[PF] How much of a mistake?

[Azreal]

One of my players will be dipping in and out of the party because he can't make it every week, so I decided to have fun with his character and I'm letting him just take a Prestige from level 1. So he's gonna be a Mystic Theruge, level 1 and I'm giving him the level one abilities of an Oracle and a Sorc.
(In example he's getting a Bloodline and it's level one stuff from a Sorc class and he's getting a mystery and a curse from an Oracle class, then the +spell casting level as normal for an MT, only having access to spells per day and spells known as a normal level one character of each class.)


How much of a mistake did I make in this?

[Scots Dragon]

http://popculturepoems.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/618px-over_9000_vector_by_vernacular.jpg

[Azreal]

I'm kinda scared that you couldn't even find the words to explain how bad and immediately resorted to one picture (A THOUSAND WORDS!) instead.

[watchwood]

I'd at least make him take 1 level each of Sorc and Oracle. Up to you though, I suppose.

Also, depending on the campaign setting his character could always keep busy with Pathfinder's Downtime rules. Side adventures would keep him leveled with the rest of the party if he falls behind on experience, and he could start a business or something and use the income from that to keep up in terms of Wealth.

[Drachasor]

It's pretty bad. The biggest thing about spellcasters is their spells, and you just gave someone essentially a gestalt as far as spells go (again, the #1 feature). So they'll be OP and the other players will think it is unfair.

[Saidoro]

First off, that's not actually how the mystic theurge works. It only progresses spellcasting, not all the other features, so he shouldn't be getting any bloodlines or revelations. Second, even if he only has the spellcasting that is by far the most powerful feature either class gets. You're very nearly giving full progression in two classes simultaneously.

[Azreal]

He's only gonna be around like maybe every other week and he won't be leveling as fast as the others either, so eventually he's gonna be even with them, just starting out a lot stronger at first.

[Azreal]

First off, that's not actually how the mystic theurge works. It only progresses spellcasting, not all the other features, so he shouldn't be getting any bloodlines or revelations. Second, even if he only has the spellcasting that is by far the most powerful feature either class gets. You're very nearly giving full progression in two classes simultaneously.

I do understand how the Mystic Theurge actually works though. I made it very clear to the other Main Players that he's gonna be really strong, but they would eventually outstrip or at least match him because since he won't be there every week (of his own choice) he doesn't get experience like the others will. Now if he was gonna be there every week I wouldn't even have considered this.

I mostly just wanted to know exactly what I did to myself. lol

[DJroboninja]

Basically, every other week the rest of the party is going to be completely outclassed by the Special Guest Star. Not only does he basically have two classes, they're both casters.

I would just let him be on the same power level as the rest of the party, but have him gain XP along with the rest of the party - he's just off on his own, doing his own thing.

[Saidoro]

Well, that's something. Still, this isn't a very good approach. A better solution would be to just make him use a single class as normal and have him keep up with the party's experience level even when not present.

[Azreal]

Well, that's something. Still, this isn't a very good approach. A better solution would be to just make him use a single class as normal and have him keep up with the party's experience level even when not present.

So should I just make him have to take Oracle/Sorc level ones first and then let him use the MT so he doesn't get all the benefits at once, so he's still strong Guest Star, but he's not over the top?

[Kol Korran]

How wrong it is? Meh, that depends on the party, the seriousness of play, optimization, frequency and other stuff.

To save the trouble though I'd just make him a regular character, and have him "level up" while he isn't with the group, coming back each time with wild tales of his shenanigans. or such. Much easier to manage.

Also, if possible, I'd suggest that his character will add "something extra" to the party, and not take the main roles (such as divine and arcane caster), that ay the people don't need to miss him.

[Slipperychicken]

I'd just level him up with the other players, and say he's having offscreen adventures when he doesn't show up.

I would most likely feel pretty cheated if I was in your group.

[Drachasor]

So should I just make him have to take Oracle/Sorc level ones first and then let him use the MT so he doesn't get all the benefits at once, so he's still strong Guest Star, but he's not over the top?

Why do you want him to be stronger than everyone else?

