Worst Levels

[TiaC]

What are the worst levels? I'm talking about the ones where leveling up your character doesn't actually feel like increasing their power at all.

I nominate Monk 13. No increase in BAB, saves, or scaling class features. All you get is a few HP, some skill points, and Diamond Soul, a class feature that is often regarded as a disadvantage. (I suppose wholeness of body can heal you for 2 more HP :smallannoyed:)

Truenamer 5 is pretty bad too. You get a some HP, some skill points, and a third 2nd level utterance, which is probably worse than the first two.

[Karnith]

Rogue 20 is another classic terrible level, offering only +1 BAB and +1 to Reflex saves (in addition to HP and skills). It's especially insulting considering that many classes get legitimate capstones at 20th level.

[eggynack]

Paladin 13 is one of the worst. No extra class abilities, no extra spells/day, no save boost, and because it's an odd level, you don't even get an increase in caster level. The only increase is a +1 to BAB, which is marginally better than the rogue's +1 BAB and +1 ref save, if a bit less egregious as a non-capstone. Also, maybe monk 20, as perfect self has a tendency to actively make your character worse, with its granting of outsider weaknesses.

[Snowbluff]

Risen Martyr frakking dies at max level.

Any level of monk will get you targeted and killed in all of my games. :smalltongue:

Odd levels of fighter aren't that great.

Ranger 3 gets endurance, and you would only take it to get to the immensely more powerful level 4.

[Karnith]

Another one: Pale Master 1. It's a caster PrC whose first level doesn't progress spellcasting or give any class features. I quite like the class, but boy does it have a painful start.

[The Oni]

Really though, I don't think anything can top Risen Martyr. Instant permadeath is, by definition, the worst class feature.

[Zweisteine]

Rogue 20, of course. Take three levels of Uncanny Trickster instead. Actually, pretty much anyone with the skill tricks to spare can benefit from it, unless they have a good capstone, like the Factotum does.

Any odd-numbered fighter level except eleventh, and that one barely qualifies (it's an extra attack, nothing more).

Even-numbered Wizard primary prepared caster levels. Odd numbered sorcerer primary spontaneous caster levels (though I play with their casting bumped up to get spells when a wizard does).

The top three ranger levels, though only 18th really gives you nothing nice (19th and 20th give spells and a favored enemy).

Monk 13 doesn't seem to be all that bad. You can just drop your SR at the beginning of the day, and activate it each fight after getting your buffs.

Paladin levels 7 and 13 get you +1 BAB each, and nothing else. Level 17 gets you one more spell per day, +1 BAB, and nothing else. At least 16 gets you an iterative attack and 19 gets you three spells...

[OldTrees1]

13th level tends to be bad except for casters.

[Amphetryon]

Fighter 5 is pretty lackluster, even compared to Fighter 1 - 4.

[nedz]

Monk 13 doesn't seem to be all that bad. You can just drop your SR at the beginning of the day, and activate it each fight after getting your buffs.
SR doesn't work like that. Dropping SR only last for a round, takes a Std action, and provokes. Lets hope you didn't want to get buffed or healed mid combat.

Spell Resistance

A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

[Jurai]

Dragon Compendium's Mountebank 20. You get half-fiend. And dragged to Hell or the Abyss.

[RegalKain]

Rogue 20 is another classic terrible level, offering only +1 BAB and +1 to Reflex saves (in addition to HP and skills). It's especially insulting considering that many classes get legitimate capstones at 20th level.


I've often felt that Rogue 20 should give you Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) I think that'd make taking 20 levels in Rogue and Rogue along a much more tempting matter.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Risen Martyr frakking dies at max level.

Any level of monk will get you targeted and killed in all of my games. :smalltongue:

Odd levels of fighter aren't that great.

Ranger 3 gets endurance, and you would only take it to get to the immensely more powerful level 4.

Good luck trying to find my Invisible fist Dark Moon monk :smalltongue:

[Socksy]

The prerequisites for some prestige classes may make them useless for the first few levels, Blighter (for those without the sourcebook, a Blighter is to a druid what a blackguard is to a paladin) being a particularly bad example of this. You have to lose all 5+ druid levels you previously had... To cast as a 1st level druid with a horribly limited spell selection.

[Arbane]

Really though, I don't think anything can top Risen Martyr. Instant permadeath is, by definition, the worst class feature.

