Dragon Shaman, tier...?

[Atypical_Necro]

While I don't strictly abide by the tier system, I do like to reference it on occasion. I've noticed that dragon shaman is nowhere on any tier list. What would everyone rate it at?

The reason I ask is because I'm going to be running a campaign soon, and one of my players wants to be an aventi dragon shaman (silver or bronze). The classes that my others are playing are tier 3 or higher, so I want her to be able to contribute effectively.

I've already noted one weakness, that being their low skill points (which I upped to 4+Int).

Is the class a decent option? I don't have much experience with it so I don't know what I'm looking at. If something would need to be added to make it more competitive, what would you suggest?

As usual, I look forward to your responses.

[eggynack]

I think it's tier four or five, though I forget which one. I'd advise pointing her towards the dragonfire adept (DrM, 24), which has a lot of the same flavor, but lands in tier three.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think it's tier four or five, though I forget which one. I'd advise pointing her towards the dragonfire adept (DrM, 24), which has a lot of the same flavor, but lands in tier three.

The main flaw in both class concepts is that rolling monster saving throws (assuming the DM lets the player roll for them at all) is going to be 90% of your career. Both dragon shaman and DFA have other schtick, but breath weapon is by far the easiest tool to optimize, which can easily lead to one-trick-pony.

I kind of actually prefer the built-in support aspect of dragon shaman.

Would be really sweet to make a variant of Eldritch Disciple that allowed the dragon shaman to pick up a Healing Breath. Sounds about the same strength as War Weaver. Hmm, might have to give that some homebrew space in my head.

[Urpriest]

There's argument, but generally it's somewhere in Tier 4-5. It's still a pretty poorly designed class in general, and a Dragonfire Adept gets across most of the "I love Dragons" flavor without including random non-dragony stuff.

[AmberVael]

I've noticed that dragon shaman is nowhere on any tier list. What would everyone rate it at?

Five. It doesn't really have much going for it, to be honest. As Eggynack says, Dragonfire Adept is a very similar but much better option.

If your player likes some of the features of Dragon Shaman though, consider porting them over to Dragonfire Adept as invocations, ACFs, feats, or just straight up bonus abilities. Dragonfire Adept is tier 3, but it is on the low side of things, so giving it auras or the like won't push it too far.

[Phelix-Mu]

The only problem with auras is that they are another passive ability. If fighter gets boring because of "charge...full attack...full attack," then DFA is probably an even worse offender. Some of the invocations allow additional kinds of combat actions, but a fair number follow the warlock style of 24 hour buffs and bonuses to certain things.

A solid option for someone who doesn't like to roll dice, though. Which might be nice for people that find combat stressful or freak out about on-the-spot math.

[Joe the Rat]

In a low-op game, or with a fair bit of crafting, they're playable: 4-5.

I'd say steer her towards the DFA with tweaks. Like auras as invocation options, and light armor proficiency. Warlocks get leather, why not the DFAs?

Alternatively, Use the DS Chassis, and add the invocation progression. If you like, Dump the Commune and Wings, and anything else that seems too much like extra baggage to make room. You'll probably want to add Concentration as a class skill.

[Gemini476]

You know how people get a bit bored of the minor buffs that a Core Bard throws out with Bardic Music? The Dragon Shaman suffers from some similar issues.

Also it's pretty bad for something who's concept is "I want to be like a Dragon!"
I mean really, dragon wings at level 19? And a 1/Week Commune that only ever gets you six questions? Really?

Suggest a Dragonfire Adept instead if your player loves the fluff, since it's pretty similar.

[AmberVael]

The only problem with auras is that they are another passive ability.
On the other hand, they're basically the only thing that the dragon shaman gets that is remotely interesting and not overlapped by DFA. So you know, if you're a DFA with auras, you've got everything you could want from Shaman plus all the DFA stuff too.


If fighter gets boring because of "charge...full attack...full attack," then DFA is probably an even worse offender. Some of the invocations allow additional kinds of combat actions, but a fair number follow the warlock style of 24 hour buffs and bonuses to certain things.
You sir, are crazy. The DFA isn't exactly the paragon of versatility, true, but with things like Entangling Exhalation, the different breath effects, and the invocations, the DFA definitely has more interesting things to do than just the same breath each round.

[Phelix-Mu]

You sir, are crazy. The DFA isn't exactly the paragon of versatility, true, but with things like Entangling Exhalation, the different breath effects, and the invocations, the DFA definitely has more interesting things to do than just the same breath each round.

But little in the way of rolling, except damage when using a damaging effect. Some people like to roll.

But I see your point. I probably am speaking from limited experience. I only ever did one at very low levels, and it was a multiclass DFA/wizard, so obviously DFA seemed a little constricted.

Also, the breath weapon mechanic can make it a little difficult to benefit from the normal array of buffs, but no more so than any other caster/invoker.

[Xerlith]

I always basically gestalted those classes into one and it never got out of hand. Just wrap those classes into one. It's been probably done formally on the homebrew forums long ago.

[Blackhawk748]

I once played one at lvl 15, i was a lizardfolk and i actually had lot of fun. The auras, while not crazy, are helpful and the breath weapon isn't terrible. Honestly i always played them like a Priest for Dragons, i mean its called the Dragon SHAMAN, so i never actually expected to be like a dragon, just like how a cleric isnt like a god. Now i agree that they need some more power, but you could probably grab a decent PrC and be happy. But ya T4 or T5 depending on your OP capabilities.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Tier 5. It gets a fairly low-damage breath weapon that can't be used very often, some minor passive bonuses through auras, a decent lay on hands, and... that's about it. You can attempt a few things, but you don't really have the power to be competent at any of them.