[Azreal]

Why do you want him to be stronger than everyone else?

It's more a flavor thing for his character in particular.

Each of the characters in this party are going to ascend to Godhood by the end of this campaign and I'm using the Mythic Adventures Pathfinder book to give help them feel like they are approaching Godhood as they play.

The character in Question is very much an Asmodeus and made several deals for power and has started his ascension before the other PCs and will serve as a guide-type character when he does show up. He honestly though will only help them to see if he can trick them into contracts so he has even more say and power in the upcoming Pantheon.

Also they are ascending because the old Gods have grown weary and are stepping down to live out as a mortal, kinda similar to the "Incarnation of Immortality" series by Piers Anthony.

[Drachasor]

It's more a flavor thing for his character in particular.

Each of the characters in this party are going to ascend to Godhood by the end of this campaign and I'm using the Mythic Adventures Pathfinder book to give help them feel like they are approaching Godhood as they play.

The character in Question is very much an Asmodeus and made several deals for power and has started his ascension before the other PCs and will serve as a guide-type character when he does show up. He honestly though will only help them to see if he can trick them into contracts so he has even more say and power in the upcoming Pantheon.

Also they are ascending because the old Gods have grown weary and are stepping down to live out as a mortal, kinda similar to the "Incarnation of Immortality" series by Piers Anthony.

It's not "mostly flavor" if it majorly affects mechanics. You gave in-game reasons for him being more powerful. I do not care about that. Fluff is mutable.

What are you real reasons for having him be more powerful than the other players? You know, the out of game reasons. Have you seriously thought about how the other players will feel about this favortism?

[Zweisteine]

Spellcasting is powerful. Doubled spellcasting is twice as powerful.

The best option, as others have mentioned, is to give him a normal character, and have him level up just as fast as the rest of the party, even when he isn't there. D&D/PF is not a competitive game, so there is no reason he can't be as strong as anyone else.

If the group meets once a week, he's there fully half the time, so you could just pretend he's always there. In other words, when he is there, act as if the character had been present all along.
Or you could say he's off doing solo adventures half the time, but that's hard to work into a story.

There are two easy options:
1. He has as much experience as anyone else. How you explain this in-game is irrelevant. You don't even have to explain it.
2. You make him in NPC when the player isn't there. If the players (or you) don't want you controlling one of them, let the other players control him. If they can't do it together, they can take turns (by session). Just make sure they use the character appropriately (i.e. they don't go "I have another character: I will use this to benefit only my normal character").

[illyahr]

This would actually not do anything. Mystic Theurge adds to spells per day and spells known of their base classes. Since they don't have base classes, nothing would happen.

[Spore]

Inquisitor/Bard dual spellcasting would be fine. Sorc/Oracle is a big mistake.

[Raven777]

Dual Arcane + Divine full progression is very powerful. Basically, it grants you access to every problem solver in the game. You are not a jack-of-all-trades, average at everything. You are the ultimate Swiss army knife, good at everything. Do note that there are legal ways to achieve this within the rules, but they are usually considered being part of the dark side (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MinMaxing). (But the dark side has the best cookies!)

[nedz]

Essentially you are going to have two very different parties, with different strengths, on alternate weeks. What happens when you finish a session mid-combat ?

If I was this player, then I wouldn't be happy about having such an OP character in a party where everyone else was more restricted.

[icefractal]

Spellcasting is powerful. Doubled spellcasting is twice as powerful.Sort of. Not quite as much as you'd think, because he's still limited to casting one spell a round. At low levels, the extra slots are a big benefit, but at high levels they almost don't matter - by the time you get to the third (sometimes second) round, the battle has been won or lost.

That said, Sorcerer and Oracle are already a half-step behind Wizard/Cleric/Druid, so combining those two might be ok. I wouldn't necessarily give them all the mystery/curse/bloodline features at the start though - that's very front loaded, and will be way more powerful for the first level.