Possibly second-worst?


Dragon Compendium's Mountebank 20. You get half-fiend. And dragged to Hell or the Abyss.

Probably worst.

[ericgrau]

I nominate Monk 13. No increase in BAB, saves, or scaling class features. All you get is a few HP, some skill points, and Diamond Soul, a class feature that is often regarded as a disadvantage. (I suppose wholeness of body can heal you for 2 more HP :smallannoyed:)
Weird, I thought that was the #1 best monk level that you need to hold out for. SR is amazing and the disadvantage is easy to work around. I think people hate monks with such passion that every time there really is an advantage they need to find everything wrong with it and trumpet it on the mountaintops.

I'm going to say wizard 19 (followed closely by 18 and 20). Because even if you did want more 9ths, you have enough insane WBL to buy a staff. At that point you could multiclass into commoner and who would really care? In fairness wizard 17 is pretty sweet though.

Paladin 7 annoys me a little. Hey, lots stop giving you any more class features and only advance the ones you've got. It's not so much weak as it is boring. I played a paladin right after a fighter and my first thought was "Wow, how do you build a character with so few feats? Well, I guess all I do is smite things and pass my saves. Ok then."

[eggynack]

Weird, I thought that was the #1 best monk level that you need to hold out for. SR is amazing and the disadvantage is easy to work around. I think people hate monks with such passion that every time there really is an advantage they need to find everything wrong with it and trumpet it on the mountaintops.
It's easy to work around when doing long duration out of combat buffs, but if you want to buff or heal in combat, the monk needs to take a standard action in combat in order to drop the SR or risk losing the spell. For a class that so often requires short duration buffs it's a problematic thing. Moreover, while every buff and healing spell is going to hit SR (at least to my knowledge) there's a decent number of spells that bypass it. Thus, the SR has the capacity to do more harm than good.

[ericgrau]

Why would you ever want to buff or heal in combat though? It's so bad. For emergencies you can carry items to use on yourself which automatically bypass SR. For haste you should have the boots by 13. The good buffs are the long duration ones specifically because they don't waste a combat action. Standard action buffs usually aren't worth the casting time. They're only worth it if you cast them ahead of time. Typically you should grab a mage armor, a GMW/GMF, maybe a stoneskin and/or other 10min/level for dungeon runs, cast at the entrance.

[limejuicepowder]

I'm going to say wizard 19 (followed closely by 18 and 20). Because even if you did want more 9ths, you have enough insane WBL to buy a staff. At that point you could multiclass into commoner and who would really care? In fairness wizard 17 is pretty sweet though.

Idk, the 2 free spells/known per level, of any level, that the DM can't screw you on, is pretty nice.

Sorcerer 5 may not be the worst in an absolute sense, but it certainly feels awful playing it. The prepped casters are swinging with 3rd level spells, and the group as a whole has finally gotten strong enough to fight some really tough enemies. And you get to plug away with the 2 second level spells you know.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm) often considered the only in-combat healing you should bother to use is SR: Yes and it come online just a little before the monk's SR does. Besides there are tons of buffs that aren't found in normal items, for example Righteous Wrath of the faithful. So yeah under most circumstances SR is more trouble than it's worth for players.

[ericgrau]

Idk, the 2 free spells/known per level, of any level, that the DM can't screw you on, is pretty nice.
Only if you have a mean DM. Otherwise it's at most 7650 gp out of your lolzy budget.

[Sith_Happens]

Another one: Pale Master 1. It's a caster PrC whose first level doesn't progress spellcasting or give any class features. I quite like the class, but boy does it have a painful start.

Seconding this. First time I saw that level I thought "Are you ****ing kidding me?"

[eggynack]

Why would you ever want to buff or heal in combat though? It's so bad. For emergencies you can carry items to use on yourself which automatically bypass SR. For haste you should have the boots by 13. The good buffs are the long duration ones specifically because they don't waste a combat action. Standard action buffs usually aren't worth the casting time. They're only worth it if you cast them ahead of time.
For healing, it's mostly for stabilization purposes, for which I prefer a cure minor wounds. Heal is also nice. As for buffs, basically anything below hours/level could feasibly need to be cast in combat, although 10 minutes/level could cover an adventure. I don't have a perfect standard monk buff list in front of me, though I'm sure that there's stuff that fits in that category. Enlarge person is a possibility, for example.