Dragonfire Adept is better, in a counter-intuitive way. It can't really deal damage, but it has access to a surprising amount of battlefield control and debuff stuff. It's probably low T3/high T4.


I always basically gestalted those classes into one and it never got out of hand. Just wrap those classes into one. It's been probably done formally on the homebrew forums long ago.
Pretty much this. I took a stab at it a while back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15167076), and I've seen others.

[Urpriest]

Here's the main issue from my perspective: due to the cooldown, Dragon Shaman's breath weapon is only used one turn per fight. If the reason you're playing a Dragon Shaman is to feel like a dragon-guy, you only get to do that once per fight. Your other actions won't be dragon-themed, or even Dragon Shaman-themed. Instead, they'll be the sort of actions that anyone with 3/4 BAB and decent social skills can do. Basically, any class where you spend most of combat behaving like an Expert with almost the same effectiveness is just not a worthwhile class.

[some guy]

A player of mine played one twice (she died and made another dragon shaman). The class had the following house rules in my game:

free Draconic language
access to martial weapons
automatic ranks in Knowledge: Arcane
Lay on Hands as a pathfinder paladin (mercies included)
At level 3 and 7 a Dragon Shaman learns a Least Draconic Invocation.
At level 11 and 15 a Dragon Shaman learns a Lesser Draconic Invocation.
At level 19 a Dragon Shaman learns a Greater Draconic Invocation.

I was toying with the idea of giving Metabreath feats at certain levels (and giving some upgrades to dragon shamans of certain colors). But it worked well (this was in a campaign that went from lvl 4 to 9 and the highest tier was a beguiler).

[Kane0]

Borderline 4-5. Its a support class with very few chances to shine. The good news is that it has a strong base and idea that can be worked with to make it what it was supposed to be.

I have a two or three Dragon Shaman homebrews in the CCCC in my sig. They should all work fine in any game, especially one around the tier 3 mark. Give one a try if you feel up to it.

[Grayson01]

I have played a few Dragon Shamans and always found them fun and never felt like I was not contributing to the party. It's all on the player and how they like to play. What are the other classes in the party?

[Chronos]

Grayson01, what did you actually do with it? You start off every fight with your breath weapon, and then... you wait. What did you do when your initiative came up while you were still waiting?

[Gwendol]

My experience puts it at T4. Auras are neat, breath weapon has support in forms of feats, and the chassis is solid enough to allow for decent regular fighting in between breaths.

[Lans]

Its meh in a lot of areas, the breath weapon is inferior to a warlocks or dfa, its auras are generally worse than marshals or divine mind, its healing ability is worse than a healers, and its divination ability comes a little late, and as a body he is about on par with most other classes.

So he is probably in a similar in the tier list as the rogue or ranger, who is diverse in what they do.

[Metahuman1]

Teir 5, can be optimized as far as Tier 4 though with a serious amount of stress being put on Con and Breath weapon feats. If you can Psi-reform or chaos shuffle extra feats form a few castings of Heroic's, it can wear light armor, have a tone of HP and a medium BAB so with decent str and dex and the feats it can be a no horrible Melee combatant after that.


DFA on the other hand has to work harder at optimizing it's breath weapon but also has skills to give itself an out of combat roll, invocations to further help, and UMD as a class skill. Low Tier 3, medium to high teir 3 and with heavy op tier 2 if you let it get an ability to craft it's own magic gear like a warlock.

[Person_Man]

For what it's worth, it also ranks very poorly in my Niche Ranking system, roughly on par with the Truenamer, Fighter, Knight, and Samurai.

Poor scaling of the auras and breath are definitely a big problem. But like most low-Tier classes, it's primarily an issue of limited selection. All Tier 1-3 classes have broad list of different options to choose from. (Although for some of them, it doesn't "kick in" until a certain level - Wildshape Ranger gets a ton of Wildshape options, but not until ECL 5+).

There are some Tier 4 or lower classes with a "big list" of abilities - Truenamer, Soulborn, Healer, etc. But for the most part, having a wide selection of stuff is required to be Tier 1-3 class.

[Lans]

Hmm... How would you rate it if it was between Bahumat and Tiamat with it getting 5 breath weapons, all the immunities, and abilities from the 5 dragons, and gave it additional auras to include the ones from dragon magic, and allow it to use an additional aura at 5th and 15th?

It shouldn't be any more powerful, but should get more versitility

[Treblain]

I would give it slightly better proficiencies, skills, HD, and breath damage, and then give the player bonus draconic or metabreath feats. Like as many feats as a fighter gets. Or let them choose a smaller number of metabreath feats they can reselect daily. Dragon-related feats are really versatile and flavorful, they're just rarely worth it because feats are so limited.

That saves you a lot of effort from fixing the class from the ground up by using existing material, and it lets the player customize their own character.

[Atypical_Necro]

Thanks for all the input! I decided to transfer some of the better stuff from the Dragonfire Adept to the Dragon Shaman and call it good. We played our first session Sunday and she definitely felt useful in a variety of ways.

Grayson01, the other party members are a generic arcane spellcaster, a generic divine spellcaster (both limited to only their respective type of magic unlike the UA version), and a class called the Feruchemist (designed by Raiki on these very boards). It all worked out well.

Thanks again everyone!