Insane multiclassing

[Akolbi]

I play pathfinder, which highly discourages multiclassing. I made a mystic theurge, and i had a player who was stunned by the complexity. So, i decided that I wanted to see if there was a way to make the most complex multiclass possible viable.

So, my question is, using the 3.5 ruleset, is it possible to make a viable 20th lvl character, with 20 classes, use whatever materials you want, i figured that if anyone can do it, it would be you playgrounders.

[Blackhawk748]

Well, Fighter is in there because extra feats are nice, Binder needs to be in there because if you snag Imp Binding you get a ton of versatility, other than that i think this would have to be a martial build because your casting would suck hard.

[vhfforever]

It is indeed possible. I recall a post I made several years ago wondering what the highest possible caster level could be using only 1 level in each class; and I think the build that came out finally still had 8th or 9th level spells with no Beholder Mage / Ur Priest shenanigans.

For the life of me, I can't remember what it was off the top of my head...but it's out there and a possibility.

[OldTrees1]

People always answer these threads with the 9th level spells caster or the Xd6 Sneak Attacker. What can be done with a warrior kind of build?

[KillianHawkeye]

People always answer these threads with the 9th level spells caster or the Xd6 Sneak Attacker. What can be done with a warrior kind of build?

Warrior is easy, just pick all Full BAB classes.

[vhfforever]

There's enough out there to end up with 19 or 20 BAB and insane saves if you don't use partial bonuses

Fighter, Duskblade, Ranger, Barbarian, Hexblade, Swashbuckler, Warblade, Crusader each at 1 will be able to get you into the PrC's that you need to get you into further PrC's. Then, you just build on top of that frame to wherever you want with whatever else gets you +1 BAB at first level.

Heck, use the Sneak Attack Fighter to qualify for Craven and add on top of the damage you'll be dealing from there.

[OldTrees1]

Warrior is easy, just pick all Full BAB classes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there more to a warrior than BAB (+16 BAB is not much of a benefit over +11 BAB and +5 attack)? Are not Warriors defined by their class features and feats?

Also are not warriors more than mere damage optimizing thought experiments?

[eggynack]

There's enough out there to end up with 19 or 20 BAB and insane saves if you don't use partial bonuses

You'd get even better saves with the fractional save rules, with the theoretical maximum for any one save increasing from 40 to 50, though I don't know how plausible it is to find a build of 20 separate classes that all have a particular good save.

[EugeneVoid]

Take Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun I think) and it will give you Sorc casting = to your HD, bam instant caster.

[vhfforever]

Take Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun I think) and it will give you Sorc casting = to your HD, bam instant caster.

Duskblade gives you DL1, Practiced Spellcaster would lift that to 5 then...and there are several PrC's that have entry based solely off of CL and not spells you are capable of casting.

[Urpriest]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there more to a warrior than BAB (+16 BAB is not much of a benefit over +11 BAB and +5 attack)? Are not Warriors defined by their class features and feats?

Also are not warriors more than mere damage optimizing thought experiments?

A lot of nice warrior stuff can be gotten through a one level dip, though. Albeit most of the nice defensive abilities take two levels.

[Dr. Azkur]

Go Sorcerer, dropping your familiar for metamagic or something. Enter your first prestige class, preferably one that allows very early entry (even if not intended) which doesn't lose CL, then put a level in every prestige class that advances CL at first level (If you like the second level of one and it doesn't lose CL then go for it, but that's one class less in your repertoire).

[Schizek]

If you really want complex character, build one with triple spell casting and binder.

Sorcerer 1 /Binder 2/ Anima Mage 7/Nar Demon Bringer 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 7

Feats:
Iron Will from magical location Complete Scoundrel 2,5k
Precocious Apprentice to enter early into Anima Mage
Improve Binding for early entry in Anima Mage
2x Practice Spellcaster to boost Sorcerer caster lvl
Extend Spell, Persistent Spell
Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell

Sorcerer casting like 9lvl, caster lvl 17
Binder like 9+ 2 Improve Binding(2 Vestiges)
Ur-Priest, Cleric Spells like 20lvl with caster lvl around 30 hard to calculate
Nar Demon Bringer - access to 8 lvl arcane Spells, caster lvl 23?