[Uncle Pine]

I'm not familiar with the Dragon Compendium's Mountebank, but I don't think that it can compete with the Risen Martyr, mainly because the worst thing about it isn't that a Risen Martyr is "blessed" with permadeath as a capstone, but that a risen martyr cannot advance in any class other than risen martyr in order to delay his final ascension. This means that even if you've only took the 1st 0th level of Risen Martyr because a rule-savvy Wizard mindraped you into martyrdom, you're stuck with it.

[Sith_Happens]

Sorcerer 5 may not be the worst in an absolute sense, but it certainly feels awful playing it. The prepped casters are swinging with 3rd level spells, and the group as a whole has finally gotten strong enough to fight some really tough enemies. And you get to plug away with the 2 second level spells you know.

On this note, I nominate Any Spontaneous Caster Except Spirit Shaman 3. Second level spells are an absolutely huge step up from firsts (possibly the biggest such in the game), so you really feel the pain starting to fight things balanced with the expectation that you have them.

[nedz]

Sorcerer 5 may not be the worst in an absolute sense, but it certainly feels awful playing it. The prepped casters are swinging with 3rd level spells, and the group as a whole has finally gotten strong enough to fight some really tough enemies. And you get to plug away with the 2 second level spells you know.

I remember playing a 3.0 Bard, every third level seemed to be just marking time. No new spells known.

[ericgrau]

Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm) often considered the only in-combat healing you should bother to use is SR: Yes and it come online just a little before the monk's SR does. Besides there are tons of buffs that aren't found in normal items, for example Righteous Wrath of the faithful. So yeah under most circumstances SR is more trouble than it's worth for players.
Righteous wrath of the faithful seems incredibly weak for 7th level. Prayer seems just as good and it's 3rd level. Or better if your allies didn't collaborate on deities. Maybe I just haven't seen the decent options before. I mean, I still haven't b/c RWotF is pretty sucky, but maybe there are some other mass buffs out there worth casting in combat besides haste. Almost everything single target I've seen isn't worth the casting time. Or if you're really desperate for utility reasons there's potions, a ring of spell storing, X/day magic items, etc.

It still seems to me a case of the benefits vastly outweighing the nitpicking. Especially when other classes are doing everything they can just to get a barely noticeable bonus on will saves so they aren't disabled, dominated or confused. Or bam, you can suddenly stop half of them with one level.

[eggynack]

Righteous wrath of the faithful seems incredibly weak for the level. Prayer seems just as good and it's 3rd level. Or better if your allies didn't collaborate on deities. Maybe I just haven't seen the decent options before. I mean, I still haven't b/c RWotF is pretty sucky, but maybe there are some other mass buffs out there worth casting in combat besides haste. Almost everything single target I've seen isn't worth the casting time. Or if you're really desperate there's potions, a ring of spell storing, X/day magic items, etc.
Well, prayer then. It is also SR: yes.

[ericgrau]

Ya but you aren't wasting your time on it at that level anymore. You're casting 7th level spells like holy word. Let's see... +1 or +2 to my allies, or make half the monsters cry... Dam, if Timmy didn't have SR this wouldn't be such a tough choice.

[Morcleon]

Righteous wrath of the faithful seems incredibly weak for 7th level. Prayer seems just as good and it's 3rd level. Or better if your allies didn't collaborate on deities. Maybe I just haven't seen the decent options before. I mean, I still haven't b/c RWotF is pretty sucky, but maybe there are some other mass buffs out there worth casting in combat besides haste. Almost everything single target I've seen isn't worth the casting time. Or if you're really desperate for utility reasons there's potions, a ring of spell storing, X/day magic items, etc.

Righteous Wrath of the Faithful gives an extra attack ala Haste, as well as a +3 morale to attack and damage. Also, it's a 5th level spell. :smallconfused:

[ericgrau]

Well my search led me to complete divine so I didn't notice that it was 5th elsewhere. Still at level 13 you could be casting 7ths and the extra attack requires deity synchronization.

The thought that I haven't seen decent short duration high level buff spell options makes me somewhat suspicious of claims that they happen all the time. Maybe with some book digging someone will show me a bunch, but the first example requiring special circumstances and even then being so-so isn't boding well.