But IMO, something like Sorcerer 1/Oracle 1/Mystic Theurge X is not actually overpowered, even as a full party member progressing at the same rate. Because of the spontaneous caster lag, you're one full spell level behind a Wizard or Cleric. You know who else is a spell level behind? A cohort. So you're basically two cohorts glued together - if anything, a little bit weak.

[Perseus]

Ok so this seems like a huge mistake.

The person who isn't going to be there as much shouldn't get more or as much as the other players.

Why not this..

His level is always [Average PC level of Party - 2] (minimum 1)

He can be a Sorcerer that can take spells from any list (Sorcerer or Oracle), technically in 3.5 (not sure about pathfinder) but the rules for spell creation allows a Sorcerer to make any spell into a sorcerer spell as long as they are familiar with it. Not used much, but it is there.

This allows...

1: Player will never be more powerful than the party except for level 1

2: The party won't feel as if you are giving him special treatment and bonuses even when he can't show up but they can.

3: You/Other play don't have to keep track of XP. Just take the average level - 2 and there you go. Less book keeping you know.

or alternatively...

Play the game every other week? And have another game or an off week whenever he can't make it? It sucks when you can make it all the time but someone else can't and yet they get just as much as you do. I'm sympathetic to real life, I have my job and all, but I wouldn't expect special treatment for doing nothing.

[Zweisteine]

The person who isn't going to be there as much shouldn't get as much as the other players.


:mad: NO. :mad:

:smallannoyed:You do not do that.:smallannoyed:

Dungeons and Dragons is NOT a competitive game. It is a cooperative game, and is played for fun. There is not way to win D&D, and the o ly competition between players should be friendly (unless one is an evil spy, I suppose, but even then, it should not be competitive out of character)

The mindset that a player who can not show up as much, or who joins late, or who misses a few sessions should not be a strong as anyone else because they didn't earn it is a mindset that will ruin the game.

D&D is not about "earning" anything. If the players feel like they had to put in unwanted effort into gaining their power, they aren't having fun. This game is about creating a story, not gaining power.

If you play with the goal of having the strongest character, and you have fun, good for you. The only problem is that it probably isn't un for anyone else. Either they think the same way, and whoever isn't strongest is unhappy, or they think more of roleplaying, and your style likely bothers them.

I remember a thread where a player was asking what to do, because his DM (in a group he just joined) said that, because he hadn't earned the levels the other players had, he would be joining the game as a second level character, in a sixth level adventure, and with no special stuff to help him survive. Everyone who spoke in the conversation said either to break the game, or to find a better DM.


No, you should not be giving any extra benefits to a player who shows up less frequently than the others.
Even more so, you should give him no penalties.

[/rant]
[/intense seriousness]

[TypoNinja]

I'm gonna buck the trend and say not so bad. Based on my own experience playing a MT in 3.5, I'm gonna assume PF isnt that much different.

Its already the easiest thurge to get into, so you haven't jumped him up too much by letting him go straight for it, assuming the same early entry tricks work. Combined with choosing Spontaneous casters means hes still getting spell levels at around the right time.

It is more powerful? Most assuredly. Its not quite a gestalt, but close to it.

It'll really depend on how skillful the player is, what his spell choices are. Its two casters for the price of one, that's strong, but a poorly played caster is going to do less than a well played melee attacker.

I'd say the mistake here would be allowing this boon to one player without offering the others similar perks. Why is this special snowflake deserving while the rest of the party gets zilch? How do the rest of your players feel about only one of them getting special house rule goodies?

[Azreal]

It'll really depend on how skillful the player is, what his spell choices are. Its two casters for the price of one, that's strong, but a poorly played caster is going to do less than a well played melee attacker.

I'd say the mistake here would be allowing this boon to one player without offering the others similar perks. Why is this special snowflake deserving while the rest of the party gets zilch? How do the rest of your players feel about only one of them getting special house rule goodies?

Funnily enough his nickname is Snowflake.

The other players were told they can come to me if they have any ideas at all and I'd work with them on it. They were all present when he brought up his idea and none opposed it or even seemed to care that deeply.

On the issue of player skill, I don't expect him to break the game so much as being mostly evocation/creation(healing) with maybe a couple surprises.