[PF] Oracle vs Paladin [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

rollforeigninit

2014-01-26, 04:05 PM

Oracles vary widely depending on Mystery amongst other things. Almost regardless, you will be stronger than Paladin being a full caster vs a partial caster. It would help to know which flavor of Oracle you want.

PF Pallies aren't bad though & Oradins are a thing as well.

So it's CRB, APG & ?

Arbane

2014-01-26, 04:07 PM

A friend is wanting to start a pathfinder game. Starting level 4-5.

Can't decide between Oracle and Paladin. Books are largely limited to the 2 handbooks/players guides.

Thoughts on the classes in the short and long term, party roles and flavor etc

Well, the big advantage of the Paladin is that PF's version of Smite Evil makes them fantastic against 'boss' monsters. The downside is... the Paladin Code. Seems like entirely too many GMs think that because a paladin can fall, they must fall. :smallmad: (They become vastly better if your GM isn't like this, obviously.)

The Oracle gets way-better spell-casting and some nifty mystery powers, and no alignment restrictions, but worse weapons and armor, and is stuck with a curse.

(I'm trying to make a melee oracle for an upcoming game. Hopefully I can make one that can survive.)

Kudaku

2014-01-26, 04:12 PM

I'd be very careful with playing a paladin in any game without talking over the code and alignment with the GM first. That said, the PF paladin is very satisfying to play compared to the 3.5 version. Especially if you primarily want to be a melee character instead of a spellslinger.

Bacchus

2014-01-26, 04:16 PM

I like the battle domain just because I like to melee it up from time to time.
I've looked at the metal domain but the book that is from May not be allowed.

Ancestor, bones, dark tapestry and heavens are all fighting for runner up

As far as curses go. Haunted seems the easiest to deal with and could be cool fluff if the DM throws it around in game instead of just having to take a standard action to get items, which isn't much of a draw back.

Lame is my close second. I really like the fluff of clouded vision but that 30 foot vision is just too much.

phlidwsn

2014-01-26, 04:23 PM

If you're looking at doing anything with the healing role, why settle for peanut butter OR chocolate? Instead take a look at a Oradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365)build.

Bacchus

2014-01-26, 04:27 PM

If you're looking at doing anything with the healing role, why settle for peanut butter OR chocolate? Instead take a look at a Oradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365)build.

I haven't played PF yet but I hear that multiclassing really hurts your character

rollforeigninit

2014-01-26, 04:36 PM

Oradins can be an exception to that rule. You can take Pally 2 and Take the +2 caster level trait for Oracle & just be somewhat behind. I actually opted for a Battle Oracle myself. More or Less the same party role without the Code issues. (never has been an issue in any or my campaigns but I understand it can be.)

Oradins are a judgement call that ultimately depend on where the campaign will probably end up. If it stops at lvl 10 or so you get Divine Grace & Smite Evil which can be cool. That being said, there is a spell In Ultimate Magic which can make you a Paladin Lite if you are LG. If you head to 20 then the capstone is probably worth it.

If you are playing a less paladiny oracle than it probably isn't worth it.

Bacchus

2014-01-26, 04:49 PM

BWR

2014-01-26, 05:10 PM

I haven't played PF yet but I hear that multiclassing really hurts your character

Depends on what you mean by 'hurt'. PF was designed to make single classes more attractive, so you will be giving up certain bonuses by stepping outside that class. 3.x was not actually designed with the intent that multiclassing was supposed to be the best thing (otherwise all these 5/10 level PrCs everyone takes one or two levels of would be just one or two levels), it just ended up that way due to somewhat poor design.

You aren't saddled with penalties for multiclassing, like you are by RAW 3.x, you are just rewarded for sticking to your single class.

rollforeigninit

2014-01-26, 05:23 PM

Since I like the fluff of clouded vision...at 5th level you can see up to 60 feet. Is that still too much of a battlefield hindrance? How would that work thematically. Seems like a hard role to get my head around

Clouded vision isn't a good option. Its quite cool thematically but is awful in a lot of circumstances. That being said if you can get mythic power there's a high level ability that makes you immune to all curses even your own. Then it would be ok. The ability to see is pretty important.

watchwood

2014-01-26, 05:30 PM

I haven't played PF yet but I hear that multiclassing really hurts your character

You pick a favoured class. For each level in a non-favoued class that you take, there's a minor bonus each level that you don't get, but that's it. If you play a half-elf you get the bonus for 2 classes, so it's much less of an issue for them then it would be for most races.