EDIT: Nor did I realize that the SpC version doesn't require deity synchronization. It also has a higher bonus. So the spell seems ok. But I never heard of it before until this day.

EDIT 2: I did a search of 5th to 8th level mass buffs from all classes in all books. I got 18 results. 9 were decent but not spectacular in-combat buffs. Including RWotF. Any particular class might have half of those. I'm still suspicious that this is contrived nit picking and not in fact common.

[OldTrees1]

I've often felt that Rogue 20 should give you Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) I think that'd make taking 20 levels in Rogue and Rogue along a much more tempting matter.

Sarcasm on this forum usually uses blue in order to communicate tone over the internet.

If you were serious: Rogues need Hide in Plain Sight at a much earlier level than 20.

[Snowbluff]

Good luck trying to find my Invisible fist Dark Moon monk :smalltongue: You mean the one who stepped on a bunch of caltrops in the wood mill? Not to mention the million and a half ways to subvert concealment. I won't even put a smalltongue after this, since I can't have all of the new/low OP players I play with think it can work. It'd set a bad example. :l




Even-numbered Wizard primary prepared caster levels. Odd numbered sorcerer primary spontaneous caster levels (though I play with their casting bumped up to get spells when a wizard does).

They get new spells at those levels.

[DarkSonic1337]

Really though, I don't think anything can top Risen Martyr. Instant permadeath is, by definition, the worst class feature.

Well there are the two ghost classes in ghost walk Eidolon and Eidoloncer. Not only are they already dead, but they pass on at their caps (as in they can't be resurrected ever either) iirc.

[RegalKain]

Sarcasm on this forum usually uses blue in order to communicate tone over the internet.

If you were serious: Rogues need Hide in Plain Sight at a much earlier level than 20.

Oh I wasn't being sarcastic, and I agree they could use it at a much lower level, I just thought it'd be something nice to give them for sticking around for 20 levels? I've always thought it odd that there's almost no incentive to stick with a single class for 20 levels. Other then maybe ease, I mean really how many base classes have superb 20th levels? Out of how many that it's just straight up better in every way to branch out and prestige.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Warblade has the hest capstone (for it's archetype), there are really few things that are better at "hitting things with a pointy stick" than Warblade 20, Eternal Blade 10 being one of them.

[OldTrees1]

Oh I wasn't being sarcastic, and I agree they could use it at a much lower level, I just thought it'd be something nice to give them for sticking around for 20 levels? I've always thought it odd that there's almost no incentive to stick with a single class for 20 levels. Other then maybe ease, I mean really how many base classes have superb 20th levels? Out of how many that it's just straight up better in every way to branch out and prestige.

I think the Rogue Special ability list should be expanded, have Special abilities granted earlier and have the Capstones (18th-20th level) greatly improve those special abilities.

[137beth]

Even-numbered Wizard primary prepared caster levels. Odd numbered sorcerer primary spontaneous caster levels (though I play with their casting bumped up to get spells when a wizard does).

I disagree in the case of spontaneous casters--you may not get a new spell level, but more spells known is still a big deal.

[Hurnn]

No fighter 3??? I am shocked.

[eggynack]

No fighter 3??? I am shocked.
Well, you do get two +1's to saves, which makes it better than stuff like rogue 20 and paladin 7/13. Still, it's pretty far down there. Fighter 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, and 19 are much worse though, as those levels don't even get those save boosts. It's those subtle differences that turn a level from incredibly horrible to actually on the worst level list.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Righteous Wrath of the Faithful gives an extra attack ala Haste, as well as a +3 morale to attack and damage. Also, it's a 5th level spell. :smallconfused:


Well my search led me to complete divine so I didn't notice that it was 5th elsewhere. Still at level 13 you could be casting 7ths and the extra attack requires deity synchronization.

The thought that I haven't seen decent short duration high level buff spell options makes me somewhat suspicious of claims that they happen all the time. Maybe with some book digging someone will show me a bunch, but the first example requiring special circumstances and even then being so-so isn't boding well.

EDIT: Nor did I realize that the SpC version doesn't require deity synchronization. It also has a higher bonus. So the spell seems ok. But I never heard of it before until this day.