[AugustNights]

There was a thread in which Curmudgeon posted an all 1-level build that was a pretty respectable combat-rogue, which he called Stretch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12282966&postcount=16).

It's only up to L.10, but I've played around with expanding it out to 20, and have found a few fun little finishers for it. Right now I'm looking at the following for levels 11-20 in order:

Barbarian (Lion Totem)/Master of Masks/Swordsage/Shadow Thief of Amn/Psychic Rogue/Psychic Warrior/Warblade/Exotic Weapons Master/Sonokineticist/Lasher


You could also do some fun things with Ur Priest, Beholder Mage, and Tainted Sorcerer/Scholar and a bunch of prestige classes that buff spell progressions.

[Dr. Azkur]

If you really want complex character, build one with triple spell casting and binder.

Sorcerer 1 /Binder 2/ Anima Mage 7/Nar Demon Bringer 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 7

Feats:
Iron Will from magical location Complete Scoundrel 2,5k
Precocious Apprentice to enter early into Anima Mage
Improve Binding for early entry in Anima Mage
2x Practice Spellcaster to boost Sorcerer caster lvl
Extend Spell, Persistent Spell
Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell

Sorcerer casting like 9lvl, caster lvl 17
Binder like 9+ 2 Improve Binding(2 Vestiges)
Ur-Priest, Cleric Spells like 20lvl with caster lvl around 30 hard to calculate
Nar Demon Bringer - access to 8 lvl arcane Spells, caster lvl 23?

You can't take practiced spellcaster for the same class twice.
This is nice although I'd drop a level of anything and go one forth with anima mage. 9th level spells are just too sexy to neglect them like that.

Wait a second!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1aDlN6TJ6w) Are you using Practiced Spellcaster to boost spellcasting as if you were taking a level (4 levels actually) in the class in which you apply it?? Cause that is NOT how it works. (I'm asking, it's not a rhetorical question, I'm just having a little trouble to see through the build)

[nedz]

The most Insane multiclassing build has to be A1 / B1 / C1 / D1 / E1 / F1 / X3 which trips over the favoured class rule for a multiclassing penalty of 120%,
where A1 / B1 / C1 / D1 / E1 / F1 / X2 was just fine.

[Jeff the Green]

You could probably manage a decent skill monkey, albeit one with basically no BAB. Changeling rogue/factotum/binder/thug fighter/incarnate/chameleon/... Proceed with PrCs, dip swordsage and warblade at appropriate levels. Monk, mystic wildshape (for fast movement) ranger, cloistered cleric, marshal, and some others would work depending on stats.

[Socksy]

Okay, let's try this. May I offer you a cheese sandwich?

Let us assume we have enough cool gear and/or friendly wizards willing to cast permanency on us to get all the required skill points.

Getting a CE Duergar male to start with, so:
ECL +1
Level 1: Wizard.
Feats: Precocious apprentice (any arcane school)
Level 2: Psion.
He can now manifest Invisibility (racial) and cast a 2nd level spell. Spell-like abilities count as spells for the purpose of determining whether a character can enter a prestige class (p.72, Complete Arcane), so by introducing magic/psionics transparency, the Duergar's Invisibility racial ability should qualify as a second-level power for these purposes.
Level 3: Cerebromancer.
Feat: Toughness.
Level 4: Cleric.

The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower
Shamelessly abusing this, he is now able to cast second-level Divine spells by trading out Arcane spells for healing. (Well, inflicting.)
Level 5: Mystic Theurge.
(When choosing the Arcane class to level up to determine spells per day, we will choose Cerebromancer in order to get the bonus PP too. Yay for rules abuse! If it's allowed, we're grabbing all the CL possible from Theurge abuse from here on in.)
Level 6: Warlock.
Feat: Great Fortitude.
Level 7: Eldritch Theurge.
Level 8: Shadowmind.
Level 9: Eunuch Warlock.
Feat: Energy substitution (Fire)
Level 10: Alienist.
Level 11: Blood Magus.
Level 12: Elemental Savant.
Feat: Skill Focus: (Knowledge (Religion)).
Level 13: Mindbender.
Level 14: Contemplative.
Level 15: Divine Oracle.
Feat: Insightful reflexes.
Level 16: Wilder. (Which is almost useless, especially for a race with average CHA of 6, but PP are able to be used for any power regardless of which class they came from, and Overchannel is useful.)
Level 17: Fighter.
Feat: Weapon Specialisation (Ray)
Level 18: Barbarian (Good with Wilder).
Feat: Still spell.
Level 19: Planar Champion, assuming this caster-heavy combo actually gets base attack +6. Otherwise, Ranger.