Oradins can be an exception to that rule. You can take Pally 2 and Take the +2 caster level trait for Oracle & just be somewhat behind. I actually opted for a Battle Oracle myself. More or Less the same party role without the Code issues. (never has been an issue in any or my campaigns but I understand it can be.)

I'd play it as 1 or 3 levels of Oracle and the rest Hospitaler Paladin, personally. You get 2 separate channel pools (3 if you feel like dipping a cleric level as well), and most items/feats that boost channeling don't make you specify a pool to boost them with. You'll also have a flipping ton of low level spells to play with, and with a solid Lay on Hands ability as well so you can stay in melee and make people angry for a good long time.

Kudaku

2014-01-26, 06:11 PM

I personally consider Hospitaller Paladin as something of a trap option - your (paladin) channel will be weaker than the vanilla paladin version, your Life Oracle channel will never get above 2D6 at most, and the incredibly slow smite progression is really, really painful - and losing aura of justice to aura of healing is painful.

You do get a significant amount of Channel Charges but the delayed channel progression and the low channel level means they'll only be useful for downtime healing. There's better options available for that.

The one exception is if you want to specialize in channeling feats, but in that case you're much, much better off playing a straight cleric or life oracle.

I had a paladin in my RotRL party play Paladin 1-11 and he regret the archetype choice, eventually retraining it away at level 9.

Arbane

2014-01-26, 07:19 PM

Since I like the fluff of clouded vision...at 5th level you can see up to 60 feet. Is that still too much of a battlefield hindrance? How would that work thematically. Seems like a hard role to get my head around

If your game is mostly dungeon crawls, it shouldn't be too hindering. If there's a lot of open-field battles, it's not too good.

Spore

2014-01-26, 07:47 PM

Clouded Battle Oracle sounds great. The Clouded curse is actually better for a melee oracle than say a Haunted curse. Focus on Str>Con>Cha, get a few Maneuver Masteries and "Skill at Arms" as well as Power Attack and Toughness and enjoy the game with your Easy-to-Use Oracle.

grarrrg

2014-01-26, 08:17 PM

I personally consider Hospitaller Paladin as something of a trap option - your (paladin) channel will be weaker than the vanilla paladin version
...
You do get a significant amount of Channel Charges but the delayed channel progression and the low channel level means they'll only be useful for downtime healing. There's better options available for that.

Hospitaler is better as an Oradin ingredient than it is a straight up Paladin option.
Getting a Channel pool that does _not_ run off of Lay on Hands uses is the big sell, leaving your Lay on Hands free for in-combat use.

And, unless you ARE going for a Channel-focused build, then 'downtime healing' is the preferred use of Oradin channeling anyway, so no real loss there.

your Life Oracle channel will never get above 2D6 at most

Phylactery of Positive Channeling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/phylactery-of-positive-channeling) gives a 2d6 boost to all of your channeling pools.

Bigbeefie

2014-01-26, 08:23 PM

From what I am getting you like to mix it up Melee from time to time....Does that mean you prefer to cast and do other things instead?

I hear the constent praise of the Oradin but I'm really not sold on the hybrid. Battle Healing is not really an effective strategy to begin with. Channel energy is pretty Dull when it comes to it and tends to be a party touch up to conserve your wand charges.

My suggestion is play a Cleric. You have the entire spell list to choose from, you can mix it up in melee, you are a full prepared caster and can change spells and tactics every day. You can heal with the best of them after the fight is over. It just sounds to me you want a full caster who can jump into melee from time to time. A cleric allows you to prepare spells for that or prepare non combat spells without having to succumb to a selective list and a curse.

Kudaku

2014-01-26, 10:13 PM

Hospitaler is better as an Oradin ingredient than it is a straight up Paladin option.
Getting a Channel pool that does _not_ run off of Lay on Hands uses is the big sell, leaving your Lay on Hands free for in-combat use.

And, unless you ARE going for a Channel-focused build, then 'downtime healing' is the preferred use of Oradin channeling anyway, so no real loss there.

That's a fair point, though I still think the Hospitaller sacrifices too much offensive power for primarily downtime healing. If you plan on taking Quick Channel etc for nova healing in-combat that's a different matter of course.

Phylactery of Positive Channeling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/phylactery-of-positive-channeling) gives a 2d6 boost to all of your channeling pools.

The paladin in my party actually found one of these but preferred using his Headband of Alluring Charisma for better saves, smite, skill checks etc. It's a shame both items take the headband slot :smallfrown:

grarrrg

2014-01-26, 10:17 PM

I hear the constent praise of the Oradin but I'm really not sold on the hybrid. Battle Healing is not really an effective strategy to begin with. Channel energy is pretty Dull when it comes to it and tends to be a party touch up to conserve your wand charges.