EDIT 2: I did a search of 5th to 8th level mass buffs from all classes in all books. I got 18 results. 9 were decent but not spectacular in-combat buffs. Including RWotF. Any particular class might have half of those. I'm still suspicious that this is contrived nit picking and not in fact common.

The spell is much better in the hands of a DMM: Persist Cleric (which deviates the whole lowering SR thing). Persisting a decent buff to hit and damage with a rarer bonus type, with extra attacks for all is never a bad thing.

[Grayson01]

I've often felt that Rogue 20 should give you Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) I think that'd make taking 20 levels in Rogue and Rogue along a much more tempting matter.

Doesn't rouge 20 also give you one more Rouge Talent?

[Karnith]

Doesn't rouge 20 also give you one more Rouge Talent?
Nope, that would be Rogue 19. Rogue 20 offers no class features (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm).

[AttilaTheGeek]

I'd like to nominate Sorcerer 2. For such an early level in a core class, all you get is one extra 1st-level spell known and a +1 to BAB and Will.

[eggynack]

I'd like to nominate Sorcerer 2. For such an early level in a core class, all you get is one extra 1st-level spell known and a +1 to BAB and Will.
I think you mean one extra 1st level spell/day, and also a cantrip/day and known. It's certainly not the best level out there, but I don't think that it's really in the running for worst level, standing as it does with classes that give both less class features and less statistical bonuses, simultaneously.

[Metahuman1]

Risen Martyr frakking dies at max level.

Any level of monk will get you targeted and killed in all of my games. :smalltongue:

Odd levels of fighter aren't that great.

Ranger 3 gets endurance, and you would only take it to get to the immensely more powerful level 4.

But why pick on the Tash players like that? Or the guy that's just dipping it for two levels for feats and iterative's for his Totemist?

[Telonius]

Commoner 5 is pretty harsh. :smallbiggrin: (Not sure if it counts, being an NPC class and all...)

[Yawgmoth]

Another one: Pale Master 1. It's a caster PrC whose first level doesn't progress spellcasting or give any class features. I quite like the class, but boy does it have a painful start. Fortunately, Pale Master 1 is so bad that it's also an amazingly easy fix: make it a 9 level PrC.

Also LOL @ people saying that SR is a detriment at all ever. Do you guys not realize that it affects enemy spells too? And that by preventing said enemy spells from affecting you, you're even less likely to fall into the edge cases when in-combat healing is necessary? Not to mention that if you're that worried about it, your caster buddy can take Arcane Mastery (a feat everyone who plans on casting SR: Yes spells at enemies should have) and beat your SR every time.

[Amphetryon]

Fortunately, Pale Master 1 is so bad that it's also an amazingly easy fix: make it a 9 level PrC.

Also LOL @ people saying that SR is a detriment at all ever. Do you guys not realize that it affects enemy spells too? And that by preventing said enemy spells from affecting you, you're even less likely to fall into the edge cases when in-combat healing is necessary? Not to mention that if you're that worried about it, your caster buddy can take Arcane Mastery (a feat everyone who plans on casting SR: Yes spells at enemies should have) and beat your SR every time.

It is apparently your experience that SR that is always on is never a problem. Congratulations on that. I can assure you, it's been a problem in games I've been in, from both sides of the DM screen. Forcing your allies to burn a Feat in order to be able to keep you from dying isn't what many of us would call a sound tactic, particularly given the huge number of offensive Spells which simply do not care at all about SR.

[Snowbluff]

But why pick on the Tash players like that? Or the guy that's just dipping it for two levels for feats and iterative's for his Totemist?

I let Tash get the feat and have it stack with the number zero without monk levels. A totemist could take levels in Unarmed Swordsage.

[Yawgmoth]

It is apparently your experience that SR that is always on is never a problem. Congratulations on that. I can assure you, it's been a problem in games I've been in, from both sides of the DM screen. Forcing your allies to burn a Feat in order to be able to keep you from dying isn't what many of us would call a sound tactic, particularly given the huge number of offensive Spells which simply do not care at all about SR. Well then I will assure you that you're a supreme outlier, because in the 20 years I've been playing this game, having magic resistance/SR has only ever been a boon. As I said (and you promptly ignored), Arcane Mastery is not "burning" a feat; it's a must-have for any caster with offensive spells. I don't know where you're getting the idea that there's a lot of spells that are both offensive and SR: No either; not even a quarter of the existing spell level 6+ spells (which is what you're using at 13+) are SR: No and most of those are summoning spells, utility/noncombat spells or, shockingly, buff spells.