There we have it!
(Level 20, if you want one not caused by level adjustments, could be Ninja. Because ninja.)

[DarkSonic1337]

(When choosing the Arcane class to level up to determine spells per day, we will choose Cerebromancer in order to get the bonus PP too.

Casting advancing prestige classes do not work that way. Cerebremancer has no caster (or rather manifesting) progression to advance, only a class feature that advances other classes' spellcasting and manifesting progressions.

You cannot advance a Theurge progression (or advance another prestige classes' spellcasting advancement for that matter, though there is no point in trying to do so)

[Socksy]

Casting advancing prestige classes do not work that way. Cerebremancer has no caster (or rather manifesting) progression to advance, only a class feature that advances other classes' spellcasting and manifesting progressions.

You cannot advance a Theurge progression (or advance another prestige classes' spellcasting advancement for that matter, though there is no point in trying to do so)

Dammit, I was hoping nobody would object to my Theurge abuse.:smalltongue:

[Rubik]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15814948&postcount=6

[Schizek]

Wait a second!!! Are you using Practiced Spellcaster to boost spellcasting as if you were taking a level (4 levels actually) in the class in which you apply it?? Cause that is NOT how it works. (I'm asking, it's not a rhetorical question, I'm just having a little trouble to see through the build)

That way is complicated.

Nar Demonbinder is a class with own spellcasting in range 5-8 spell level.
Nar Demonbinder caster level is Sorcerer Caster Level+ Nar Demonbringer levels.

Ur-Priest can calculate its caster level as Nar Demonbinder+ UR Pierst.

Anyway my build have three different spell list and binding. It is complicated, but you can improve it with:

Sorcerer 1/Binder 1/Anima Mage 5/Prestige Bard 1/Ur-Priest 2/Sublime Chord 1/ Mystic Theurge 7/Anima Mage 2

Cast 9 lvl Arcane and Divine spells with very nice caster lvls
Have 2 visages active with effective binder lvl 10.
Have Divine Metamagic Persistent.
It is Perfectly Legal if you manage skill points and feats, Human preferably.

[Coidzor]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there more to a warrior than BAB (+16 BAB is not much of a benefit over +11 BAB and +5 attack)? Are not Warriors defined by their class features and feats?

Well, everyone gets feats, so there's nothing different there between a Paladin 20 and a Salad 20. :smalltongue:

The problem with most "Warriors" is that they're not really defined by their class features in 3.5 as I recall, aside from the martial adepts and I suppose Duskblade which is sort of a one-trick pony between its primary schtick and spellcasting.


Also are not warriors more than mere damage optimizing thought experiments?

Yes, but, again, the problem is, not much more.

[OldTrees1]

Well, everyone gets feats, so there's nothing different there between a Paladin 20 and a Salad 20. :smalltongue:

The problem with most "Warriors" is that they're not really defined by their class features in 3.5 as I recall, aside from the martial adepts and I suppose Duskblade which is sort of a one-trick pony between its primary schtick and spellcasting.


Yes, but, again, the problem is, not much more.

Maybe it is just me then.
When I design a warrior build I do so by choosing feats (Three Mountain, Improved Dragon Wings, Knockdown, Knockback) and class features(Pounce, Iron Heart Surge, Mighty Swing) then I try to meet the prereqs.

This I why I think an insane multiclassing warrior would select their levels with more care than merely "Has full BAB, will take."

[Invader]

Well, everyone gets feats, so there's nothing different there between a Paladin 20 and a Salad 20. :smalltongue:



Now all I can think about is a paladin fighting a CE Cesar salad...

