Versatile Spellcaster + Dread Necro = Shenanigans?

[Chester]

As a 6th Level Dread Necro, I can cast 3rd level spells.

If I take Versatile Spellcaster, can I abuse that to cast 4th level spells, since I technically KNOW all spells on my list, and Versatile Spellcaster would technically give me ACCESS to level 4 spells?

(I'm sure this question has been asked here before, but alas, I don't seem to have an available search function on the forum.)

[Snowbluff]

Generally, yes. Some will disagree, but there are other work arounds and loopholes to be exploited. For example, Heighten Spell will let you count as casting a fourth level spell.

Versatile Spellcaster is incredibly powerful at all levels without cheese, so even if you aren't allowed to cast 4th level spells this way, you should take it.

[Chester]

That's . . . fantastic. Thank you!

[HunterOfJello]

RAW:
Versatile Spellcaster alone = No
Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell = Yes (Probably. I forget all the arguments.)

RAI:
No
No


The original definition of Known Spells in the PHB glossary for sorcerers and bards (arcane spontaneous spellcasters) directly references "level advancement" which is obviously meant to be the limiting factor in access to higher level spells.

Dread Necromancer does not "know" all of the spells on its list from 1 to 9 at Dread Necro 1. The description on page 85 of Heroes of Horror says, "When a dread necromancer gains access to a new level of spells, she automatically knows all the spells for that level given on the dread necromancer’s spell list." You don't have access to new level of spells if you do something like Versatile Spellcaster + Silent Spell. You're simply casting a lower level spell with a metamagic on it. Heighten Spell, however, specifically turns a lower level spell into a higher level spell. So Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell can let you cast a 2nd level spell as a 3rd level spell in a 3rd level slot.

Versatile Spellcasters definition says that it allows you to cast a spell that you know. Therefore, you cannot use it to learn a new spell or gain access to something new since you have to know that spell before you can use Versatile Spellcaster to learn it. (The way to get around this is Heighten Spell on a spell that you do already know.)

[Chester]

Wouldn't Versatile Spellcaster give me access to higher level spells? Could we argue it that way?

[olentu]

Wouldn't Versatile Spellcaster give me access to higher level spells? Could we argue it that way?

That depends on what you mean by access.

[Tommy2255]

That depends on what you mean by access.

Access: The ability to use it.

The only way that it could possibly not be considered to give access to a new spell level is because they don't know higher level spells. And the only way they could not know higher level spells is because they aren't considered able to cast access them. If we are to avoid a spiral of circular logic and madness, then we'll have to allow it. Especially since it doesn't call any additional issues with the rules.

[olentu]

Access: The ability to use it.

The only way that it could possibly not be considered to give access to a new spell level is because they don't know higher level spells. And the only way they could not know higher level spells is because they aren't considered able to cast access them. If we are to avoid a spiral of circular logic and madness, then we'll have to allow it. Especially since it doesn't call any additional issues with the rules.

By your explanation it would seem that by the ability to use it you mean "The ability to cast spells of that particular level if at some point in the future the character was to gain one or more spells of that level as known spells."

[OldTrees1]

Spells have a minimum caster level required to cast. The example is Fireball requires cl5 to cast.

[Snowbluff]

Spells have a minimum caster level required to cast. The example is Fireball requires cl5 to cast.

We all know that's not true. Ur-Priests, Suel Archanamachs, Knights of the Weave. It's an absolute falsehood.

[Tommy2255]

By your explanation it would seem that by the ability to use it you mean "The ability to cast spells of that particular level if at some point in the future the character was to gain one or more spells of that level as known spells."

No, just the ability to cast spells of that level if right now the character knew them. Knowing a spell and being able to cast it are two different things and neither is necessarily dependent on the other. There are dozens of examples of this. The only difference in this case is that the ability to cast automatically grants knowledge of the spell because you're a Dread Necromancer. It wouldn't work for sorcerer, because they learn spells of specific levels at specific sorcerer levels. If there were a spontaneous caster that learned spells like a wizard (which there isn't because that would be insanely OP), then they could do the same thing by copying down a spell of a higher level in their book.

[HunterOfJello]

Spells have a minimum caster level required to cast. The example is Fireball requires cl5 to cast.

This is an example of a rule that was generally supposed to exist, but was never actually written in.