This of course also ignores the fact that buffing up is almost always going to happen before combat or not at all barring some very extraordinary circumstances (since the good buffs all last 10m/1h per CL), and how laughably bad of an idea it is to waste your caster's turn healing when he could instead be killing/disabling what harms you. You're arguing that because of an outlier within an outlier of edge cases, this thing is bad. Your argument is akin to saying that because fire might burn down your house, heat is a bad thing.

[Xaktsaroth]

Fighter 19 is the worst level for 2 reasons:

1) You only get +1 Bab and 2 + Int skills.
2) You took 18 levels of fighter to get there.

At least the dead level in Pale Master opens up into a useful PrC, Fighter 19 leads you to the sad place where they tip over small children and kick puppies, where gangs of samurai and truenamers roam free, trying to terrorize the populace, but lacking the mechanics to so. Their attempts are usually foiled by a moderate northern breeze, or tripping over one of the children they tipped over. You don't want to go there! :P

[georgie_leech]

Fighter 19 is the worst level for 2 reasons:

1) You only get +1 Bab and 2 + Int skills.
2) You took 18 levels of fighter to get there.

At least the dead level in Pale Master opens up into a useful PrC, Fighter 19 leads you to the sad place where they tip over small children and kick puppies, where gangs of samurai and truenamers roam free, trying to terrorize the populace, but lacking the mechanics to so. Their attempts are usually foiled by a moderate northern breeze, or tripping over one of the children they tipped over. You don't want to go there! :P

Be fair, terrorizing the non-fear-immune populace is one of the only things a Samurai can do. :smalltongue:

[Big Fau]

Well then I will assure you that you're a supreme outlier, because in the 20 years I've been playing this game, having magic resistance/SR has only ever been a boon. As I said (and you promptly ignored), Arcane Mastery is not "burning" a feat; it's a must-have for any caster with offensive spells. I don't know where you're getting the idea that there's a lot of spells that are both offensive and SR: No either; not even a quarter of the existing spell level 6+ spells (which is what you're using at 13+) are SR: No and most of those are summoning spells, utility/noncombat spells or, shockingly, buff spells.

A good number of offensive Conjuration spells are both SR:No and quite powerful. I've personally never played a Wizard with Arcane Mastery (I tend to stick to buffs/No Save no SR spells, rarely ever using SR: Yes at all), and I know plenty of people who wouldn't consider the feat a must-have.

And the spells don't have to be level 6+. The low level ones work fine. There's a nice list of SR:No, no Save spells out there somewhere. Orb of Fire, for example, is quite good at what it does.

[Amphetryon]

Well then I will assure you that you're a supreme outlier, because in the 20 years I've been playing this game, having magic resistance/SR has only ever been a boon. As I said (and you promptly ignored), Arcane Mastery is not "burning" a feat; it's a must-have for any caster with offensive spells. I don't know where you're getting the idea that there's a lot of spells that are both offensive and SR: No either; not even a quarter of the existing spell level 6+ spells (which is what you're using at 13+) are SR: No and most of those are summoning spells, utility/noncombat spells or, shockingly, buff spells.

This of course also ignores the fact that buffing up is almost always going to happen before combat or not at all barring some very extraordinary circumstances (since the good buffs all last 10m/1h per CL), and how laughably bad of an idea it is to waste your caster's turn healing when he could instead be killing/disabling what harms you. You're arguing that because of an outlier within an outlier of edge cases, this thing is bad. Your argument is akin to saying that because fire might burn down your house, heat is a bad thing.

So, none of your casters ever Summoned, or used self-buffs, or BFC spells? Because all of those are offensive spells, they just don't do direct damage (or do it as a rider effect). I didn't "ignore" your comment on Arcane Mastery, I disagreed with it; there's a difference.

A for "supreme outlier," I've apparently not only been playing with different gamers than you in the past (30+) years, but have also been reading different forums than you have, as most of the commentary on Spells and SR that I've read has been essentially in line with my earlier commentary and experience.

[HaikenEdge]

A good number of offensive Conjuration spells are both SR:No and quite powerful. I've personally never played a Wizard with Arcane Mastery (I tend to stick to buffs/No Save no SR spells, rarely ever using SR: Yes at all), and I know plenty of people who wouldn't consider the feat a must-have.