[Rubik]

Wait a second!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1aDlN6TJ6w) Are you using Practiced Spellcaster to boost spellcasting as if you were taking a level (4 levels actually) in the class in which you apply it?? Cause that is NOT how it works. (I'm asking, it's not a rhetorical question, I'm just having a little trouble to see through the build)Since caster PrCs generally provide caster levels for the classes they're progressing, you should be able to apply Practiced Spellcaster to both the base class and the PrC to gain +4 twice (or 3 times with a base class and 2 PrCs, etc) until your Caster Level = Character Level.

[Coidzor]

Maybe it is just me then.
When I design a warrior build I do so by choosing feats (Three Mountain, Improved Dragon Wings, Knockdown, Knockback) and class features(Pounce, Iron Heart Surge, Mighty Swing) then I try to meet the prereqs.

This I why I think an insane multiclassing warrior would select their levels with more care than merely "Has full BAB, will take."

I'd think of maneuvers as something above and beyond class features, much like spellcasting, for starters.

For another, um. of course. That's the thing. You choose what you want to do and what feats let you do it as the most important part of making a martial character unless you're setting out to make a gish or a martial adept. :smalltongue:

Sorta over-simplifying a glossed over response and making a mountain out of a molehill though. The statement "just take a full BAB class with decent HD" pretty much works as an abstraction because feats are a matter of course.


Now all I can think about is a paladin fighting a CE Cesar salad...

Multiclass Salad is still basically the only term I've come across for describing this sort of build that's not unified by a PrC or central class.

[Urpriest]

Take a look at this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5003.0) Mini-Handbook. Most of the listed classes are martial.

[OldTrees1]

@Codizor
If it was multiple maneuvers I would consider it something else too. However 1 reactive defensive maneuver feels more like a class feature to me. However the point I was making is that the class features of the classes the warrior takes are quite important to the warrior. Some context below.


Sorta over-simplifying a glossed over response and making a mountain out of a molehill though. The statement "just take a full BAB class with decent HD" pretty much works as an abstraction because feats are a matter of course.
The quote was in reference to what I was initially replying to. The exact quote was:

Warrior is easy, just pick all Full BAB classes.

Which implied that the actual classes didn't matter as long as they were Full BAB. I disagree since a 20th level melee warrior without pounce is very different from one that took Barbarian in order to get pounce.

[Coidzor]

@Codizor
If it was multiple maneuvers I would consider it something else too. However 1 reactive defensive maneuver feels more like a class feature to me. However the point I was making is that the class features of the classes the warrior takes are quite important to the warrior. Some context below.


The quote was in reference to what I was initially replying to. The exact quote was:


Which implied that the actual classes didn't matter as long as they were Full BAB. I disagree since a 20th level melee warrior without pounce is very different from one that took Barbarian in order to get pounce.

I suppose that makes sense, though you have to burn a feat to get one maneuver without a host of them, which I did overlook. :/ Sorry.

On the other hand, Pounce is a matter of course on Barbarians and you're not taking 20 levels in martial classes without Barbarian, even in the glut of 3.5 base classes.

[TuggyNE]

It is Perfectly Legal if you manage skill points and feats, Human preferably.

Seems legit. :smallamused:

[Akolbi]

Seems legit. :smallamused:

yeah...that phrase always gets me a little nervous...

[bekeleven]

Since caster PrCs generally provide caster levels for the classes they're progressing, you should be able to apply Practiced Spellcaster to both the base class and the PrC to gain +4 twice (or 3 times with a base class and 2 PrCs, etc) until your Caster Level = Character Level.

Wouldn't that not work for the same reasons that theurge stacking (above) didn't?

Also, random thought: Is "benefits applied in most beneficial order" ever actually stated, or is it just something people tend to play with? Because if you throw practiced spellcaster before your PrC casting progression you could pass your level. Not that doing so makes sense...

[Rubik]

Wouldn't that not work for the same reasons that theurge stacking (above) didn't?There's nothing stopping it from working, and there's nothing broken about it. You're still capped at CL = ChL, and feats are seriously valuable commodities (unless you're a mundane in Pathfinder, anyway), so...