The SRD text for the rules relevant to this is:



You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

The problem lies in the fact that 'the caster level high enough to cast a spell' is never properly defined. It is presumably the caster level you were at when you became able to cast that spell originally. A fireball spell has a minimum caster level of 5 for a Wizard but 6 for a Sorcerer. However, if you gained early access to cast a spell, then that's the lowest caster level you were at when you could cast that level of spell. Spells also don't have minimum caster levels inherent in their casting separate from the class or prestige class that gives you access to them.

[olentu]

No, just the ability to cast spells of that level if right now the character knew them. Knowing a spell and being able to cast it are two different things and neither is necessarily dependent on the other. There are dozens of examples of this. The only difference in this case is that the ability to cast automatically grants knowledge of the spell because you're a Dread Necromancer. It wouldn't work for sorcerer, because they learn spells of specific levels at specific sorcerer levels. If there were a spontaneous caster that learned spells like a wizard (which there isn't because that would be insanely OP), then they could do the same thing by copying down a spell of a higher level in their book.

But they don't know them right now, so presumably they would not gain the spells as known spells and thus be able to cast them until some time in the future. But if you insist, allow me to rephrase.

"The ability to cast spells of that particular level right now if the character were to have gained one or more spells of that level as known spells at some point in the past even though that has not actually happened."

[OldTrees1]

We all know that's not true. Ur-Priests, Suel Archanamachs, Knights of the Weave. It's an absolute falsehood.

Rules printed in the Players handbook[pg 171] are not untrue.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the
caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell
in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the
same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball
to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she
can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower
caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected
caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than
5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

[Tommy2255]

But they don't know them right now, so presumably they would not gain the spells as known spells and thus be able to cast them until some time in the future. But if you insist, allow me to rephrase.

At what time in the future? Because Dread Necromancers learn new spells as soon as they gain access to them. And if they can't access them until they already know spells at that level, then they can never learn new spells.


"The ability to cast spells of that particular level right now if the character were to have gained one or more spells of that level as known spells at some point in the past even though that has not actually happened."

Is a ridiculously overcomplicated definition designed to avoid an exploit that isn't that powerful in the first place and has no backing anywhere in the actual rules. The rules say "When a Dread Necromancer gains access to a new level of spells, she automatically knows all the spells for that level given on the dread necromancer's spell list." Unless there's somewhere in any written material that defines "access to a new level of spells" as anything other than "the ability to cast spells of that level", then I don't understand where the problem is.

[Snowbluff]

Rules printed in the Players handbook[pg 171] are not untrue.

Write a reply that's a combination of what HunterofJello said, and add in the fact the the XPH has a rule concerning the ability type of manifestation is always ignored on a specific basis per psionic class. Something that looks like it's not true, acts like it's not true, and is misinterpreted in a manner that is untrue, it's untrue. Even if we did not have to ignore it on a regular basis, it only functionally refers to intentionally lowering the CL of a spell cast.

[olentu]

At what time in the future? Because Dread Necromancers learn new spells as soon as they gain access to them. And if they can't access them until they already know spells at that level, then they can never learn new spells.



Is a ridiculously overcomplicated definition designed to avoid an exploit that isn't that powerful in the first place and has no backing anywhere in the actual rules. The rules say "When a Dread Necromancer gains access to a new level of spells, she automatically knows all the spells for that level given on the dread necromancer's spell list." Unless there's somewhere in any written material that defines "access to a new level of spells" as anything other than "the ability to cast spells of that level", then I don't understand where the problem is.

Yes, that is true, and that is probably why a definition I have seen used is "Has a spell slot of that level."

Eh, I have seen many, many definitions for what access to a certain level of spells means with regards to the dread necromancer. For example one, more unusual, version is, "Can count as casting the spell of that level through the use of consumable items, such as scrolls." The definition needs to be precise since the feat in question does not allow a character to cast spells they do not yet know.

And really, the "ridiculously overcomplicated definition designed to avoid an exploit that isn't that powerful in the first place and has no backing anywhere in the actual rules" actually allows for a dread necromancer with just the feat to gain access to the next level of spells. So, you know, the opposite of what you said.

Edit: And by the way if you happen to have a definition in the rules that says just what access means, you should probably, you know, point to just where it is. While it may not resolve things completely, it could certainly help.

[Malimar]

Ask the nearest wombat for help.