You are correct.
In-battle healing is NOT a good strategy.
Which makes me think you are missing the point of an Oradin.
The Oradin is a heal-bot for groups that DEMAND a heal-bot, but for players who do NOT want to play a bot.

The Oradin uses Life Link to "take" other character wounds, then uses Lay on Hands (which is a Swift Action to use on yourself) to heal themselves.
The end result is being able to heal EVERYONE, in-combat by only spending a Swift Action now and then.
Yes, sometimes someone will take a big hit, or the whole group will get Fireballed, but most of the time, Life Link+Lay on Hands is plenty.

The Channel Energy is really only a side-effect to most Oradin builds.
Most Life Mystery Revelations are really only decent with a lot of Oracle levels, and (most) Oradins only need as many Oracle levels as there are people to Life Link (you can only have as many Life Link targets as you do Oracle levels).
Putting those two points together makes Channel Energy one of the better Revelations to grab.

Paladins get Channel Energy normally (some archetypes do trade it away).
But the default is 2-uses of Lay on Hands to Paladin-Channel, which is why the Hospitaler becomes a good idea, saving your Lay on hands for in-combat, but still giving you plenty of healing for out-of-combat.

watchwood

2014-01-26, 11:46 PM

Phylactery of Positive Channeling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/phylactery-of-positive-channeling) gives a 2d6 boost to all of your channeling pools.

Mystical Healer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/rite-publishing/general-feats---3rd-party---rite-publishing/mystical-healer) provides a boost to all of your healing abilities that scales with your level.

Hytheter

2014-01-27, 12:31 AM

Hm, it's occuring to me that the Grey Guard prestige class from 3.5 would be pretty solid for an Oradin. Full BAB, advances Smit and Lay on Hands at the full rate, and advances Divine Spellcasting at every even level. Plus it grants you are more... lenient... code of conduct, and the ability to Smite everything indiscriminately.
edit: Oh, I mean it advances the Smite's damage, it actually gives Smites/day at a slower rate since it's based on 3.5...

Overall I think I'd like to brew up a PF Gray Guard. I did always enjoy the class...

Mystical Healer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/rite-publishing/general-feats---3rd-party---rite-publishing/mystical-healer) provides a boost to all of your healing abilities that scales with your level.

Third party though...

Bacchus

2014-01-27, 11:56 PM

For a Battle mystery Oracle I have a few questions.

The Lame condition, Makes my movement speed 20. When calculating armored movement for heavy armor would I count my base speed as 30 thus making it 20 anyway or use the base 20 land speed and take a bigger hit to movement.

I also kind of like the Wasting curse but seeing as how I probably won't be the party face this feels like a cop out.

Second. thoughts on weapon selection. Greatsword for the damage or heavy flail for the trip...and the improved trip line from the mystery.
Heck I even toyed with the idea of (if traits are allowed) being human adopted by elves and taking the racial trait for "Elven" items being martial..so Elven curveblade...but I just don't know that sounds very cheesy

Is there a case for sword and board with an Oracle?

grarrrg

2014-01-28, 12:35 AM

The Lame condition, Makes my movement speed 20. When calculating armored movement for heavy armor would I count my base speed as 30 thus making it 20 anyway or use the base 20 land speed and take a bigger hit to movement.

If your base movement is 30ft. then Lame plus Medium/Heavy armor gives you a movement speed of 15ft.
Until you reach (effective) Oracle Curse level 10, when you can ignore Armor speed penalties.

Second. thoughts on weapon selection. Greatsword for the damage or heavy flail for the trip...and the improved trip line from the mystery.

You don't need a "Trip" weapon to trip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons#wpn-quality-trip) with your weapon.
All you gain is the option to drop your weapon to avoid the backlash of a failed trip attempt.

Bacchus

2014-01-28, 12:44 AM

You don't need a "Trip" weapon to trip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons#wpn-quality-trip) with your weapon.
All you gain is the option to drop your weapon to avoid the backlash of a failed trip attempt.

"You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks."

The way that reads to me is you need a trip weapon. If it was a comma I could see some room to read it with a different context

AkbarTheGreat

2014-01-28, 01:08 AM

If you want to be a close up fighter there is always the Rage Prophet also. Take a few levels of Barbarian and Oracle (and those sexy d12s), Buff yourself before fighting and go in and destroy things. Best part is is that being level 5 oracle makes you immune to the fatigue of Raging, so you can rage cycle easily. Sadly, the Rage Prophet Prc isn't very good other than fluff. Lose a caster level for very little else.