And the spells don't have to be level 6+. The low level ones work fine. There's a nice list of SR:No, no Save spells out there somewhere. Orb of Fire, for example, is quite good at what it does.

Or Solid Fog, Obscuring Mist, Web... There are a lot of spells with SR: No which will still make its victims suck. Honestly, SR on your enemies is rarely ever an obstacle to a caster who has a reasonably versatile spell selection, or is just resourceful enough to affect the environment instead of a target with SR, since the environment generally does not have SR.

[Xaktsaroth]

Be fair, terrorizing the non-fear-immune populace is one of the only things a Samurai can do. :smalltongue:

Samurai: "I'm intimating you, guys! The rules say you have to be scared of me! Stop LAUGHING! :smallfurious:"

[Drelua]

With all the talk about Monks, I'm surprised no one mentioned Monk 17. Your BAB and saves don't improve, and the only class features you get are basically useless. Timeless Body won't come up in most games, and Tongue of the Sun and Moon is just weird. If you wanna have a conversation with a lizard, you've come to the right place, but otherwise it's worthless. Wizards are getting 9th level spells, and you're breaking down language barriers, which casters have been doing since level 1 with comprehend languages.

[georgie_leech]

Samurai: "I'm intimating you, guys! The rules say you have to be scared of me! Stop LAUGHING! :smallfurious:"

Seems (http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/327/9/9/Samurai_II_by_Hideyoshi.jpg) legit. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885)

[SowZ]

Possibly second-worst?



Probably worst.

For the character itself, Risen Martyr has a good capstone. Just not the player.

[Metahuman1]

I let Tash get the feat and have it stack with the number zero without monk levels. A totemist could take levels in Unarmed Swordsage.

But your still picking on the guy who just wants to be Fistbeard Beardfist. :smallwink:


Also, I'd like to nominate every fighter level that doesn't get a fighter bonus feat.

[TuggyNE]

Also LOL @ people saying that SR is a detriment at all ever. Do you guys not realize that it affects enemy spells too? And that by preventing said enemy spells from affecting you, you're even less likely to fall into the edge cases when in-combat healing is necessary? Not to mention that if you're that worried about it, your caster buddy can take Arcane Mastery (a feat everyone who plans on casting SR: Yes spells at enemies should have) and beat your SR every time.

SR applies to essentially all buff and healing spells. It does not apply to all offensive spells, and it does not apply to any weapon attacks or mundane energy or whatever else; because of this, the majority of damage taken is likely to be from sources that do not care about your SR.

Suggesting that Arcane Mastery can make your SR a non-issue for a friendly caster has its own downside, too, namely that what a friendly caster can do, so can an unfriendly one. Congratulations, you've spent a class feature to make your allies and enemies spend a feat ignoring it. Don't you feel special.

1
All that said, I do think SR can be a benefit on the whole; however, it's not unmitigatedly good, but a cost/benefit tradeoff, and it works best in general if you are yourself a caster and can thus ignore your own SR for free. Of course, anyone taking Monk 13 is not likely to be enough of a caster to make any difference.

[Rubik]

Doesn't rouge 20 also give you one more Rouge Talent?Nope! It does give you the Powder Puff ability, though, which helps makeup for the fact that you haven't covered all your bases yet.

[Pex]

Pathfinder level 2 Sorcerer

All you get is another 0 level spell known and one more 1st level spell slot.

Third level can't arrive fast enough when you get another 1st level spell known, your first bloodline bonus spell, and your first bloodline power. There you are stuck at 2nd level longing for it.

[Hytheter]

Pathfinder level 2 Sorcerer

All you get is another 0 level spell known and one more 1st level spell slot.

Third level can't arrive fast enough when you get another 1st level spell known, your first bloodline bonus spell, and your first bloodline power. There you are stuck at 2nd level longing for it.

Ah, but you also get +1 BAB and +1 Will Save :P

[Nihilarian]

A note on getting Endurance from Ranger: as bad as the feat is there are some really nice feats that require it. So it's not that bad.

[Sith_Happens]

New candidate: Every Epic Mystic Theurge level except 6n+10. Strictly worse than an actual Wizard or Cleric level.