classes. Tarquin's power was considerably exaggerated up until this showdown (mostly by carefully arranging to ensure that V was not present whenever they fought.) All Tarquin has on Roy, for instance, is a bit more BAB, a few more feats, and slightly better equipment -- they're not significantly different in mechanical capabilities.

Not really the case in OotS. Whilst the D&D rules still have some influence (e.g. it would strain belief to have the full Order, including casters, taken down by Tarquin alone) those certainly don't extend to the point that there's no real difference between Roy and Tarquin.


I'd also like to point out that, as far as I know, it still isn't clear that Tarquin is a single-classed fighter (albeit with an interesting and unusual set of feat choices) rather than something like eg. a Dashing Swordsman...

Given the suggestion that Tarquin is sort-of the Elan of Team New-World-Order, and Shoulder Pad Guy is most likely the straight fighter, Tarquin ought to be the jack-of-all-trades. The fact that he describes himself as such a great fighter may just be his inflated ego, yet again...

(Yes, I know he was able to face the OotS, sans V, singlehanded but an Epic level secondary-rank melee type, with fancy magic items including a pretty fast regeneration ring, might well find that not so much of a challenge...)

[Gift Jeraff]

An actual good twist would be that they were never in the illusion to begin with.

[Aquillion]

An actual good twist would be that they were never in the illusion to begin with.Alternatively, this is the illusion, and what we saw before was real. Xykon is actually already dead. Re-dead. Double dead. You know what I mean.

[DeliaP]

An actual good twist would be that they were never in the illusion to begin with.

Everything happening in the Order of the Stick is real.

We are the illusion.

[Rondodu]

It was an illusion all along. The entire OOTS universe is just a clever illusion created by a series of still images and text positioned to create the impression that we're watching characters and looking at a real world. None of the events actually happen, and none of the people (except Gary Gygax) actually exist.Some people call this the Invisible Art (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understanding_Comics).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I know that if it were revealed that everything we have seen for the past 50 strips was still part of the illusion, I would feel extremely annoyed. We would lose:

The destruction of the gate
Nale's death
The huge fight with Tarquin and Company
All the other odds and ends we've been tying up

This, IMO, would be extremely unsatisfying.

[Loreweaver15]

But don't be fooled by the radio, the TV, or the magazines
They show you photographs of how your life should be
But they're just someone else's fantasy
So if you think your life is complete confusion
Because you never win the game
Just remember that it's a grand illusion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcGP0nXPQ70)
And deep inside we're all the same

[Fish]

They woke up into a larger illusion in which

1) they failed to protect the Gate
2) Durkon really get vamped like Belkar said
3) Belkar was right about something
4) Xykon is already at the next Gate
5) Belkar isn't dead
6) Nale is
7) And so is Zz'dtri
8) Elan's goofy plan worked

If Girard had an illusion this powerful he would have led with it. Everybody would have rolled to disbelieve that last one.

[The Giant]

It's not an illusion. If you don't like the story since then, then you just don't like the story. It's not the end of the world. There are other stories out there.

[Shale]

There are other stories out there.

That depends on how far the Snail's plan goes.

[DeliaP]

There are other stories out there.

That depends on how far the Snail's plan goes.

It's OK: as long as Elan is alive and well, he will be able to continue to tell our story and we will continue to exist! And as the Oracle has confirmed Elan will have a happy ending, we can be sure the Snail will be foiled. Phew, we're safe!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But what if the Oracle is being controlled by the Snail?

[orrion]

But what if the Oracle is being controlled by the Snail?

Then the Oracle wouldn't have bothered trying to get Roy to realize he was asking the wrong question.

[ellindsey]

They aren't in the illusion. We are. Girard's illusion is so powerful it's reached out into the real world and snared us all.

[DeliaP]

They aren't in the illusion. We are. Girard's illusion is so powerful it's reached out into the real world and snared us all.

Well <refresh> I know <refresh> something's got <refresh> me snared <refresh> right <refresh> now....